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The alternative is to shoehorn it with weirder characters...I would much rather have a male human NPC chat up another male human NPC, than have to roleplay a human NPC attempting to seduce a kobold. Because....no...just no.
I see how you are...
Why you gotta be hatin'? Maybe you afraid you gonna like it scaly?..
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I agree. Hate having to random roll when i have a concept in mind. I have actually had a gm make you roll the stats in order----got rolls totally unplayable for the character I had in mind.
I would rather they do something like other games. Gender neutral.
humans weight would equal (strength + constitution)X6
so 10 str and 10 con would be 120 lbs
20 str and 20 con would be 240your low str/low con wizards would weight less and your high str/high con fighters/barbarians would weigh more.
as for the encumbrance----almost every gm I play with uses that.
how many of you on the rope---how much do you weight--I need to check to see if it breaks
how much gear do you have? is your horse encumbered enough to slow it in the charge
ok-they are trying to haul you up on the rope-how much do you weigh...
This is like the most irrelevant point ever mind you and has approx. 0 to do with homosexuality in Golarion, so... spoilered.
I thought most people played small races on medium mounts because you can actually take your riding dog (or whatever) into a dungeon. Maneuvering horses down 5-foot corridors or charging in limited spaces isn't easy. I've never, ever seen anyone consider encumbrance when making a mounted character.
Also, I've never seen a GM worry about encumbrance pretty much ever, except for perhaps whether your carried gear puts you to medium encumbrance for the movement penalty, if that. And that includes in Pathfinder Society play where you're supposed to play to RAW. Most people seem to agree that encumbrance rules are incredibly fiddly and not worth the effort, especially in the middle of a game.
Carrying the conversation over from the LGBT Gamer thread, per Jessica.
My points are in my posts. I would ask you to read them; but it also seems a good time to ask you a few questions: do you think Lastwall knights should be trans, in minor (individual) or major (detachment) numbers? Do you think it would work with the material as currently presented?
Should paizo make a historical re-write of the setting on LGBT grounds? Thank you.
1) I don't know about should be, but could be, might as well be, probably are (at least as individuals) sure. It'd be nice.
2) Yes, I think it works with the material as currently presented.
And what do you mean by "currently presented"? Is there a deadline after which no new material can be added? If Arshea's blessing trans people (which points to their presence in Golarion) was included in a recent product, is it disqualified for being too new an addition? Or are we talking as of August 26, 2013?
3) It seems to have already been written into the setting. Or, alternately, are you suggesting that there can be no new revelations or additional, previously undisclosed details, about anything in Golarion? Is the setting now locked?
That seems to be what you're saying with:
Explicit: a. Fully and clearly expressed; leaving nothing implied.
If they are in, then they should explicitly be indicated. If they have not been put in, they are not in. This is world creation (and defining what is in the setting).
Should Paizo stop publishing new material? Is that what you're saying?
Obviously, no. Yes, we're talking about world creation. That creation is obviously not finished. Like any living RPG setting, Golarion is a work in progress.
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The alternative is to shoehorn it with weirder characters...I would much rather have a male human NPC chat up another male human NPC, than have to roleplay a human NPC attempting to seduce a kobold. Because....no...just no.I see how you are...
Why you gotta be hatin'? Maybe you afraid you gonna like it scaly?..
Salmonella concerns?
Like this?
Not only exactly like that but that also happens everytime I hear that phrase too. 0_o
Is it even possible? Do kobolds have a cloaca, or hemipenes? these are questions I have not pondered
On a related note, it wouldn't have worked anyway, as the Kobold in question was played (at least initially) as not being able to tell mammal sexes apart. Think Strax from Dr. Who.
@Mikaze: I fear that you and me could create a Campaign that would frighten people...
Strax! I love that little walking potato!
Contributor
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How 'bout that Rise of the Runelords pushing that subversive and squicky heterosexual agenda? First week there, we had Shayliss (sp?) trying to get all down on one of our male PCs bidness, and then there was that fight between Ameiko and her dad, in which he brings up her mother, and then there's that heterosexual couple and their kids, with the goblin problem.
Straight agenda, all ham-fisted and anvilicious, 1, 2, 3, right up in your face! Why's everybody got to be talkin' about their opposite sex partners and children and all that political stuff that gives us simple folk an uncomfortableness?
Instead of shoving some conformist hetero-normative agenda down our throats, every NPC should exist in a vacuum, and have no parents ('cause that implies het sex happened) or love interests (moar seks) or children (again with the sex! Get off each other for a moment people, we're trying to kill goblins here!).
