That's it. its official: "Fans" will do the conversion work for Paizo. I am sure that Lisa will argue otherwise but bottom line: 4.0 will not get the support and creative talent I was expecting. If you let fans do your work for you for free, what kind of quality control should you expect? Probably not a lot. After all, you only get what you've paid for...
I am quite sad because so far I've always liked Paizo's work and was hoping to continue my campaigns with them. I am planing to switch to 4.0 because as a DM I approve of the changes that 4.0 will bring. So far, the Pathfinder RPG is unimpressive (it's closer to 3.51 than 3.75) and fails to address some of the sacred cows we've been dragging since 1st edition.
What a sad day
Au contraire!
A glorious day!
Besides, Paizo will be supporting 4E through Necromancer Games.
Everyone wins!*
SO HAPPY!
-Amber S., the happy one
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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That's it. its official: "Fans" will do the conversion work for Paizo. ... If you let fans do your work for you for free, what kind of quality control should you expect? Probably not a lot. After all, you only get what you've paid for...
I'm not sure I understand your point. "Fans" (your quotation marks, not mine) will be playtesting, yes. But most good games have playtesters. Pathfinder will just have a larger playtest-pool.
The fans here include a lot of gaming professionals, part-time pros, and very savvy amateurs (in the best sense of that word). Did you like the work submitted for the RPG Superstar competition? Did you like the "GM Gems" book?
But it will be the Paizo staff --Jason, I presume-- who'll be writing the book, making sure the rules fit together and match the design objectives.
I'm not sure what you're objecting to: open play-testing? If so, (shrug.) There are worse things to be accused of.
4.0 will not get the support and creative talent I was expecting
This being WotC's problem in not issuing the GSL aside, how do you know Paizo won't support 4? They have seen neither the rules nor the GSL. Pathfinder will not be 4E, but you may yet see 4E APs under a non-Pathfinder brand. Who knows? It's WotC's move.
So far, the Pathfinder RPG is unimpressive (it's closer to 3.51 than 3.75) and fails to address some of the sacred cows we've been dragging since 1st edition.
It's an Alpha play test. That means there will be changes AND you can participate in them. Better than the closed door development that WotC has followed if you ask me. Just my 2c.
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That's it. its official: "Fans" will do the conversion work for Paizo. I am sure that Lisa will argue otherwise but bottom line: 4.0 will not get the support and creative talent I was expecting. If you let fans do your work for you for free, what kind of quality control should you expect? Probably not a lot. After all, you only get what you've paid for...
I am quite sad because so far I've always liked Paizo's work and was hoping to continue my campaigns with them. I am planing to switch to 4.0 because as a DM I approve of the changes that 4.0 will bring. So far, the Pathfinder RPG is unimpressive (it's closer to 3.51 than 3.75) and fails to address some of the sacred cows we've been dragging since 1st edition.
What a sad day
I am certain they said they would still produce 4E material, but it will have nothing to do with Pathfinder.
You can count me in also in the happy singing. We need to find someone to play a happy jig.
Sad day?
I think not!
Huzzah for Paizo!
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Probably not a lot. After all, you only get what you've paid for...
Counterpoint: linux.
As to the rest of your post, I do agree that 4e sounds to be great for DMs. The new Monster creation stuff has a great deal of appeal. I hope that PF RPG will include something similar.
Out of curiosity, what sacred cows do you wish to see exploded that are still around in the alpha release?
This is.... AWESOME!!!!
I actually danced on the way home, taking time out to smell the roses.
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This is easily the best news I've had all week. And as promised I will trundle off to the store (next week after I get paid) and immediately subscribe to something. :)
The group I game with is just finishing up the Skinsaw chapter of Rise of the Runelords, so we will definitely be participating in the open alpha/beta and providing our feedback to mingle with the genius of hundreds of other playtesters. I haven't been this enthused about anything in the RPG world since 3.0 was announced. :)
Thanks, Paizo... and how the HELL did you not let any indication of this leak out at all? That is truly incredible. :)
I think my entire apartment building must have heard my shouts of joy upon reading the news. I must now resist doing a little happy dance!
Undoubtedly, this decision is going to disappoint many 4E supporters who had hoped Pathfinder would go 4E. It's unfortunate that no matter what Paizo had decided, they would have disappointed someone. However, I'm sure you'll see some quality 4E products from Paizo eventually, just published under a different line.
