I really like what Paizo are doing, but I am still not sold on PathFinder as a 'better' version of Dungeons & Dragons 3.5, which is what it surely must aim to be. That said, I thought it would be worth raising this point for discussion from the Fighter entry in the Alpha 2 Release:
Blades, Heavy - Long Sword
Blades, Light - Short Sword
Axes - Battle Axe, Hand Axe, Light Pick, Heavy Pick
Hammers - Light Hammer, Heavy Hammer, Light mace, Heavy Mace
Bows - Short Bow, Long Bow
Crossbow - Light Crossbow, Heavy Crossbow
Spears - Short Spear, Long Spear
To put it simply, I really think it would be wise to integrate the 'Light' and 'Heavy' Blades groups. It's just going to be a pain in the ass otherwise, with Fighters who want to use Sword and Dagger or Long Sword and Short Sword being penalised, whilst Fighters wanting to use Long Sword and Scimitar are given the green light.
Just use a 'Swords' heading.
Whilst we're on the subject, any chance of making fighting with two weapons a Standard Action?
I concur, up to a point. There is a distinct difference in the heft and use of light and heavy blades. I truly lament the demise of the reach and damage specification modifiers of aD&D for that exact reason. Speaking from experience, there is a DEFINITE disparity between a dagger, a rapier and and a bastard sword. Grouping all three of these blades into a single group would be folly.
What I suggest instead is to hearken back to the days of 2nd Edition, and modify and simplify that weapons table in order to make the physical combat classes or distinctive in their own right once again.
Maybe I'm nostalgic for the good old days of RPing, when it was more about actually playing a character instead of stat-whoring......
Aaron, you are my personal hero right now... ;*)
Aaron Armstrong wrote:
Speaking from experience, there is a DEFINITE disparity between a dagger, a rapier and and a bastard sword. Grouping all three of these blades into a single group would be folly.
Of course (though, to be fair, the D20 Dagger, Rapier and Bastard Sword hardly seem to correspond to any particular historical or real life weapons), but that's also true of Hand Axe, Battle Axe and Great Axe, yet these are happily grouped together for PathFinder. We're not looking at reality simulation here, but logical implementation of abstracted combat rules.
Of course, I agree with you about stat whoring, which is why I prefer AD&D to any version of D20, but this is hardly the place for us to discuss that. D20 is what it is.
Heavy blades: bastard sword, falchion, greatsword, longsword, scimitar, scythe, and two-bladed sword.
Light Blades: dagger, kama, kukri, rapier, sickle, and short sword.
Considering the size and weight differences between the heavy and light blades, I don't think all blades should be part of a single weapon group.
I'm wondering if what makes a heavy weapon the possibility or the necessity to use them as a two-handed weapon.
I'm also curious about the fate of Small greatswords and Large daggers. I never used that 3.5 change in my games.
But you're fine with all axes being part of the same group? I would say that is quite the double standard.
Aaron Armstrong wrote: Maybe I'm nostalgic for the good old days of RPing, when it was more about actually playing a character instead of stat-whoring...... Yeah, the extent to which the game has become a mathematical computation makes it easier to understand... but ultimately has put the fluff burden entirely on the DM's shoulders.
I'm all for more abilities that aren't stat based.
Especially if it cuts down on the "but... but... I have a +X!!!" whining
Matthew_ wrote: But you're fine with all axes being part of the same group? I would say that is quite the double standard. Or rather... double handled...
Sorry, bad joke. Just trying to ease the tension commonly found in forums...
Heh, heh. I'm new here, so I haven't noticed any tensions, but I can well imagine them appearing at a (very interesting) time like this. For what it's worth, my tongue was firmly in my cheek.
Matthew_ wrote:
Of course (though, to be fair, the D20 Dagger, Rapier and Bastard Sword hardly seem to correspond to any particular historical or real life weapons), but that's also true of Hand Axe, Battle Axe and Great Axe, yet these are happily grouped together for PathFinder. We're not looking at reality simulation here, but logical implementation of abstracted combat rules.
Of course, I agree with you about stat whoring, which is why I prefer AD&D to any version of D20, but this is hardly the place for us to discuss that. D20 is what it is.
Interesting that you should say that. Dagger is a generic term for knife, which has been the preferred method of killing people for millennium before the advent of firearms. Rapiers are known for their use for at least 2 centuries (admittedly mostly in Europe) and the bastard sword CERTAINLY has historical precedent. It is the step-cousin (Hand-and-a-half sword) to the Zweihander, the Greatsword, the Claymore and the Katana. Not nearly as popular as the aforementioned weapons, but there nonetheless. I'm not as certain as to the axes you mentioned.
Also, isn't logic based upon the abstract concept of ones' perception of reality? Can't abstract combat rules that contain modifiers for statistics such as BAB, enchantments and personal characteristics also include weapon modifiers apart from situational concealment, higher ground or sickness/fear?
Aaron Armstrong wrote:
Interesting that you should say that. Dagger is a generic term for knife, which has been the preferred method of killing people for millennium before the advent of firearms. Rapiers are known for their use for at least 2 centuries (admittedly mostly in Europe) and the bastard sword CERTAINLY has historical precedent. It is the step-cousin (Hand-and-a-half sword) to the Zweihander, the Greatsword, the Claymore and the Katana. Not nearly as popular as the aforementioned weapons, but there nonetheless.
How long is a dagger blade? How wide? What shape? curved or straight? What is the weight of a dagger? What is its hilt furniture like? is it a pugio or a poignard? There are many possible permutations. A Long Sword may have a 24" blade, a 36" blade or something inbetween and weigh anything from 2-3 lbs. Is it a Spatha, a Semi Spatha, pointed, rounded or what [no piercing damage, you say...]? It's certainly not a 'Long Sword' as the word is most commonly used nowadays, which might more easily be applied to he D20 Bastard Sword. The word Rapier is used of all manner of very different looking weapons, and I'm not at all convinced that D20 depictions correspond to a real world example.
Perhaps you see D20 weapons as having very precise real world analogues, and I can understand that, though I don't agree with it. There's a rather good article on weapon nomenclature that you might have seen before here: Sword forms
Aaron Armstrong wrote:
I'm not as certain as to the axes you mentioned.
Same problem as above. They come in all shapes and sizes and there is little to no indication as to what D20 has in mind when it uses terms like 'Hand Axe', 'Battle Axe', 'Dwarven War Axe' or 'Great Axe', though there are some highly improbable drawings. ;) About the only thing that can be said with reasonable surety is that each is bigger than its predecessor.
Aaron Armstrong wrote:
Also, isn't logic based upon the abstract concept of ones' perception of reality? Can't abstract combat rules that contain modifiers for statistics such as BAB, enchantments and personal characteristics also include weapon modifiers apart from situational concealment, higher ground or sickness/fear?
They certainly can, but you have to draw the line somewhere. If Picks and Axes of all sizes, lengths, weights and blade shapes (both single and double headed, not to mention combinations) are together treated as part of the same group, I see no reason why Daggers and Swords shouldn't be. Really, a Fighter should be able to handle a specific individual sword he is familiar with, through long practice and use, better than a random sword he picks up from a local weapon smith, but D20 treats them both the same (unless your DM likes to make use of Circumstance Modifiers a lot).
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