Or... maybe one in many dozens of NPC relationships being queer as a three dollar bill is actually not totally some sort of creeping tokenism or gay mafia agenda to en-gayify the chiluns?
Or we could go with the Stork theory and no one actually ever has sex, or at least if they do it has nothing to do with procreation. Have you ever seen a pregnant character in Golarion, excepting Lamashtu, who's always pregnant?
And since She has dominion over animals, She could use the Stork as one of Her heralds, so every sentient being on Golarion, even little human paladins, was spawned by Lamashtu and delivered by Her Stork.
This theory also lets gay couples have children without resorting to additional magic or adoption.
Pharasma is also a goddess of pregnancy, and storks = psychopomps... The mother sphinx of Absalom is pregnant (with what ...?) Or as Yeats says:
"...A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Wind shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?"
:)
I'll say it again. The awareness of being transgender, even if one does not yet have a term for it, often hits early, either very early (like 3 or 4), or just before or as adolescence starts (11, 12, 13). A large number of trans people seem to fit into those two groups. What sort of disenchantment exacerbated by societal forces (or 1950s society) is a 4 year old feeling?A four year old does not exist separate from society, its culture, language or its pressures. You have also tied it to "just before or as adolescence starts (11, 12, 13)". An adolescent is not separate from the society they have been raised inside of, or distinctly separate from a society which is rife with opportunities for uprootedness and non-static identities. Man, woman, (in-between?) or child, is not an island.
I don't think that's what I said at all. Sure, we're all influenced by society in various ways.
What I said was that the kinds of specific societal elements you're talking about, particularly the idea of a "movement" or "symbol" of being disenchanted are probably not at play in what transgender children experience. And that I personally have no memory of any sort of dissatisfaction of the sort you're attributing things to.
Regarding "just before or adolescence starts," do I need to point out that there are biological, non-societal elements at work on individuals at that point in their lives as well?
Or do you mean to suggest that all behavior and thought stems exclusively from social influence? And do you reject the various studies that point to a biological basis for transsexualism, particularly with regards to brain structure?
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Also, sorry to anyone if those last two posts seem like they suddenly appeared out of nowhere. There was an argument going on in the other thread, everyone agreed it should be moved over to here as a better fit for the thread topic.
I'll say it again. The awareness of being transgender, even if one does not yet have a term for it, often hits early, either very early (like 3 or 4), or just before or as adolescence starts (11, 12, 13). A large number of trans people seem to fit into those two groups. What sort of disenchantment exacerbated by societal forces (or 1950s society) is a 4 year old feeling?A four year old does not exist separate from society, its culture, language or its pressures. You have also tied it to "just before or as adolescence starts (11, 12, 13)". An adolescent is not separate from the society they have been raised inside of, or distinctly separate from a society which is rife with opportunities for uprootedness and non-static identities. Man, woman, (in-between?) or child, is not an island.I don't think that's what I said at all. Sure, we're all influenced by society in various ways.
What I said was that the kinds of specific societal elements you're talking about, particularly the idea of a "movement" or "symbol" of being disenchanted are probably not at play in what transgender children experience. And that I personally have no memory of any sort of dissatisfaction of the sort you're attributing things to.
Regarding "just before or adolescence starts," do I need to point out that there are biological, non-societal elements at work on individuals at that point in their lives as well?
Or do you mean to suggest that all behavior and thought stems exclusively from social influence? And do you reject the various studies that point to a biological basis for transsexualism, particularly with regards to brain structure?
When you are talking about movements and individual identities, you are not just talking about biology. We have crossed multiple realms here, but the biological validity of "feelings" is something that is often argued. Those feelings are taken, shaped and in some cases encouraged by specific real world movements. There is a group and the group is in society.
Is such a group in Golarion society? Not if it isn't added.
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When you are talking about movements and individual identities, you are not just talking about biology. We have crossed multiple realms here, but the biological validity of "feelings" is something that is often argued. Those feelings are taken, shaped and in some cases encouraged by specific real world movements. There is a group and the group is in society.
Is such a group in Golarion society? Not if it isn't added.
I think the place where we're butting heads is you seem to hold this to be simply (or primarily) a matter of a vague and insubstantial "feeling," where I think there's a significant and very real biological component, as various brain studies in the past decade seem to be indicating.
