Adam.'s page

Yepp. It's perfectly ok if you or anybody else starts a [THINK TANK], I have not the trademark on this and don't want it.

But if someone does, he should do it right:

1) Topic Name: "[THINK TANK] {insert topic here}"
2) Topic content: as I said, it should be a rather general topic where ideas should be gathered and discussed

mmk ^_^ lets discuss mine.

The think tank tag was dracodruids ideal and it was a good one lets folks pool ideals in one thread.

What a cruel joke that i have highjacked it then lol

well i like em simple really. I think multiple combat feats per round would really make em powerful in a simple way match it with there BAB

BAB +6 2 Combat feats per round
BAB +11 3 Combat feats per round
BAB +16 4 Combat feats per round

Add more fighter only combat feats

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

Other then that it really is fine adding multiple little +2 and such I don't care for but thats just me.

That was an example, not the crux of my idea; i want fighters to have more unique attack options when using bullrush, aid another, trip, etc.

Like, example, a fighter talent that lets the fighter use Aid Another at range.

Adam. wrote:

Can we actually talk about my idea -.-;

If you only want to discuss your idea, don't name your thread a [THINK TANK].

I created this prefix (following the [DESIGN FOCUS] threads initiated by Jason and staff) to mark a thread where all ideas about a rather general topic (like one class/race/skill) could be gathered and discussed, so Jason wouldn't need to scan about a dozen thread about the same topic.

If i could go back and change the title i would. xD

About Feint: Anybody else always felt that feinting should have something to do with your or the target's BAB?

...Im almost positive the person youre feinting gets to add their BAB and sense motive... lets check the books.

got ya...hummm not sure on that kinda like being pigeon holed a bit but it could work. I just think the new fighter works well he just needs a little something not a whole rewrite.

And i'm so with ya on no magic junk with the fighter.

I dont see how this addition isnt going to add to the fighter; the fighter basicly got nothing new... a little bit more AC and a small amount of extra damage; thats not nearly as powerfull as allowing them to enhance core combat techniques.

uh power attack is a normal feat really and cleave works much better now .

Also alot of your options can be taken anyhow thats really why the fighter has that many feats.

No, you dont understand. I want non-feat improvements to those things... like sundering a guys weapon and getting a free attack on him, tripping several people in a row, bullrushing combined with a charge combined with overrun... Like... completely new improvements that arnt feats.

Well, why not making the fighter THE ONLY CLASS that can take Combat Maneuver feats?

Im probably gonna house-rule away "combat feats" and just treat them like normal feats. i wanna be able to power attack and cleave in the same round... and i want power attack and cleave to work the way they did back in the day. Why did they nerf power attack and cleave?? power attack was the fighters only saving grace!

Can we actually talk about my idea -.-;

Ok, it seems to me theres a way to make the fighter more up to snuff, and keep it flavorfull (No pseudo-magic BS here). And its simple, if a fighter is supposed to be an expert at combat, why not give him the choice of abilities (not unlike rogue abilities in concept) that increase the standard attack options and the bases of the major feat trees, and by that i mean, why not create abilities that enhance his ability to throw down in dramatic and interesting ways? The base feats and special attack options are, of course:

Aid Another
Bullrush
Charge
Disarm
Feint
Grapple
Overrun
Sunder
Trip

Power Attack
Combat Expertise
Combat Reflexes
Two-Weapon Fighting

I think that these abilities should come on the levels that the fighter doesnt get a fighter bonus feat, and of course one at level 1. Ideas on abilities that would improve, or add to the ultility of this abilities? I can think of one obvious one off the top of my head:

[Novice/Expert/Master/Legendary "X"] (Triper, Overrun, etc)
The fighter adds a flat bonus to the opposed check of whatever skill he took. (Values??) So, a fighter who took this feat would be especially good at tripping, disarming, etc. Obviously this is a very basic one, and they all shouldnt be like this. We need to come up with abilities that will improve these core mechanics. Do people understand? (And i dont mean just always giving them new bonuses to a specific special attack, im thinking things like rogue talents but focused on the above list. Deffinatly think about giving the fighter access to improved power attack, supreme power attack, and supreme cleave.

its a good tool for determining the pace and flow of the game, especially because im very meticulous. Im not interested in Exp'less table top RPG.

