Homosexuality in Golarion


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

4,451 to 4,500 of 5,778 << first < prev | 85 | 86 | 87 | 88 | 89 | 90 | 91 | 92 | 93 | 94 | 95 | next > last >>

Gorbacz wrote:
I'm slowly getting the idea that the problem some folks around here have is that their characteristic of preference is not included. So there stands a hardcore religious person and goes "great, you're including LGBT folks, you're including black/white folks, you're even including democrats and communists, but my Islam/Christianity/etc. is left out".

Just for sake of disputing a claim from earlier and emphasizing that it needs to be said more often...

Holy carp. I -genuinely- had not considered that, vis a vis Pathfinder!

No, seriously - I had to worry about that in another game, purely because the entire theme was around the Judeo-Christian faith, with some extra extrapolation to explain all the other religions, and so there, sure, real world considerations. In most of my fantasy games, there's not much carry over of socio-theological constructs, so it is kinda of mind-blowing to have the simple observation make everything fall in to place, especially regarding this thread.

Gorbacz wrote:
The problem, of course, comes from the fact that some characteristics do translate easily to a fantasy world (gender/sexuality/race/ethnicity/hair color/some political views) and some don't (religion/philosophy/culture/some political views). Having a black lesbian woman of strong libertarian views doesn't really shake the verisimilitude of a fantasy GRRM/Tolkien world much, but if she was to be a Mormon ... and not just "like a Mormon", but full on actual proper names and rites and holy books in your face variety ... Gandalf the Gay feels like something that could happen, Aragorn the Fundamentalist Salafi feels out of place. YMMV, 'f course.

Now that you've broken the concept-wall, I'm thinking it may not be as difficult as it sounds. Gandalf the Gay is certainly a viability, but so is Aragorn the the Fundamentalist Erastilite, or Boromir the Practicing Adherent of Abadar, just to give a few examples. Though it would require wonk-like familiarity with not merely the deities, but in-depth examples and examinations of the full spectrum of the represented faiths, without giving way any more to caricature and parody than is address in, say, sexual orientation or racial representation.

THAT part, I think, would be where it goes into the incredibly difficult zone.

Gorbacz wrote:
And there's no simple solution if somebody thinks that there should be an option to play a Cleric of Buddha or something like that. Adding those elements in would require to build the entire campaign setting around the idea of including real-world religions. There are settings out there that actually pull that off (Ars Magica's Mythic Europe) but they are very, very specialized and specific.

I would like to think that, in many regards, some well-crafted homage/expies would do the job fairly well; Irori manages to cover a lot of the underlying concepts of self-improvement that would be inherent to a more Buddhist outlook, to be sure, but I'm not quite sure if any of the explored deities thus far would, for example, give a valid method of emulation of the Trimurti, or provide a comfortable placement of acceptable ideals for someone of the Abrahamic faiths, made especially more difficult for sake of the implicit desire of monotheism in said faiths. It would have to be in the manner of an Old Testament approach to YHWH, in which the existence of other deities is tacitly acknowledged, after a fashion, but dismissed out of the specific command of holding to/adhering to no other deities and faiths.

Honestly, that would make for an awesome adventure path, if not an outright entire setting in and of itself, of attempting to starve other deities out of existence and the corresponding power-struggles both on the Outer Planes and in the Mortal Realm.

Good thing I have Testament already, and in this specific instance it makes cribbing from In Nomine much, much easier.

Silver Crusade

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Using the already existing gods in Golarion, you could do Old Testamant-type religion where many gods exist but you have a special deal (Covenant) with one.

But you couldn't do monotheism, because all the other gods whose existence you deny would turn up at your church and break your stained-glass windows.

Grand Lodge

Lloyd Jackson wrote:

Just popping in to add my two cents on a few things.

1) I like our first transgendered(?) NPC of note. Seriously, in a world with cursed belts of change-gender more people haven't done this before? I also like the previous one, brief mention in the article about the Grey Maidens. However, I do have some beefs. Why were both men->women? Surely some Brevic maiden has dreamed of being a knight and made the switch.

2) Homesexual relationships outnumbering heterosexual ones? Really? This AP has the most involved/reoccuring NPCs since Jade Regent and so far, and odds aren't looking good for later, and all, well both, are homosexual. Let's spread the love around.

There's been three trans woman NPCs in the adventure paths so far (and a fourth in the NPC Codex). The middle one is Marislova, in Reign of Winter.

Transgender people are not people who want to perform social roles assigned to the other gender. If a Brevic maiden wants to be a knight, that doesn't mean she wants to be a man - it means she's a girl who wants to be a knight (for that matter, in Pathfinder how many social roles are actually traditionally reserved to one gender or another?).

Digital Products Assistant

Removed a few posts and their responses. Please revisit the messageboard rules.

Silver Crusade

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Oh, I'm pretty sure one can play a character that follows the basic rules of some real-world religion/philosophy in Golarion. For example, a character that doesn't kill (except in self-defense), doesn't steal, lie or bed another's wife/husband could pretty much say he's doing all the seven commandments while in a fantasy make-believe world and it makes him/her happy.

However, you must remember, that for some people waving the banner is as, or even more, important. They won't be fine with having a PC that acts like a member of the player's faith would, they want to be able to say loudly "I smite thee in the names of Jesus Christ!". Simply put, they want to have the ability to show off certain artefacts of their belief not just as veiled analogy, but as a direct implementation.

And since the gaming world doesn't provide that, they're getting disgruntled at seeing other groups included. And so it happens, that they turn their frustration against that one group they consider to be "immoral" IRL (because let's face it, "get blacks/women/democrats/cat owners out of Golarion because they are immoral" would never find any major support these days). So it's the LGBT who get the full dose of "get out".


Gorbacz wrote:

Oh, I'm pretty sure one can play a character that follows the basic rules of some real-world religion/philosophy in Golarion. For example, a character that doesn't kill (except in self-defense), doesn't steal, lie or bed another's wife/husband could pretty much say he's doing all the seven commandments while in a fantasy make-believe world and it makes him/her happy.