I would not try to say social influence is not at all involved here. I would say that there is an interaction between a physical, biological condition, that may be present at birth, and the society into which a transgender individual is born and in which they are raised. But despite the variability of societal influence, the underlying biological cause seems to be consistent and unchanged, and that is what I mean by the term "transgender," or by saying "I am transgender."
I am also questioning the specific societal influences you've been pointing out as the apparent cause, since as near as I can tell (and I have given this subject a lot of thought, spent much time in introspection), there were no external influences on me of the sort you are describing. Therefore, I'm rejecting your claim as originally stated (the "movement" or "symbol" connected to disenchantment thing).
Does that make it clear?
If you want to say that the way I have subsequently expressed my transgender status has been influenced by society (or not expressed, as I spent a long time closeted, like many trans people do), then sure. But the underlying cause or engine, sorry, that does not seem to be the case for me or for any other transgender people whose accounts I have read.
Again, I think you might not understand what it means to be transgender as well as you think you do, and I respectfully suggest talking to trans people, reading their work, listening to what they have to say.
I'd also suggest you give the current scientific literature on the subject a look. Start with that link Todd Stewart posted in the other thread.
And with all due respect, I don't think anything more will come out of this argument we're having. And it's late where I'm at. So I will thank you for taking the discussion out of the other thread, thank you for your expressed support for LGB people, and ask that you try to learn about more about people in the T category and see if you might then be able to extend to us the same respect.
Edit to add: Left out the last part of your post. To that, I'd say, given my perspective (which I think is an accurate one), it seems to me that the underlying biological causes for transgenderism would most likely be present in the human population of Golarion. And that therefore, although the ways in which that condition might interact with the various cultures of the setting might not be identical to the ways it interact with various cultures in the real world, I do think it would manifest itself, even in a soldier at Lastwall.
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That group is [u]already canonically present[/u]. See NPC Codex, Chronicle of the Righteous, Pathfinder Adventure Path #62, 69 and 73. Individual transgender NPCs and social structures are shown. It's an extant fact that you're debating the validity of, not a hypothetical.
We're stuck with the double standard that if you don't show trans people they "don't exist" but if you do show them, they're "forced inclusion." It's a situation where the deck is stacked to begin with.
That group is [u]already canonically present[/u]. See NPC Codex, Chronicle of the Righteous, Pathfinder Adventure Path #62, 69 and 73. Individual transgender NPCs and social structures are shown. It's an extant fact that you're debating the validity of, not a hypothetical.
We're stuck with the double standard that if you don't show trans people they "don't exist" but if you do show them, they're "forced inclusion." It's a situation where the deck is stacked to begin with.
Forgot about the NPC Codex. Good call on that one.
When you are talking about movements and individual identities, you are not just talking about biology. We have crossed multiple realms here, but the biological validity of "feelings" is something that is often argued. Those feelings are taken, shaped and in some cases encouraged by specific real world movements. There is a group and the group is in society.
Is such a group in Golarion society? Not if it isn't added.
I think the place where we're butting heads is you seem to hold this to be simply (or primarily) a matter of a vague and insubstantial "feeling," where I think there's a significant and very real biological component, as various brain studies in the past decade seem to be indicating.
I would not try to say social influence is not at all involved here. I would say that there is an interaction between a physical, biological condition, that may be present at birth, and the society into which a transgender individual is born and in which they are raised. But despite the variability of societal influence, the underlying biological cause seems to be consistent and unchanged, and that is what I mean by the term "transgender," or by saying "I am transgender."
I am also questioning the specific societal influences you've been pointing out as the apparent cause, since as near as I can tell (and I have given this subject a lot of thought, spent much time in introspection), there were no external influences on me of the sort you are describing. Therefore, I'm rejecting your claim as originally stated (the "movement" or "symbol" connected to disenchantment thing).
Does that make it clear?
If you want to say that the way I have subsequently expressed my transgender status has been influenced by society (or not expressed, as I spent a long time closeted, like many trans people do), then sure. But the underlying cause or engine, sorry, that does not seem to be the case for me or for any other transgender people whose accounts I have read.
Again, I think you...
"I am also questioning the specific societal influences you've been pointing out as the apparent cause, since as near as I can tell (and I have given this subject a lot of thought, spent much time in introspection), there were no external influences on me of the sort you are describing. Therefore, I'm rejecting your claim as originally stated (the "movement" or "symbol" connected to disenchantment thing)."
No person is an island though. You were raised in external experiences. Are you American? Your society is fractured, confused and highly contested over a great many issues.