Ah, happy days!
Au contraire!
A glorious day!
Besides, Paizo will be supporting 4E through Necromancer Games.
Everyone wins!*
I don't win. I love the 4e preview material, and I love Paizo's adventures. One of the best things I've seen in the 4e previews is how much easier they've made the DM's job, monster-wise. One of the good things about Paizo adventures is that they also save me a lot of prep time. Now, if I'm going to continue using Paizo adventures, I'll have to spend more prep time rewriting stat blocks and balancing encounters for 4e.
I've already been to the world of fan-made conversion documents with the introduction of 3e. Encounters were often very poorly balanced, and arbitrary alterations were often made that ruined the original intent.
I understand the difficulties with the GSL, and why it makes sense for Paizo to stick with 3.5e for the next 12 months. However, I hope you join the rest of us on the dark side by the middle of 2009, or I fear that you'll be selling your otherwise excellent books to an ever-dwindling set of die-hard 3.5ers. And I don't want that for my sake, or for Paizo's.
What a fantastic day!
I cannot express my thanks to Paizo for the decision they have made.
And I have not read the new rules yet, but if the observation that it is more like 3.51 than 3.75 is true than I am even more happy than ever. :)
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After reading all about this I am actually hopeful. I think that the open playtest idea is shear brilliance. I find myself looking forward to this more than 4E. I did not think anything could get me excited about 3.5 again - this did.
I will still play 4E because I love Eberron but this will actually make me eat crow and play 3.5 again.
My wife just looked at me like I was crazy when I described the situation and Paizo's decision....and how happy I was that they made *this* call. Too funny.
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After reading all about this I am actually hopeful. I think that the open playtest idea is shear brilliance. I find myself looking forward to this more than 4E. I did not think anything could get me excited about 3.5 again - this did.
I will still play 4E because I love Eberron but this will actually make me eat crow and play 3.5 again.
Excellent! CWM has been converted! On to phase #203!
<grins> In all seriousness, it's good to see you excited about the game again. I hope that feeling lasts for you.
It felt great to have Paizo post these rules and then actually request feedback from the fans. My contribution might be small in the big picture but it does feel good to even be asked at all.
You are right, this is all very exciting.
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After reading all about this I am actually hopeful. I think that the open playtest idea is shear brilliance. I find myself looking forward to this more than 4E. I did not think anything could get me excited about 3.5 again - this did.
I will still play 4E because I love Eberron but this will actually make me eat crow and play 3.5 again.
Excellent! CWM has been converted! On to phase #203!
<grins> In all seriousness, it's good to see you excited about the game again. I hope that feeling lasts for you.
It felt great to have Paizo post these rules and then actually request feedback for the fans. My contribution might be small in the big picture but it does feel good to even be asked at all.
You are right, this is all very exciting.
Everything AB said, plus I wanted to add I think your are an admirable person for keeping an open mind, especially considering the "flames" you've endured.
If you're ever in New Orleans or there abouts, let me know. That offer of a "gamer exchange" still stands.
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After reading all about this I am actually hopeful. I think that the open playtest idea is shear brilliance. I find myself looking forward to this more than 4E. I did not think anything could get me excited about 3.5 again - this did.
I will still play 4E because I love Eberron but this will actually make me eat crow and play 3.5 again.
Excellent! CWM has been converted! On to phase #203!
<grins> In all seriousness, it's good to see you excited about the game again. I hope that feeling lasts for you.
It felt great to have Paizo post these rules and then actually request feedback for the fans. My contribution might be small in the big picture but it does feel good to even be asked at all.
You are right, this is all very exciting.
After our discussion in the "thought experiment" thread I was actually hopeful but a doubt still lingered. The notion of the open playtest just blew away any doubt. The approach that Paizo is taking is one that I can definitely see leading to a great game.
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Everything AB said, plus I wanted to add I think your are an admirable person for keeping an open mind, especially considering the "flames" you've endured.
If you're ever in New Orleans or there abouts, let me know. That offer of a "gamer exchange" still stands.
Cool. Thanks.
