Anyway, I'm glad to see that some people who aren't even fans of FR see this for what it is.
It goes further than that. I'm not a FR fan and I plan on playing 4e and I think this is s*#&.
Me, too.
I've never played FR, and probably never will. Of course that'll be easy now, because WotC has wiped it away. If I were a fan, what would a nearly-complete reboot offer me -- when everything I'd come to love was gone?
It's one thing to not let sacred cows interfere with the design process. But it seems more as if they've set out to deliberately, willfully, methodically, and thoroughly kill off everything D&D has been for 30 years.
There's been lots of talk, and I don't think WotC is obligated to honor everything D&D has included for three decades. But what have they kept? Very little, it seems.
I'm having an increasingly hard time believing 4/e's designers even liked D&D, so instead they made a game they did like.
Anyway, it's really, really dumb. In ways I could describe for hours on end. But really, I've neither the time, energy or patience to take WoTC to task for destroying my favourite setting. Le sigh.
Yes, it is dumb.
I'm a fan of Hercule Poirot. If tomorrow he stops speaking with a French (really Belgian) accent, moves into the country, gets a dog, becomes humble, and stops solving mysteries -- sorry, but I'm not falling for such a ruse.
FR -- RIP :(
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Oh my God. I'm back. I'm home. All the time, it was... We finally really did it.
You Maniacs! You blew it up! Ah, damn you! g&% d~&n you all to hell!
Oh good, I wasn't the only one watching Planet of the Apes the other day, because that was the first thing to cross my mind.
The second thing was; GAMMArealms!!!!!!!!
Play as a Spellplague mutant dragonborn, flee before the might of unstopable Warforged death machines and marvel at the bizzare landscapes of this gods forsaken realm.
My. God.
I've been away for a while planning for my upcoming nuptials (really hope I spelled that right, considering how much everyone's spending on this wedding thing), and I can't believe this is what's planned for the Realms. While I was never a fan of the Realms (although I loved the second ed Wizards & Rogues and Fighters & Priests series, a number of the 3.x novels, and Power of Faerun is one of my favorite books) this is a complete shoehorn! What a disappointment. Still, I am interested in this GAMMArealms you speak of...
I'm having an increasingly hard time believing 4/e's designers even liked D&D, so instead they made a game they did like.
QFT, my friend, QFT.
Well, the one positive that I had hoped would come from this whole misguided Realms-reboot-abortion was that Elminster would finally be gone.
Nope.
In fact, this self-important little article seems to exult in itself by quoting his nigh-immortal pompous ass in the very beginning so as to deny us even the suspense, nay, the hope that he was finally, completely, well and truly dead.
I cut my teeth on the gray box, endured/survived the Time of Troubles, and was perfectly comfortable with the 3rd edition changes.
This whole article is just insulting even to people who have left the Realms behind for other settings (like me).
I feel like they have exhumed my favorite memories of gaming in the Realms and sh@t upon them. I cannot imagine how they can even attempt to salvage a design disaster of this magnitude.
Yuck- The Greyhawk Wars made some kind of sense, and the ToT at least were somewhat restrained, but this arbitary butchery seems to turn D&D's flagship setting into MMORPG/Eberron lite. Even if I do go to 4th ed, I will not be running or playing FR. I've played since the Grey Box and and this ain't FR any more.
It does for D&D what midi-chlorians did for the Force.
Interesting. I particularly like the handwave that explains the sundering of the planes to fit with the new 4E cosmology.
A lot of this stuff sounds like ideas that popped up in our "World Building Project"
I wonder if anybody over there read it, and if they did, whether we should be flattered or offended.
Though I actually like the idea of a magical plague wreaking havok as a source for creating monsters, etc. I also think that it leaves a lot of work in its wake to make a viable world, protection of trade routes, farms, water supplies - but I tend to be a bit simulationist in my tastes.
I liked a lot of things about the realms as a game world.
Hated the diety set-up, Elminster, Drzzt, and most of the other NPCs.
It does for D&D what midi-chlorians did for the Force.Now all we need is some Jar-Jar like character to appear, and the ruination of the Realms will be complete.
And, of course, if this is what happens to the Realms to fit it into 4E, then I'd rather they left Greyhawk alone....