The science interests me, as do the movements and what they are pushing for (especially when it comes to gaming).
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Forgot about the NPC Codex. Good call on that one.That group is [u]already canonically present[/u]. See NPC Codex, Chronicle of the Righteous, Pathfinder Adventure Path #62, 69 and 73. Individual transgender NPCs and social structures are shown. It's an extant fact that you're debating the validity of, not a hypothetical.
We're stuck with the double standard that if you don't show trans people they "don't exist" but if you do show them, they're "forced inclusion." It's a situation where the deck is stacked to begin with.
Also, don't forget that Arshea has been who s/he is ever since the first campaign setting hardcover back before the switch to PFRPG. And Calistria was also there explicitly as early as Second Darkness.
(and technically, all of the angel-based Empyreals have this to a degree!)
Then there's Kaer Maga's Miss Feathers, though she was resulting in some wildly varying takes until her description was clarified further down the line.
Besides Arshea, it seems like Lymnieris and possibly even Shei would be popular Empyreals for transgendered people to look towards, considering their focus on guidance through critical phases of life and fulfilling potential.
When you are talking about movements and individual identities, you are not just talking about biology. We have crossed multiple realms here, but the biological validity of "feelings" is something that is often argued. Those feelings are taken, shaped and in some cases encouraged by specific real world movements. There is a group and the group is in society.
Is such a group in Golarion society? Not if it isn't added.
I think the place where we're butting heads is you seem to hold this to be simply (or primarily) a matter of a vague and insubstantial "feeling," where I think there's a significant and very real biological component, as various brain studies in the past decade seem to be indicating.
I would not try to say social influence is not at all involved here. I would say that there is an interaction between a physical, biological condition, that may be present at birth, and the society into which a transgender individual is born and in which they are raised. But despite the variability of societal influence, the underlying biological cause seems to be consistent and unchanged, and that is what I mean by the term "transgender," or by saying "I am transgender."
I am also questioning the specific societal influences you've been pointing out as the apparent cause, since as near as I can tell (and I have given this subject a lot of thought, spent much time in introspection), there were no external influences on me of the sort you are describing. Therefore, I'm rejecting your claim as originally stated (the "movement" or "symbol" connected to disenchantment thing).
Does that make it clear?
If you want to say that the way I have subsequently expressed my transgender status has been influenced by society (or not expressed, as I spent a long time closeted, like many trans people do), then sure. But the underlying cause or engine, sorry, that does not seem to be the case for me or for any other transgender people whose accounts I have read.
Again, I think you...
Got a question. Why do the humans of Golarion, have to be the same as the humans of our world?
They do not, and in many cases they are not. Unlike our world there are things like magic and transfiguration that are based on narratives rather than physics. It is unimaginative to copy paste. Some players do not want more minorities of this world ported across. There is the question of do they fit, and the question of what is the intent and why they are here?
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/oh-god-why
Do the humans of Golarion have to be us? And does our history have to be forced upon it, and the history of third genders across cultures as appropriated by recent trans movements?
It does not have to occur, but paizo is tempted and there are some indications it is happening more and more, so far mostly tucked into adventure paths.
No person is an island though. You were raised in external experiences. Are you American? Your society is fractured, confused and highly contested over a great many issues.
Again, I agree that no person is an island. But neither are we ourselves wholly determined by the society which surrounds us. There is an intersection between biology and culture, which means either one can bring something to the table (so to speak), and in this case, it now seems it's biology.
And yes, I'm American. But my childhood up to that point was not particularly fractured or confused, was not caught up in the crux of highly contested issues. It was a pleasant life in the suburbs, in fact.
I think they did show the toilet a couple of times. Picard had to go before an emergency. I think it was in the schematics as well.
Can I get a link on the canon? No, no the 12 pounder, the other one.
No person is an island though. You were raised in external experiences. Are you American? Your society is fractured, confused and highly contested over a great many issues.Again, I agree that no person is an island. But neither are we ourselves wholly determined by the society which surrounds us. There is an intersection between biology and culture, which means either one can bring something to the table (so to speak), and in this case, it now seems it's biology.
And yes, I'm American. But my childhood up to that point was not particularly fractured or confused, was not caught up in the crux of highly contested issues. It was a pleasant life in the suburbs, in fact.
Much has been written on the burbs as a place of confusion, fear and hollowness. The pleasant life is not devoid of anxiety and uncertainty.
If I can praise you for anything, Loyalist, its your tenacity and dedication to the fight, no matter how much traction you think you have.
