I was showing the Pathfinder RPG to my regular DM tonight at work and he nearly pee'd himself over it... he's already in love. One concern he had... hated it at first until I (of all things) used my Human Service class cultural diversity training to further explain it... then he was somewhat cool with it.
The concern was the Wisdom bonus of half-orcs. The way I see it is that half orcs grow up amongst prejudice and injustice, and have to learn to be mindful of their surroundings and utilize a great deal of practical common sense early on in life. However, in the description there is only a bit of hint towards this. My DM suggested that it might be helpful if there was just a wee bit more written fluff justifying and explaining the Wisdom bonus of the half orcs in the final book.
Personally I always thought they should get a +2 to charisma. Strong personalities but valnible to suggestions. A wise person does not go charging in a fit of raging, into a front line wearing less than the heaviest armors.
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I've been on the fence about this one too. I've been mulling over replacing the set wisdom bonus with a variable bonus similar to the human or half-elf. At the same time, I worry that this will make a dex or con heavy barbarian in addition to strength that might be too good.
I like the charisma boost though. That's a good thought!
I've been on the fence about this one too. I've been mulling over replacing the set wisdom bonus with a variable bonus similar to the human or half-elf. At the same time, I worry that this will make a dex or con heavy barbarian in addition to strength that might be too good.
I like the charisma boost though. That's a good thought!
Glad some one likes it.
I also suggest +1 bonus to perception, maybe.
Want to start a petition?
P.S. I noticed that all the races that get a minus to a stat get a one bonus to mental, and one to physical. I think they wanted to make them good for at least one spell caster.
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I noticed that too. I would think a half-orc sorc (lol half-sorc), would be more interesting than a half-orc cleric. Of course, a boost to charisma with the Alpha also makes the half-orc a better healer as a cleric since he gains an additional use of his turn undead each day.
I've seen lots of half-orc clerics though in my games. Maybe I'm just getting too used to them.
Not sure about a +1 perception, but a +2 cha is where I think i'd place my money.
Since half-orcs no long get a penalty to charisma they have become an interesting choice for both sorcerer and bard. That could be really cool actually.
I don’t mind the wisdom bonus, wisdom seems to partially cover the ability sense and see things. Wisdom adds to the perception skill.
This kinda makes sense, I can easily imagine orcs and half-orcs as being quick to spot opponents, or have a bad feeling when someone is about to ambush the party.
I also like the wisdom bounes it opens up a few new options . I also think it makes a lot of since that they would have a boost since they always had to lookout for themselves keep an eye open stay sharp and such I like it.
Contributor
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I figure there are a few reasons for this choice:
1) To give a bonus to one mental ability as mentioned above. Intelligence and Charisma as the previously penalized scores would obviously be worse choices.
2) Wisdom includes perception and willpower. I have no problem with half-orcs having good perception abilities or being strong-willed.
3)It's a shout-out to 1E when half-orcs were one of the few non-human races allowed to be clerics, and clerics were one of the few classes half-orcs could be. I expect that this is also why half-orcs are no longer penalized on charisma.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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Personally I always thought they should get a +2 to charisma. Strong personalities but valnible to suggestions. A wise person does not go charging in a fit of raging, into a front line wearing less than the heaviest armors.
I'm not a fan of this. Strong personality does not need to equate to high charisma. I know plenty of people with strong personalities and most of them would have low charisma scores since they tend to lack tact, the ability to compromise and/or general empathy. I don't see why you can't have a wise person with a short temper...sure the combination is rare among humans but a half orc isn't strictly speaking human.
*edit* what Rambling Scribe said too.
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I could still see the charisma before the wisdom. They lack a penalty to wisdom, so can still take perception if it is a class skill. The bonus to charisma will prevent most half-orcs from having to take the Intimidating Prowess feat (pg 33 of the alpha) by having already intimidating personalities.
I will also reiterate that a bonus to charisma for clerics now means more healing ability in general since turning now heals. This makes the charisma bonus a far better choice in my opinion.
It also keeps the half-orc from just being a second rate dwarf clone at this point.
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I'm kinda confused about it, mainly because Wisdom is a bit of a schizophrenic stat.
On the one side, it's the stat for insight, perception and awareness, which is why most animals have 12 or so Wisdom, despite not being thought of as paragons of zen wisdom.
On the other side, it relates to Will saves.
