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I had been discussing 1.0 half-elves vs. humans on another thread, but thought it would be good to start a new thread for 1.1 issues.
OK, so taking away the half-elves' free weapon proficiency removes some problems with power-gaming (or making them a better choice than humans), but giving it to humans instead swings the pendulum too far the other way.
Why would anyone now play a half-elf? For low-light vision and a Perception bonus?
Humans now get an extra skill (and are trained in it, unlike half-elves), and effectively 3 feats, since the new Weapon Training ability gives them a free Weapon Proficiency feat (Martial or Exotic, depending on how you interpret the rules).
I had just made up a half-elf fighter character for a playtest, and now it makes no sense to keep it a half-elf. I'll do much better as a human now.
Half-elves need something else to make them a viable choice. Perhaps giving both humans and half-elves Weapon Training, but restrict it to Martial weapons only? Or pick a specific weapon as a "racial" weapon like the dwarven waraxe or orcish double axe (though I don't know what weapon that would be - maybe longsword?) At least give them back the 3.5 Diplomaccy bonus. With Gather Information now rolled into Diplomacy, why can't half-elves get their old bonus?
Come on half-elf lovers, let's figure out a way to make them worth playing! :)
My suggestion would be to give them the feat Martial Weapon Proficiency butlimit it to long bows, short bows, long sword and raper as a link to their elven side. Without something here they become the only race without automatic weapon proficiencies.
I can also see a racial bonus of +2 to diplomacy as a link back to the 3.5 SRD.
Doug
Half-elves were always a disappointing race in 3.5 and I like the +2 to any ability score schtick but with humans getting the same bonus it pretty much nerfs the half-elf once again.
I also don't see why humans should get proficiency in any one weapon, something seems off to me there. Perhaps Weapon Focus with any weapon from the simple weapons list? What's to stop every human to lug around an exotic weapon at 1st level?
I think to redress things humans should lose the +2 ability boost and half-elves should keep it.
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Exotic Weapons aren't that powerful. The only exotic weapons that I ever saw being used in games were spiked chains and dwarven waraxes (because of weapon familiarity). The main difference between martial and exotic weapons is usually one point of average damage. I kind of like the new rule as it encourages characters to take exotic weapons.
But I agree that now halfelves are a bit on the weak side. They should either get their skill bonuses back or gain the elven weapon familiarity (or maybe get to choose between them, for half-elven bards, the weapon familiarity is rather useless, but the diplomacy bonus would be really useful.)
Exotic Weapons aren't that powerful. The only exotic weapons that I ever saw being used in games were spiked chains and dwarven waraxes (because of weapon familiarity). The main difference between martial and exotic weapons is usually one point of average damage. I kind of like the new rule as it encourages characters to take exotic weapons.
But I agree that now halfelves are a bit on the weak side. They should either get their skill bonuses back or gain the elven weapon familiarity (or maybe get to choose between them, for half-elven bards, the weapon familiarity is rather useless, but the diplomacy bonus would be really useful.)
I'm not so sure about the diplomacy bonus (although I don't necessarily agree with it for the elves, either), but I think that a half-elf character should be able to choose between the elven weapon familiarity or the human weapon proficiency, which I see as the difference between being raised more elf-like or more human-like.
I think the half-elf and human are pretty close now.
Half-Elves get:
+2 perception
+2 saves vs. enchantments
low-light vision
1 skill as a class skill (but not trained)
Humans get:
1 Feat
1 skill trained
1 Weapon Proficiency
An additional +2 to Diplomacy would be ok I suppose, but I think they're pretty balanced now.
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I'm not so sure about the diplomacy bonus (although I don't necessarily agree with it for the elves, either), but I think that a half-elf character should be able to choose between the elven weapon familiarity or the human weapon proficiency, which I see as the difference between being raised more elf-like or more human-like.Exotic Weapons aren't that powerful. The only exotic weapons that I ever saw being used in games were spiked chains and dwarven waraxes (because of weapon familiarity). The main difference between martial and exotic weapons is usually one point of average damage. I kind of like the new rule as it encourages characters to take exotic weapons.
But I agree that now halfelves are a bit on the weak side. They should either get their skill bonuses back or gain the elven weapon familiarity (or maybe get to choose between them, for half-elven bards, the weapon familiarity is rather useless, but the diplomacy bonus would be really useful.)
I like the Diplomacy bonus, which I think was described in 3.5 as having to deal between 2 cultures, so it gives them some insight into different points of view.
But I REALLY like your idea about choosing Elven or Human weapon proficiencies. Castles & Crusades does a similar thing with half-elves, where they get different abilities based on whether they're more elf or more human, like how half-elves in Tolkien had to choose whether to live forever like elves or become more human and live a human lifespan.
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I think the half-elf and human are pretty close now.
Half-Elves get:
+2 perception
+2 saves vs. enchantments
low-light vision
1 skill as a class skill (but not trained)Humans get:
1 Feat
1 skill trained
1 Weapon ProficiencyAn additional +2 to Diplomacy would be ok I suppose, but I think they're pretty balanced now.
Ignoring the skill similarity, I don't think +2 perception, +2 saves vs. enchantments and low-light vision are in any way balanced with 1 Feat and 1 Weapon Proficiency (essentially 2 feats).