Flames don't really bother me - you cannot purify gold without burning out the impurities :-)
Effectively, Paizo took the can of bud light and slammed it down. Necromancer, their partner, is going 4.0 and handling all of that. As a result, the results of their agreement with Necromancer allow them to do this because of the corporate logic of joint ventures.
Therefore, they can publish this and effectively force Wizards to keep printing 3.5 books. They WILL make money, wizards Will make money, and 4th edition will get whoever it gets.
In effect, this actually benefits Wizards, as wonky as that is to say, because they will profit if they reprint the Players Handbook, DMG, and Monster Manual for the old game.
I like this. I think it's a very smart move, because it forces Wizards into competition with itself.
Plus, it gives me a world I LIKE without breaking it.
I just want my Goblins Burning Down the Town Tee-Shirt. Heck, since Crosswired was converted to this, I'll pay for his Goblins Burning Down the Town Tee Shirt.
I'm still excited about 4E, but I too like that how paizo has posted a free pdf as an alpha test and will continue to run with these for the next several months to get feedback and tweak the new system. If WotC had decided to do something like this with 4E, I think people would have a much better attitude toward it. I mean a lot of us are playing this game for several hours on a weekly basis and know the game inside out, so it's not like we have nothing to offer in terms of input. Oh well, their mistake.
In the end I still plan to check out 4E and give it a shot. If I don't enjoy it, it's good to know that the Pathfinder game will be available as an alternative because I really feel that 3E needs some more work.
However, if I do end up really liking 4E and wanting to play a 4E game, it will be frustrating not to have any 4E paizo adventures. Ah well, I do like making my own adventures.
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I just want my Goblins Burning Down the Town Tee-Shirt. Heck, since Crosswired was converted to this, I'll pay for his Goblins Burning Down the Town Tee Shirt.
I appreciate the offer and may even take you up on it but you should know that I will also be buying 4E and, for me, it is no longer an either/or proposition.
I am not going to celebrate in front of those that feel left behind.
But I do offer my condolences, and my hand in helping in anyway (inhumanly) possible. I would even consider purchasing the 4th Edition Core books to throw in my ideas for conversions. But I won't promise frequency, nor quality.
As happy as I am, I am just as sad as those that aren't excited by this news.
4.0 will not get the support and creative talent I was expecting. If you let fans do your work for you for free, what kind of quality control should you expect? Probably not a lot. After all, you only get what you've paid for...
I'd say don't don't dump on the fans until you see what we do with this. There were some very good fan supported material for 3.5. Athas.Org is a case in point. You'll never like every choice the fans make but thats going to be true of a professional designers work as well. See, for example, the obligatory thread slamming Nic's latest creation.
Oh no! This is *terrible*!
And why is it *terrible*...beyond my use of "*"....?
This means, that now I must be a truly, wholly 100% support of Paizo, right down to my already stretched to the limits wallet...
come on people, I'm a human services major and a psyche aide still trying to pay off the debts of my last marriage....
Oh well, if Paizo is going to stick with 3.0/3.5, then I must, and will, play my part to support them with my dollars...
Thank you Paizo... (looking at wallet)... I think.
I have a silly grin on my face.
I will play 4th Edition. I will probably enjoy it too, but I will also snap up every paizo pathfinder adventure path and supplement out there. I am delighted to see support for a 3.paizo Golarion. The flexibility and power of 3.5, married to a consistent and exciting setting makes me a very happy Taliesin.
I would have stopped my subscriptions if the setting had switched to the new edition. There will be plenty of stuff out there for the people who move to the new basic D&D, by many talented people. Some or most of the fan favourite Paizo authors will be writing some stuff for 4.O.
I am just delighted that Golarion doesn't have to change too.
Viva Paizo!
Yippee!
Gadzooks!
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Everyone doesn't win. What we see here, though is a company with an amazing passion for its customers.
To all the 4e guys, I hope you find what you're looking for...if not, Paizo will still be making the best stuff in the market and you can come play it at my table!
and at my table, and PbP and......
I totally agree DF.I'm just glad there is a choice now....
That's it. its official: "Fans" will do the conversion work for Paizo. ... If you let fans do your work for you for free, what kind of quality control should you expect? Probably not a lot. After all, you only get what you've paid for...
