I have but one last thing to add to this discussion...
PAIZO > Fred Phelps and his hate mongering organization which dares to call itself a church.
PAIZO > Smelly Dog Turd > Fred Phelps and his hate mongering organization which dares to call itself a church.
I have but one last thing to add to this discussion...
PAIZO > Fred Phelps and his hate mongering organization which dares to call itself a church.
Holy Hosanna!!!
You have named that which cannot be named...
BEGONE WITH YEA!!!
:oP
Saying someone who says, "I don't agree/I'm not comfortable with that lifestyle", is exactly the same as someone who goes and commits violence based on what they don't agree with or are uncomfortable with is illogical.
Attitude =/= Action
To put it into roleplaying terms:
Saying you are "evil" but never doing a single "evil" act doesn't make you actually "evil".
Likewise, saying you are "good" and never doing a single "good" act doesn't make you actually "good".As the adage goes, "The proof is in the pudding."
Speech is an action. Words are powerful and to say they aren't is disingenuous. People can be abused verbally and this abuse is real and damaging. Children who are abused verbally can actually develop physical symptoms. Teenage girls develop eating disorders from verbal abuse.
Words have power and to ignore that power is foolish.
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Let me be clear. I view homosexuality as abberant abnormal outright disgusting human behaviour. Including it in a game is somewhat questionable. For instance, i would not want my children exposed to such hideous material.
You might have a different point of view and i respect that. I am not qestioning any one individuals right to do as they please behind closed doors. But i don't see any need for alternative lifestyles being incorporated into a game.Fair enough. And I hope you respect the fact that I view your views on this subject as outright disgusting as well. If it's that big of a deal to you, you should vote with your wallet.
AND: This thread is dangerously close to getting off-topic.
True James, but this time you're not helping.
We need to remember that fear is a two way street, While it is unkind to assume that every male homosexual is a pedophile waiting to happen, it's just dangerous to assume that homophobia arises solely from evil impulses. A lot of homophobes are just as much decent people as the folks they persecute and what we have in this country is a dangerous dearth of understanding of why otherwise decent people can hold perform disturbing attitudes or perform acts of violence in this venue.
I would suggest that some reading up the topic by all concerned. While Wikipedia should not be taken as gospel it can be a useful starting point.
I disagree, LazarX. If someone were to 'just sayin' their opinion that they found black people to be of the same moral value as the crops they should be picking, most people would and should react with disgust for the intolerance and frankly nauseating opinion. If someone were to casually mention that while all this equal rights stuff is great, but really a woman's place is to be at home, raising children that she bears for her husband, the rightful head of the household and her lord and master, I think it would be appropriate to point out the injustice and morally bankrupt opinion that was being espoused. So why is it that people who reject that hatred, fear and social repercussions ought to be the norm for homosexuals need to sugarcoat their disgust with the other side?
Until someone can explain to me why the freedoms I fought for this country to maintain shouldn't apply to homosexuals, I'm going to consider the intolerance crowd to be lacking in either logic, morality or a basic understanding of the ideals this country was founded on.
Personally, I applaud James Jacobs for taking such a pointed and principled stance despite being a spokesman for a company. Paizo's insistence on diversity is why I like them beyond just the product they produce for me.
Sigh...
Okay, here I go again. Words are nothing one should be put to jail for, except possibly directly pushing for a riot or similar situation to get worse, or telling someone to commit a crime directly. Regarding homophobia and other equally putrid views, I am not advocating legal action. A person spreading such views, however, SHOULD be vilified and perhaps eventually made to understand how wrong his views are. Prison only gives them martyrs. Public scorn and debating their stance to make it public is the freedom-minded way of affecting wrongheaded louts.
Prop 8 was a huge mistake. That so many homosexuals and transsexuals are killed every year by intolerant people is a disgrace beyond most things that happen in society. That politicians make their careers by agitating against homosexuals is pathetic. And the fact that churches get away with calling homosexuality "a cancer on society" and the like, well, if that's what they call morality, that should tell you what kind of moral authorities they are. One specific thing makes no sense at all: Churches and other people opposing the right for homosexuals to marry, and have a long-term commitment blessed by society, that's just so small. Seriously, I can't see why someone's marriage would affect anyone else's marriage at all, each marriage is something between two people. And don't give me the crap about having to put children to the world; it's pretty well populated by now.
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Is it cuz the guy's older than the average adventurer and got a late start on life??
Because of the fantasy stereotype of the wizard being the old man with the beard, I kinda wanted to see the wizard be young, and one of the other characters be the old dude (or lady), like the bard, or even a grizzled grey-bearded scar-covered barbarian, or something.
Thanks to Gandalf, Dumbledore, etc. it seems that if fantasy art shows an older man with a white beard, he's pretty much gonna be the wizard.