Ignoring the skill similarity, I don't think +2 perception, +2 saves vs. enchantments and low-light vision are in any way balanced with 1 Feat and 1 Weapon Proficiency (essentially 2 feats).
Under the alpha rules characters now gain feats faster, so that waters down the value of a feat a little bit. Also, I consider the weapon proficiency feat a pretty weak feat since many classes already give you prociencies and even simple weapons are close to as good as a martial or exotic weapon.
I can see where you think the abilities aren't equivalent, but I think it's close enough I wouldn't feel cheated playing a half-elf as things currently stand.
Jup, humans seem to be overpowered.
... at least in comparison to the half-elves.
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Ignoring the skill similarity, I don't think +2 perception, +2 saves vs. enchantments and low-light vision are in any way balanced with 1 Feat and 1 Weapon Proficiency (essentially 2 feats).
Under the alpha rules characters now gain feats faster, so that waters down the value of a feat a little bit. Also, I consider the weapon proficiency feat a pretty weak feat since many classes already give you prociencies and even simple weapons are close to as good as a martial or exotic weapon.
I can see where you think the abilities aren't equivalent, but I think it's close enough I wouldn't feel cheated playing a half-elf as things currently stand.
That's a good point. I've been looking at this from the perspective of character generation (because I created a half-elf fighter for an upcoming playtest game). Over the course of a career, you're probably right, but at character generation, that's effectively three feats a human gets, compared to the one everyone else gets.
I also don't think any simple or martial weapons are as good as a bastard sword. No one-handed weapon, simple or martial, does 1d10 damage.
That's a good point. I've been looking at this from the perspective of character generation (because I created a half-elf fighter for an upcoming playtest game). Over the course of a career, you're probably right, but at character generation, that's effectively three feats a human gets, compared to the one everyone else gets.I also don't think any simple or martial weapons are as good as a bastard sword. No one-handed weapon, simple or martial, does 1d10 damage.
No argument about the bastard sword being better, but it is ony a 1d10 vs. a 1d8 for something like a morning star. If I were playing a rogue or ranger I'd value the +2 perception and low-light vision over the weapon proficiency.
Witness the power of the heavy jovar:
3d6/18-20 x2 critAnd they get proficiency in it for free now?
Awesome.
Actually, I wish it was clear they only get martial proficiency, really. EWPs are too useful to give away for free, IMO.
Heh, wow. What broken supplement did the heavy jovar come from? The only jovar I could find (planar handbook) does 2d6 damage with an 18-20/x2 crit threat..same as a greatsword.
I still don't see exotic weapons being all that much better and if you don't allow the taking of EWP as part of the free weapon proficiency then the ability becomes useless for any human character who gets martial weapon proficiencies as part of his class.
This may get a little complicated but try this, if a Human (or Half-elf if they end up retaining the same ability) does take a class with marital weapons it could convert into Weapon Focus.
A Human Wizard could snag a Long Bow instead of the normal crossbow, while a Human fighter would have Weapon Focus(Long Bow). If the Wizard multiclassed into fighter the Weapon Training would switch to Weapon Focus. It's not quite a fair exchange since a proficiency basically grants a +4 attack bonus (to cancel the -4), while Weapon Focus only gives a +1 bonus.
I'd also like to point out that other races that currently gain free weapon proficiencies (dwarves with their axes and hammers) gain no benefit from those by taking a class like fighter (their favored).
"marital weapons"? sounds kinky... jk ;)
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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This may get a little complicated but try this, if a Human (or Half-elf if they end up retaining the same ability) does take a class with marital weapons it could convert into Weapon Focus.
A Human Wizard could snag a Long Bow instead of the normal crossbow, while a Human fighter would have Weapon Focus(Long Bow). If the Wizard multiclassed into fighter the Weapon Training would switch to Weapon Focus. It's not quite a fair exchange since a proficiency basically grants a +4 attack bonus (to cancel the -4), while Weapon Focus only gives a +1 bonus.
I'd also like to point out that other races that currently gain free weapon proficiencies (dwarves with their axes and hammers) gain no benefit from those by taking a class like fighter (their favored).
Couple of things I'd like to address in your post Dorje.
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I think you guys might be missing the weapon familiarity thing here: All it says for races like Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, etc. is that they treat them like martial weapons, rather than exotic, so they still need the Martial Weapon proficiency to use them.
That's different from actually getting a freebie proficiency.
Anyway, I'm not that keen on the free weapon proficiency for humans. Having a feat, skill, and a free +2 stat was adequate to make them a really good choice. Right now half Elves sort of suck...
Maybe half-Elves could snag a single "racial" exotic weapon from their Elven ancestry and treat it as martial, and pick one of the Normal Elven weapons (Bow, rapier, longsword, etc.) and get free proficiency in it.
I also like the idea of diplomacy for Half-Elves, although that tends to pigeon-hole them into the "negotiator" role for any party.
I think you guys might be missing the weapon familiarity thing here: All it says for races like Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, etc. is that they treat them like martial weapons, rather than exotic, so they still need the Martial Weapon proficiency to use them.
