I feel that everytime a skill gets condensed things get that much less custom. Not every fighter than can jump, can tumble. Not every climber can swim, etc. I actually dont see any skill that needs to be condensed. And on the issue of some skills being more or less important, this is PURELY subjective to the campaign. Boom, spy/espionage campeign: forgery and disguise just got a lot more important. Putting an implicit importance on one skill over another begins a proccess that pidgeon holes the storyworld and makes characters less custom.
Please dont lynch me. I just dont think that spot and listen should be the same skill. I.e.: im almost blind, but i have fine hearing. Im a great swimmer, but i cant climb (ive tried). I beeeeg the designers to stay with the current 3.5 skill break down.
Alternative solutions could give a flat skill bonus for certain classes to certain abilities.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I dont see any skill that needs to be condensed. And on the issue of some skills being more or less important, this is PURELY subjective to the campaign. Boom, spy/espionage campeign: forgery and disguise just got a lot more important. Putting an implicit importance on one skill over another begins a proccess that pidgeon holes the storyworld and makes characters less custom.
I heartily concur with Adam. I consider the skills condensation to be one of the weaknesses of the Apha proposals.
If you're dead-set totrim the list, then the old Storyteller system from White Wolf had two rules for skills I might suggest:
1) Although there were a limited number of skills in each of the game systems, the particulars of the skill lists differed, depending on the anticipated needs of the campaigns.
Jason, you could make the following note in Pathfinder RPG:
The following list of skills is a suggestion, a default. If your campaign will emphasize a particular activity ( an espionage campaign, an arcana-centered campaign, an adventure path focussing on diplomacy and the development of a feudal power base, etc) feel free to expand some skills which would become more important.
2) Once a character achieved a certain level of prowess (I'd recommend, under the 3.5 system, 6 skill points: under the Alpha B system, 3 skill points), then she could announce a specialization. So, a character might have Perception 3 (listening). A character with a specialty would have some mechanical advantage (a +2 ?) when appropriate.
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Please dont lynch me. I just dont think that spot and listen should be the same skill.
I agree. Some skills can be summed together with no real problems (stealth, I'm looking at you), but meshing together Spot and Listen is a bit too much. They refer to quite different fields, and having only one skill just doesn't cut it.
The obvious solution of using different modifiers to represent the various possibilities (a blind individual can have a malus for sight-based Perception checks, but a positive bonus to hearing-based ones) just leads to as much book-keeping and to some more confusion than the standard skill list.
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I certainly agree that some of the condensed skills seem odd bedfellows. The one which particularly stands out for me is Linguistics, which includes Forgery. I fully understand that no one actually takes Forgery very much, but it is a very different skill from being skilled in deciphering ancient languages (i.e. most college liguistics professors don't knock off fake currency in their spare time). Personally, I would get rid of the separate skill of Forgery and have (Profession) Forger, and then leave the Liguistics bit as a mixture of Decipher Script and Detect Forgery.
I understand that, by condensing skills, this allows PCs to "skill-up" without spending the extra skill points, and that is a noble aim (especially for the characters that get only 2 skill ranks per level). I find the lengthened skill descriptions a bit off-putting to read, and wonder if anyone who hasn't played 3.5 (and so already knows the basic skills from which they were dervived) already might find them over-complex. But some issue go away in-game (a fighter can jump, but not tumble, in plate mail). And overall, I'm pretty happy that the condensed skills as they are (except for a few examples like the one above, which seems quite counter-intuitive).
The only skill condensation i thus far approve of would be "Stealth", Hide + move silently. And the ONLY reason i say this is because more often than not theyre useless with out eachother. But even then maybe i dont support it, i dont know, just seriously Paizo dont condense the skills so much ;_; "perception" over complicates a very simple system
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The only skill condensation i thus far approve of would be "Stealth", Hide + move silently. And the ONLY reason i say this is because more often than not theyre useless with out eachother. But even then maybe i dont support it, i dont know, just seriously Paizo dont condense the skills so much ;_; "perception" over complicates a very simple system
I too would prefer not to have so much condensing of the skills. I can see Stealth, and I could see Open Lock and Disable Device being combined, but I see honest value in keeping Concentration, Tumble, Climb, Jump, Listen, Sleight of Hand, and Spot as separate skills.
I'll be honest, some skills are more valuable than others, and rather than folding them into other skills, how about making those skills have more valuable uses? For example, if Concentration would allow you to overcome Dazed, Confused, Stunned, or Staggered conditions with a skill check each round, wouldn't more people buy ranks in it?
Meh, I would be happy with either of two solutions...
1) Leave the condensed skills
2) Go back to the normal skill list, but increase the skill points given to characters (especially the 2+Int classes).
I'm sick and tired of only 1 or two characters in the party having a decent spot, listen, or search check. I personally love the new Perception skill set. On the same note, Stealth makes perfect sense to me.