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Typically persecutors only become the persecuted after a violent upheaval in a society, like a bloody revolution. This happens occasionally, like what's been going on in Bosnia for generations.
More recently, it went on pretty egregiously in Iraq.
Seeing what had happened when religious extremists gained political power in Iran and Afghanistan, Saddam's Baathists ruthlessly oppressed the fundamentalist majority, keeping his government staffed almost entirely by the moderate (and secular) minority. After 'de-Baathification,' the fundementalists currently in charge of Iran, and attempting to regain their footing in Afghanistan pretty much swept into power, making up as much as 70% of the Iraqi parliament, and purges of the former oppressors led to the 'cleansing' of entire neighborhoods, with, *in the US protected Green Zone,* up to forty bodies being found a day, with torture to death by power-drill being a common method of disposing of the unwanted moderates.
Revolutionary Haiti and modern-day Zimbabwe are also interesting examples. (Heck, the French Revolution has some parallels, even if that's more of a class struggle than a race / culture struggle.) Mossad's very focused pursuit of escaped Nazi war criminals might also count as a representive of an oppressed people striking back at those who brutalized them.
Or perhaps I just brought that last example up in an attempt to Godwin the thread. :)
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I find it sad that the only call for violence so far has been for violence against homophobes. I flagged it and moved on.
Of course, 'homophobia' is a meaningless buzzword anyway in modern society.
Back on topic. People have suggested gnomes would be bi. I'd think elves would at least be bi-curious (they do live a long time) and maybe dwarves for the same reason.
Hobgoblins with their pecking orders and LE nature would likely use it as a form of dominance.
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snip
"The statutes forbid communication which is hateful, threatening, abusive, or insulting and which targets a person on account of skin colour, race, nationality (including citizenship), ethnic or national origin, religion, or sexual orientation. The penalties for hate speech include fines, imprisonment, or both."
Test cases have established that you can mock, criticise and express an opinion. These laws would not, I think, be possible in the US with the famous First Amendment to the constitution, which even i've heard of.
Wikipedia records three cases associated with homosexuality which seem to come down to: You can say the people who wrote your version of the bible didn't like it but you can't campaign for it to be 'stopped'.
Incidentally, you could write a lengthy essay on the biased writing in the last one (a religious website in which the tawdry, pseudo-tabloid writing implies that the elderly man's arrest was connected to his later death.)
Interestingly, Peter Tatchell, a celebrated gay rights campaigner, supported Hammond out of his own conviction that free speech was more important.
I think laws which cut back on free speech are intensely dangerous, even if some of them manage not to have too many bad effects. It is not the state's place to forbid any sort of speech.
As I said: sick views need to be countered in an open debate. Public scorn and vilification of people with revolting views is the best recipe. Throwing them in jail makes them martyrs, which helps nobody.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Interestingly, Peter Tatchell, a celebrated gay rights campaigner, supported Hammond out of his own conviction that free speech was more important.
I think that's the key with the First Ammendment. Defense of free speech is most important when it's not the popular speech. To use the above example, Saying Homosexuality (or gluttony) is a sin is fine and should be defended. Announcing you're going to pray for the gay (or fat) guy is fine. Telling the gay (or fat guy) that his lifestyle is harmful is fine. Saying the gay (or fat) guy should be assaulted, stoned, etc. is wrong.
Back on topic. Races aside, what about national views on sexuality? Galt I can see being oposed as it a) doesn't produce little Revolutionaries and b) would be called an action of the 'elites'.
Amusingly in the (stereo-)typical Drow society, I'd think you could build it as heterosexuality is disliked. Stratifying the males and females even more. In that case, copulation is just for population, and same sex pairings are approved.
While not an issue of sexual orientation specificly, I think transgender behavior specificly male -> female, would be common in Drow societies. I image a male moving into a position of power, but being "forced" to dress and behave like a female in public due to the female driven power structure.
And actually there is RW justification for something like that. In Egypt a woman became pharaoh and dressed as a man in order to rule effectively.
I think that's the key with the First Amendment. Defense of free speech is most important when it's not the popular speech. To use the above example, Saying Homosexuality (or gluttony) is a sin is fine and should be defended. Announcing you're going to pray for the gay (or fat) guy is fine. Telling the gay (or fat guy) that his lifestyle is harmful is fine. Saying the gay (or fat) guy should be assaulted, stoned, etc. is wrong.
This.
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I find it sad that the only call for violence so far has been for violence against homophobes. I flagged it and moved on.
Would it be less sad if people were also calling for violence against homosexuals? Better to say that calling for violence is sad and leave it at that.
Because of the fantasy stereotype of the wizard being the old man with the beard, I kinda wanted to see the wizard be young, and one of the other characters be the old dude (or lady), like the bard, or even a grizzled grey-bearded scar-covered barbarian, or something.