I was under the impression Paizo was trying to tweak 3.5, not change the game entirly.

Perception is convoluted and messy?

Well lets see, there are bonuses to perception specificly for... listening, hearing, tasting, and smelling. So ya. It actually leads to more pencil work than just keeping spot and listen and search their own skills.

Ok, personally id be fine if there was no skill condensation, but, sense some people are hell bent on it, im presenting what i think are equitable skill condensations:

-Open lock and disable device become one skill: Disable Device.
-Balance and Tumble become the same skill: Acrobatics
-Use rope gets absorbed into sleight of hand.
-Bluff, Intimidate, and Diplomacy REMAIN THEIR OWN SKILLS, for both combat mechanics as well as the mere fact theyre so different. And each of these three skills gets 'gather information' absorbed into it, as all three have means to get information.
-Move silently and hide become "stealth"
-Spot, listen, and search REMAIN THEIR OWN SKILLS. The perception system is just as if not more complicated than the 3.5 version, having to be split and recalculated for listening bonuses, smelling bonuses, tasting bonuses, and hearing bonuses... i think ill just keep it 3.5
-Concentration becomes a wisdom skill.
-Use magic device... dunno what to do with this one

-Furthermore, knowledges could have other skills absorbed into them:
-Knowledge Arcana gets spell craft
-Dungeoneering, Planes, Nature all get versions of survival

Climb, Swim, and Jump all one skill? Err... no. Why not just make the game have 5 skills?

Strength Skill
Dexterity Skill
Intelligence Skill
Wisdom Skill
Charisma Skill

Oo better yet!...

Social Skill
Physical Skill
Mental Skill

Skill condensation/getting rid of ranks is the exact reason im not playing 4th ed, paizo, jason, others, please think clearly and dont go crazy on all these skills.

I know that the crew behind Pathfinder is working very hard to please everybody, but I don't feel the new system comes even close to compromising between the two sides of the skill debate. yes, it cuts down on the first level math headache, but it still isn't player friendly.

I want to be able to pick up new skills without my old skills suffering. There is no way to do that using ranks. If my wizard skulks through dungeons all the time, I should be able to get a little stealth without getting worse at my spellcraft skills.

This system feels like a step in the wrong direction...very very far in the wrong direction. If people don't want to go with the simplified system from the Alpha 1 release, then please come up with a better compromise than this. I saw numerous hybrid systems on the discussion boards before that, while not preferable to the simplified system, were a lot better than ranks.

I for one WILL NOT play a table top RPG that doesnt have skill ranks. thats EXACTLY why i hate 4th ed.

Alright, ive seen how 4th ed handles skills, ive seen 3.0, ive seen 3.5, and ive seen Pathfinder. Ive seen and heard to arguments for and against skill condensation, and i believe i have an argument and a solution, i will detail below what i think.

First, skill condensation is BAD. The more i see it the more the skill list begins to look like this to me:

Strength Skill: 4 ranks
Intelligence Skill: 7 ranks
Wisdom Skill: 4 ranks
Etc...

and Why not go further?
Social Skill:
Physical Skill:
Mental Skill:

This is absolutly abhorent to me, to condense skills too much. Now, there are a few areas i think that actually to need to be condense, but not many, below i will show and explain how i think each skill should be handled, as well as how many skill points each class should get:

(All of these would receive (Int + x)x4 a first level, im bucking the system pathfinder deceided to go with, it is an arbitrary change)

Barbarian: 6 + int
Bard: 8 + int
Cleric: 4 + int
Druid: 6 + int
Fighter: 4 + int
Monk: 6 + int
Paladin: 4 + int
Ranger: 8 + int
Rogue: 10 + int
Sorcerer: 4 + int
Wizard: 4 + int
(See the pattern?)