I'm not sure I understand your point. "Fans" (your quotation marks, not mine) will be playtesting, yes. But most good games have playtesters. Pathfinder will just have a larger playtest-pool.
The fans here include a lot of gaming professionals, part-time pros, and very savvy amateurs (in the best sense of that word). Did you like the work submitted for the RPG Superstar competition? Did you like the "GM Gems" book?
But it will be the Paizo staff --Jason, I presume-- who'll be writing the book, making sure the rules fit together and match the design objectives.
I'm not sure what you're objecting to: open play-testing? If so, (shrug.) There are worse things to be accused of.
Chris,
What I find sad is that 4e will not be supported by Pazio as much as I had hoped for. I was really looking forward to a pathfinder serie in 4th edition. This is unlikely to happen or at the very least require much more work as a DM from my part.
I was just thinking as I was starting to read this, "but what will think about this?". I'm glad that I was not disappointed. :)
This has made my week.
Hail paizo! Hail Pathfinder RPG!
I am sorry for those 4E'rs that feel left behind, but am positivly ecstatic for myself.
At last a decision! Since I'm pro 3.5 I'm pleased, but even had they moved to 4E I would have been relieved that the waiting and uncertainty is over. Hopefully the animosity between the camps will now ebb.
That's it. its official: "Fans" will do the conversion work for Paizo. ... If you let fans do your work for you for free, what kind of quality control should you expect? Probably not a lot. After all, you only get what you've paid for...
I'm not sure I understand your point. "Fans" (your quotation marks, not mine) will be playtesting, yes. But most good games have playtesters. Pathfinder will just have a larger playtest-pool.
The fans here include a lot of gaming professionals, part-time pros, and very savvy amateurs (in the best sense of that word). Did you like the work submitted for the RPG Superstar competition? Did you like the "GM Gems" book?
But it will be the Paizo staff --Jason, I presume-- who'll be writing the book, making sure the rules fit together and match the design objectives.
I'm not sure what you're objecting to: open play-testing? If so, (shrug.) There are worse things to be accused of.
Oh, no. Don't let the same crowd (the "Fans") who pointed out in massive numbers the flaws and holes with D&D3 and in turn created (or brought about the creation by sheer force of multitude of) 3.5 playtest another RPG. They certainly can't measure up to what industry professionals can produce (like 3.0).
If anyone wants me I'll be over on the Pathfinder RPG threads. 4E is rapidly becoming just a bad fading memory for me.
Hit the light on your way out. }; )
LMAO
Au contraire!
A glorious day!
Besides, Paizo will be supporting 4E through Necromancer Games.
Everyone wins!*
** spoiler omitted **
I have never been a fan of 3.5 (actually, I only own the core 3.0 books), but after looking at the simplification they have done with Pathfinder, Paizo has found a new customer! I guess Pathfinder can be all that 4e should have been (i.e. something that can still be called D&D...)
Antonio
Just out of curiosity, is this you who started this thread over at Gleemax?
Paizo shows the finger to WotC ... just curious, seems like same sig, 180 degree stance change. Am I missing something?
Just out of curiosity, is this you who started this thread over at Gleemax?
Paizo shows the finger to WotC ... just curious, seems like same sig, 180 degree stance change. Am I missing something?
Not me I am afraid. Another "Lost" fan I am afraid....
Just out of curiosity, is this you who started this thread over at Gleemax?
Paizo shows the finger to WotC ... just curious, seems like same sig, 180 degree stance change. Am I missing something?
I agree with the post in that thread that said:
"Paizo are striking out on the path they believe is best, and good luck to them. So are WotC. I'm going to buy 4e because I'd rather have it than a tweaked 3.5."
So long Paizo. All I ever really bought here were game aids anyway, and Ill just buy the Planet Story novels used on Amazon. Why play and invest in an inferior system?
After reading all about this I am actually hopeful. I think that the open playtest idea is shear brilliance. I find myself looking forward to this more than 4E. I did not think anything could get me excited about 3.5 again - this did.
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So you're not going away?
<poke, poke>
I'm going to be very interested to see how WotC reacts to this. My guess is that they'll ignore it until it becomes evident that Paizo is seriously crimping their plans by giving half the fans an outlet to stay with 3.5.
I salute your bravery Paizo. Moreover, I'll support you fully with my wallet.