Thanks to Gandalf, Dumbledore, etc. it seems that if fantasy art shows an older man with a white beard, he's pretty much gonna be the wizard.
I see...
And conversely, if the iconic witch character had been a stereotypical wizened crone instead of the hot young thing she is, I expect there would've been a similar outcry?
And if you want a grizzled barbarian, read Terry Pratchett and keep an eye out for Cohen the Barbarian!
(Plus in Terry's Discworld books, both male and female dwarves have beards, and since they wear about a dozen layers of clothing, most of their courtship rituals are discreet attempts to discern just which gender the dwarves in question are...)
Cheers, JohnH / Wanda
Hey guys, another reminder - this is *not* the thread for discussing real-world issues pertaining to homosexuality. Please keep your comments on-topic.
I've removed some of the more recent comments.
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I find it sad that the only call for violence so far has been for violence against homophobes. I flagged it and moved on.Would it be less sad if people were also calling for violence against homosexuals? Better to say that calling for violence is sad and leave it at that.
Bad choice of words on my part, yes.
I find it sad that the only call for violence so far has been for violence against homophobes. I flagged it and moved on.Would it be less sad if people were also calling for violence against homosexuals? Better to say that calling for violence is sad and leave it at that.
Beyond the fact that violence makes the world go round...I think the point of what was said was it's sad that the "good guys" are the ones promoting violence, where the "bad guys" aren't.
More on topic...with regards to male drow being forced to dress up as women to hold positions of power...I believe it's Easter Island, but if not it's somewhere in the south pacific, where creating pottery is a roll culturally reserved for women, and if a man wants to be a potter, he lives and acts as a woman...dressing like a woman, and holding other "female" roles. I don't know that he would be forced to be a homosexual...as homosexuality is handled differently there...(differently as in that's all any of my professors will say...I believe this is due to them not having much in the way of actual data on the subject).
I really like the suggestion earlier about hobgoblins using it as a form of dominance. Very prison politics. Beyond that, I think followers of both Desna and Zon Kuthon would quite often be bisexual.
Fun magical items for potential cross dressers/transvestites of Golarion:
Lapel Pin of Bosom Binding / Broach of Bosom Bloating
A delicate silver lapel pin crafted to resemble a tiny dagger.
A stunning silver broach, laden with fine gems.
+4 circumstance bonus to disguise checks made to impersonate the opposite sex.
When worn by a female, the lapel pin of bosom binding transmutes the wearers chest, flattening it to resemble a man's musculature. If a man wears the lapel pin it has no effect. If the pin is removed the wearer reverts to their natural appearance.
When worn by a male, the broach of bosom bloating transmutes the wearers chest, bloating the chest to resemble a woman's breasts. If a woman wears the broach it has no effect. If the broach is removed the wearer reverts to their natural appearance.
I have often considered making a gender neutral character who walks the line between male and female. How about some feats to help accomodate this?
Feats:
Androgynous: Prereq (None)
Your build and features make it hard for others to decern your gender. +2 on Disguise checks to look like the opposite gender, take 10 on Bluff checks.
Aspect of the Opposite Gender: Prereq (Androgynous)
Your gender fluidity manifests itself in one of the following ways. You choose the manifestation when you choose the feat, and then you cannot change it.
(Male to Female)
Feminine Features: You have naturally long lashes, plump lips, high cheeck bones or a delicate nose. Perhaps your hair and nails are long and grow quickly. +2 on Diplomacy checks made against individuals who are attracted to females.
High-Pitched Voice: Your voice is decidedly feminine sounding and is often confused for the real deal. +2 on Bluff and Disguise checks made to impersonate a female.
(Female to Male)
Masculine Features: You have a strong jaw, broad shoulders or a muscular build. Perhaps you wear your hair short and have some facial hair. +2 on Diplomacy checks made against individuals who are attracted to males.
Deep Voice: Your voice is decidedly masculine sounding and is often confused for the real deal. +2 on Bluff and Disguise checks made to impersonate a male.
Enigmatic: You're mysterious nature both intrigues and confounds people. +2 on Diplomacy and Bluff checks.
Seductive: You are skilled at swaying attitudes and seducing others with your smooth demeanor. +2 bonus on Diplomacy and Bluff checks made against individuals who find you attractive.
More to follow! :)
While not an issue of sexual orientation specificly, I think transgender behavior specificly male -> female, would be common in Drow societies. I image a male moving into a position of power, but being "forced" to dress and behave like a female in public due to the female driven power structure.
And actually there is RW justification for something like that. In Egypt a woman became pharaoh and dressed as a man in order to rule effectively.