The 4E mind flayers will be just like Jar Jar
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So, out of curiosity, does anyone like this? In particular, if you were not interested in the Realms before, does this make you want to play in it?
This is weak beyond weak. I was expecting something a little less clusmy for the Realms. If they wanted a core setting using the core cosmology, they should have just created one, not mutilated the Realms. They didn't do anyone any favors with this. People that liked the old Realms have effectively had their setting destroyed and these new Realms are just a brand new setting with a bunch of Realms lore crammed in. How does that make the Realms more accessible? I didn't even understand half of the article about wtf happened due to all the references to Realms history.
And this Abeir thing? Why not just make Abeir into the alternate universe Toril, a place very much like the FR, but one which has always operated under the 4e cosmology. You could even still call the products the Forgotten Realms if you wanted. That would have been a much better transition to 4e.
I stopped having interest in the development of the Realms after they introduced Red Wizard magic shops popping all over the civilized areas of the western lands (in Champions of Darkness, IIRC).
Some 3.X sourcebooks were good enough - Serpent Kingdoms, Underdark - others were plain meh. The character oriented splatbooks touched IMHO the lowest mark.The whole Realms handling during the 3.X run was very poor for my tastes - I'm following the setting since "the old gray box" - and this recent development is no better either.
The Scarred Lands have kicked the Realms off the field, in comparison.
The 4E mind flayers will be just like Jar JarIt does for D&D what midi-chlorians did for the Force.Now all we need is some Jar-Jar like character to appear, and the ruination of the Realms will be complete.
And, of course, if this is what happens to the Realms to fit it into 4E, then I'd rather they left Greyhawk alone....
Messa hungry for brains! Pleasa,meesa eata your brainsa now?
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Just for a bit of correction - I read the original article on the WotC site and the OP incorrectly attributed it to Rich Baker. On the site it is credited to Bruce Cordell. (Unless they decided to "publish" this in both Dungeon and Dragon with different authors for the exact same content, anyway...)
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080130a&authentic=true
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It does for D&D what midi-chlorians did for the Force.
I don't know one Star Wars fan that approved of that particular foolishness. :) I'm sure there were some, but I suspect they also liked Jar Jar.
Now all we need is some Jar-Jar like character to appear, and the ruination of the Realms will be complete.
And, of course, if this is what happens to the Realms to fit it into 4E, then I'd rather they left Greyhawk alone....
This is what I tell people every time they say "What about Greyhawk for 4e?!"
The 4E mind flayers will be just like Jar Jar
Messa hungry for brains! Pleasa,meesa eata your brainsa now?
Or perhaps Jar Jar will be the new Volo.... I can see a whole line of writing, which Ed will do if he gets paid enough, I guess, in the voice of Jar Jar. Jar Jar's guide to the Sword Coast, Jar Jar's Guide To The Underdark, and the final volume Jar Jar's Guide to the Dragonborn Lands (because they will mercifully just kill and eat him).
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Just for a bit of correction - I read the original article on the WotC site and the OP incorrectly attributed it to Rich Baker. On the site it is credited to Bruce Cordell. (Unless they decided to "publish" this in both Dungeon and Dragon with different authors for the exact same content, anyway...)
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080130a&authentic=true
Man, that's weird. I swear on all the undead who have come before me that it said Rich Baker just yesterday. I remember because his author bio talks about him ex-Navy, and I almsot cut and pasted it by accident.
Crap! Now I'll have to start questioning my sanity again.
So what happens to all the ancient liches of the realms?
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So what happens to all the ancient liches of the realms?
Good question!
Where my liches at?
I imagine the Spellplague messed with them as much as anyone, though if archmages like Ye Olde Elminster made it, then perhaps they'd have the defenses to do the same--though with their magical nature, I guess the might run the risk of crumbling as everything goes berserk. Wonder if any of them got returned to life again... :P
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Where my liches at?