However,
Linguistics is bad. As others have stated Forgery and Deciphering make no sense lumped together.
Spellcraft makes me want to cry. Spellcraft should have been rolled in with Knowledge (Arcana) or Knowledge (Religion) depending on the class. Concentration should have remained it's own skill.
As far as the original post, Swim and Climb are still thier own skills. Jump got combined with Balance, which makes sense to me actually :)
Good grief, I'm getting quite sick and tired of this whole "customization" complaint. Look. The game is getting fixed. Condensing skills is part of that because skills are just ridiculous in 3e--there are too many and a large number of them are completely useless, so they don't get used at all.
These complaints are literally ruining the game for everyone else. Consider: You can always houserule that 3e's skills system is back. However, it takes a considerable amount of work for a DM to condense skills than it does to un-condense them.
If you really want to, you can houserule that Tumble is back in the game, but you can split it into "Recovery from Falling," "Rolling Around Past Enemies," and "Skipping About Like a Nancy." That way you can customize your character: he's really good at rolling around past enemies and skipping, but he's not so good at not taking damage from falling.
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Is there quite as much need to condense the skill list, now that all skills cost 1 point/rank?
That change alone means that the classes in 3.5, with poor skill points, and few class skills, have had their effective skill points almost doubled. And therefore, have less reason to shy away from those skills which previously saw little use.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Good grief, I'm getting quite sick and tired of this whole "customization" complaint. Look. The game is getting fixed. Condensing skills is part of that because skills are just ridiculous in 3e--there are too many and a large number of them are completely useless, so they don't get used at all.
That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. But if Jason only hears from people who want a condensed skill list, if you intimidate the rest of us to retreat into terrified silence and dark despair, then he might go ahead and get rid of some of our favorite skills, never knowing the pain we feel at their loss.
"Just ridiculous." You know, this is just a guess, dude, but I'll bet you've never played GURPS. I sat down and counted 651 skills in full-blown 4th Edition GURPS. The SRD has 45 skills, after unbundling the Knowledge skill suite. All the splat books have taken great care to avoid increasing that list. in a game with over 500 Feats and 300 prestige classes, a list of 46 skills (adding "autohypnosis") doesn't strike me as ridiculous.
"A large number of them are completely useless". I assume you're kidding here; that you really mean "often useless". Fine, then use them infrequently. No damage, no foul. But if I want to run a character that's spent years poring over obscure manuscripts -- think Danial Jackson from Stargate, I think Decipher Script would be a good way to represent that.
These complaints are literally ruining the game for everyone else. Consider: You can always houserule that 3e's skills system is back. However, it takes a considerable amount of work for a DM to condense skills than it does to un-condense them.
Literally? Ruining the game? Ruining?
Actually it takes less time to condense skills (better of the two, whoop, done) than it does to untangle them (so, do I think this character's persuasion is coming from diplomacy, or from intimidation?)
Ruining the game? Seriously? Like, if Pathfinder doesn't condense the 3.5 skill list to your satisfaction, you'll quit?
If this thread vexes you, move on.
I'm also in the camp of not liking the condensing of skills - at least to the extreme Pathfinder is going.
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I like some consolidations, but dislike others.
I like Listen + Spot = Notice (or Perception or whatever), because then the roll can also account for rolls to smell something, taste something or feel something. If a particular race or beastie is said to have super-keen eyes but be deaf as a post, the write-up can say something to that effect, such as +4 Perception rolls to notice things visually, -4 Perception rolls to hear stuff. 3.X already uses this sort of thing with beasties like the Eagle (+ to Spot during the day) and Lion (+ to Hide in tall grass). It's not like it would be adding complication to the game to do what's already being done...
Adding Search into it, IMO, is just wrong. Listen and Spot are wisdom-based and deal with just noticing stuff. Search is intelligence-based and deals with methodically cutting an area into quadrants and scouring it for clues. Listen and Spot are something animals and humans can do, but Search is CSI-stuff that your average housecat isn't going to master, so folding Search in with Listen and Spot doesn't work for me. (Plus I'm not a fan of combining more than two 3.X skills into a single consolidated skill, especially not three+ skills that use seperate ability scores!)
I like Hide + Move Silently being combined into Stealth (or Sneak, or whatever). Two rolls that are almost never needed apart anyway, and for most Rogue-types end up being multiple points of failure. (Since having to roll twice and suffer the effects of the worst roll just to perform a basic class role of sneaking around is like some sort of malicious curse!)
I like Acrobatics absorbing Balance and Tumble. That fits, thematically, and Balance was a pretty woeful skill by itself.
I *don't* like the Athletics skill with a combination of Climb, Jump and / or Swim. These three functions are radically different, and I don't really like seeing them conflated.