Good point on the division there. I suppose it depends on if we assume it to be done as a cultural construct versus actually attempting to be a member of the opposite gender due to underlying biology (ie brain structure or brain masculinization/feminization in this case). Someone can take on the cultural dress of the opposite gender in a ceremonial fashion such as in the case of Egypt's Hatshepsut wearing a fake beard of a male pharoah in her public depictions and statues at a minimum(not sure about daily dress, and there's no evidence she was actually transgendered).
But worth taking into account here if the behavior is biology driven or just cultural, and how the difference therein would play out. And it's also up to folks if they want to assume that biology works the same way in a fantasy world with regards to all of this or not. ;)
Fun magical items for potential cross dressers/transvestites of Golarion:
Awesome wondrous items
Feats:
Androgynous: Prereq (None)
Your build and features make it hard for others to discern your gender. +2 on Disguise checks to look like the opposite gender, take 10 on Bluff checks.
Aspect of the Opposite Gender: Prereq (Androgynous)
Your gender fluidity manifests itself in one of the following ways. You choose the manifestation when you choose the feat, and then you cannot change it.
(Male to Female)
Feminine Features: You have naturally long lashes, plump lips, high cheeck bones or a delicate nose. Perhaps your hair and nails are long and grow quickly. +2 on Diplomacy checks made against individuals who are attracted to females.
High-Pitched Voice: Your voice is decidedly feminine sounding and is often confused for the real deal. +2 on Bluff and Disguise checks made to impersonate a female.
(Female to Male)
Masculine Features: You have a strong jaw, broad shoulders or a muscular build. Perhaps you wear your hair short and have some facial hair. +2 on Diplomacy checks madeagainst individuals who are attracted to males.
Deep Voice: Your voice is decidedly masculine sounding and is often confused for the real deal. +2 on Bluff and Disguise checks made to impersonate a male.
More Feats
More to follow! :)
Voice shouldn't be in there. Otherwise I took Aspect of the Opposite Gender: Deep Voice along with one you haven't mentioned, Marilyn Monroe Figure. Nah, voice is a skill trick or a trait independent of feats. Like...
Incongruous Voice: Your voice falls outside the normal range for your race and/or gender. While invisible or able to hide your appearance you can take 10 on a disguise check to impersonate the race and/or gender you sound like.
Besides, changing one's voice is an aspect of the disguise skill. Or it should be, I seen a guy with a bass-range voice put on a nasal soprano that freaked me out. Because he was my dad. Anyway...
Voice shouldn't be in there. Otherwise I took Aspect of the Opposite Gender: Deep Voice along with one you haven't mentioned, Marilyn Monroe Figure. Nah, voice is a skill trick or a trait independent of feats. Like...
Incongruous Voice: Your voice falls outside the normal range for your race and/or gender. While invisible or able to hide your appearance you can take 10 on a disguise check to impersonate the race and/or gender you sound like.
Besides, changing one's voice is an aspect of the disguise skill. Or it should be, I seen a guy with a bass-range voice put on a nasal...
I agree that voice should be part of a disguise check. What I was going for is that the character itself naturally has a misleading voice so there is no need to change it with a disguise check but it would benefit them if they were to wear a disguise.
Its similar to how druids can use magic to resemble an animal or take on animalistic traits while the Feat - Aspect of the Beast makes the change a part of their natural form.
I suppose it is more of a trait than a feat and perhaps it was the details that threw me and tipped the scales toward feat.
Granted, my work needs some fleshing out. ;)
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Saying someone who says, "I don't agree/I'm not comfortable with that lifestyle", is exactly the same as someone who goes and commits violence based on what they don't agree with or are uncomfortable with is illogical.Speech is an action. Words are powerful and to say they aren't is disingenuous.
The difference between calm, rational talk and action is that talk leads to discussion and discussion leads to insight and empathy. I can make my point, you can make yours. We can learn from each other. When you simply spew hate and fear, there's no opportunity for any of the above.
Now, can we get back to Golarion?
Iomedae: the "late" Aroden's herald. Mistress or beard?
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Personally, I don't like the flavour of including modern bourgeois attitudes to what is (in my campaign) a medieval setting. Characterizing people as "gay" or "straight" is kind of a 20th century concept, as far as I know. I'd prefer to have a close bond between two characters stated and leave the implications of that bond left as an exercise for the DM.
Well... not really. Those terms are modern, but the concepts are as old as the hills, and definitely fit in with at least the European history on which Golarion draws most heavily. The real problem is that our modern taboos are quite a bit stricter than some classical mores that we might draw on. Imagine the uproar if Absalom had a system of "mentorship" like the Ancient Greeks had. There are also a number of historical records that suggest that Renaissance-era Italy had a number of differing takes on same-sex coupling.
In terms of Golarion, I think the right approach is to outline the general shape of social custom. Where are views in line with what the West has come to today? Where is it strictly heteronormative? Where is the general consensus something really odd?
From there, you can start to narrow down some specifics.