I imagine the Spellplague messed with them as much as anyone, though if archmages like Ye Olde Elminster made it, then perhaps they'd have the defenses to do the same--though with their magical nature, I guess the might run the risk of crumbling as everything goes berserk. Wonder if any of them got returned to life again... :P
The Spellplague might not actually have affected them. In the article it states that magic items such as weapons, armor, and other "non-charges" items survived because they already possessed a permanent link with the Weave. In theory, they could say the same thing of a lich's phylactery. In this way they can keep around more popular liches(such as Szass Tam) and get rid of less popular ones by just saying that all their magic items exploded at random (for example).
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I like it. At least more than I liked what the Realms had become.
Thank you for speaking up! Sometimes these 4e threads can become echo chambers and it becomes hard to figure out if WotC is drinking the wrong Kool-Aid or if there are people that like the changes being made. Are you involved in FR communities? Are there others you've seen that share your view or are you something of a maverick? It's all anecdotal, but I'd be interested in hearing more about your experience.
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Ironically, for all the sweeping changes, they didn't change some of the stuff I would have changed. The Chosen and Elminster would be dead as dreams if I ever got my hands on that setting. I'm all for powerful villains and legendary heroes, but the setting had far too many beautiful and powerful uber-sorceresses for my tastes.
After awhile it looks less like a fantasy setting and more like Mary Sue fan service.
That being said, I wouldn't want to change it anyway, since it's clearly not a setting written for me. I can play in Eberron, where the Lord of Blades is regarded as a *god* and even has warforged supremacist Clerics and he's OMG! 12th level! The PCs can actually become the movers and shakers of the setting, in time, instead of always being stuck behind divinely-empowered NPCs who regularly chat with, and occasionally sleep with, the most powerful dieties of the setting.
The Realms setting is amazingly popular, and just because it doesn't appeal to me doesn't mean that everything that has made it so popular with thousands of others, uber NPCs and all, should be changed. Instead it should be encouraged, to continue to appeal to those who enjoy that sort of thing.
I like it. At least more than I liked what the Realms had become.
Bluenose, I am not sure after reading your post what it is that you liked about the new changes, can you elaborate?
It seems like you just didn't like the realms previously and are glad they gave them the finger? I just don't see how this move fixes any of the issues you talked about (which were all spot on in many cases, but are often player/DM problems, not issues with the setting) are fixed with these changes. You still have all the old history and have just added random explosions and strangeness.
Sean Mahoney
I can play in Eberron, where the Lord of Blades is regarded as a *god* and even has warforged supremacist Clerics and he's OMG! 12th level! The PCs can actually become the movers and shakers of the setting, in time, instead of always being stuck behind divinely-empowered NPCs who regularly chat with, and occasionally sleep with, the most powerful deities of the setting.
The PCs not being the star of their game is not the fault of the setting - it's the fault of the DM. NPCs should never, ever, ever upstage the PCs.
To set the stage: my husband and I have been sufficiently disappointed with FR products during 3E that we stopped even looking at them, and he has stated he has no intention of starting up with the FR again in 4E. I read this article, and found myself wondering if we should buy 4E FR after all.
I like bits of what they're doing, although I have some serious qualms about the execution.
Their description makes the Spellplague seem more like an atmospheric event that sometimes blasted people, rather than any sort of "plague." You can go into areas that are affected, and also be affected; but it really doesn't read like a disease. And I'd be okay with that, if they called it a plague but explained it isn't, really. Yet they seem to insist on talking about it as if it is a disease. Weird.
The idea of a world-shaking cataclysm and its aftereffects is actually pretty compelling to me. For that reason alone, I'm a bit tempted by this product. In brainstorming a possible Points of Light campaign for 4E, I've been thinking of how to create evidence of past cataclysms, and some of what they're creating would probably be pretty darn useful.
On the other hand, leaving "some places completely untouched" and having that include Cormyr and the Swordcoast - that just seems wrong, somehow. NOT that I want those areas to be destroyed, or that I hate the Realms or anything - but because a world-shaking cataclysm is more interesting if it affects the whole world, moderately, rather than just cut-and-pasting areas they found boring but leaving perfectly intact the areas they liked. It just seems way too artificial. And if Waterdeep is really untouched the way this implies, that's a shame - imagine how they could have refreshed the city if they'd let it be damaged, and then described how it recovered and what changes were wrought.