That's different from actually getting a freebie proficiency.
That was true for Dwarves in 3.5, but in PRPG Dwarves, Elves, Half-Orcs, and Halflings get some weapons proficiencies for free (Elves already did).
I would support making the feat Martial, or Exotic if you already have Martial at 1st level. However, one of the best benefits, RP-wise, for this feat is to let Varisians have Bladed Scarf at first level (currently impossible non-Bards with a +0 Base Attack Bonus).
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I think a better way to show half-elven adaptability than a weapon bonus is to let the player choose at creation whether they've been more influenced by their elven or human heritage.
If raised primarily by elven principles, give them elven weapon proficiencies & elven language choices.
If raised primarily by human principles, give them the human skill bonus & the human language choices.
The additional weapon choice being moved from half-elves to humans seemed unnecessary. Humans get enough for being human as it is, IMO.
/ali
Witness the power of the heavy jovar:
3d6/18-20 x2 critAnd they get proficiency in it for free now?
Awesome.
Actually, I wish it was clear they only get martial proficiency, really. EWPs are too useful to give away for free, IMO.
One broken weapon doesn't mean that a free EWP is broken. (where's the heavy jovar from, anyway?)
I could invent a weapon that does 10d6 and has a crit range of 2-20/x10 and make it an exotic weapon. Suddenly, exotic weapon proficiency is broken?
the fact that this discussion seems split fifty/fifty means we have traveled far. I feel that giving the half elf a weapon prof like the human (or even the elves) will unbalance it with the human. maybe without it, its just a tad weak. humans dont get a lot of flavor abilities, I feel that low light vision is equal to a very strong feat (which has decreased value in this game) and elven immunities and bonuses to perception, seems a far balance to a free proficiency. (both sound like a feat to me)
lets give the half elves a bonus to Diplomacy and be done with this
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Hmm, you want you character to use a closed content exotic weapon that costs 500 GP? You won't get it in your hands most likely until 3rd level. a Heavy weapon is apparently made out of gold or platinium (or uranium) no idea how much more that is. (and I think it goes to 2d8, not 3d6)
Meanwhile I'll be using my falchion (2d4 18-20) that I've had since first level. Or maybe just my bastard sword I was able to purchase at 1st level. For the cost of the 'heavy' weapon, I'll likely have +1 armor, maybe even +1 sword.
Oh wait, I know, how about this.
Elven bladebow of death (exotic weapon) cost 10 GP weight 6 lbs, fires arrows for 2d10 points of damage, plus 1d4 fire from the friction or 'rail gun' effect. Now this weapon can be used by elves. Does this make elves broken? No. It makes the DM crazy enough to allow it in the game broken. Same thing goes for Heavy Jovar.
it is impossible to balance everything in d20 vs pathfinder. Best to find the holes in the SRD and close them.
Humans get a free weapon. Elves get free weapons. The half-breed of humans and elves gets... a bonus to diplomacy?
As it stands a player has more incentive to pick either Elf or Human over the Half-Elf. The race needs something more then just a bonus to diplomacy checks. Don't forget Elves currently have Unnatural Beauty, which is basically a +5 bonus to diplomacy (sans gather information). While that is subject to the DM it is still a rather strong ability.
Perhaps it would be better to move Unnatural Beauty to the half-elf, along with one elf weapon proficiency. And allow that proficiency to convert to Weapon Focus for classes that already use martial weapons. That would make the half-elf a solid option.
Humans get a free weapon. Elves get free weapons. The half-breed of humans and elves gets... a bonus to diplomacy?
Now that you point it out, it does make perfect sense.
For me, giving half-elves some weapon was never a question (humans get a free proficiency in my games since forever, so both already got a free weapon). But what is the middle way between a fixed set of weapons and a single free weapon?
I personally go with the same as humans.
And allow that proficiency to convert to Weapon Focus for classes that already use martial weapons. That would make the half-elf a solid option.
Now you've lost me. Can't see that as the mix between elven swords and bows and human one weapon for all.
Hmm, you want you character to use a closed content exotic weapon that costs 500 GP? You won't get it in your hands most likely until 3rd level. a Heavy weapon is apparently made out of gold or platinium (or uranium) no idea how much more that is. (and I think it goes to 2d8, not 3d6)
Don't you need an extra proficiency for heavy weapons?
Anyway, even if the stuff was free, the fact remains that broken exotic weapons don't mean that exotic weapon proficiency itself is broken, for the same reason that clerics aren't broken just because of Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)
Elven bladebow of death (exotic weapon) cost 10 GP weight 6 lbs, fires arrows for 2d10 points of damage, plus 1d4 fire from the friction or 'rail gun' effect. Now this weapon can be used by elves. Does this make elves broken? No.
I'm starting to like this game.
How about a new spell: It drains the life out of every living being in a one-mile-radius (no save, no SR) and heals the caster by the amount of HP drained (excess become Temporary HP that last forever). It's a 1st-level cleric spell, but you can only cast it if you're beloy 0 hit points. This proves that half-orcs with their Orc Ferocity are broken. :)