I've heard some propose that Handle Animal and Ride should also be merged, and I don't care for that one either, although I could stand it.
Similarly, I was all for getting rid of Innuendo as a seperate skill in the 3.5 update, but I'm not sure I like the idea of folding Diplomacy and Intimidate into Persuasion. They seem almost antithetical, and I don't think that every Half Orc Barbarian needs to automatically be a master of courtly etiquette just because he's spend years bullying people around and scaring animals.
Minimal consolidation (Listen + Spot = Notice, Hide + Move Silently = Stealth, Balance + Tumble = Acrobatics and Disable Device + Open Locks = Disable Device) is a good thing, IMO. More than that and things start to get lost in the rush.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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in a game with over 500 Feats and 300 prestige classes, a list of 46 skills (adding "autohypnosis") doesn't strike me as ridiculous.
Allow me to Godwin this thread while demonstrating how your rebuttal is not, in fact, a rebuttal:
Some Guy: "You know, it's not right that Political Party XYZ supports the death penalty."
You: "HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT WHEN THE NAZIS ACTUALLY KILLED PEOPLE? COMPARED TO THEM, POLITICAL PARTY XYZ'S SUPPORT OF THE DEATH PENALTY IS GREAT."
Oops. Sorry. I left off one aspect of the syllogism.
Major Premise: GURPS, a popular and well-received game, has over 600 skills.
Minor Premise: d20 has fewer skills, by an order of magnitude
Conclusion: d20 does not have too many skils to remain a popular and well-received game system.
Nazis, not so popular and well-received. Thank you for the opportunity to clarify the distinction that GURPS is not Naziism.
Again, if you don't like the thread, engage in conversation (perhaps by demonstrating how infrequently-used skills literally ruin the game for you, with examples) or move on.
Just telling us you are "quite sick and tired" of us discussing our concerns doesn't advance the discussion.
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"Just ridiculous." You know, this is just a guess, dude, but I'll bet you've never played GURPS. I sat down and counted 651 skills in full-blown 4th Edition GURPS. The SRD has 45 skills, after unbundling the Knowledge skill suite. All the splat books have taken great care to avoid increasing that list. In a game with over 500 Feats and 300 prestige classes, a list of 46 skills (adding "autohypnosis") doesn't strike me as ridiculous.Allow me to Godwin this thread while demonstrating how your rebuttal is not, in fact, a rebuttal:
Or perhaps you could check out his last sentence there, the one I bolded, instead of comparing GURPS to Nazis. His rebuttal was solid. Your rebuttal to his rebuttal was pure flaming troll.
He's comparing the 45ish skills to the 300 PrCs and 500 Feats (many of dubious value, see Dodge, Toughness, etc.) *in D&D*, not just to the greater numbers of skills in GURPS, the example you chose to hare off on rather than engage the actual argument itself.
Compare a 20th level Human Rogue trying to pick and choose among those 500 Feats (he gets to have eight-ish, maybe more) to the 45 skills that he gets *207* skill ranks to spend on, assuming an Int 10.
With skill consolidation folding Listen + Spot into one skill and Hide + Move Silently into one skill and Balance + Tumble into one skill and perhaps Disable Device + Open Locks into one skill, he's saving large, and can easily drop to 6+Int skill points per level and *still come out ahead.*
The rebuttal is still not a rebuttal. I don't care how many skills GURPS has. I'm talking about D&D. We're not talking about GURPS. The fact is, D&D has too many skills and too few skill points as it is. Unless, of course, the fighter doesn't deserve to do anything with skills. Furthermore, we're not talking about feats to skills. The pure number of feats available has nothing to do with the number of skills.
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The rebuttal is still not a rebuttal. I don't care how many skills GURPS has. I'm talking about D&D. We're not talking about GURPS.
As was he, with the reference to 500 Feats and 300 PrCs (GURPS has neither).
The fact is, D&D has too many skills and too few skill points as it is.
And *some* consolidation is useful (as mentioned above, between the overwrought histionics and invocations to Godwin). And Fighters (and other 2/level classes) should, IMO, have 4 skill points / level.
Both would be valid arguments to make, contributing to the discussion, and neither has anything to do with Nazis.
Useful discussion will be rewarded with useful replies. Moaning and wailing about 'ruining the game' will be rewarded with eye-rolls and a complete lack of being taken seriously.
Lot's of things could be said to be 'ruining the game,' but Use Rope as a skill? No, that's just kinda silly, like making a Cooking skill and calling it 'Use Kettle' or a Ride skill and calling it 'Use Horse' or a Profession: Gigolo skill and calling it 'Use Genitals.'
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These complaints are literally ruining the game for everyone else. Consider: You can always houserule that 3e's skills system is back. However, it takes a considerable amount of work for a DM to condense skills than it does to un-condense them.
