I'm sorry to say, I really dislike the new modifiers.
Halflings with +2 Intelligence? Half-orcs without a Charisma penalty? I just don't get it.
The worst move is the +2 modifier to any ability for humans. Most players already takes humans for the bonus feat, and now they can also be human and be as strong as a half-orc or as dextrous as a halfling?
Its a dealbreaker for me; I wouldn't use Pathfinder Alpha without house-ruling right at character creation. Please rethink it! (I feel you have to take away the bonus feat if you give +2 to an ability of choice).
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worst move is the +2 modifier to any ability for humans. Most players already takes humans for the bonus feat, and now they can also be human and be as strong as a half-orc or as dextrous as a halfling?
Its a dealbreaker for me; I wouldn't use Pathfinder Alpha without house-ruling right at character creation. Please rethink it! (I feel you have to take away the bonus feat if you give +2 to an ability of choice).
While not an outright dealbreaker, I tend to agree to this to some degree, but maybe the bonus could be more of a limited nature.
Say +2 to certain attribute but based on where the human hails from, be it city, nation or region.
Or a +1 instead of a full +2.
I disagree whole heartedly!
I feel that by 'bumping up' the races a bit you get more playable options like a drow or hob-goblin PC and you can get rid of level adjustment and have a human on par with a drow or a hobgoblin. Plus you get some flavor to throw in with different nationalities of humans.
Level adjustment is one of the worst mechanics of 3.0/3.5 I am glad to see this being worked on.
Have you played the alpha test yet?
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I actually really like the new modifiers. My only thing is that I do not like the minus modifiers. I know in 4e they are doing away with the minue modifiers and I think that is a good move. Now, I guess if you are giving more maybe it is smart to keep the minuses but it is not my preference. As it is most PCs are going to have at least one low number or if it is a point buy then maybe a couple.
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The half-orcs are finally finished. They always seemed like a half-designed race really. If a half-elf gets bonuses that an elf doesn't, whys shouldn't a half-orc gain abilities an orc doesn't.
I like this general change, but i'm kind of on the fence for the bonus to wisdom. Perhaps they should have a +2 to any one stat in addition to their +2 str, -2 cha similar to the half-elf. It'd be better put in a physical stat anyway with a favored class of barbarian.
I don't see why a human should get a bonus to any stat. As I understand it Bonuses or negatives to stat are in relation to how they compare with humans. Like a halfling gaining +2 dex and -2 str being that they are faster than humans but also physically weaker than humans.
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The idea for this is to generally increase all races, but certain races have favored statistics as well as classes. Those without favored classes must choose one, and the ability increase is meant as a general play aid. Heroes need heroic stats, they should just be fair.
It is also to balance the stats against the changes made. I like the changes to the races in general. Doesn't leave human as lucrative and makes the other races more viable.
It's true that the stats are built in relation to humans as well. Since each race gets +2 to two stats and -2 to one, that leaves a general +2 increase. This is corrected for humans AND half-elves with a general +2.
One thing that struck me is that all the other races have bonuses to Perception checks of some sort (save humans): Dwarves +2 touch/smell, Gnomes +2 smell/taste, Elves and Half-Elves +2 sight/sound, Halflings +2 sound/touch (IIRC- I'm not positive about dwarves and halflings as my playtest document isn't handy at the moment).
Given the addition of a +2 Wisdom to Half-Orcs and the notion that they are constantly on the lookout for danger, might it not make sense to give them an additional boost of +2 Perception to Sight/Smell based checks (the only combo missing, if I'm not mistaken, and one that would seem to fit half-orcs).
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The half-orcs are finally finished. They always seemed like a half-designed race really. If a half-elf gets bonuses that an elf doesn't, whys shouldn't a half-orc gain abilities an orc doesn't.
I think the 1/2 races should be halfway between their parent races, at least for ability scores.
If elves are +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Con, then 1/2 elves should be +1 Dex or Int, -1 Con, and +1 any ability (including Dex, Int, or Con).
Full-blooded orcs should be +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Int, and 1/2 orcs should be +1 Str or Wis, -1 Int, and +1 any ability (including Str, Wis, or Int).
It sets up a nice little system for 1/2 races. If someone wanted to do 1/2 dwarves or 1/2 anything else, there'd be a pattern to follow.
Humans would still get +2 to any ability, but no higher than 18.
One other thing. I'm not suggesting a name change for an ability score or a new ability score (too radical for a system that is supposed to be compatible with 3.5), but does it seem ironic to anyone that 1/2 are one of the few races that get a bonus because of their "wisdom." Ah, those wise old 1/2 orcs, known for their good judgment throughout the lands. Kinda' highlights how clunky it is to lump judgment and perception together and call it Wisdom.
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I think the 1/2 races should be halfway between their parent races, at least for ability scores.
If elves are +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Con, then 1/2 elves should be +1 Dex or Int, -1 Con, and +1 any ability (including Dex, Int, or Con).
Full-blooded orcs should be +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Int, and 1/2 orcs should be +1 Str or Wis, -1 Int, and +1 any ability (including Str, Wis, or Int).
It sets up a nice little system for 1/2 races. If someone wanted to do 1/2 dwarves or 1/2 anything else, there'd be a pattern to follow.
This wouldn't work because the player would always arrange his stats so the +1 would boost him up to a higher ability bonus and the -1 wouldn't decrease the bonus. In other words, always put the +1's and -1's on odd ability scores rather then evens.
Sam
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This wouldn't work because the player would always arrange his stats so the +1 would boost him up to a higher ability bonus and the -1 wouldn't decrease the bonus. In other words, always put the +1's and -1's on odd ability scores rather then evens.