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Got a question. Why do the humans of Golarion, have to be the same as the humans of our world?
The same culturally or the same biologically? The latter seems to be a default assumption common to most fantasy settings, including (I'd guess) the ones which Golarion draws upon.
Sure, there could be a biological difference. Sure, you could specifically say as a biological difference the humans of Golarion are put together in such a way that the biological causes of transgenderism do not occur within them.
That does not, however, seem to be the world that Paizo has presented, as others have pointed out.
And why single that one thing out as a difference? What does that mean as a storytelling choice? A world-building choice? What would one be trying to say be purposefully excluding trans people?
They do not, and in many cases they are not. Unlike our world there are things like magic and transfiguration that are based on narratives rather than physics. It is unimaginative to copy paste. Some players do not want more minorities of this world ported across. There is the question of do they fit, and the question of what is the intent and why they are here?
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/oh-god-why
Do the humans of Golarion have to be us? And does our history have to be forced upon it, and the history of third genders across cultures as appropriated by recent trans movements?
It does not have to occur, but paizo is tempted and there are some indications it is happening more and more, so far mostly tucked into adventure paths.
No, they don't have to be us. But their various points of intersection with us, biologically, culturally, provide avenues for significant storytelling. If one of the purposes of RPGing is to engage in the interactive creation of stories that have meaning to the players and GM, correspondences between humanity as we know and humanity as Golarion knows it can be useful.
And yes, you could go the opposite direction, like, what, Skyrealms of Jorune or something, but that does not seem to be the decision that Paizo has made.
Do the various real world manifestations of third genders or of contemporary understandings of the trans experience (I'm not taking up the appropriation argument, sorry) need to transposed to Golarion? Again, no. But the creators of Paizo seem to have decided there is value in doing so, as they have other aspects of our both contemporary culture and world history. They have explicitly stated that if they're going to create a world (and provide a foundation for the various stories within that world), there is value in including these elements.
I'd also question your use of the words "forced upon" and "tempted" here. Those are weighted words which seem to imply there's something nefarious going on here, or that there is a failure on Paizo's part in going this route. It also seems to imply the existence of some external agency pulling their strings, which does not seem to be the case.
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Got a question. Why do the humans of Golarion, have to be the same as the humans of our world?
They do not, and in many cases they are not. Unlike our world there are things like magic and transfiguration that are based on narratives rather than physics. It is unimaginative to copy paste. Some players do not want more minorities of this world ported across. There is the question of do they fit, and the question of what is the intent and why they are here?
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/oh-god-why
Do the humans of Golarion have to be us? And does our history have to be forced upon it, and the history of third genders across cultures as appropriated by recent trans movements?
It does not have to occur, but paizo is tempted and there are some indications it is happening more and more, so far mostly tucked into adventure paths.
We bring to our fantasy that which we know in reality. So, in that regard: yes, humans in Golarion should very much be the same in most regards as the humans of Earth. It is part of what makes a game world believable despite dragons and elves and magic--the fact that we can see ourselves within it. Humans are the "baseline" from which everything else can be compared, in a sense.
Obviously the histories would be different - so no baseline Judeo-Christian assumptions for example. But they should fundamentally be pretty similar in many other ways.
That, and from a meta perspective, it's not cool at all to not be able to describe or express something in a character that you'd like to, especially so if that something is part of your own self. If all women in Golarion were considered to be property/damsels and nobody respected them, that would be really sucky for players such as myself who really enjoy playing strong, heroic women (because I don't get to be that IRL).
Much has been written on the burbs as a place of confusion, fear and hollowness. The pleasant life is not devoid of anxiety and uncertainty.No person is an island though. You were raised in external experiences. Are you American? Your society is fractured, confused and highly contested over a great many issues.Again, I agree that no person is an island. But neither are we ourselves wholly determined by the society which surrounds us. There is an intersection between biology and culture, which means either one can bring something to the table (so to speak), and in this case, it now seems it's biology.
And yes, I'm American. But my childhood up to that point was not particularly fractured or confused, was not caught up in the crux of highly contested issues. It was a pleasant life in the suburbs, in fact.
This is something you seem to be doing a lot. You fall back on generalized notions of something (in this case, what the suburbs are) and give higher priority to those generalized notions over the actual experiences of the people involved in the discussion who are telling you otherwise.
Much has been written of the burbs as a place of confusion, fear and hollowness. Sure. It's a cliche, does not apply uniformly to all suburban life, and certainly does not apply to what I experienced.