For example, Cheliax is extremely strict, but in what way? Do they harshly impose an anti-homosexual standard? I think that's less interesting than the alternatives. Frontiers tend to be anti-homosexual on principle, but more tolerant than settled areas. Both of these come from practicality. It doesn't make much sense to settle a new land and then fail to produce a new generation. On the other hand, when you have to worry about surviving, who your neighbor on the other side of the hill chooses for a bed partner isn't what you're going to spend energy on.
In densely settled areas, questions of sexuality become a part of the public discourse because everyone's lives become more connected and privacy is reduced. This makes for an arc you can follow in British history, for example (which might parallel any number of Golarion nations):
- Council of London, 1102 makes homosexuality a crime
- Buggery Act of 1533 makes "an unnatural sex act against the will of God" punishable by death
- Offences against the Person Act of 1861 and the Section 11 of the Criminal Law Amendment Act of 1885 retain the criminal status, but remove the death penalty
- The Wolfenden Report of 1957 is the first official recommendation that homosexuality be decriminalized and this is carried through 10 years later in 1967.
So, you could easily see any part of Golarion being at any stage of that progression as populations rise, causing what were previously private concerns to become a matter of public debate.
What's unusual about Golarion is how long it's been at its current level of development. It's been 4700 years since the founding of Absalom, which is the time between now and the early empire of ancient Egypt! It's hard for us to consider how such a vast amount of time would have affected a single, uninterrupted culture. Every single example that we have in the West has fallen to ruin and been re-built, both physically and culturally, at one point or another.
So, when you talk about "modern" attitudes, remember that we're a young upstart culture by comparison. We just have higher population density and more tech.
Saying someone who says, "I don't agree/I'm not comfortable with that lifestyle", is exactly the same as someone who goes and commits violence based on what they don't agree with or are uncomfortable with is illogical.Speech is an action. Words are powerful and to say they aren't is disingenuous.The difference between calm, rational talk and action is that talk leads to discussion and discussion leads to insight and empathy. I can make my point, you can make yours. We can learn from each other. When you simply spew hate and fear, there's no opportunity for any of the above.
Now, can we get back to Golarion?
Iomedae: the "late" Aroden's herald. Mistress or beard?
Every single example that we have in the West has fallen to ruin and been re-built, both physically and culturally, at one point or another.
Actually every single example we have period has fallen to ruin in one form or another and been re-built -- western or not. There isn't a single cultural reference that has not undergone complete upheaval at least once every 500~1000 years, if not sooner.
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Iomedae: the "late" Aroden's herald. Mistress or beard?
Arazni also seemed to be part of Aroden's Goddesses Gone Wild home movie.
I've heard of a casting couch, but gosh, can you beat, 'Hook up with me, and I'll show you how to pass the Test of the Starstone...'
Poor Aroden, his dreams of being the Lou Pearlman of the divine circuit, cut short by his tragic death.
* bump*
Cheers, JohnH / Wanda
* bump*
Cheers, JohnH / Wanda
You mean I read through all 17 pages of this thread just for a *bump*?!?
Well, I'll contribute anyway. Regarding the racial attitudes towards sexuality, I like the idea that orcs aren't homophobic. I imagine that through virtue of strength, an orc can do whoever the hell he or she wants to, and if another orc doesn't approve of it, might makes right. In a common portrayal, orcs are looters and pillagers who take what they want. Why should this not extend to sexuality?
Sex is not just a reproductive function, but also (and debatably, more importantly) a social function. As such, several social relations, among them bonding, friendship, dominance, alliance, and countless others, are inevitably intertwined with sex. While an orc may not be as likely to have sex for friendship as, say, an elf, I can certainly see orcs having sex with partners of either sex for a large number of other social reasons, and who's going to tell them that they're wrong?
One thing I find interesting about gamers at large is the sexuality they choose for their characters to exhibit. I game with players of almost every sexual preference imaginable, and what I find most interesting is that a majority of the homosexual gamers I know play straight characters (sometimes cross-gender, but still straight). The converse is almost never true - that is, I've met far fewer straight gamers who play gay characters.
As for myself, I'd like to give a gay character a shot sometime, but I'm unsure as to how to play the role. My gut instinct would be to go all Nathan-Lane-a-la-Birdcage (or maybe Hank Azaria - the transgender elements of Lane's character would be harder to pull off), but I almost feel like that's a cop-out.
I'd almost prefer to play a gay character who's very shy and naive about sexuality in general, with a sort of Michael Cera-like awkwardness about his own proclivities.
'Course, I could always go lesbian instead, but I feel like that's a bit of a cop-out too. I don't want to become a stereotypical lipstick lesbian fantasy trope.