However, you must remember, that for some people waving the banner is as, or even more, important. They won't be fine with having a PC that acts like a member of the player's faith would, they want to be able to say loudly "I smite thee in the names of Jesus Christ!". Simply put, they want to have the ability to show off certain artefacts of their belief not just as veiled analogy, but as a direct implementation.

And since the gaming world doesn't provide that, they're getting disgruntled at seeing other groups included. And so it happens, that they turn their frustration against that one group they consider to be "immoral" IRL (because let's face it, "get blacks/women/democrats/cat owners out of Golarion because they are immoral" would never find any major support these days). So it's the LGBT who get the full dose of "get out".

Gorbacz, I think you are forgetting that tabletop games are the Devil's playground. Everyone knows that by playing a tabletop game you are signing your soul away to the dark powers below. Direct implementation is the only way to keep the eternal fires of the inferno at bay.

Weird way to step into this thread on my part, but I couldn't resist.


Mikaze wrote:
I'll try to pop back in with more info on these when I get the time tomorrow, but you might be interested in the Ghoran from Inner Sea Bestiary(plant people originally created as food) and Ambrosia Slaad's Skindancers from Wayfinder #7(humanoid shapeshifters with a bit of cephalopod features going on that EASILY could be genderqueer as the norm). Both races are awesome, flavorful, and balanced for players. :)

Thanks (once again) for the plug. I need to make the time to write up their diety, and at least one other (I haven't forgotten, Freehold). I just need to un-bury my copy of Faiths & Avatars for use as a template.


So back onto the topic of Homosexuality in Golarion:

According to Jason at Paizocon, we're getting giraffes in Bestiary IV :DD


Gorbacz wrote:

Oh, I'm pretty sure one can play a character that follows the basic rules of some real-world religion/philosophy in Golarion. For example, a character that doesn't kill (except in self-defense), doesn't steal, lie or bed another's wife/husband could pretty much say he's doing all the seven commandments while in a fantasy make-believe world and it makes him/her happy.

However, you must remember, that for some people waving the banner is as, or even more, important. They won't be fine with having a PC that acts like a member of the player's faith would, they want to be able to say loudly "I smite thee in the names of Jesus Christ!". Simply put, they want to have the ability to show off certain artefacts of their belief not just as veiled analogy, but as a direct implementation.

And since the gaming world doesn't provide that, they're getting disgruntled at seeing other groups included. And so it happens, that they turn their frustration against that one group they consider to be "immoral" IRL (because let's face it, "get blacks/women/democrats/cat owners out of Golarion because they are immoral" would never find any major support these days). So it's the LGBT who get the full dose of "get out".

Hmmm... I guess? I dunno. As a Christian, specifically Mormon, I can't imagine wanting to drag my RL religious stuff whole-cloth into a fantasy game. The presence of Christ in a game, the way I view Him, automatically precludes other deities, a Vancian magic system, monsters and pretty much anything else in the game. For Christ to conform to anything that would be meaningful to me, Golarion wouldn't be Golarion, and Pathfinder wouldn't be Pathfinder. As much as it makes my athiest friends roll their eyes when I say this, to me Christ is real, and Golarion is fantasy. :P I think perhaps people's objections spring from something other than inclusion envy.

But that's just me? (And it's entirely possible you were just kidding?)

Anywho, again, I figure, if that's something you really desire to have put in place and your table is cool with it, why not just go there? No one outside of those you play with are stopping you.

@TheAntiElite, I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I really like the way you write. :)

I think I get where you're coming from, but I wonder a little at your concern. In most official stuff I've seen, the Paizo writers don't ever really get into the way that an NPC socializes all that specifically. It seems the GM will get notes (outside of whatever is drawn from the alignment assigned a character) that the NPC is noble, or concerned with this that or the other, or what have you, but it's largely the GMs that come up with the "personality" or "socializing" aspect of the character. They kind of come up with the way the character is represented to the players, so your concern that a homosexual character would be represented as a broad stereotype would be something that would be more of a player/group/GM thing, rather than an official product thing. Does that make sense?

And while I'm addressing this, I guess I'll touch on the whole "stereotypical" thing while I'm here, because I obviously am stupid.

My friend's little brother has been extremely effeminate his entire life. He came out in high school (surprising no one), but even as a child, long before he had any real exposure to the idea of a "stereotypical gay male", he was presenting in a way that kinda fell into those stereotypes. He's not a gamer, but I imagined if he played a character that was anything like himself (as some folks do :P ), he might actually have a fighter who would maybe be a bit on the campy side.

I wonder how someone like that would fare at your table. I honestly don't think he's "bought into any stereotypes", per se, but rather, that he might be one of the ur-archetypes that certain sterotypes spring from. He wouldn't be playing a camp character to annoy others, but more because he's, well, he's campy. I'd like to think, because of what you've written (and the way that you've written it, :P) that he'd be welcome, despite whatever misgivings you might have of the way he interacts with others, just by nature.

I guess it doesn't have a whole lot to do with your voiced concerns, but maybe it's something to consider?

And again... I dunno... it's all between you and your table. Play the way you want to play, include and exclude whoever you want to, as long as you're not hurting anyone, what does it matter what you want to change in your personal campaigns, whether by addition or subtraction to/from the source material?

For my vote, I'm happy to see Paizo include people from all walks of life, or opportunities for decent, kind and fair representation of folks from all walks of life. I play with a largely hetero-normative crowd, so it hasn't much come up, simply because it's not something that immediately springs to mind. But due to discussions like these, the whole idea of a broader spectrum of humanity (Dwarfity, Elfity, Orcity and Gnomeity, too) has now come in from the periphery and is more of a thing in our games. I figure that the world of Golarian should be at least as wonderfully varied and colorful as the one I live in, if not more-so. I may never encounter him in my campaigns, but I know there has to be somebody somewhere in this crazy place that my friend's brother would identify with, and if we can ever convince him to join in, maybe we'll find him in some wizard's tower somewhere or in a local apothecary. Or maybe he'll just be the one that brings him into the world, hopefully having a lot of fun when he does so. :)


I thank you again, Pippi, and will note that, as a rule, most are welcomed at my tables, though I wouldn't deny if asked directly if I was annoyed by the campiness; it's not something I would penalize the individual for unless and/or until they did more than be campy and annoying. It would have less to do with any orientation and more to do with personality conflicts, if I DID get annoyed at someone.