I think there are some strong story possibilities for the new Underchasm. I'm kind of "meh" on the Spellscarred, although not opposed to the idea - it certainly sounds more workable than Spellfire was, but it does sound a bit too much like an attempt to add Eberron-style Dragonmarks to the FR.
Ultimately, though, I guess my impression is that this should have been offered as an "alternate-" FR. If they'd come out with this as a post-apocolyptic FR, but said they were also publishing a book on how to run 4E with a Forgotten Realms that has had minimal changes since 3.5, I can imagine a lot of people being willing to look at both. They'd even be able to publish novels set in both versions... As it is, though, they're alienating a lot of people with their broad brush of change, yet not really eliminating the elements I thought would need to go (e.g. leaving Cormyr and Waterdeep intact; leaving Elminster out there pontificating away).
The PCs not being the star of their game is not the fault of the setting - it's the fault of the DM. NPCs should never, ever, ever upstage the PCs.
I absolutely agree with you - but a setting should support that. If everyone at the table wonders why Elminster (or other high powered good aligned NPC) doesn't just come along to save the Realms from disaster, then there is something wrong with the setting. A good DM of course makes sure that doesn't happen, but this should be supported by the setting, not in spite of it. What I hear from some (but hardly all) FR players is that the deux ex machinas were too expected/prevalent/etc.
Personally I haven't DM'ed the Realms and I can't imagine my players complaining that Elminster hasn't made an appearance if I did, but it seems to be a problem for others.
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The PCs not being the star of their game is not the fault of the setting - it's the fault of the DM. NPCs should never, ever, ever upstage the PCs.
While that's true, the DM then has to play in a setting that isn't the Realms, where every small village has a few 25th level spellcasters hanging up their hats.
Sure, they *could* sit around doing the dishes when the party stops the hobgoblin raid, but then why are you playing in the Realms setting anyway, if you have to specifically not use the material presented, and have the dozens of nigh-omnipotent good-aligned characters not actually do anything because it would cut into the players fun?
Is this a good representation of what the players good aligned characters should be doing, when they get higher level? Standing back and letting evil stuff happen for no particular reason? (Although that could be an amusing twist on the 'save the village' scenario, for the good aligned party of 4th level characters to come in and pat various 1st level Commoners on the head and offer them cryptic advice and moral support, while sitting back smoking pipes and watching the Hobgoblins tear them up...)
Are the players supposed to regard the uberNPCs as a 'safety net,' and just hare off and do whatever they want, knowing that some Deux ex Chosen will come teleporting in to yank them back on track (or save the day)? Ed Greenwood has said that was how he used Elminster, to pop in and drag things back on track, or smack the characters down and 'teach them some humility' if they got too rambunctious, after all.
I ran games in the setting for years, but I turned Elminster into an 8th level Diviner. His houseboy Wong or whatever wasn't the exiled prince of another land either, 'cause I don't do Harlequin romance. He was just an Expert who made good soup and had a gift for remembering where the old coot left his pipe this time. No pesky setting conflicts came up where a player wondered aloud why *they* had to work against Zhentil Keep, when the NPC good-guys have demonstrated on several occasions that they could strike the city to the ground in a night of fire.
When I played in other games set in the Realms, it was inevitably run by someone who ran Elminster as someone who showed up to lecture, set things on track and / or save the day. He was invariably indestructible as well, and when one player memorably got so pissed that he threw an axe at him, the DM responded, 'No you don't. You agree with him.' He was so uber, the PCs couldn't even *disagree with him!* As much as loved the (pre Time of Troubles) setting, I pretty much hated how everyone else ran it, with uberNPCs power-tripping all over the place. The published adventures tended to encourage that, particularly post Time of Troubles, when they had 'unkillable' NPCs and DM warnings that the party simply won't succeed if they try to do something, turning them into spectators, not *players.*
It may be a DM thing *more* than a setting thing, but I haven't run into this in Greyhawk, Scarred Lands or Eberron games, so I put some blame on the setting for encouraging this sort of NPC power-trippage. (Dragonlance, IMO, also did the same thing, particularly in any 'adventure' where Fizban tags along. Nothing says, 'your actions are meaningless, sit back and listen to what happens to you' than having a greater god in the party...)