As a GM, I can only recall one time that I attempted to work a gay NPC into a story line. One of the PCs was a female human with very fluid sexuality (raised by hedonistic elves), and the player hinted that she'd be interested in some female entanglements if they were to arise in the story. I wanted to set up a situation in which a lesbian female elf was using a belt of sex changing to disguise herself as a man to evade capture by her enemies. The long-term idea was that this NPC would fall in love with the female PC while in the guise of a man - and then, of course, be unmasked as a female at an inopportune moment in play. I had also planned to breadcrumb subtle clues all through the story that would point to "Hal" actually being "Haleena" (don't remember the real name, but I'm sure it was almost that bad), but I could never get the PCs to bite on the leads that would have worked the NPC into the story.
Oh well. I can always recycle the idea for the next campaign!
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Power Word i think the reason you don't see a lot of gay and bi's playing same such characters is the fact. Gay and bi is still not completely accepted by society. If i may explain my point. One of the groups I play in my main group has a gay guy in. Everyone knows he is gay and is ok with it, but some get uncomfortable if he talks about his love life to much. He has played a gay character before and some of the players got uncomfortable if it happened to much. He rarely does it anymore and tends to play straight characters most of the time.
So my guess is most such gay and bi players have ran into that before and just to avoid causing waves choose to play straight characters. I should note this only seems true of men. No one seems to care about lesbian or bi women or if they play their characters that way, regardless of the gender of the other players.
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Power Word i think the reason you don't see a lot of gay and bi's playing same such characters is the fact. Gay and bi is still not completely accepted by society. If i may explain my point. One of the groups I play in my main group has a gay guy in. Everyone knows he is gay and is ok with it, but some get uncomfortable if he talks about his love life to much. He has played a gay character before and some of the players got uncomfortable if it happened to much. He rarely does it anymore and tends to play straight characters most of the time.
So my guess is most such gay and bi players have ran into that before and just to avoid causing waves choose to play straight characters. I should note this only seems true of men. No one seems to care about lesbian or bi women or if they play their characters that way, regardless of the gender of the other players.
Cue society's double standard.
I run a very rare group when it comes to sexuality. All four of my players were transwomen (one asexual, two lesbian, one "does it move? yes? then sure!") until two left for various reasons (one moved, one got dumped by her girlfriend) and now I have a much smaller group of two transwomen. And me, but I'm usually GM so I don't count.
Trust me, when your gaming group is made up of people already considered to be sexual deviants then the standard straight character is considered not just an oddity but a role-playing challenge.
I've also played with these same players in more... statistically average groups, let's call it. Suddenly it's all reserved, quiet, straight characters to keep from rocking boats or drawing attention. Regardless of what they wanted to play or what characters they've already made it's always boring, dare I say normal characters once your straight dude sits down at the table. PC PCs, if you will.
So I suggest, straight dudes, play that outrageous idea of yours, whatever it is. Enough stretching of roleplay roles and we might just have a broader range of PCs in the field.
Regardless of what they wanted to play or what characters they've already made it's always boring, dare I say normal characters once your straight dude sits down at the table. PC PCs, if you will.
So I suggest, straight dudes, play that outrageous idea of yours, whatever it is. Enough stretching of roleplay roles and we might just have a broader range of PCs in the field.
I think part of the trouble is that straight dudes, if they do have outrageous ideas, don't necessarily have outrageous ideas about sex, sexual orientation, or gender roles. It might be outside of the comfort zone of some, while for others, while it might not be outside their comfort zone, it still might be outside their interest.
I still remember a game I played where the DM (who was doing a lot of professional work in gender roles and queer studies) suddenly declared that all paladins of her love goddess (which is what I was playing at the time {the paladin, not the love goddess}) must not only volunteer two weekends a month as temple prostitutes, but must also be retconned to be bisexual--though if I was uncomfortable with this or not up to the roleplaying challenge, I could retcon my character to some other completely different type of paladin.
Did I roleplay the "challenge"? Yes. Did I enjoy it? Not particularly. Did I think that the "love goddess" had some issues in stipulating the gender preference of her clergy? Yes to that too.
Of course, I think part of the trouble is my extreme dislike of retconning. I'd already conceived of the character beforehand, and if I'd wanted him to be bisexual, I would have conceived of a somewhat different character and back-history.
Power Word i think the reason you don't see a lot of gay and bi's playing same such characters is the fact. Gay and bi is still not completely accepted by society. If i may explain my point. One of the groups I play in my main group has a gay guy in. Everyone knows he is gay and is ok with it, but some get uncomfortable if he talks about his love life to much. He has played a gay character before and some of the players got uncomfortable if it happened to much. He rarely does it anymore and tends to play straight characters most of the time.
So my guess is most such gay and bi players have ran into that before and just to avoid causing waves choose to play straight characters. I should note this only seems true of men. No one seems to care about lesbian or bi women or if they play their characters that way, regardless of the gender of the other players.