I like to think that's fair, because it isn't used as code or shorthand for anything - it's not a blatant 'people who annoy you' trap on Wheel of Fortune spelled out N_GG_RS. (Thank you, South Park, for that meme)

The thing that amuses me is that it often, like anything else, comes down to the person and the personalities. At least, on the players and GM end of things - as far as the published details go, I'll just reiterate that Paizo has decidedly NOT turned into the other publisher that I bailed on. I would dredge up specific examples of what happened with that which provided so much offense, but I gave my books to an ex who moved to Houston and I don't think I want to give myself any ulcers trying to dredge up the matter further.

Also I owe you an apology, but I'm saving the details for PM.


Gorbacz wrote:

Oh, I'm pretty sure one can play a character that follows the basic rules of some real-world religion/philosophy in Golarion. For example, a character that doesn't kill (except in self-defense), doesn't steal, lie or bed another's wife/husband could pretty much say he's doing all the seven commandments while in a fantasy make-believe world and it makes him/her happy.

However, you must remember, that for some people waving the banner is as, or even more, important. They won't be fine with having a PC that acts like a member of the player's faith would, they want to be able to say loudly "I smite thee in the names of Jesus Christ!". Simply put, they want to have the ability to show off certain artefacts of their belief not just as veiled analogy, but as a direct implementation.

And since the gaming world doesn't provide that, they're getting disgruntled at seeing other groups included. And so it happens, that they turn their frustration against that one group they consider to be "immoral" IRL (because let's face it, "get blacks/women/democrats/cat owners out of Golarion because they are immoral" would never find any major support these days). So it's the LGBT who get the full dose of "get out".

I suppose this is possible, but I'd like to see some actual evidence. We've had lots of Christian players comment here and I don't recall any actually talking about anything like this, even in a description of their homegames.

Contributor

Alice Margatroid wrote:
Various species of lizards and insects beg to differ. ;)

Of note, we've noticed that as far as I recall, every species (at least among lizards and amphibians) that we previously thought reproduced exclusively by parthanogenesis... they do for the most part, but they occasionally have sex with male members of related species in order to keep their genetic pool diverse.


Kittyburger wrote:
Lloyd Jackson wrote:

Just popping in to add my two cents on a few things.

1) I like our first transgendered(?) NPC of note. Seriously, in a world with cursed belts of change-gender more people haven't done this before? I also like the previous one, brief mention in the article about the Grey Maidens. However, I do have some beefs. Why were both men->women? Surely some Brevic maiden has dreamed of being a knight and made the switch.

2) Homesexual relationships outnumbering heterosexual ones? Really? This AP has the most involved/reoccuring NPCs since Jade Regent and so far, and odds aren't looking good for later, and all, well both, are homosexual. Let's spread the love around.

There's been three trans woman NPCs in the adventure paths so far (and a fourth in the NPC Codex). The middle one is Marislova, in Reign of Winter.

Transgender people are not people who want to perform social roles assigned to the other gender. If a Brevic maiden wants to be a knight, that doesn't mean she wants to be a man - it means she's a girl who wants to be a knight (for that matter, in Pathfinder how many social roles are actually traditionally reserved to one gender or another?).

Really? Who/where? Not challenging, just curious. I'd totally forgot about Marislova until you mentioned it.

Brevoy has pretty distinct gender roles, and I'm pretty sure female knights aren't kosher. So, I can see a girl switching in order to follow a career that is otherwise unacceptable. Sorry if I offended, it was just the first thing that came to mind. The trope of a girl disguising herself, only more completely.

There are a few countries/regions with exclusive gender roles in the lore. Brevoy and Qadira are the ones that come to mind at the moment, but I'm sure there are more, it'd be weird if there weren't.

Actually, the Golarion representation of genders in various professions strikes me as odd in some ways, like an unusually high number of female soldiers and guards. I blame the attribute system.

Back onto the subject of homosexuality, do you think Mendev is more inclusive that usual? I could see that due to the many locations, cultures, backgrounds of the people who end up there. They're even accepting, more or less, of pit-born tieflings, so something that falls into the 'squick' category probably doesn't seem worth worrying about, especially when there is a limitless, demonic horde of evil itching to play with your entrails. 'You have sex with X? Gross. Keep an eye on that Brimorak.'

Grand Lodge

Lloyd Jackson wrote:
Kittyburger wrote:
Lloyd Jackson wrote:

Just popping in to add my two cents on a few things.

1) I like our first transgendered(?) NPC of note. Seriously, in a world with cursed belts of change-gender more people haven't done this before? I also like the previous one, brief mention in the article about the Grey Maidens. However, I do have some beefs. Why were both men->women? Surely some Brevic maiden has dreamed of being a knight and made the switch.

2) Homesexual relationships outnumbering heterosexual ones? Really? This AP has the most involved/reoccuring NPCs since Jade Regent and so far, and odds aren't looking good for later, and all, well both, are homosexual. Let's spread the love around.

There's been three trans woman NPCs in the adventure paths so far (and a fourth in the NPC Codex). The middle one is Marislova, in Reign of Winter.

Transgender people are not people who want to perform social roles assigned to the other gender. If a Brevic maiden wants to be a knight, that doesn't mean she wants to be a man - it means she's a girl who wants to be a knight (for that matter, in Pathfinder how many social roles are actually traditionally reserved to one gender or another?).

Really? Who/where? Not challenging, just curious. I'd totally forgot about Marislova until you mentioned it.