*some good stuffs*
While I do agree that the NPCs as presented in the FRCS are way overpowered, I don't expect to use them in my game, nor do I expect the players fall into a "let them do it" attitude. The setting, as presented, does not have to be used or followed strictly - the DM should feel free to change it accordingly (as you did). Just because Elminster is in the book does not mean I should use him at every turn to save the party's bacon.
For me, the Realms are not about the NPCs (which seems to be the source of a lot of hate about the Realms) - I really could care less about them. It's about the history and, dare I say, the "forgotten realms" that are there for my PCs to explore. If I wanted to have the NPCs be center stage, I could just as easily give my players their associated novels.
I see post after post, here and elsewhere, about how the Realms sucks because there are so many powerful NPCs, and their characters don't get to automatically be the most powerful and special people in the world.
The Realms is a large, cosmopolitan, high-magic setting. It would be absurd and unbelievable if there *weren't* a lot of high-powered NPC's.
If players don't enjoy the game because they know "Elminster or Drizzt could be here doing this instead of us," then they need to find a new pastime that is more in line with their passive attitudes. What they *should* be saying is, "there's trouble and we're the ones here in position to stop it. Now is our time to shine. Let's not screw it up."
In the real world, does every mugging victim wonder why Delta Force didn't show up, rappelling down from black helicopters, to save him?
Your PC does not have a gods-given right to be the best and most important. Your PC should have the opportunity to become the best and most important. That's how RPG's have always worked.
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So, out of curiosity, does anyone like this? In particular, if you were not interested in the Realms before, does this make you want to play in it?
This is weak beyond weak. I was expecting something a little less clusmy for the Realms. If they wanted a core setting using the core cosmology, they should have just created one, not mutilated the Realms. They didn't do anyone any favors with this. People that liked the old Realms have effectively had their setting destroyed and these new Realms are just a brand new setting with a bunch of Realms lore crammed in. How does that make the Realms more accessible? I didn't even understand half of the article about wtf happened due to all the references to Realms history.
And this Abeir thing? Why not just make Abeir into the alternate universe Toril, a place very much like the FR, but one which has always operated under the 4e cosmology. You could even still call the products the Forgotten Realms if you wanted. That would have been a much better transition to 4e.
I agree that this a big pile of dump as Sebastion said. I don't understand Abeir and Toril being two separate worlds either. Abeir-Toril was supposed to be the name of the planet. Instead it's two planets on two separate planes. Is that what he's trying to say? This sort of chaos and stupidity is beyond words to describe. I truly hope that sales of FR products plummet after the new FR sees print. They really need to keep Richard Baker and his lackeys from having anything to do with the Forgotten Realms, maybe even D&D. Goodbye Forgotten Realms. Hello Completely Forgotten Gathering Dust on the Shelf Realms.
They just took the FR brand and threw it in the toilet. Come August they are going to flush it.
Your PC does not have a gods-given right to be the best and most important. Your PC should have the opportunity to become the best and most important. That's how RPG's have always worked.
Well said.
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In the real world, does every mugging victim wonder why Delta Force didn't show up, rappelling down from black helicopters, to save him?
Is Delta force all-knowing, friendly with dieties and able to go anywhere and do anything, completely unstoppably, by snapping their fingers? 'Cause if they are, then they darn well *should* be stopping muggers! And getting kittens out of trees and picking up litter and helping old ladies across the street! Snap those fingers soldier!
There's a saying, "All it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing." And there's the Realms in a nutshell. Dozens of 'good' characters who are personally powerful enough to destroy evil countries single-handedly, but choosing to do nothing. Do I *want* them running around fixing everything? Heck no. But if they have the power to do so, and *choose to sit around* and do nothing when the Realms has slaving nations and evil cities and whatnot, then they are accomplices. They've got an alignment that compels them to do something, and the power to do anything, and they don't use that power, and they don't follow that alignment, *so why the heck do they have them?* They're just way overwritten.
I'd rather have the NPCs remain (since most of them are interesting characters) and do what they can, since their goals are a big part of what makes them interesting, in which case they need to have far less power to be appropriate to their role and the setting assumptions that evil exists and heroes are needed and remain relevant.
I know there are 'kill Elminster!' types out there, but I was perfectly happy with him being an 8th level Diviner who could offer some useful 'sage advice' from time to time, but wouldn't be teleporting around, wiping out armies or curb-stomping demon-lords.