If you really want to, you can houserule that Tumble is back in the game, but you can split it into "Recovery from Falling," "Rolling Around Past Enemies," and "Skipping About Like a Nancy." That way you can customize your character: he's really good at rolling around past enemies and skipping, but he's not so good at not taking damage from falling.
Your complaints are literally ruining this thread for everyone else.
Consider: You can always houserule that Alpha 1 or 2 has it right, and keep your skills condensed no matter what the final product is. The condensing was already done in Alpha 1, so you're all set and ready to go.
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Actually, condensing skills takes less work than uncondensing them does. You see, if you condense skills, eveyone effectively gets more skill points, so you just add it in.
If you uncondense skills, the bad guy spent too many skill points, and you have to suddenly take away Jump if you want him to keep Tumble.
I'm with Set. I like some combined skills, and I dislike others. I think some people are getting overboard, and are trying to cut the Alpha 1 list down further. The Alpha 2 list is much better in my estimation, but I think it can use some tweaking. I like Stealth, and I like Perception (without Search). I like Disable Device and Open Lock being combined together.
Now, I can leave everything else like 3.5, but I think that there could be some 'consolidation' that makes sense. I don't have a problem with Tumble and Balance being put together (but I do object to Jump being included). I do object to Concentration being combined into Spellcraft (seriously - I hate it. More than I hate wicker furniture, which is to say, a lot.) but I think that there can be some consolidation that hasn't been done in regard to knowledge skills.
I think 1/4 of the knowledge skills can be removed without changing the game at all. I think another 1/4 of them can be 'shifted around' so we can end up with 5 knowledge skills instead of 10 and get more use out of them in game. I think each knowledge should provide information about at least 1 creature type. But, I just explained all of that in another thread I just started.
But, I certainly don't want to see a reduction in the total number of skills in the game. I think about 35 works better than about 45, but I favor some different combinations.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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The fact is, D&D has too many skills and too few skill points as it is.
That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it.
Again, if you don't like the thread, engage in conversation (perhaps by demonstrating how infrequently-used skills literally ruin the game for you, with examples) or move on.
Just telling us you are "quite sick and tired" of us discussing our concerns doesn't advance the discussion.
Furthermore, we're not talking about feats to skills. The pure number of feats available has nothing to do with the number of skills.
Now, you're beginning to hint at a possible reason for your opinion. Excellent. You think there are ruinously too many skills in 3rd Edition, and --while we still don't know why-- we do know that your reasons don't have anything to do with the large number of feats.
(At one point, your opinion sounded like it was based on a claim that some skills were rarely studied. There are a tremendous number of feats that are indeed almost never learned by player characters.)
Look, to help get you started, here's a question for you: Could you give an example, from the real world or popular fiction, of someone "attempting a task unskilled"? How about "attempting a task with only one point in the skill"?
>>Please Stop Condensing Skills
AMEN. :-)
-DM Jeff
Hear, hear.
The condensed list provides minimal gains and only serves to confuse when trying to compare 3.5/3.75. It is just about the only PF change that hasn't worked for me or my group. With Release 2, enough of the 3.5 list has been put back that the whole list should just be restored and the condensed list dispensed with altogether.
It isn't a deal-breaker for me, by any means. But it is (to me) an unnecessary pain in the rump when I'd rather focus on revamped spells, domain abilities, and the like.
-Peter
That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it.
Again, if you don't like the thread, engage in conversation (perhaps by demonstrating how infrequently-used skills literally ruin the game for you, with examples) or move on.
No, the woeful ruination comes from the people who want to undo a great step forward. Like I said, if you don't want condensed skills, then use the 3.5 skill list and character sheets. For those of us who do like the condensed skills, we have to make our own list of skills and modify a character sheet.
Now, you're beginning to hint at a possible reason for your opinion. Excellent. You think there are ruinously too many skills in 3rd Edition, and --while we still don't know why-- we do know that your reasons don't have anything to do with the large number of feats.
Look, to help get you started, here's a question for you: Could you give an example, from the real world or popular fiction, of someone "attempting a task unskilled"? How about "attempting a task with only one point in the skill"?
My reason for disliking the sheer volume of skills is the amount of bookkeeping it requires. It furthermore makes the skill-deficient classes like the fighter completely useless in many situations. If you want to sneak around an encounter, you can't because the fighter can't sneak. If you want to hide to ambush someone, you can't because the paladin can't hide. If you want someone to keep watch at night, you had better hope that the wizard doesn't draw the short straw.
I can attempt a task untrained. For instance, I can try to hide. I'm not very good at it, but I can certainly take 10 or 20 on the check so that I'm reasonably well-hidden. I can also try to tie someone up (even though that's a dumb skill), and I can try to intimidate someone. I'm not trained in any of these things, but I can certainly attempt them. Then again, I'm probably level 1 in real life.