There's a level 10 Halfling barbarian in NPC Codex, the Grey Maiden in Shattered Star, Marislova in RoW and now Anevia in WotR. :)


You know with polymorph and reincarnation in play something related to this is race bending as well. I know a concept role playing games hit on more often (less 'controversial') but I would suggest that people's opinions would more be on RLTBQ instead of just LTBQ.

Dark Archive

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Abraham spalding wrote:
You know with polymorph and reincarnation in play something related to this is race bending as well. I know a concept role playing games hit on more often (less 'controversial') but I would suggest that people's opinions would more be on RLTBQ instead of just LTBQ.

Where it gets wonky is when you have a situation like in 3.5, where the War Troll was just crazy good to be polymorphed into, if you were a Fighter or Barbarian, to the degree that it would not be unreasonable for there to end up being more 'War Trolls' in the world who had been born humans (or whatever), than those who had been born to a mommy War Troll and a daddy War Troll.

I remember a sci-fi story in which human xenophiles would have 'biosuits' built around themselves in the shape of a spacefaring alien manta-ray like creature that travelled in pods like dolphins. Originally legitimate researchers, but later rich eco-tourists, would infiltrate actual pods of these creatures, and travel among them and 'swim with the dolphins' for months at a time. What they didn't notice right off, is that the actual space-dolphin-thingies not only recognized them, but found them kind of off-putting, and would slowly filter out of infiltrated pods, to recollect far away from systems that the human 'tourists' knew about. Eventually, entire pods of these 'space dolphins' would consist *entirely* of humans 'swimming with the dolphins,' many of them blissfully unaware that they'd never see a real 'space dolphin,' let alone swim with one.

I wonder how the existence of polymorph and reincarnation effects would lead to very distinct sub-cultures, as those who had been born other species entirely, would adopt their own human-biased notions of what these races they've become are actually like. A group of humans who turned into gnolls, for instance, whether willingly or as part of a curse, as in Shadun, in Qadira, might have a culture that would be unrecognizable to born-gnolls, with all sorts of romanticized notions that the born-gnolls would find contemptible or freakishly muddle-headed or wrong or offensive.

That sort of thing could apply to some trans-gendered reincarnated or polymorphed folk as well, who, in their new form, are working so hard at 'acting like a man' or 'acting like a woman' that some born to those genders might find them to be engaged in offensive and exclusionary stereotypes, and just exacerbating anachronistic gender-role copping nonsense like 'real men don't cry' or 'you aren't acting girly enough.'

Shelyn-dude might think he's being *totally* open minded when he joins a new moon ceremony where everyone swaps gender for one night, and, in the process, acts so over-the-top and portrays such a cringe-worthy caricature of feminine behavior, that the women present get a very uncomfortable insight into what he really thinks of women...

What starts out as a 'learn about each other by walking a mile in someone else's shoes' ends up becoming an exercise in 'spot the creep.'

Grand Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.

You know who "tries too hard" in their gender roles? Virtually every child and teenager. How much of a cliche is "go back upstairs and wash off that pound of makeup you just put on" or "pull your pants up"?

Overperforming a social role is part of learning it. It's a process of observe, try, fail, scale back what didn't work, and try again.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Kittyburger wrote:

You know who "tries too hard" in their gender roles? Virtually every child and teenager. How much of a cliche is "go back upstairs and wash off that pound of makeup you just put on" or "pull your pants up"?

Overperforming a social role is part of learning it. It's a process of observe, try, fail, scale back what didn't work, and try again.

What Kittyburger said.

Set, I can see what you're getting it, particularly in regards to racebending (which would be a whole other discussion, I suppose, in terms of how that does or does not map onto real world experiences), but what you're describing in regards to gender, I don't know, it seems to be drawing on a discourse of authenticity that can sometimes be problematic, particularly with regards to trans folk. (Not that that was your intent, of course.)

On the one hand, there probably would be situations like the one you describe. Situations which are not unlike the negative experiences described in the various "people playing characters of another gender" threads. And that would probably understandably bug the "real" people among whom the polymorphed are being, what, tourists, I guess.

On the other hand, scenarios like you're describing could also play out like the "authenticity" slam that trans people sometimes get hit with in the real world. In particular, the idea that trans people are buying into or acting out or perpetuating caricatures of gender behavior. I'm sure this is entirely unintentional on your part, but your second-to-last paragraph ("That sort of thing could apply to some trans-gendered reincarnated or polymorphed folk as well...") doesn't seem to me to be that far from the Janice Raymond-influenced rejection of transfolk that still gets taken up in some quarters today. (Like the Julie Burchill stuff from earlier this year). At least, that's the first thing it brings to mind for me.

Sometimes, you overdo things a bit while trying to get a handle on things. As Kittyburger says, that's a common part of adolescence. In the real world, gender transition has often been likened to a second adolescence (aptly, I think). It does, for some, seem to include the "overdoing it" element for a time (whether that be acting very femme or very macho).

I'd expect that that side of it would also play out in a setting like Golarion when people transition gender, or explore gender through whatever means are available in the setting (potion, spell, Wes' cord, etc.).

The Sheyln-dude in your example might not be a creep, but instead just someone trying to figure themselves out. Just want to put that possibility out there.

On top of all that, there's the question of how what you're describing could feed into ideas of drag performance. Are there drag performers in Golarion? Would the more equitable gender balance that is part of the setting (more equitable than the real world) lead to less drag or more, or different manifestations of drag? Huh. Had not thought about that aspect before.

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.
KSF wrote:
On the other hand, scenarios like you're describing could also play out like the "authenticity" slam that trans people sometimes get hit with in the real world. In particular, the idea that trans people are buying into or acting out or perpetuating caricatures of gender behavior. I'm sure this is entirely unintentional on your part, but your second-to-last paragraph ("That sort of thing could apply to some trans-gendered reincarnated or polymorphed folk as well...") doesn't seem to me to be that far from the Janice Raymond-influenced rejection of transfolk that still gets taken up in some quarters today. (Like the Julie Burchill stuff from earlier this year). At least, that's the first thing it brings to mind for me.