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In the real world, does every mugging victim wonder why Delta Force didn't show up, rappelling down from black helicopters, to save him?
True that, but the "official excuse" for the Realms high-level NPCs apparent lack of intervention in mundane matters, has been that "they're big, powerful guys, involved in big, powerful problems".
So, it seems that they failed. Hard. And after 100 years they're still around, 'cause they still should work as plot devices, rather than allies/opponents. Argh.
That implies that the whole catastrophic change to the setting is not done for advancing some sort of narrative metaplot (good, if debatable), but only to justify the mechanics changes brought forth by the new rules (bad). The worst elements from the ToT, on steroids.
Oh, please, kill them outright, once and for all (the whole Bane is gone but not really gone, anyone?).
Do their legend a favor. Their names and their failure (IF there's been one) could have way more meaning and impact that way.
Your PC does not have a gods-given right to be the best and most important. Your PC should have the opportunity to become the best and most important. That's how RPG's have always worked.
Agreed.
The PCs not being the star of their game is not the fault of the setting - it's the fault of the DM. NPCs should never, ever, ever upstage the PCs.I absolutely agree with you - but a setting should support that. If everyone at the table wonders why Elminster (or other high powered good aligned NPC) doesn't just come along to save the Realms from disaster, then there is something wrong with the setting. A good DM of course makes sure that doesn't happen, but this should be supported by the setting, not in spite of it. What I hear from some (but hardly all) FR players is that the deux ex machinas were too expected/prevalent/etc.
I wholeheartedly agree with both of you. Sure, the PCs are the stars, but seriously- show me a PC who can match Elminster- or any other ridiculously high level character(or organization in more recent editions of the game) in terms of power and experience? With respect to my own dislike of the realms, I'm not saying this to be snarky, I really want to know. Sure, Delta Force probably isn't going to show up to save someone from a random beatdown(great example, btw), but I'm sure if random terrorist group du jour took a spot on the 10 o'clock news saying they kidnapped the president's daughter and are going to inject her with a nanovirus, they'd be all over it long before the Guardian Angels even got on the A train.
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I think it is more likely they introduce the dragonborn that way as tieflings already exist in Faerun.
Also, I'm guessing that Returned Abeir might be how they introduce the tieflings. That would make sense to me.
Actually, no. In the first Countdown to the Realms they stated that the Dragonborn will appear in what was formerly Unther. In the second Countdown (which leads off this thread) they state that Returned Abeir will subsume the continent of Maztica.
I thought this might be an origin for the tieflings, because I remember them saying that there are so many tieflings because there was some human empire whose citizens made a mass deal with hell and became corrupted. The Returned Abeir thing would provide a way to explain the mass influx of tieflings.
In the real world, does every mugging victim wonder why Delta Force didn't show up, rappelling down from black helicopters, to save him?Is Delta force all-knowing, friendly with dieties and able to go anywhere and do anything, completely unstoppably, by snapping their fingers? 'Cause if they are, then they darn well *should* be stopping muggers! And getting kittens out of trees and picking up litter and helping old ladies across the street! Snap those fingers soldier!
There's a saying, "All it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing." And there's the Realms in a nutshell. Dozens of 'good' characters who are personally powerful enough to destroy evil countries single-handedly, but choosing to do nothing. Do I *want* them running around fixing everything? Heck no. But if they have the power to do so, and *choose to sit around* and do nothing when the Realms has slaving nations and evil cities and whatnot, then they are accomplices. They've got an alignment that compels them to do something, and the power to do anything, and they don't use that power, and they don't follow that alignment, *so why the heck do they have them?* They're just way overwritten.
I'd rather have the NPCs remain (since most of them are interesting characters) and do what they can, since their goals are a big part of what makes them interesting, in which case they need to have far less power to be appropriate to their role and the setting assumptions that evil exists and heroes are needed and remain relevant.
I know there are 'kill Elminster!' types out there, but I was perfectly happy with him being an 8th level Diviner who could offer some useful 'sage advice' from time to time, but wouldn't be teleporting around, wiping out armies or curb-stomping demon-lords.