Cue society's double standard.
I run a very rare group when it comes to sexuality. All four of my players were transwomen (one asexual, two lesbian, one "does it move? yes? then sure!") until two left for various reasons (one moved, one got dumped by her girlfriend) and now I have a much smaller group of two transwomen. And me, but I'm usually GM so I don't count.
Trust me, when your gaming group is made up of people already considered to be sexual deviants then the standard straight character is considered not just an oddity but a role-playing challenge.
I've also played with these same players in more... statistically average groups, let's call it. Suddenly it's all reserved, quiet, straight characters to keep from rocking boats or drawing attention. Regardless of what they wanted to play or what characters they've already made it's always boring, dare I say normal characters once your straight dude sits down at the table. PC PCs, if you will.
So I suggest, straight dudes, play that outrageous idea of yours, whatever it is. Enough stretching of roleplay roles and we might just have a broader range...
My trans sister definitely underplayed gender and sexuality before she came out in our games. Always male, often a dwarf or otherwise "masculine" approach, though usually asexual. But she was deep in the closet*.
*Somehow I guessed, but I was alone in my family.
Power Word Unzip, your board name is awesome.
One thing I find interesting about gamers at large is the sexuality they choose for their characters to exhibit. I game with players of almost every sexual preference imaginable, and what I find most interesting is that a majority of the homosexual gamers I know play straight characters (sometimes cross-gender, but still straight). The converse is almost never true - that is, I've met far fewer straight gamers who play gay characters.
Most of my characters are gay because I am. Unless I've got some particular concept reason for them to be straight, it doesn't occur to me to make them straight. I would imagine most straight players are the same, but certainly social stigma plays a role. In my short tabletop career, my new character met the party while he was visiting a prostitute. The guy was meant to be an exceptionally crude psychopath, so he just kept going with the prostitute.
Some other player joked about whether or not the prostitute minded, referring to her as she. I promptly, with a smile, asked what made him think the prostitute was a woman. He went from amused to dead serious and immediately asked me if I was gay.
Fair enough, and I told him so. But I imagine the proportion of American males who want never to be asked that question, whatever their orientation, is large.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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From what little I've read of some Eastern culture* There's a difference in definition of 'gay' that would apply to orcs.
The guy 'on top' isn't 'gay' in their mindset, the guy on bottom is. To the guy on top it's a matter of dominance, and the one receiving is seen as weak and 'gay'.
In that sense, I could see an orc tribe condoning what we call Homosexual behaviour, but not see it themselves.
*Specifically in reference to the Taliban and Pushten groups. I'm not citing this as stamped in gold fact, nor am I posting it to offend, deal with it.
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I remember from some long ago anthropology class that dealt with shamanism and such, that some native american cultures (certainly not all!) considered certain roles to be inherently male or female, and that if a woman wanted to be a warrior, she could certainly do that, but she'd be regarded as a man, expected to dress and act as a man, etc.
Similarly, if a man became a shaman, it was considered a woman's role, and he'd be expected to act as a woman, dress as a woman, etc. even to the unusual cases of being married to another man (although it seems that these marriages were often 'second' marriages, and there would be no sex involved). Sitting Bull was rumored to have such a 'second wife,' who was a biological male.
In recent times, the term 'Two-Spirits' has been used to describe native americans who crossed roles in this fashion, but that's a pretty recent invention, unlike the 'hijra' of India, which are a recognized third gender numbering in the millions.
The Vudrans, depending on how closely they hew to an 'India' feel, might have such a sub-population, although, just as Galt isn't *actually* revolutionary France, and Andoran isn't intended to map perfectly to the American revolution, I'd be leery of making Vudra too much of an India-analogue, and Tien Xa too much of a carbon-copy (or caricature) of any specific Asian nation, etc.
That way lies complaints that the samurai, ninja, etc. aren't 'done right,' which is the sort of complaint that we don't hear about fighters and clerics and wizards, because they aren't as hopelessly intertwined with any specific cultural baggage or assumptions.
I'd be more interested in a culture that's interesting, than one that's a wonderfully faithful reproduction of a real culture, so it might be more creative and less potentially annoying to fans of any real-world culture if such explorations happened in cultures that have no real-world analogue, like Numeria.
Power Word i think the reason you don't see a lot of gay and bi's playing same such characters is the fact. Gay and bi is still not completely accepted by society. If i may explain my point. One of the groups I play in my main group has a gay guy in. Everyone knows he is gay and is ok with it, but some get uncomfortable if he talks about his love life to much. He has played a gay character before and some of the players got uncomfortable if it happened to much. He rarely does it anymore and tends to play straight characters most of the time.
So my guess is most such gay and bi players have ran into that before and just to avoid causing waves choose to play straight characters. I should note this only seems true of men. No one seems to care about lesbian or bi women or if they play their characters that way, regardless of the gender of the other players.