A race with a Wisdom bonus should be both sharp of senses and strong of will, both of which seems to fit the Half Orc quite well. Orcish sorts as hyper-alert, sniffing the air and peering at strangers dubiously, much like animals, fits the theme, as does the strong willed barbaric sort, not well socialized, but forceful and stubborn.
On the other hand, Charisma is *also* supposed to reflect force of personality, and perhaps should be the stat upon which Will saves are based, instead of Wisdom. A ship whose long since sailed, since Wisdom is the stat that's been affecting mind-influencing spells and 'willpower' since 1st edition.
I could see half-breed races having a low Charisma, if only because of their split nature, always partially at war with one or another aspect of themselves, and never feeling truly accepted anywhere. Additionally, years of rejection, and never truly being part of any one culture might leave them prone to 'rejecting the world right back' and not bothering to even try to socialize, since they've learned all their lives that they won't be treated the same no matter which fork they use for the salad.
I have explained my path of thinking for the half-orc race getting the +2 wisdom is they are supposed to be resilent, this equates to a +1 save bonus and is the least they could do. Bit as stated on another thread, there is a possibility that maybe it could be a players choice. Give the player two points to put/divide between Wis and Con. They are supposed to be tough.
sorry for double post, but I try to understand all pathfinder forum areas
I don't understand why half orcs have +2 on their wisdom.
I imagine half orcs like an half Klingon like B'Elanna Torres in Star trek Voyager: always fighting with herself and her ferocious half/soul.
Infact this is reflected in Orc ferocity ability that is in contrast with wisdom.
My solution is to keep ferocity ability, but keep old +2 Strength, –2 Intelligence, –2 Charisma.
and please, don't power up all the game like 4th is doing, I understand that players want + + + but keep it reasonable.
regards
zoltar
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Set,
I always look at Wisdom as 'Mental Constitution' and Charisma as 'Mental Strength' And yes, Intelligence as 'mental dexterity'
Wisdom is how well you can focus, deal with people beating on your self image. It also allows you to filter out extranious influences, kind of like Con does with poison. That's why Perception is based off of it. It's not that you see/hear/taste/smell more with wisdom 12 than wisdom 10, it's that wisdom 10 guy smells the iocane powder and doesn't register it, while wisdom 12 guy does the 'spider sense' thing
Charisma is how well you can project that image on to others.
So Charisma damage weakens the self image in respect to the outside world. An ego whipped character would become less confident and more withdrwan a wisdom drained character would become less and less aware of the world around him, less able to percieve dangers, even less able to tell which thoughts were his own, or which were put there by someone else.
For Half Orcs, then, they are more perceptive to threats around them, more aware of the tenatious balance they live in. They may not understand all the complextities and nuances (Intelligence) or feel able to change the world by their own actions (Charisma) but they know they have to carve a niche to survive (Wisdom)
2) Wisdom includes perception and willpower. I have no problem with half-orcs having good perception abilities or being strong-willed.3)It's a shout-out to 1E when half-orcs were one of the few non-human races allowed to be clerics, and clerics were one of the few classes half-orcs could be. I expect that this is also why half-orcs are no longer penalized on charisma.
I personally always found the minus to charisma out of place.
"Wisdom is having gained [bold]knowledge[/bold], experience, and intuitive [bold]understanding[/bold], along with a capacity to apply these well. It is the judicious application of knowledge." wikipedia
sorry I just don't see them as being wise. The only reason why they hadn't given a half orc a minus to wisdom is that they would have too heavily powered down them in the game. Taking a hit to int and wis would be too much for any core race. So they went with the fighter types traditional dump stat, cha.
Charisma is "the ability to develop or inspire in others an ideological commitment to a particular point of view." (Frank 1993, p.383). Which seems more in line with the concept of a raging barbarian's tribe order.
Personally, I see the bump to wisdom as being part of a tribal, shamanic culture--being "in tune" with nature, the deities, etc.--so it's fine by me.Exactly!
But they are not... They are rash dare devils that do the most unwise and unsafe things in combat. They are barbarians not druids or rangers.
But they are not... They are rash dare devils that do the most unwise and unsafe things in combat. They are barbarians not druids or rangers.Personally, I see the bump to wisdom as being part of a tribal, shamanic culture--being "in tune" with nature, the deities, etc.--so it's fine by me.Exactly!
Actually... That still works for Wisdom. Of all the attributes, Wisdom is the closest to an "Instinct" attribute. And ever since 1st Edition, Barbarians have been portrayed as instinctual warriors.
It just so happens to be the best attribute for Clerics, Druids, and any other Nature based class as well.