Wasn't Elminster quoted in the Forgotten Realms 3.0 book as saying that if he ever did anything to overtly change the world for the better, world war would be the only result? I have to look that up...
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There's a saying, "All it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing." And there's the Realms in a nutshell. Dozens of 'good' characters who are personally powerful enough to destroy evil countries single-handedly, but choosing to do nothing. Do I *want* them running around fixing everything? Heck no. But if they have the power to do so, and *choose to sit around* and do nothing when the Realms has slaving nations and evil cities and whatnot, then they are accomplices. They've got an alignment that compels them to do something, and the power to do anything, and they don't use that power, and they don't follow that alignment, *so why the heck do they have them?* They're just way overwritten.
This point of view does not adequately represent the Realms nor does it reflect what "normal" powerful characters do in any campaigns that I know. Firstly, while I readily concede that there are powerful, Good, divinely-supported NPCs in the Realms (Elminster, Khelban Blackstaff, the Symbul), there are also powerful, god-favored, Evil NPCs that oppose them (Tzas Tam, Manshoon, the Xanathar, Fzoul Chembryl). As stated in the FRCS by Elminster himself, the Realms' powerful NPCs are mainly occupied with uncovering the plots of their opponents and putting the resources in place to disrupt those plans without directly involving themselves. Elminster does not sally into Thay and smack down Tzas Tam personally because he may very well perish in the attempt, causing a great loss for the forces of Good overall. And for the same reason, Fzoul Chembryl does not attempt the same to Khelban Blackstaff. He is much more likely to try and utilize the power of the Zhent agents at his disposal to gain a strategic advantage in their ongoing struggle. Just because Elminster is not out saving the Realms in a way the characters can understand does not mean he is not doing his part.
Secondly, I wonder how many "powerful" PCs are played much differently than how Elminster is handled. Do your 11th level characters teleport into goblin lairs and slay all the goblins to help out some village in need or do they spend their time on loftier pursuits? I would wager that as characters grow more powerful, the concerns that once occupied their time no no longer attract their skilled attention. Sure, there are still goblin raids on villages, but there are dragons to fight, demon hordes to hold at bay and artifacts to keep from the hands of the dangerous. PCs allow their characters the luxury of focusing on bigger problems in what might well be the very same sign of indifference that Elminster is being accused of here. Now of course the players assume that as their characters grow in power, other less skilled adventurers will deal with the "small problem" of goblin raids decimating the local villages while they focus on the much bigger issues that more fit their skill and experience in dealing with threats. In the same way, Elminster and his opponents are busy on the truly Realms-shaking issues, like deific balance and involvement in mortal affairs, the health of the Weave and other massive issues. They are no more free to go and kill every dragon that threatens a town than the PCs are free to clean orcs from a cave near their home village while trying to stop a madman from opening a portal to the Far Realm in the sewers of Waterdeep 1500 miles away.
Lastly, as Lilith mentions, the role of these powerful NPCs, both good and evil, is under the control of the DM. My characters (now 11th level in a Archendale/Deepingdale campaign) have never even been to Shadowdale nor even mentioned popping over to see Elminster for advice even given the proximity of the problems they are working on to his home. I have made it clear that any powerful NPCs are at least as busy as they already are and expect those of good heart to stand up for themselves and earn the title of hero on their own.
Elminster cannot heal the Realms of its ills alone, and this is where the PCs come in.
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An excellent way to say it. And I'm thoroughly convinced of such as well.QFT, my friend, QFT.
I'm having an increasingly hard time believing 4/e's designers even liked D&D, so instead they made a game they did like.
Yes, many of us have come to that same conclusion. They liked D&D when they were kids, grew to hate after they played too many other systems, and now they are remaking it in their own image to be the game they want it to be. Who cares, what we want? We only finance their company with our purchases.
The sad thing is you won't be able to get away from the word "Spellplague", every page of the campaign guide will have mention of this event, every country will have a history of this event, every module, source book story will contain the word "Spellplague".
There will be Spellplague creatures, Spellplague monsters, Spellplague ruins, Spellplague forest, Spellplague items,
Spellplague town and the spellplague Inn where everyone talks about the Spellplague!