Edit to add: Like I said, it's late, and I have a long week ahead me. So I'll bid you good night (or good afternoon, as the case may be).
We also have a lot of snakes, and spiders, and what is called a "queer" scene.
But to port the queer scene of Australia across? Don't think that works for Golarion. You know, different worlds.
So I am thinking of following Hades... As a steady process of trans representation seem at odds with a sword and sorcery setting and how Golarion was. A world and setting should be diverse, but it needs to work out what it is, and whose interests it is serving if it decides to start to serve interests and causes (not a really good idea guys). Copying sub cultures across to please some over others is quite unoriginal (and a little desperate to be honest). The steady cultural effect of some groups over paizo, has raised one my eyebrows a bit over the last few days.
See, look at that pic, one of his eyebrows is raised.
I am not "no homo" (they are in my games), I am against a tiny minority being ported and thrown in, when it seems the games and adventures should be about something other than ticking the popular box of representation of the moment. Look how inclusive we are, we totally retroactively slotted that minority of our world into a fictional world.
Now before some get furious. I have no demands that any of my minority identities (Jew, Magyar, Australian) be shoehorned in. Different worlds, this isn't and shouldn't be a minority representation contest.
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And here we go back around in circles. You aren't listening. You keep talking about trans "interests and causes". That people are "copying sub cultures across". But nobody here is talking about that.
It would make as much sense to copy across the modern day LGBT sub-culture to Golarion as it would to copy across Catholocism. Correct. But having trans* people exist in the world is not equivalent to importing an entire sub-culture ad hoc.
You are continually denying the existence of trans* people outside of some "sub-culture" that apparently has only existed for half a century. As if trans* people magically sprouted up around then out of absolutely nowhere. As if similar analogues haven't existed forever and a day. As if our flippin' DNA doesn't provide evidence that this is something (at least partially) biological, i.e. incredibly unlikely to have been a sudden spontaneous mass mutation within the last century.
What's the problem with being inclusive, anyway?
Those minorities weren't retroactively fitted in, the higher-ups at Paizo just decided to put said minorities in their setting. You think Golarion is bad, go read the Neveryon series by Samuel R Delany.
Edit: Ninja'd by Tanith and Alice; it took me longer to write this than I thought! :P
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It is a different world! It doesn't have to copy ours, and for members of interest groups to push that it should copy ours is incredibly dull and boring if you are not in those groups, and not interested in their agendas. It comes across as self obsessed, as determined to force a place because of new political wins (that is great, nice, you don't have to change fantasy worlds to accord with the present).
"be portrayed as cisgendered, white and heterosexual, like normal people?"
I am not actually Anglo white, nor do I want every character in fantasy to be hetero. I think sex and gender identity are kind of unimportant in much of fantasy, and their emphasis takes away from other parts of the game, so as to fly the flag.
The problem with inclusion? (1) Retroactively including something new to the detriment of the enjoyment of those already within the hobby. This wasn't here before, or it was mostly hidden. Now it is becoming increasingly pushed.
The problem with inclusion? (2) Trans and others want representation, but much of the real world is not ported. As in, and something an American can appreciate, there are people of dark skin in Golarion, but Africa is not (Mwangi is not Africa, geographically or entirely culturally), Africans are not (Mwangi are close in part, but that is not the same thing or full representation), African Americans and their culture is certainly not ported over. Why? Because it doesn't fit. There is no Africa, there is no America.
Fantasy should be about escape, not copy pasting to appease.
Those minorities weren't retroactively fitted in, the higher-ups at Paizo just decided to put said minorities in their setting. You think Golarion is bad, go read the Neveryon series by Samuel R Delany.
Edit: Ninja'd by Tanith and Alice; it took me longer to write this than I thought! :P
How is it done in Neveryon? Never a dull gendered moment?
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How is it done in Neveryon? Never a dull gendered moment?Those minorities weren't retroactively fitted in, the higher-ups at Paizo just decided to put said minorities in their setting. You think Golarion is bad, go read the Neveryon series by Samuel R Delany.
Edit: Ninja'd by Tanith and Alice; it took me longer to write this than I thought! :P
I wasn't agreeing with you, 3.5; Delany is just about the gay-est (or whatever we're calling it these days) science fiction author out there. The Neveryon series is his sword and sorcery trilogy, and it's just unapologetic. The third book in the series deals with the AIDS epidemic, both in Neveryon and NYC (very post-modern).