Also, i think it would be cool to allow each PC/class to flattly pick 2-3 skills that become class skills for them.

Appraise (int): unchanged
Balance (dex): Balance and tumble are rolled into one skill, Acrobatics, considering suggesting that jump be added to this, but i LOATHE the idea of so many different things being rolled into one
Consentration (wis): Consentration becomes a wisdom skill, and ALL classes have it as a class skill.
Climb: unchanged
Craft (int): unchanged
Decipher Script (int): unchanged
Diplomacy (cha): Unchanged. Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Bluff can all produce similar outcomes, but they a.) all do it in different ways and b.) all have their own seperate and dependant mechanics, i.e.: feint
Disable Device: Disable Device now includes open lock
Disguise (cha): Unchanged, sorry. Disguise, forgery, move silently, and hide ALL being put into one skill is insane.
Escape Artist (dex): unchanged.
Gather Info (cha): Consider putting this into bluff, intimidate, and diplomacy; each of those skills has the capacity to gather information in their own unique style.
Handle Animal (cha): Put this into knowledge nature. If you know about nature you probably know how to handle animals. OR, put "ride" into handle animal. The latter is probably the better call.
Heal (wis)/(int): Unchanged except for maybe it being either wis or int.
Hide (dex): Hide and movesilently are combined into stealth. Almost never does some one just need to hide, or move silently. Usually people who take these skills want to "sneak" and sneaking require you be hidden and move silently.
Intimidate (Cha/str): Unchanged except that gather information is also within it, and str can be substituted for charisma.
Jump (str/dex): Unchanged, except that dex can replace its core attribute.
Knowledge (int): Unchanged, except that of the aforementioned change to handle animal. Also think about putting spell craft inside knowledge arcana.
Listen (wis): Unchanged, "perception" is convoluted, unpopular, and messier than just having spot listen and search. (they all remain unchanged)
Move silently (dex): Combined into hide, to form stealth
Open Lock (dex): put into disable device.
Ride (dex): Already discussed
Search (int)/(wis): remain unchanged, but give it the option of being a wisdom skill.
Sense Motive (wis): unchanged
Sleight of Hand (dex): put "use rope" into this.
Spell Craft (int) already discussed.
Spot (wis): Already discussed, remains unchanged.
Survival (wis): Make this applicable to a specific knowledge, (planes, nature, dungeoneering), or keep it as is.
Swim (str)/(dex): Unchanged, sorry. Im good at swimming, im horrible at climbing; its not the same skill.
Tumble (dex): Remains unchanged, but also includes balance within itself.
Use magic device (cha?): Dunno what to do with this one
Use rope: nixed off, see sleight of hand.

What do people think of this break down? Please give REASONS for why you do and do not like or agree with something ive postulated.

This seems totally arbitrary and makes all the numbers and DCs less round. Deffinatly i think the (int + X)x4 for first level should be used. Its not really complicated and helps to make the DCs nice and round... ultimatly i just dont think it NEEDS to be messed with, and hence should not be.

The only skill condensation i thus far approve of would be "Stealth", Hide + move silently. And the ONLY reason i say this is because more often than not theyre useless with out eachother. But even then maybe i dont support it, i dont know, just seriously Paizo dont condense the skills so much ;_; "perception" over complicates a very simple system

I'm curious as to what adventures people are using to playtest.

Are you running Gamemaster Modules, Pathfinder APs or just writing your own material.

Unfortunately due to work and life I've found I don't have a whole lot of time to write my own adventures.

Just curious
Trent
Infinet Media & Design
DigitalDungeonCast.com

My group may be running The Shackled City with the alpha 2 release? does that count?

I feel that everytime a skill gets condensed things get that much less custom. Not every fighter than can jump, can tumble. Not every climber can swim, etc. I actually dont see any skill that needs to be condensed. And on the issue of some skills being more or less important, this is PURELY subjective to the campaign. Boom, spy/espionage campeign: forgery and disguise just got a lot more important. Putting an implicit importance on one skill over another begins a proccess that pidgeon holes the storyworld and makes characters less custom.