Damn them!
Actually, aren't they doing that already in point-buy systems? You point is well taken, however - +1/-1 ability modifiers invite min/maxing.
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Damn them!
Actually, aren't they doing that already in point-buy systems? You point is well taken, however - +1/-1 ability modifiers invite min/maxing.
Look at it this way, with +2/-2 the bonus will always help and the penalty will always equally hurt. With +1/-1 the bonus will almost always help and the penalty will almost never hurt.
Sam
I believe that added the wisdom bonus to half orcs because they are CUNNING. Maybe not smart but alway looking out for number one.
I could also see a Charisma bonus to half orcs. Yeah they might not be beautiful, but they have very forceful personalities, and cleave to their passions.
You know what I would like to see instead of an added +2 bonus for each race:
Added ability score increases. At 2nd level and every four levels thereafter, you can increase a mental stat of your choice. At 4th level and every four levels thereafter, you can increase a physical stat of your choice.
This would allow PF races to be much closer to 3.5 races, but would still allow for tougher characters in the long run. And splitting increases into alternating mental/physical increases would lead to more diversity. (No more bumping the same stat or same category of stat every four levels; everyone would have both mental and physical aptitudes).
That's an interesting one--actually if you tied the alternating ability bump somehow to the race, it would provide both the tougher character and the racial flavor as options that could be more easily integrated into existing 3.5 material.
So perhaps at whatever the alternating race-associated level is, a dwarf could raise Con or Wis, while an Elf could raise Int or Dex, for example.
I don't think that several of the modifiers jive with the description of the race.
Dwarves should have a -2 to DEX not CHA. They are stout of build and therefore less agile. I also do not like the idea of negative CHA modifiers. I don't think force of personality is something that is racially dependent.
Gnomes should have a +2 to DEX not CON. This is more consistant with there conection to the Fey. It also dovetails with the frail aspect of fey creatures and the inclusion of gnomes with the frail races in the hit point sidebar.
Half-orcsshould have a +2 to CON not WIS. While some may be cunning, racial speaking they are bigger and more durable than humans and the bonuses should reflect as much.
Half-orcsshould have a +2 to CON not WIS. While some may be cunning, racial speaking they are bigger and more durable than humans and the bonuses should reflect as much.
This would be the worst change possible. No matter how appropriate it may be, it is a min/maxers, munchkins, or power gamers wet dream.
I have had a thought. One that I do not claim is right for a published Pathfinder game... But I present it for others to run with if they so choose.
Races no longer get "flat" attribute modifiers at first level. All races start equal.
Instead, they have "favored," and "unfavored," abilities. Strength would be favored for Half Orcs, and Intelligence would be unfavored.
When applying an advancement bump to an attribute, adding it to a favored attribute adds 2 points - up to a score of 20, and adding it to an unfavored attribute above 16 only counts as half a point. All other advancements work as normal.
The only "iffy" part is what happens when bumping a favored attribute at 19... And I would say that it bumps it to 20, and the "extra" point is lost. So... It could be reworded to say: Adding it to a favored attribute of less than 19, results in a +2 point increase.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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Half-orcsshould have a +2 to CON not WIS. While some may be cunning, racial speaking they are bigger and more durable than humans and the bonuses should reflect as much.
This would be the worst change possible. No matter how appropriate it may be, it is a min/maxers, munchkins, or power gamers wet dream.
Even more so if you use the Bonus Racial Hit Point optional rule at first level from the Alpha Rules.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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I have had a thought. One that I do not claim is right for a published Pathfinder game... But I present it for others to run with if they so choose.
Races no longer get "flat" attribute modifiers at first level. All races start equal.
Instead, they have "favored," and "unfavored," abilities. Strength would be favored for Half Orcs, and Intelligence would be unfavored.
When applying an advancement bump to an attribute, adding it to a favored attribute adds 2 points - up to a score of 20, and adding it to an unfavored attribute above 16 only counts as half a point. All other advancements work as normal.
The only "iffy" part is what happens when bumping a favored attribute at 19... And I would say that it bumps it to 20, and the "extra" point is lost. So... It could be reworded to say: Adding it to a favored attribute of less than 19, results in a +2 point increase.
Something like this might work if the PF character gen rules had a point buy system at first level for attributes. further more it could be very interesting but I expect the general outcry at the loss of rolling options would kill the idea pretty quickly. As for doing it as characters advance in level I see all sorts of potential abuse in that. I'd rather keep the +/-2s myself.
I must admit that I’m not all that fond with some of the stats that have been placed in the alpha edition for the pathfinder game. One of the things that I don’t like is that every ability score has to have a +2 or -2 added to it instead of say two +/-1’s. The other problem that I have is that the half-elf & half-orc don’t in all honesty reflect there traits shared or gained from both of their parents.
Elves- +2 int, +1 dex, +1 cha, -2 con (the +1 to charisma would be do to their unnatural beauty that they have as a trait)
Dwarf- stats are fine but slow and steady goes a bit too far and so I would stay with original rule with that one
Gnome- +2 Cha, +1 con, +1 int, -2 str (+1 to intelligence do to their inventiveness)
Halfling- +2 dex, +1 int, +1 cha, -2 str (+1 to charisma due to their ability to fit in with most communities without a problem
Human-fine
Half-elf- +1 to int, +1 to any other ability score (+1 to int due to the elf having a +2 to int and a +1 to any other ability due to human background)
Half-orc – +2 str, -1 cha, +1 to any other beside str. and cha.
The last two races at least reflect some of the various traits gained from both parents. I don’t understand how the half-orc could receive any bonus to wisdom for neither of its parents receives any wisdom bonus.
There’s my input