It sounds like you should read the series. :)
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It doesn't have to copy ours, and for members of interest groups to push that it should copy ours is incredibly dull and boring if you are not in those groups, and not interested in their agendas.
Apparently only people in "interest groups" with "agendas" want to see valid representations of themselves in a fantasy/heroic setting. My god.
How on earth is having trans* people "copying" reality any more than having women in the setting? In having white people, or left-handed people? We include these things because, surprise surprise, some humans are women, or white, or left-handed. And some people are trans*.
I think sex and gender identity are kind of unimportant in much of fantasy, and their emphasis takes away from other parts of the game, so as to fly the flag.
Guess you don't deal with relationships in your games. Like the married couple that runs the inn, or the chivalrous knight rescuing damsels in distress from rampaging dragons, or your hero retiring to have children with the sweet girl back in his home town.
(1) Retroactively including something new to the detriment of the enjoyment of those already within the hobby. This wasn't here before, or it was mostly hidden. Now it is becoming increasingly pushed.
Playing the world's tiniest violin for these people.
(2) Trans and others want representation, but much of the real world is not ported.
So if we have an analogue of African people, what's wrong with having an analogue of trans* people? You even said it yourself - the culture doesn't have to be the same. Instead, you have characters that buy magical gender changing potions or who follow the doctrine of Arshea. Different, but reminiscent. How is this a bad thing at all? How is this "copy pasting to appease"?
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The problem with inclusion? (1) Retroactively including something new to the detriment of the enjoyment of those already within the hobby.
If including alternative sexualities and gender identities in a fantasy campaign setting is to the detriment of someone's enjoyment, you're going to have to explain, in very clear terms, why any of us should give a damn. The sort of person who acts like the fantasy world they're gallivanting through is being ruined by gay people showing up is not the sort of person who engenders much in the way of compassion on my part.
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Transgendered and non-gendered people have existed in the past in societies and mythologies. Hinduism has Hijira and the concept of a Third Gender, as well as some gods that either are both genders or have no gender. Many of the North American tribes like the Lakota and Navajo have Two Spirit People, which were people that held a masculine and feminine spirits and were held in esteem amongst over 100 tribes of the Americas. The Taino people of the Caribbean believed that Yucahu and Atabey, their creator gods, were actually the different aspects of one genderless creator god. Dionysus was the patron god of transpeople and Loki was known to change genders in Norse Mythology. And there is more about transgenderism and gender identity in other mythologies and cultures. This isn't just a recent "sub-culture of a minority." It's been here for the longest time, just largely ignored and tucked away.
And, honestly, Golarion already has real-world cultural inspirations in it. From Land of the Linnorm Kings (Scandanavia) to Osirion (Egypt) to Minkai (Japan), Golarion already has a great deal of Earth culture that inspires it in varying degrees. So who even cares if transgendered culture is applied to the setting, when so much of it is already steeped in real world culture?
The problem with inclusion? (2) Trans and others want representation, but much of the real world is not ported. As in, and something an American can appreciate, there are people of dark skin in Golarion, but Africa is not (Mwangi is not Africa, geographically or entirely culturally), Africans are not (Mwangi are close in part, but that is not the same thing or full representation), African Americans and their culture is certainly not ported over. Why? Because it doesn't fit. There is no Africa, there is no America.
Have you actually read Golarion? Sure, it's not an exact copy-paste of Earth cultures, but there are significant inspirations from it. Osirion is probably the best example of this.
How is it done in Neveryon? Never a dull gendered moment?Those minorities weren't retroactively fitted in, the higher-ups at Paizo just decided to put said minorities in their setting. You think Golarion is bad, go read the Neveryon series by Samuel R Delany.
Edit: Ninja'd by Tanith and Alice; it took me longer to write this than I thought! :P
I wasn't agreeing with you, 3.5; Delany is just about the gay-est (or whatever we're calling it these days) science fiction author out there. The Neveryon series is his sword and sorcery trilogy, and it's just unapologetic. The third book in the series deals with the AIDS epidemic, both in Neveryon and NYC (very post-modern).
It sounds like you should read the series. :)
Yep, got it.
I take it the clerics can't deal with it?
Daaamn.
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do you think Lastwall knights should be trans, in minor (individual) or major (detachment) numbers? Do you think it would work with the material as currently presented?
LGBT humans are a 'normal' part of humanity, in that a consistent proportion of humans throughout history and pre-history have been LGBT.
Given that, there is no reason to imagine that the humans in Golarion are different in this very specific way.