Please dont lynch me. I just dont think that spot and listen should be the same skill. I.e.: im almost blind, but i have fine hearing. Im a great swimmer, but i cant climb (ive tried). I beeeeg the designers to stay with the current 3.5 skill break down.

Alternative solutions could give a flat skill bonus for certain classes to certain abilities.

I already started a thread about this on the Races & Classes board but i think this would have probably been a better place for it.

A common complaint i have heard is about the swinginess of rolling hit points. For example, it is easily possible to have two identicle 10th level fighters with a difference of over 20 hit points because of this.

I recently had a friend who felt really gibbed when his character (the party meatshield) rolled 17 on 5d10 for Hitpoints (this did increase to over 30 though after adding Con and stuff) and the GM didn't allow him to re-roll his hit points. The big problem with the current system is often players can be left feeling highly disadvantaged with their character just because a handful of dice rolls didn't go as well for them as the other players.

A couple of possible fixes we have come up with are;

1. Whenever hit points are rolled the minimum value you can get is half the total value (ie 3 on a d6, 4 on a d8, 5 on a d10, etc.)

2. Reducing the dice rolled and giving them a set bonus per level (ie 1d4+2, 1d6+2, 1d8+2, etc.)

3. Giving each class a class bonus plus 1d4 hit points per level (ie 1d4+2, 1d4+4, 1d4+6, etc.)

The average hit points/minimum hit points per level for each of these would be;

MINIMUM HALF:

1d6 - Average: 3.5, Minimum: 3 (Per Level)
1d8 - Average: 4.5, Minimum: 4 (Per Level)
1d10 - Average: 5.5, Minimum: 5 (Per Level)

SET BONUS:

1d4+2 - Average: 4.5, Minimum: 3 (Per Level)
1d6+2 - Average: 5.5, Minimum: 3 (Per Level)
1d8+2 - Average: 6.5, Minimum: 3 (Per Level)

CLASS BONUS:

1d4+2 - Average: 4.5, Minimum: 3 (Per Level)
1d4+4 - Average: 6.5, Minimum: 5 (Per Level)
1d4+6 - Average: 8.5, Minimum: 7 (Per Level)

TRADITIONAL (for comparison):

1d6 - Average: 3.5, Minimum: 1 (Per Level)
1d8 - Average: 4.5, Minimum: 1 (Per Level)
1d10 - Average: 5.5, Minimum: 1 (Per Level)

Of these the Set Bonus option is probably my least favorite. It pushes up the average hit points per level but still gives larger hit dice...

My group plays this way: You have to roll above your con modifier.

I.E.: A wizard with a d6 hit die and (for some reason) an 18 con score CANNOT roll less than 4. You just keep rolling untill you roll a number greater than your conscore, and even then everyone rolls twice and takes the highest score. So lets say that wizard rolls a 4 and a 6, he gets the six.

I don't know about the rest of the forum, but I'd like to see the skills condensed a little bit more (I'd especially like to see the skills that were separated in Alpha 2 re-condensed). I liked thieving and deception a lot (a liar can usually spot a liar).

I know they aren't particularly related, but could swim possibly be merged with climb? Swim seems like a little bit silly of a skill because, in most games I've played, nobody buys it, or they buy one rank in it just to say that they know how to do it. same with climb. If they were merged, they'd at least sort of approach being worth taking. with all the magic in the game, it's not like it's a balance issue.

What do the rest of you think? Anything else that should be merged? Agree/Disagree?

I disagree completely, as a matter of fact, im not even in favor of alpha 1 skill condensation. I think it detracts from the customization of the game, and i dont think certain skills exactly relate to themselves so much, i really dont see an issue with skills and wish people would stop messing with them.

Charisma is needed for all of the Paladin's special abilities EXCEPT spell-casting, which requires wisdom to the point where you must have a mod to start getting spells at the proper levels.

I agree, make their magic Charisma based, and and also allow them to cast spontaniously, as per the sorcerer. I think making smite a per encounter ability would also greatly increase them.