I was not aware that trans-folk get slammed for that (although it would not even remotely surprise me that people uncomfortable with the idea would dig deep into the seat cushions to find *anything* to reject the idea with...), but yeah, I could see that possibility as well. Sorry that touched on a nerve or brought to mind this 'authenticity' thing.

From what vanishingly little I know about transitioning, there's supposed to be some sort of psychological counseling and stuff to weed out people who have some pie-in-the-sky notion that, because they are miserable in their current circumstances, they'd magically be all happy and fulfilled as the other gender, because they've got some romantic notion that the other gender has it easier or 'the grass is greener' or something. As I understand it, nobody wants to transition someone whose actual problem is that they are clinically depressed or something, and has latched onto the notion that they'd be happier if they surgically altered themselves (even if there's an entire industry devoted to other sorts of ethically dubious cosmetic-surgery-as-panacea, as if breast enlargement will somehow save a failing marriage or whatever)....

The sort of person who might make an ass of themselves at a one night 'polymorph party' and show off their inane and sexist views of what they think the other gender is like, wouldn't be the sort of person who, in the real world, would be transitioning. At best, they're 'tourists.'

(I'd also suspect that at least some who delve into whether or not the queer community or drag community or transfolk are reinforcing negative stereotypes about expected masculine or feminine behaviors probably gives a rat's butt about harmful gender-role conformism nonsense, and just is using that as a pseudo-scientific mask for their own uncomfortableness with queer people.)

Getting back to my less fraught-with-peril space-dolphins analogy (apologies to any space-dolphins out there!), I guess there's also the question of how a person using gender or race altering magic affects the behavior of others of that gender or race. The 'tourist' is not just gazing into an abyss (possibly made up more of their own preconceptions than actual truths about the form they've assumed), and yet 'the abyss,' an entire population of people who are and always have been that race or species or gender, are looking back at them, and wondering 'is this what others see, when they look at me?'

It gets all observer-effect-y, when the knowledge that they are being observed, and more so, the knowledge that someone is deliberately aping their behaviors, results in a group altering their behavior, throwing the whole exercise out of whack for everyone.

In the presence of someone that you know to be pretending to be 'your people,' one individual might attempt to correct their behavior, to make them act 'more X' (and, depending on their own preconceptions about what their gender or species should act like, get it hilariously wrong) while another might find themselves cringing at the stereotypes being displayed by the 'tourist,' and unconsciously playing down their own normal 'ethnic' or whatever behaviors, not wanting to validate the tourists portrayal, ending up feeling ashamed of or embarrassed by their own nature, because of this embarrassing show being put on by someone who is 'just visiting.'

In the case of Golarion goblins, for instance, if a bunch of curious gnomes took a potion that allowed them to infiltrate a tribe of goblins for a day, would they, based on their limited understanding of goblin behavior, end up acting so 'over the top' that even the whackier goblins would say, 'These guys are kinda *nuts!* Do they honestly think that we spend 23 hours a day trying to light each others heads on fire?'


Set wrote:

A lot of insightful stuff, with the focus I wanted to get to being...

(I'd also suspect that at least some who delve into whether or not the queer community or drag community or transfolk are reinforcing negative stereotypes about expected masculine or feminine behaviors probably gives a rat's butt about harmful gender-role conformism nonsense, and just is using that as a pseudo-scientific mask for their own uncomfortableness with queer people.)

I would object to this, save that I know that for some people that statement is true.

I think, at least in my case, it's not a mask of discomfort - it also is not a concern for gender-role in relations to the self-identification. It's more that I, personally, find it incredibly annoying, regardless of gender, orientation, or ethnicity. The default 'buffer' given for age does kick in, and until recently I'd not thought of that as part of the reason why I was so used to hearing people say 'they'll grow out of it'.

...which might be why those who don't and embrace the exaggerated parody-interpretations are so bloody annoying to me, as much so as people I share a shade of humanity with thinking that being the worst embodiment of the worst tropes is what properly defines our ethnic group.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Pippi wrote:
Hmmm... I guess? I dunno. As a Christian, specifically Mormon, I can't imagine wanting to drag my RL religious stuff whole-cloth into a fantasy game. The presence of Christ in a game, the way I view Him, automatically precludes other deities, a Vancian magic system, monsters and pretty much anything else in the game. For Christ to conform to anything that would be meaningful to me, Golarion wouldn't be Golarion, and Pathfinder wouldn't be Pathfinder. As much as it makes my athiest friends roll their eyes when I say this, to me Christ is real, and Golarion is fantasy. :P I think perhaps people's objections spring from something other than inclusion envy.

Since Ars Magica's setting was Mythic Europe, that meant that the Divine (as well as the Infernal) was something they had to address...from a 12th century standpoint. I would wager that you might find the treatments interesting.(Unless you're rabidly Anti-Catholic.)

Digital Products Assistant

Removed a post. Let's keep this on topic, please.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Set wrote:
I was not aware that trans-folk get slammed for that (although it would not even remotely surprise me that people uncomfortable with the idea would dig deep into the seat cushions to find *anything* to reject the idea with...), but yeah, I could see that possibility as well. Sorry that touched on a nerve or brought to mind this 'authenticity' thing.

Trans folk can actually get prejudice from the gay community as well. It's only last year that the annual Mascara event in New Jersey actually included a trans panel.

Despite what people may think, the LGBT sector of the population isn't necessarily one united happy family. About the only thing that unites them is common oppression from those that treat them as deviants from the perceived societal "norms".

Dark Archive

I brought this up in the product discussion for Mythic Origins, but I thought it might be appropriate the post this here as well.

Is it just me or does the illustration of Damiel on page 13 of Mythic Origins seem a bit... odd? His pectoral muscles look quite... bulbous, more like breasts. Could this be the reveal that he is the transgendered iconic? If he is, then walking around bare chested doesn't seem like a particularly good idea when you are trying to pass as a different gender.


Atrocious wrote:

I brought this up in the product discussion for Mythic Origins, but I thought it might be appropriate the post this here as well.