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The rebuttal is still not a rebuttal. I don't care how many skills GURPS has. I'm talking about D&D. We're not talking about GURPS. The fact is, D&D has too many skills and too few skill points as it is. Unless, of course, the fighter doesn't deserve to do anything with skills. Furthermore, we're not talking about feats to skills. The pure number of feats available has nothing to do with the number of skills.
<yawn>
Another fanatic, oh my.
<yawn>
Another fanatic, oh my.
I have faith that you'll catch on to this whole "logic" business at some point in time. Until then, don't worry about it.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Like I said, if you don't want condensed skills, then use the 3.5 skill list and character sheets. For those of us who do like the condensed skills, we have to make our own list of skills and modify a character sheet.
This is a good reason for every single change to the system, from a change in feats, to a change in the number of attributes, to a change into spell points, to weapon speed factors, to whatever you please.
Every decision to change a rule requires a new character sheet. Every choice for backwards compatability can use the status quo character sheet.
My reason for disliking the sheer volume of skills is the amount of bookkeeping it requires.
I admit it takes a very small amount of extra bookkeeping to track Spot and Listen, or Jump and Tumble, as seperate skills.
It furthermore makes the skill-deficient classes like the fighter completely useless in many situations. If you want to sneak around an encounter, you can't because the fighter can't sneak. If you want to hide to ambush someone, you can't because the paladin can't hide. If you want someone to keep watch at night, you had better hope that the wizard doesn't draw the short straw.
Ah, I see. You misunderstand how skills work. The fighter can currently attempt to Move Silently, in the 3.5 rules as written. The paladin can currently Hide.
Both Move Silently and Hide can be used untrained. For that matter, the fighter and paladin can take ranks in those skills, they're cross-class, but not forbidden. If they want to be pretty good at those skills, they can take Skill Focus or the Stealthy feats.
And combining those skills into one larger skill called Sneak won't change that. The fighter and paladin will still be able to Sneak around, by buying cross-class ranks.
Wizards don't keep watch at night because they can't get a continual 8 hours of sleep, and can't regain spells the next day. It has nothing to do with a skills system.
But thank you for explaining your reasons, so that we can engage in discussion.
I have faith that you'll catch on to this whole "logic" business at some point in time. Until then, don't worry about it.
That was just snide and uncalled-for. Honestly, you've been nothing but rude, and I, for one, am exasperated. I'm done with you.
...some hysterical, frothing-mouthed stuff......thus proving beyond a doubt (far better than any of the anti-condensing crowd, so far) just exactly why INTIMIDATION is quite blatantly not the same skill as Diplomacy.
Thank you for proving Chris' point so eloquently.
:)
It also proves that Intimidation should definitly be Strenght based. Indeed, until B.T. shows his muscles, no one will really feel intimidated.^^
Seriously, I am actually in favor of condensing skills. But reading the dozen of threads on the subject, I realize that nearly every partisan has his own idea about which skills should be combined and what should be the definitive skill list.
I know perfectly well that my beloved dream list will be shuned by other fellow pro-condensing. And I would hate to have to adopt some of the condensed lists that have been proposed.
For this reason, I'd rather keep the 3.5 list (fully backward compatible and which i am used to, even if it is far from perfects) than being imposed a new list that would hurt my logic or my old habits.
This is a good reason for every single change to the system, from a change in feats, to a change in the number of attributes, to a change into spell points, to weapon speed factors, to whatever you please.
Every decision to change a rule requires a new character sheet. Every choice for backwards compatability can use the status quo character sheet.
And yet those of us who like the condensed skills will undoubtedly have a harder time finding good character sheets if those who dislike the condensed skills whine loudly enough.
I admit it takes a very small amount of extra bookkeeping to track Spot and Listen, or Jump and Tumble, as seperate skills.
Individually, it's small. It gets to be a nuisance when there are lots of them.
Ah, I see. You misunderstand how skills work. The fighter can currently attempt to Move Silently, in the 3.5 rules as written. The paladin can currently Hide.Both Move Silently and Hide can be used untrained. For that matter, the fighter and paladin can take ranks in those skills, they're cross-class, but not forbidden. If they want to be pretty good at those skills, they can take Skill Focus or the Stealthy feats.
Wow, I can't tell if you purposely misunderstood what I said or it was just accidental.
And combining those skills into one larger skill called Sneak won't change that. The fighter and paladin will still be able to Sneak around, by...
But they'll manage a little better now that they only need to spend one skill point on those skills (given their precious few skill points). As it stands in 3.5, cross-classed skills are really bad, and most monsters are going to be able to spot someone who doesn't have max ranks in Hide/Move Silently.
Wizards don't keep watch at night because they can't get a continual 8 hours of sleep, and can't regain spells the next day. It has nothing to do with a skills system.