I get where you're coming from. I'm sort of surprised to hear that other players felt uncomfortable about him being the character he wanted to be, though. The gamers I know in my hometown are all pretty progressive people; heck, one of the best GMs I have the fortune to play under is a gay man. He tells a good story, he keeps his players involved and interested, and he and his long-term partner welcome us into their beautiful, comfortable home twice a month or more for our Buffy the Vampire Slayer RPG. They're openly affectionate and very loving toward one another, and no one has a problem with that. And when he plays in my games, he can be anything he wants to be as far as I'm concerned - and to hell with the other players if they have a problem with it. (Though, again, he usually plays straight as a PC.)
I realize that gamers are as diverse as any other demographic, but considering we play games that have been vilified by conservative elements and religious demagogues virtually since their inception, you'd think that gamers and homosexuals would have some sort of solidarity as a result of that shared experience - though, of course, the cultural stigma at large against gays and lesbians is far harsher than that against gamers.
Power Word Unzip, your board name is awesome.
Why, thank you sir. I like to think of myself as your last line of defense against a corsetry golem. ;D
I imagine the proportion of American males who want never to be asked that question (if they are gay), whatever their orientation, is large.
It's true that there are some gaming groups in which I might be more hesitant to play a gay character, just because there's a higher macho threshold. But even in those circles, I wouldn't get too much flak for it (and I wouldn't game with anyone who was so prejudicial as to make it a huge deal either).
In real life, I'm a happily married straight man - but in the game world, I can pretend to be anything I want with my GM's approval. That's what makes it FUN. To me, there's no difference between my PC choosing gay or straight and my PC choosing, say, elemental or aberrant bloodline. It's just another character trait.
I just don't get homophobia, at the end of the day. I guess, though, that this is why I'm so often told by my female gamer friends that I do not fit the profile of a stereotypical male gamer - to their delight, evidently. :)
I recently played in a game with my wife where we were twin brothers. She played a straight male and I was asexual. The other people in the group thought that we were having an affair (probably because we are married IRL) and jeered at us for "twincest."
My wife's character reacted in a very over the top manner of denial. My character just rolled his eyes, but never confirmed nor denied. It was pretty fun.
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Power Word Unzip, your board name is awesome.Why, thank you sir. I like to think of myself as your last line of defense against a corsetry golem. ;D
I imagine the proportion of American males who want never to be asked that question (if they are gay), whatever their orientation, is large.It's true that there are some gaming groups in which I might be more hesitant to play a gay character, just because there's a higher macho threshold. But even in those circles, I wouldn't get too much flak for it (and I wouldn't game with anyone who was so prejudicial as to make it a huge deal either).
In real life, I'm a happily married straight man - but in the game world, I can pretend to be anything I want with my GM's approval. That's what makes it FUN. To me, there's no difference between my PC choosing gay or straight and my PC choosing, say, elemental or aberrant bloodline. It's just another character trait.
I just don't get homophobia, at the end of the day. I guess, though, that this is why I'm so often told by my female gamer friends that I do not fit the profile of a stereotypical male gamer - to their delight, evidently. :)
Just go hard gay and out macho them then pick a boy at the brothel
From what little I've read of some Eastern culture* There's a difference in definition of 'gay' that would apply to orcs.
The guy 'on top' isn't 'gay' in their mindset, the guy on bottom is. To the guy on top it's a matter of dominance, and the one receiving is seen as weak and 'gay'.
In that sense, I could see an orc tribe condoning what we call Homosexual behaviour, but not see it themselves.
*Specifically in reference to the Taliban and Pushten groups. I'm not citing this as stamped in gold fact, nor am I posting it to offend, deal with it.
The very similar attitude was present in Rome, probably many other parts of Mediterranean sea. And even partly among early medieval scandinavia (i.e. Vikings). The last one also conects to what Set writes in his post about gender roles: vikings viewed magic as female role and at least according to some sources male wizard would be perceived as feminine and 'gay' and subject to social contempt, at best.
I remember from some long ago anthropology class that dealt with shamanism and such, that some native american cultures (certainly not all!) considered certain roles to be inherently male or female, and that if a woman wanted to be a warrior, she could certainly do that, but she'd be regarded as a man, expected to dress and act as a man, etc.
Similarly, if a man became a shaman, it was considered a woman's role, and he'd be expected to act as a woman, dress as a woman, etc. even to the unusual cases of being married to another man (although it seems that these marriages were often 'second' marriages, and there would be no sex involved). Sitting Bull was rumored to have such a 'second wife,' who was a biological male.
And in some shamanistic cultures there were less distinction between magic as gender roles and instead shamans of either gender were expected to dress and behave as members of the other gender - to show their special nature and their difference from mundane folk.