Is it just me or does the illustration of Damiel on page 13 of Mythic Origins seem a bit... odd? His pectoral muscles look quite... bulbous, more like breasts. Could this be the reveal that he is the transgendered iconic? If he is, then walking around bare chested doesn't seem like a particularly good idea when you are trying to pass as a different gender.

Rounded pecs aren't really indicative of anything.

Shadow Lodge

Damiel's just been eating a bit too much. Packing on the man-boobs. :P

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Atrocious wrote:

I brought this up in the product discussion for Mythic Origins, but I thought it might be appropriate the post this here as well.

Is it just me or does the illustration of Damiel on page 13 of Mythic Origins seem a bit... odd? His pectoral muscles look quite... bulbous, more like breasts. Could this be the reveal that he is the transgendered iconic? If he is, then walking around bare chested doesn't seem like a particularly good idea when you are trying to pass as a different gender.

Or it may be the result of too many mutagens. You can't ever tell with an alchemist, especially one as absent-minded as Damiel.

Grand Lodge

Lilith wrote:
Atrocious wrote:

I brought this up in the product discussion for Mythic Origins, but I thought it might be appropriate the post this here as well.

Is it just me or does the illustration of Damiel on page 13 of Mythic Origins seem a bit... odd? His pectoral muscles look quite... bulbous, more like breasts. Could this be the reveal that he is the transgendered iconic? If he is, then walking around bare chested doesn't seem like a particularly good idea when you are trying to pass as a different gender.

Rounded pecs aren't really indicative of anything.

Except maybe poor art design. Or maybe too many mutagens, as said above. ;)


Just so you know, the adventure path Wrath of the Righteous now at least four gay/transgender/bi characters on the good guy side.

The second installment, Sword of Valour features two male characters who are/were lovers, whereas the last one had a male who became a female and fell in love with another female.

Interesting to see that the villains doesn't seem to have a love life.


Kittyburger wrote:
Lilith wrote:
Atrocious wrote:

I brought this up in the product discussion for Mythic Origins, but I thought it might be appropriate the post this here as well.

Is it just me or does the illustration of Damiel on page 13 of Mythic Origins seem a bit... odd? His pectoral muscles look quite... bulbous, more like breasts. Could this be the reveal that he is the transgendered iconic? If he is, then walking around bare chested doesn't seem like a particularly good idea when you are trying to pass as a different gender.

Rounded pecs aren't really indicative of anything.
Except maybe poor art design. Or maybe too many mutagens, as said above. ;)

Damiel, the Exploding Pectoral Man!


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

Using the already existing gods in Golarion, you could do Old Testamant-type religion where many gods exist but you have a special deal (Covenant) with one.

But you couldn't do monotheism, because all the other gods whose existence you deny would turn up at your church and break your stained-glass windows.

The middle section of Faiths and Philosophies implies that many religious people in Golarion are "monotheists" of a sort, inasmuch as they refuse to worship other gods. This makes sense; you can't really focus on the purity of Iomedae's valor and still respect the wealth-chasing of, say, Abadar.

There are references to Abrahmic religions throughout the various religions in Golarion, so I think it's reasonable to say that everyone is represented in some fashion.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Lilith wrote:
Atrocious wrote:

I brought this up in the product discussion for Mythic Origins, but I thought it might be appropriate the post this here as well.

Is it just me or does the illustration of Damiel on page 13 of Mythic Origins seem a bit... odd? His pectoral muscles look quite... bulbous, more like breasts. Could this be the reveal that he is the transgendered iconic? If he is, then walking around bare chested doesn't seem like a particularly good idea when you are trying to pass as a different gender.

Rounded pecs aren't really indicative of anything.

Well, they could be indicative of gynecomastia

Silver Crusade

spectrevk wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

Using the already existing gods in Golarion, you could do Old Testamant-type religion where many gods exist but you have a special deal (Covenant) with one.

But you couldn't do monotheism, because all the other gods whose existence you deny would turn up at your church and break your stained-glass windows.

The middle section of Faiths and Philosophies implies that many religious people in Golarion are "monotheists" of a sort, inasmuch as they refuse to worship other gods. This makes sense; you can't really focus on the purity of Iomedae's valor and still respect the wealth-chasing of, say, Abadar.

There are references to Abrahmic religions throughout the various religions in Golarion, so I think it's reasonable to say that everyone is represented in some fashion.

So....you agree with me, then?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I'm saying that there are effectively monotheists in Golarion already; regardless of whether or not other gods exist, these people simply don't worship them.

But other than that quibble, yes, I agree.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Alice Margatroid wrote:

** Alice's Handy Dandy Guide to LGBT in Pathfinder **

** Why are LGBT people being included in Pathfinder?
Here's why:
There are a number of reasons, but primarily because Paizo believes that people should be represented in their game, no matter what majority or minority groups they belong to or identify with. Some of the Paizo staff and their customers are LGBT, after all.

Yeah. I'm autistic, and, this may seem strange to you, that's how I identify. Gender, orientation, sex - all secondary. I'm currently straight & male, these things probably won't change but they could. However, I'm going to be autistic for the rest of my life. So, well, Paizo may believe what you say they do, but, if so, from my point of view, they've failed. I don't care whether Paizo include LGBT characters in their products or not (unless that gets in the way of the gaming, which it hasn't), but if they or their fans get all preachy about how "inclusive" that is I'm going to roll my eyes at them.

This especially applies to those people who are saying "LGBT characters exist in real life, so it's bigoted not to include them in the game." Autistic people exist in real life, but I don't see you including us in your games. And I don't think that you should include us in your games just because we exist in real life. Put us in one of your games if that improves the story. If not, don't bother. A good analogy, I think, would be movies. I understand "Brokeback Mountain" included gay characters, but I doubt it included autistic characters. And the recent version of "True Grit" included an autistic character but no obviously LGBT characters. And both movies were better for concentrating on something the writers cared about and doing it well. A D&D campaign is like a movie, not an encyclopedia: it doesn't have to have everything.