But thank you for explaining your reasons, so that we can engage in discussion.
Wizards don't need to sleep eight hours prior to renewing their spells. Even if that were the case, a wizard should be somewhat capable of filling in that role.
That was just snide and uncalled-for. Honestly, you've been nothing but rude, and I, for one, am exasperated. I'm done with you.
She ought not toss what she can't catch.
RPG Superstar 2015
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Please dont lynch me. I just dont think that spot and listen should be the same skill. I.e.: im almost blind, but i have fine hearing. Im a great swimmer, but i cant climb (ive tried). I beeeeg the designers to stay with the current 3.5 skill break down.Alternative solutions could give a flat skill bonus for certain classes to certain abilities.
I like some of the condensing - spot & search; move silently & hide - they are nearly the same methods in my mind and just split my pitiful skill points up, if you can't do one, you really can't do the other.
Now that we've moved beyond the odd skill point alotment from alpha 1, I think this could be undone to some degree if a better skill point system is decided upon.
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I'm not in camp #1 or #2.
I'm in my own camp, except I think there are a lot of other people here. Hard to tell, since maybe my camp is right by these other two camps, and I just didn't realize that anyone was in them.
Anyways, I don't like Spellcraft including Concentration. The first reason is simply that all spellcasters (even the ones with good ACs) need to be able to concentrate. Putting it into Spellcraft (which uses a primary casting attribute for one of the spell casting classes) is poor design. It favors wizards at the expense of all other casters. Maybe I could be convinced that wizards should be able to concentrate more than clerics (I don't think so, but maybe), but Sorcerers? Seriously, they get the short straw way too much. Concentration using Constitution is a neutral stat. Every class needs it more or less equally. Therefore, all spell casting classes will be more or less balanced in their ability to pull off the spell in a pinch.
Oh, and I think Concentration is a great place to put Autohypnosis (if included) and Control Shapechange (which really shouldn't be its own skill, but as long as lycanthropy exists, probably should be included in the game).
I like keeping Spellcraft. I think that it should be used for identifying spells as they're being cast. I think it can do all the Knowledge (arcana) stuff about identifying spells that have already been cast. That's cool. I don't think it should take over concentration.
I know Jason sees the distinction between practical and theoretical application. I completely fail to see it. I think he has done a bang up job on the skills for the most part, but I think this one is...not so good. And I feel pretty strongly about it.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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One issue about joining skills together: it makes them cheaper.
If, say, Hide and Move Silently were combined into one skill ("Sneaking"), it becomes easier for characters to get good at stealth, because players only need to buy up one skill.
Is this a good thing? Well, it's a thing.
When they're distinct skills, the additional cost allows the rogue, who has skill points coming out of her ears, to be substantially better at stealth, because she can afford ranks in both Hide and Move Silently, whereas other classes either need to devote heavy portions of their skill point allotments to stealth, or simply fall behind the rogue.
The same is true with a lot of other highly-valued abilities: Trapfinding and Disable Device, Intimidation and Bluff, Jump and Tumble. The design team for 3rd Edition split them into enough skills to allow "skill monkeys" to be better at them than other characters.
Two free opinions, worth what you pay for them:
Every time someone says"clerics and fighters need more skill points" or "we need to arrange things so that when we take ranks in Listen, we're also taking ranks in Spot", what I hear is "we need to all be rogues".
D&D is a game where you should never quite be satisfied with your current character. There should always be feats that you would really like, equipment that's out of your reach, and --yes-- skills that you'd love to be better at.
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Personally, I like the condensed skills and believe they make sense (and gel with other game systems I've played).
The only ones that give me grief are Forgery being folded into Linguistics (it just doesn't fit), and Concentration being folded into Spellcraft (not terrible in itself, but it and Autohypnosis should be folded in together instead).
I hate condensed skills so much its sort of a deal breaker with me, in terms of whether or not i buy the new paizo "3.75". I can only see stealth (hide + movesilently), and disable device (open lock + disable device) being acceptable changes. ANd did someone say tumble isnt in alpha 2???
See, I'm in the opposite camp (well, sort of). If the skill system isn't revised, with some consolidation, then I'm going to have a hard time going with Pathfinder over sticking with 3.5.
It just proves to show that everyone can't be completely satisfied. I'm okay with a couple consilidations (i.e. - split up the new consolidated Spellcraft and Linguistics) as long as a couple others are kept consolidated (Stealth and Perception, notably).
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I have faith that you'll catch on to this whole "logic" business at some point in time. Until then, don't worry about it.<yawn>
Another fanatic, oh my.
Oooo, I bow to your knowledge. Actually, you can be logical and polite. Stick up your email if you want a debate - I'm not starting a flame war here, since these are intended to be used by Jason for something more useful than that.
