Condensed as tightly as possible: if a player says that they want to use a flavorful magic item or graft, but can/will not because it is too low a level with an unusable DC, how would you respond?
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I'd like to seek advice on a particularly large elephant in pf2's system.
Like spells, skill checks, and more, magical equipment and items often force foes to make saves. Yet, while most player-made effects have some means to increase the DC of the save as levels go up, items do not.
This means that it is the level of the item that determines if it is of substantial benefit to it's wielder. While a magic item may even be +1 above the norm when bought/found right when its level matches a PC, within a few levels, such item activations can become a waste of the player's time due to being too far below par.
Certain effects, like the Thaumaturge's class feat to, once per 10 minutes, use their own class DC in place of a magical item's put a rather noticeable lampshade on this issue.
Rather expectedly, this mechanic results in a norm where players almost never intentionally seek out items that invoke saves upon foes, and as players become more familiar with this issue, they treat such discovered loot more and more as "vendor trash" to be sold, not as a neat reward. Significant portions of each new book release only earn a scoff from players due to their own PCs being a higher level. Entire systems like siege weapons are rendered neigh-unusable.
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Not only that, but this bizarre insistence by the pf2 system for this static DC norm results in overly complicated rules that confuse players and GMs alike.
I was in 2 APs a while back, and in one of them, I had to apologetically explain that the story-looted Spellheart's spell DC was static for the slotted spell, and did not scale with the spellcaster who wanted to use it.
In the other AP, I had to explain that cantrip within the PC-bought Spellheart does in fact scale with a spellcasting DC. Because the item text of every single spellheart lies to the reader via "The spell DC of any spell cast by activating this item is [17]..."
The only way one can learn that text isn't the last word is by reading the rules for Spellhearts as an item group, where you get the cantrip exception from.
This is also why I have never seen nor even heard of a player choosing to obtain a higher ranked version of a spellheart for such a DC spell. Not even for a martial with just enough magical investment to Cast a Spell.
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While Spellhearts are still a great addition/competition for talismans despite this horrid clunk, there's another new group of items that takes this static DC issue over the top for me.
It's the Grafts.
We now have magical "items" that are invested by PCs via surgical integration into the hosts body. If this is done by an NPC, the players may very well not have access to a means to remove them.
Yet, even with Grafts, an entire fraction of them are essentially worthless to seek out due to relying upon static DCs. Even if purchased at their most expensive, right at unlock level, these grafts will almost immediately become clunky time sinks that will need a very unlikely foe roll to have an impact.
Something like Toxic Blood is a perfect example of a "game flow breaker" item that'll be a huge hassle for the table when a player (rightfully) asks the GM rolls the save for every incoming bite, even when the foe needs a nat 1 for the item to do anything.
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All that preamble aside; if anything, what does you table do about this design "quirk" of pf2?
Do you provide a means to change/heighten the item's static DC?
Example mechanical changes:
* quick, simple that still causes item DC to lag behind:
* * * adjusted DC = [listed DC] + [level gap to the PC]
* quickest, normalizes all items into the average: (spellheart spells seem to use this)
* * * adjusted DC = [DCs by level chart @ current level]
* preserve the item's initial above/below DC par (most "accurate"):
* * * adjusted DC = [DCs by level chart @ current level] + [static DC - DC by level @(old level)]
* simplest, reuse DC scaling rules of other mechanics:
* * * adjusted DC equals the greater of: Class DC & Spellcasting DC
* Unconventional momentary scaling:
* * * Can spend a hero point when DC is invoked to improve it for one roll
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And does this DC change require a cost be paid by the PC to obtain?
Examples:
* All invested items improve. Can invest in non-investment items to improve DCs (such as Talismans & Spellhearts).
* Item requires 2 investment slots to improve.
* Item requires a Crafting check and gp cost to upgrade to an arbitrary level (still a static DC).
* All PCs can take the Thaumaturge class feat at any level. (bypass rule change)
* Add homebrew class/skill/general/etc feat that when taken scales item DCs. (Ex: Skill Feat: Particularly Invested: during daily prep, select one invested item and [heighten the DC]. You may acquire this skill feat more than once, adding an additional item each time.)
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Condensed as tightly as possible: if a player says that they want to use a flavorful magic item or graft, but can/will not because it is too low a level with an unusable DC, how would you respond?
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I let PCs upgrade items using the dcs and costs for level found in the GMG.
Simple, fast and does the job of keeping static DCs and bonuses viable.
If there are higher level variants that also upgrade DCs they become necessary at that level.
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Upscale the item to a higher item level using these tables.
Condensed as tightly as possible: if a player says that they want to use a flavorful magic item or graft, but can/will not because it is too low a level with an unusable DC, how would you respond?
I'd have different answers depending on what the player goal is. In terms of items, I tend to give higher level items to the PCs, so they are really pushed to use them instead of selling them right away for the "good items". As such, items with fixed DCs are used during a few levels and not just one or 2.
If now it's a specific, and purely flavorful item, then I'd certainly not care and use the character DC.And if it's a combat or somehow efficient item, then I'd ask the PC to pay for its improvement every level.
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I think it's useful to (1) try to figure out Paizo's intent and (2) if this is actually enjoyable, or needs adjusting.
1 What did Paizo want with static DCs?
One thing I believe they were trying to achieve is discourage people from collecting hundreds of low-level items that for a higher level character are quite cheap. You also see this in mechanics like Investment, shorter buff durations, and the Wealth by Level table for kitting new characters. They push you to focus on a few appropriate-level items.
They'd dislike this for aesthetic reasons (magic item christmas tree). But it's also something that makes the game less accessible for not-hardcore players. If being really good at bookkeeping made your character much more powerful, that would widen the gap between those players and more casual players. Personally I was really good with bookkeeping in PF1 but work and other hobbies have since become more demanding, and I like that PF2 doesn't encourage it so much.
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A second reason to use static DCs I believe is to keep the wheels of loot turning. When you find an on-level or level+1 item with a static DC, the DC is probably reasonably competitive. A couple levels later, it starts to fall off. But by then you might find a new cool item.
Treasure as a reward for dungeon crawling/adventuring means the players need to be actually excited about finding new items. But if their existing items are really already good enough and use up the same body/hand/investment resources, then new items risk falling flat more.
I think the design goal is that you don't often spend the entire campaign using the same magic items you found early on, but that you keep trading in toys for shiny new toys.
2 Are people enjoying it?
I'd say, not as much as hoped for. Players complaining about static DCs is pretty common. People DO get attached to some items, and you can't necessarily predict which ones those are going to be.
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Now what?
Keeping in mind the (supposed) reasons for static DCs, I think you could look at something like:
* Allow people to upgrade the DC by paying a proportional cost to the level that the new DC corresponds with.
* Allow people to pick one, or maybe eventually two or three, items that just level their DC along with you. You can change which item that is, but that takes a few days of downtime.
Both approaches preserve the design goals: high level characters aren't going to be carting along three dozen low level items that they break the DC ceiling on.
But if you have a favorite item, you can make it last longer. You can have a few items that do last the whole campaign.
I think this might actually support the design goals better, because people are more willing to give items with save DCs a real try. Because if it turns out the item is actually good, that could become your long-term item.