On the other hand, it’s quite true that including and not including LGBT characters are both political decisions, while including autistic characters is not. (If Paizo were to include an autistic character in a product, no one would get upset about it.)

Gorbacz wrote:

However, you must remember, that for some people waving the banner is as, or even more, important. They won't be fine with having a PC that acts like a member of the player's faith would, they want to be able to say loudly "I smite thee in the names of Jesus Christ!"...

And since the gaming world doesn't provide that, they're getting disgruntled at seeing other groups included. And so it happens, that they turn their frustration against that one group they consider to be "immoral" IRL (because let's face it, "get blacks/women/democrats/cat owners out of Golarion because they are immoral" would never find any major support these days). So it's the LGBT who get the full dose of "get out".

Way to caricature those who aren’t like you! The longstanding convention of fantasy RPG theology is that there are several pantheons of anthropomorphic gods, and because the vast majority of people in North America and Europe are monotheist or atheist, not polytheist, that's neutral, doesn't offend anyone, and has the added bonus of potential plot hooks if the DM wants. But Paizo chose to go out of their way to shoehorn "atheism" into their setting (even though it doesn't make any sense there at all, in the same way that a PC not believing in faster-than-the-speed-of-light travel wouldn’t make any sense in a Star Trek campaign), presumably so that people who identify as atheist in RL can play "atheist" characters in Golarion. The equivalent of that, for a monotheistic player, is not playing a character who worships one of a pantheon of fictional anthropomorphic gods that were written for entertainment purposes. The equivalent is playing a character who shares their particular brand of RL monotheism. (Not that every Christian player would want to play a Christian character, just as not every Atheist player wants to play an Atheist character. But that's the equivalent level of choice.) Even as a polytheist I'd be more invested in my characters if they worshipped deities from pantheons that RL people have worshipped than the for-the-lolz deities Paizo has written. I don't think it's that big of a deal, but I think it's fair to say that Paizo's concern for inclusivitivity (or at least their success in implementing that concern) extends to atheists but not to theists.

Abyssal Lord wrote:
Interesting to see that the villains doesn't seem to have a love life.

No reason to spend the time detailing the love lives of villains unless there’s some reason that the PC’s will learn of them.


@ Thorri: Just because X group is underrepresented doesn't mean Y group should also remain underrepresented.

Further, I think you misunderstand what an "atheist" represents in the context of Golarion. They are not people who disbelieve the existence of gods; rather, they are people that do not believe that "gods" deserve to be admired or worshiped. The so called "gods", to them, are nothing more than super-powerful outsiders, no different than demons, devils, etc.

"No reason to spend the time detailing the love lives of villains unless there’s some reason that the PC’s will learn of them."

According to you; many would disagree. Just because the players will never learn something doesn't make it any less important. Hell, open any AP and read the first few pages of the Introduction. Half that stuff goes right over the players' heads, even when it's revealed in character.


Thorri,

Interesting point of view. Something I haven't seen come up before. I'm not sure how much I agree.
I'd be very hesitant to include autistic people in a game I ran. And even less likely in something I published. Not because I'm prejudiced against them or because I think they don't belong, but because I wouldn't know how to run them accurately and not offensively. Nor, I suspect, would most other GMs.

Homosexuals, even transsexuals, are easy. They have their one thing that's different and even that fits pretty easily into everyone's experience. But in everything else, they act and react just like straight people do.
Straight women are harder for me than gay guys. Different races would be harder, but who's to know if you get it wrong. :)

The entire nature of autism (as I understand it and I'm not an expert by any means) is that you think and react differently. Without a lot of work, I don't think I could do that well. Not without descending into parody. I'm not all convinced it would be a good idea for Paizo to push people towards trying by including autistic characters in adventures.

I would have nothing against a player running an autistic character if he wanted to and knew enough to do a good/not offensive job.

As for atheists: The main groups of atheists in Golarion (primarily Rahadoum) are portrayed as dangerous and fanatical, persecuting believers and driving them from the country. Hardly what I would choose if I was really trying to cater to atheists. More like what I would expect a hardline believer to expect atheists to be like if given power.
OTOH, Ezren would be more of a role model atheist.

Shadow Lodge

There is also Touvette of the River Kingdoms, Bachuan, Razmiran, and some aspects of the Whispering Way and the Green Faith. Some incarnations of them are represented as atheistic in nature. Also the Prophets of Kalistrade.

Edit: Almost forgot about Hermea, too.

Shadow Lodge

thejeff wrote:

OTOH, Ezren would be more of a role model atheist.

Because he found out that his own father had lied to him the whole time and the church had been completely right from the start? :)

Grand Lodge

"Devil's Advocate" wrote:
thejeff wrote:

OTOH, Ezren would be more of a role model atheist.

Because he found out that his own father had lied to him the whole time and the church had been completely right from the start? :)

The problem is that atheism in a fantasy RPG that has explicitly Divine magic is fraught with questions that very few RPGs are equipped to handle realistically or evenhandedly. Morrigan works in Dragon Age as an explicit atheist because she exists in a world where Divine magic does not; magic is arcane only, even healing magic can only come from mages. She doesn't work in Pathfinder because Divine magic that can only be accessed by priests is a clear indication that higher powers exist that are at least in some ways as humans conceive them.

Liberty's Edge

Comparing sexuality to autism is like comparing apples and oranges in my eyes, but OK.

Couple of thoughts:

1) As noted, just because one group is under-represented doesn't mean we shouldn't strive towards equality for another,

2) If you feel strongly about the representation, I encourage you to ask Paizo about it.

FWIW, I think it would be interesting to have an austic (particularly aspergers) character; the people I've known with the condition have always been quite fascinating people. The smartest guy I've ever known was, actually.

3) Part of the problem with representation is that Paizo doesn't just come out and say "Oh, <x> person is homosexual" or "<y> person is autistic". It is INCREDIBLY easy to imply the former ("She is married to <a woman>") but not so easy to imply the latter ("He tends to be incredibly focused, almost a genius, in certain areas of study; however he can sometimes misunderstand social borders" could mean pretty much any high-Int, low-Cha Wizard type)*.