I definitely do NOT think that ANY skills should be combined. Leave the system as it is.
But, if you MUST make some changes here's my suggestion:
First, divide all the skills into 2 categories: those useful in dungeoneering/combat situations and those not. Provide separate numbers of skill points per level for each category.
Second, instead of automatically combining skills just include a simple rule for combining them on the fly. Something like simply averaging the relevant skills should suffice.
Third, include even MORE skills to cover even more situations. While the skills in the 3.5e rules work fine as is, there are certain skills not covered.
Fourth, expand the skill synergy rules slightly to allow for more interaction between skills.
All in all this seems a quick and easy solution. In my own playtesting it works just fine, and there haven't been any problems at all. I know that simplification is currently all the rage these days, but simpler isn't always better. In the current game-design climate, I tend to think it's often very much worse.
I'm all for condensing a bunch of the skills. Four skills being involved in determining if someone successfully got past the sentry was way too annoying and clunky. Stealth vs Perception works quite well for me. The original system makes things too easy for the defender since the stealthy character has to make both opposed rolls to avoid detection while the defender only had to make one to notice something was going on.
Merging Tumble and Balance - long overdue. I'm a little more lukewarm about adding Jump, but can live with it.
Disable Device and Open Locks - also long overdue.
Linguistics - seems clunky to me, but putting Forgery in with Decipher Script works for me, at least on the detection of forgeries end of things.
I like the idea of merging skills, though certain things will likely open balance issues with the rogue since he is having so many skills merged together.
The following make sense:
Perception: Spot + Listen (Wisdom)
Stealth: Hide + Move Silently (Dexterity)
Athletics: Climb + Jump (Strength)
Disable Device: Pick Locks + Disable Device (Dex or possibly even Int)
Agility: Balance + Jump (Dexterity)
Knowledge Religion: Religion + Spellcraft Divine (Int)
Knowledge Arcana: Arcana + Spellcraft Arcane (Int)
Handle Animal: Ride + Handle Animal (Wisdom)
Deception: Disguise + Forgery (Int)
Persuasion: Bluff + Intimidate (Charisma)
Diplomacy: Diplomacy + Gather Information (Charisma)
Suggestions:
Some may argue to put Bluff and Diplomacy together, however being diplomatic does not always give someone skill with lying, likewise I would not merge Bluff with Sense Motive for the same reason.
People frequently want to put Strength as the main stat for Intimidate, but I would argue that Strength has little or no bearing on intimidating someone. Kings are very intimidating, but they likely would never even step up from their throne or use an ounce of their physical prowess to intimidate you. Likewise the Godfather.
You could even make an argument to merge Diplomacy with Gather Information. Both are CHA based skills and can be easily merged together.
I think you need to try to keep from merging too many eggs in one basket, if you have 3+ skills merged into one it makes it too generic, and almost unrealistic. (Lots of people who can jump well cant swim) Putting 3+skills into one makes taking the skill an automatic for most classes.
I do not like Linguistics with Forgery at all.
I do not think that Search should be put in with Perception: For one it is a different skill set, merges a wisdom skill set with a int skill set, and makes perception a must have for all classes. (If all classes are going to take it then remove it and assume it is a built in ability of all characters.)
Concentration is not necessarily the best fit with Spell craft... one is knowledge, the other is more or less a mental fortitude skill.
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I like the idea of merging skills, though certain things will likely open balance issues with the rogue since he is having so many skills merged together.
The following make sense:
Perception: Spot + Listen (Wisdom)
Stealth: Hide + Move Silently (Dexterity)
Athletics: Climb + Jump (Strength)
Disable Device: Pick Locks + Disable Device (Dex or possibly even Int)
Agility: Balance + Jump (Dexterity)
Knowledge Religion: Religion + Spellcraft Divine (Int)
Knowledge Arcana: Arcana + Spellcraft Arcane (Int)
Handle Animal: Ride + Handle Animal (Wisdom)
Deception: Disguise + Forgery (Int)
Persuasion: Bluff + Intimidate (Charisma)
Diplomacy: Diplomacy + Gather Information (Charisma)
Italicised the ones I have problems with in that list.
I can see Balance and Tumble working together very well as they're both associated with dexterity. You can't really imagine an acrobatic character with a high tumble skill being unable to walk along a narrow ledge without fear of falling for example. I can see them having trouble making long jumps. Balance and Tumble are much more about flexibility while Jumping favours a bit of raw power and makes more sense with Climb if you're going to merge it with anything (although I'm not sure you need to).
I think the three forms of interaction need to be split out. Just as being able to lie well doesn't mean you can handle etiquette, being able to scare people doesn't mean you can lie well. The confidence trickster and 'Guido' are very different characters and adding these skills together is not a good idea, IMHO.