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Can't have a plague without the ubiquitous plague rats, so I'm eagerly awaiting the new spellplague rats, who used to be familiars, but grew warped with the implosive deaths of their arcane masters, and retain a hunger for more magical energy, supped from the spilled blood of other unsuspecting arcanists!
Can't have a plague without the ubiquitous plague rats, so I'm eagerly awaiting the new spellplague rats, who used to be familiars, but grew warped with the implosive deaths of their arcane masters, and retain a hunger for more magical energy, supped from the spilled blood of other unsuspecting arcanists!
Do they get +1 to attack and +1 to defense for each of them that you encounter?
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with the Zhentarim trying to recover their power.
Heh, I missed that. The Zhents fell down again like a drunken prom date? [sarc]Gosh, that's a shock.[/sarc]
Lamest wannabe bad-guys, ever (although the Cult of the Dragon is vying for ultimate loser status, losing Dracoliches faster than most people lose left socks). It's like if Bennie Hill ran a criminal conspiracy...
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The sad thing is you won't be able to get away from the word "Spellplague", every page of the campaign guide will have mention of this event, every country will have a history of this event, every module, source book story will contain the word "Spellplague".
There will be Spellplague creatures, Spellplague monsters, Spellplague ruins, Spellplague forest, Spellplague items,
Spellplague town and the spellplague Inn where everyone talks about the Spellplague!
Spellplague Burger at McDonalds with the new Iconic Ronald McSpellplague.
The Spellplague Action Figures.The Spellplague Drink
The Spellplague Film
The Spellplague Board Game
The Spellplague Diary
The Spellplague Football
Endless possibilities....
Is Delta force all-knowing, friendly with dieties and able to go anywhere and do anything, completely unstoppably, by snapping their fingers? 'Cause if they are, then they darn well *should* be stopping muggers! And getting kittens out of trees and picking up litter and helping old ladies across the street! Snap those fingers soldier!
You are relying quite heavily on massive exaggeration to make your arguments. He is not in fact all-knowing, unstoppable and all-powerful. He is a high-level wizard with a very powerful template. He cannot be everywhere at once, and frankly, he doesn't necessarily *care* about the challenges your party is facing.
If your party is low-level, Elminster most likely neither knows or cares about what you're doing. If you're high-level, even if he does know about you, he probably figures the problem is in good hands and attends to his own affairs.
There's a saying, "All it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing." And there's the Realms in a nutshell. Dozens of 'good' characters who are personally powerful enough to destroy evil countries single-handedly, but choosing to do nothing.
False. There's not a single character in the Realms with that level of power. And you are ignoring the fact that there are many high-powered villains and evil organizations as well. Show me anywhere in Realms literature where Elminster has the opportunity to destroy the Zhentarim and chooses not to do so. Or where The Simbul has the power to destroy the Red Wizards but lets them go.
Do I *want* them running around fixing everything? Heck no. But if they have the power to do so, and *choose to sit around* and do nothing when the Realms has slaving nations and evil cities and whatnot, then they are accomplices. They've got an alignment that compels them to do something, and the power to do anything, and they don't use that power, and they don't follow that alignment, *so why the heck do they have them?* They're just way overwritten.
See above.
And a game will obviously suck if the PC's spend their time standing around and waiting for the Big Guns to show up and bail them out. Stop worrying so much about f***ing Elminster. Elminster isn't here. So let's go kill that damned dragon.
Then later, they can send El a nasty letter about how immoral he is for not teleporting in and having their adventure for them. "Enclosed, please find all the ee-pees we earned and all the gold we captured. It's no fun to succeed when we know you could have done this job instead of us."
If they want to watch other people being heroic, they should rent a movie.
It seems like you're complaining because the high-powered NPC's *could* function as dei ex machina, and then complaining because they *don't*.
I know there are 'kill Elminster!' types out there, but I was perfectly happy with him being an 8th level Diviner who could offer some useful 'sage advice' from time to time, but wouldn't be teleporting around, wiping out armies or curb-stomping demon-lords.
You're talking about how he acts in his own novels...because they're his stories, not your PCs'. The novels are not the game. Elminster kicks butt in stories where he's the hero. Your PC's should kick butt in adventures where they are the heroes.