4) I don't think a movie is a good comparison. A movie is like a single adventure module. Golarion as a whole is supposed to represent an entire world, so let's say... the setting where all the Star Trek series are set. If you don't have a gay person (or an autistic person or whatever) in a singular episode (adventure), that's fair enough; but if you don't have a single one throughout the entire world? That's kind of odd, to me.

* Please excuse me if this is a bad representation, but that's basically how I've heard high-functioning autism characterised.

EDIT: Side note--the indie game "To The Moon" shows VERY well how an autistic person can be represented, particularly the earlier parts of the game when it's not explicitly said that a certain character is autistic. I think that would make a very interesting NPC. I still don't think, however, it's nearly as easy to suggest as a homosexual NPC. :)


Thorri Grimbeard wrote:
Alice Margatroid wrote:

** Alice's Handy Dandy Guide to LGBT in Pathfinder **

** Why are LGBT people being included in Pathfinder?
Here's why:
There are a number of reasons, but primarily because Paizo believes that people should be represented in their game, no matter what majority or minority groups they belong to or identify with. Some of the Paizo staff and their customers are LGBT, after all.

Yeah. I'm autistic, and, this may seem strange to you, that's how I identify. Gender, orientation, sex - all secondary. I'm currently straight & male, these things probably won't change but they could. However, I'm going to be autistic for the rest of my life. So, well, Paizo may believe what you say they do, but, if so, from my point of view, they've failed. I don't care whether Paizo include LGBT characters in their products or not (unless that gets in the way of the gaming, which it hasn't), but if they or their fans get all preachy about how "inclusive" that is I'm going to roll my eyes at them.

This especially applies to those people who are saying "LGBT characters exist in real life, so it's bigoted not to include them in the game." Autistic people exist in real life, but I don't see you including us in your games. And I don't think that you should include us in your games just because we exist in real life. Put us in one of your games if that improves the story. If not, don't bother. A good analogy, I think, would be movies. I understand "Brokeback Mountain" included gay characters, but I doubt it included autistic characters. And the recent version of "True Grit" included an autistic character but no obviously LGBT characters. And both movies were better for concentrating on something the writers cared about and doing it well. A D&D campaign is like a movie, not an encyclopedia: it doesn't have to have everything.

On the other hand, it’s quite true that including and not including LGBT characters are both political decisions, while including autistic characters is not. (If...

Autistic and LGBT are not mutually exclusive. I also think thier should be asexual characters that are not really interested. I think games should have different kinds of characters with unique facts to make the game different and memorable and not the same thing over and over which gets boring.

Silver Crusade

spectrevk wrote:

I'm saying that there are effectively monotheists in Golarion already; regardless of whether or not other gods exist, these people simply don't worship them.

But other than that quibble, yes, I agree.

Then we are quibbling about the meaning of the word.

Wikipedia wrote:
Monotheism is defined by the Encyclopædia Britannica as belief in the existence of one god

Hard to do when the existence of many gods is incontrovertible.


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
spectrevk wrote:

I'm saying that there are effectively monotheists in Golarion already; regardless of whether or not other gods exist, these people simply don't worship them.

But other than that quibble, yes, I agree.

Then we are quibbling about the meaning of the word.

Wikipedia wrote:
Monotheism is defined by the Encyclopædia Britannica as belief in the existence of one god
Hard to do when the existence of many gods is incontrovertible.

and the argument that thor exists as much as the abrahamic god does and with as much proof in the real world means the point returns to silverclaw in my opinion.

in so much as the existence of many gods in our world is incontrovertible.

Silver Crusade

Abraham spalding wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
spectrevk wrote:

I'm saying that there are effectively monotheists in Golarion already; regardless of whether or not other gods exist, these people simply don't worship them.

But other than that quibble, yes, I agree.

Then we are quibbling about the meaning of the word.

Wikipedia wrote:
Monotheism is defined by the Encyclopædia Britannica as belief in the existence of one god
Hard to do when the existence of many gods is incontrovertible.

and the argument that thor exists as much as the abrahamic god does and with as much proof in the real world means the point returns to silverclaw in my opinion.

in so much as the existence of many gods in our world is incontrovertible.

???

In Golarion, gods provably exist. Plural.

In real life, the fact that the existence of the monotthist's God cannot be proved is taken as a positive thing, because Faith (defined as 'believing without proof') is seen as showing more devotion. Or something.

It's possible in our world to believe in only one God, safe in the knowledge that you cannot be proved wrong. This is not possible in Golarion, because a monotheist can be proved wrong.


Pffft. Atheism does not mean "I don't believe in your God". Its exact meaning varies between atheists, but in general, it is a denial of the importance of Faith and the Divine. Thus, any school of thought that aims toward a transcendent utopian future, for one or for all, will not be atheist in nature. There is a very strong case to be made for communism being transcendent (The Classless Society, anyone?), which means it is a collection of teachings that channel feelings of faith and divinity into the ideology. Things like Hermean society, the Green Faith and the teachings of Kalistrade are certainly not atheist in nature.

Silver Crusade

....I keep going back and forth over whether or not Merisiel is autistic in my head-canon...

Shadow Lodge

3 people marked this as a favorite.

You have a cannon mounted on your head?

Shadow Lodge

Sissyl wrote:
Things like Hermean society, the Green Faith and the teachings of Kalistrade are certainly not atheist in nature.

Except they actually are. Green Faith to a bit of a lesser degree. Hermean Society forbids religion and faith. The followers of the PoK believe that the gods, if they exist are an unimportant passing fad along the lines of powerful outsiders. The Green Faith is like that to a lesser degree. Like the Whispering Way, there seem to be a few different views of them presented. Some more antitheist than others.

4,451 to 4,500 of 5,778 << first < prev | 85 | 86 | 87 | 88 | 89 | 90 | 91 | 92 | 93 | 94 | 95 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Lost Omens Campaign Setting / General Discussion / Homosexuality in Golarion All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.