Not sure the Handle Animal and Diplomacy merges are needed, either. If you get too much consolidation, then you do disadvantage the skill monkey characters too much.
I could see Linguistics being Decipher Script and learn languages as it does seem silly to have one skill (Language) operate on entirely a different basis to all the others, but this leads to a problem of a character having too many languages too cheaply.
And I agree, that Concentration should be a skill on it's own.
Here endeth the opinion.
Rather than condensing the skills, how about grouping them. like in the Iron Heroes variant rules? For instance, "athletics" includes jump, swim and climb. For a class with "athletics" as a in-class sill group, one point here gives one rank in each ability. "Thievery" could include sleight of hand, open locks, disable device. Each class could have one, maybe two, favored groups of skills or you could let the character pick a favoered group based on character concept. Otherwise if you don't have a favored group of skills, you still have to put points in the individual skills.
I like the suggestion of making forgery a craft. Removing a skill isn't such a bad thing. I personallydon't miss read lips. I am still uncertain as to fly. Can't this be handled as "ride" or "tumble"?
I dig the skill changes. I don't think they should be further condensed, but I think this is good.
In game terms, the skills were sometimes a bit unfriendly with the players, and the players who wanted to build a character that could do "X" were sometimes left out in the cold when they played a campaign where the DM didn't add many situations where that skill could be useful.
I would make the same kind of example with the wizard spell list, and the encounters that day. Anybody who has played a wizard knows that feeling of looking at his spell list going, "ok, that was useless to take today...oops".
Now with the wizard that really isn't a big deal...just wake up the next morning and try again. :P
With skills that is different, and since I don't like the option of re-tasking characters (possibly the thing that I find most offensive about 4th...tied with the 45% save mechanic for almost all effects), I think this is a good direction to head. Most of the skill changes make sense and change a cumbersome 2-part mechanic to one...the ones that don't are often a bit underused in the game sometimes.
I think the old list actually hampered character creation theme...since it often boiled down to making a decision to take what is useful against what you envision your character as (as well as trying to guess what the DM might throw at you ahead of time).
I like the new skill list I hope they keep them condensed it maked making NPCs a lot easier and all my players seem to like it
Rather than condensing the skills, how about grouping them. like in the Iron Heroes variant rules? For instance, "athletics" includes jump, swim and climb. For a class with "athletics" as a in-class sill group, one point here gives one rank in each ability. "Thievery" could include sleight of hand, open locks, disable device. Each class could have one, maybe two, favored groups of skills or you could let the character pick a favoered group based on character concept. Otherwise if you don't have a favored group of skills, you still have to put points in the individual skills.
I like the suggestion of making forgery a craft. Removing a skill isn't such a bad thing. I personallydon't miss read lips. I am still uncertain as to fly. Can't this be handled as "ride" or "tumble"?
I'm doing something like this for my own writeup. I created skill groups, with the individual skills existing underneath the group, like your Atheletics group above. When you put skill points in one, you get a "synergy" bonus of 1/2 ranks to the other subskills. You use ranks or synergy, whichever is higher (they don't add). What I like most is that it doesn't change older statblocks, yet also gives those old NPCs "extra" skills with the synergy bonuses, if it comes up.
Oddly, I ended up adding a couple of skills - I added PFRPG's Fly to Acrobatics, added a "Run" skill to Athletics (for Chase Skill Challenges)
As far as true skill condensing goes, I think the best condensions are Spot + Search = "Sight", Hide + Move Silently = "Stealth" and Diplomacy + Gather Information = "Persuade".
For anybody interested, the final skill I have looks like this:
Acrobatics
- Balance
- Escape Artist
- Tumble (Trained Only)
Appraise
Athletics
- Climb
- Jump
- Run
- Swim
Craft
Deception
- Bluff
- Disguise
Disable Device
- Disarm Trap (old Disable Device skill)
- Open Locks
Handle Animal (Wis based)
- Animal Training (old Handle Animal skill)
- Ride
Knowledge
- added "Strategy & Tactics" for fighter-types
Linguistics
- Decipher Script
- Forgery
- Speak Language
- Write Language (being "lettered" is a rarity in my campaign world)
Perception
- Listen
- Sense Motive
- Smell
- Spot (combines Search & Spot)
- Taste
- Touch
Perform
Persuasion
- Diplomacy
- Gather Information
- Intimidate
- Seduce (new, using emotional manipulation to get what you want)
- Torture (new, using pain to get what you want)
Profession
Spellcraft
- Arcane
- Divine
- (Psionic)
- (Incarnum)
- Use Magic Device (altered this to allow wizards & sorcerers to use it to figure out how to identify an unknown magic item with "activate blindly")
Stealth
- Hide
- Move Silently
- Sleight of Hand
Survival
- Heal
- Streetwise
- Wilderness Lore