Each individual LGBT person will want to live their life, and their place on any gender/sexuality spectrum will not be the only thing they find important. So each individual, LGBT or not, will have the same chance of wanting to be part of the defence of Lastwall. Their place on any gender/sexuality spectrum is simply not relevant to anyone's desire to be there.
Therefore, individual paladins will be LGBT, at about the same percentage as they exist in humanity as a whole.
The idea of a detachment of specifically LGBT paladins is weird, simply because gender/sexual identity is not relevant to paladin status or the desire to be at Lastwall. What would be the point of trying to form such a unit?
The existence of LGBT people in humanity as a whole or at Lastwall in microcosm is not worthy of comment as a general statement. Why would there be a need to say that, yes, LGBT people exist in Golarion? That should be obvious. Of there were no LGBT people in Golarion (or at Lastwall), that would be worthy of comment! And a damn good explanation!
So absolutely no need for the writers of APs to specify that LGBT people exist in any microcosm in Golarion. The place to mention it (if at all) is in the descriptions of individuals. Not even like, 'Oooh, this fella's gay', but more like, 'Fred is married to Barney, the squad leader on level 5' , in exactly the same way as you would if the married couple were Fred and Wilma instead of Fred and Barney.
Transgendered and non-gendered people have existed in the past in societies and mythologies. Hinduism has Hijira and the concept of a Third Gender, as well as some gods that either are both genders or have no gender. Many of the North American tribes like the Lakota and Navajo have Two Spirit People, which were people that held a masculine and feminine spirits and were held in esteem amongst over 100 tribes of the Americas. The Taino people of the Caribbean believed that Yucahu and Atabey, their creator gods, were actually the different aspects of one genderless creator god. Dionysus was the patron god of transpeople and Loki was known to change genders in Norse Mythology. And there is more about transgenderism and gender identity in other mythologies and cultures. This isn't just a recent "sub-culture of a minority." It's been here for the longest time, just largely ignored and tucked away.
And, honestly, Golarion already has real-world cultural inspirations in it. From Land of the Linnorm Kings (Scandanavia) to Osirion (Egypt) to Minkai (Japan), Golarion already has a great deal of Earth culture that inspires it in varying degrees. So who even cares if transgendered culture is applied to the setting, when so much of it is already steeped in real world culture?
Well having done a bit of Asian studies, I can say that Minkai does get a bit confused. Sometimes it is Japan, sometimes China, rarely Vietnam, but once in a while a bit Korean.
do you think Lastwall knights should be trans, in minor (individual) or major (detachment) numbers? Do you think it would work with the material as currently presented?LGBT humans are a 'normal' part of humanity, in that a consistent proportion of humans throughout history and pre-history have been LGBT.
Given that, there is no reason to imagine that the humans in Golarion are different in this very specific way.
Each individual LGBT person will want to live their life, and their place on any gender/sexuality spectrum will not be the only thing they find important. So each individual, LGBT or not, will have the same chance of wanting to be part of the defence of Lastwall. Their place on any gender/sexuality spectrum is simply not relevant to anyone's desire to be there.
Therefore, individual paladins will be LGBT, at about the same percentage as they exist in humanity as a whole.
The idea of a detachment of specifically LGBT paladins is weird, simply because gender/sexual identity is not relevant to paladin status or the desire to be at Lastwall. What would be the point of trying to form such a unit?
The existence of LGBT people in humanity as a whole or at Lastwall in microcosm is not worthy of comment as a general statement. Why would there be a need to say that, yes, LGBT people exist in Golarion? That should be obvious. Of there were no LGBT people in Golarion (or at Lastwall), that would be worthy of comment! And a damn good explanation!
So absolutely no need for the writers of APs to specify that LGBT people exist in any microcosm in Golarion. The place to mention it (if at all) is in the descriptions of individuals. Not even like, 'Oooh, this fella's gay', but more like, 'Fred is married to Barney, the squad leader on level 5' , in exactly the same way as you would if the married couple were Fred and Wilma instead of Fred and Barney.
To prove consistent proportion, you would have to show me the numbers across cultures and ages, and they would have to be comparable and consistent across all cultures for which you make the claim of the same levels of trans identity.
So a bit in Egypt, or Greece where we are relying on scant evidence would have to compare to the numbers today. Which simply cannot be done.
How you can claim to know the numbers of trans in pre-history, I have no idea. That is not verifiable. Remember, trans is a new term, and the Lakota did not use the Latin "trans" to describe their people.