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Point Two
I don't download anything illegally. Not books, not movies, not music. No torrents, rpping or ptping for anything that isn't legally available in that format. period.....
Same here, and I find someone who engages in such dispicable acts to be a disgusting person. A person who brags about doing it while complaining about the material is even worse. I don't care if they do eventually get around to buying the book, it is still a slimey, vile act.
I hope Paizo turns the offender's info over to the proper authorities.
I officially change this thread's name to:
LET'S BASH THE POOR GUY WHO MADE THE SIN OF GETTING A PIRATY COPY BEFORE PURCHASING TO SEE WHAT THE CONTROVERSIAL CONTENT WAS AND DID NOT BUY BEFORE AND LATER DELETE IT
That's cool, man. I guess extenuating circumstances and all. Same as leafing through it at the bookstore in my mind.
Others may disagree; I don't care to get into it. It makes sense to me.
RPG Superstar 2013
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You are really tough with someone you don't know his condition. If I want to lend a book to watch its content I would have to fly to 1000 miles away my contry and with luck I would find someone with the Player's Handbook. I don't live in New York and in my country any many young people still don't know what is a wargame , less a RPG with luck someone knows what is the Monopoly so don't judge before know the whole truth about something.
I edited this because I don't want to (somehow) be thought of as a bad guy. Let's just say I don't buy the whine that anyone with a computer lives too far away to get a real copy so they stole one. And maybe people who steal shouldn't defend themselves. Maybe they should just say "You are all right. I love this game and I don't want to contribute to its shrinking market."
In any event, you used the word pirated. You knew what you were talking about and I don't excuse the action for any reason. You didn't steal bread to eat. You stole a copy of a book to read.
You presumed to judge a beloved industry giant without knowing the facts, and yet you say to me 'Don't judge me. You don't know me.'
It might not matter. You might have fled the conversation. But if anyone else here casually accepts this behavior,. please understand a beloved hobby is suffering from a shrinking market. The writers and companies deserve their money, and every downloaded book is a crime that literally affects each of us.
So, you might not like this post, but it's more genial than the one I edited. Mostly I just don't want DungeonGrrl to kick me out of her cult before I submit my application. And I want nonthieves to like me.
I think I'm in love! ;-)In fact, I need a book with rules for slavery, torture, physcial abuse, blood sacrifices, and gods of rape (like in Thieves World). And no one will write it for me to buy.'
Apparently the next step is to let you apply to be a member of my cult. :)
Do you mean Nymphology? Or the BOEF?
'At least BoVD isn't a big joke like Nymphomancy.
I meant Nymphology, the name just got away from me. I own the (legal) pdf, but I haven't scanned it in some time.
The BOEF was closer, for waht it wanted to be, but it a miss. A near miss, but a miss. For a while I used some of it, but everything there ended up being not as good as things my group could come up with on our own. I would say it was on par with many of the Sex and DND fan guides that are easy to find, and free-er.
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reply to atrocious, almost completely off-topic, move along...
As I understand it - Record label involvement in tours is not especially common (although becoming more so). The basic principle is that the big four have such horrendous contracts that if you want to give money to the artist who made the music you should buy merch at a show you've paid to attend, and then pick up some of their early independent label stuff (although modern contracts are increasingly closing down these loopholes too). I think it was Steve Albini who did a fairly famous breakdown of where the cash goes and how a new band is in a lot of trouble unless they achieve massive success.
His central beef is that the big four are all part of conglomerates that also produce military equipment, and as a pacifist he refuses to be involved in funding the research, development and production if he can at all avoid it. I'm not a pacifist, which is why I went out of my way to avoid sayign that I agreed with him.
I hate pirates!
Attacking my ships, stealing my spanish gold...
Yeah, calling it piracy is the most ludicrous thing in media since "all your base". I never saw anyone entering the music store by force, killing everyone (except the cute girl behind the counter, which is only killed eventually) and then stealing track 5 of a single album.
They use cacophemism as a deterrence, just like they had those "software piracy is a crime" campaigns.
Though I have to say that I see more and more real enticements to buy instead of steal games and music.
/threadjack
It's because they only get a couple of bucks per sold album (I read once that it's only 2 dollars out of 15, but I can't say whether those were real numbers), but they get more per concert ticket. So if you "save" the money you'd have spent on the album and buy the ticket, the artist will get more of your money. (Not that I endorse stealing software and music)
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So, leaving aside the whole copying software side-debate (I've heard that buying single songs off of Itunes yields a larger percentage towards the artists, but I'm not sure how accurate that is), does anyone feel that the Book of Vile Darkness was over-the-top?
'Cause I shun movies like Saw or Hostel, just because I'm not into that sort of stuff (I'm squeamish!), and yet I thought the Book of Vile Darkness was pretty tame.
Monte *could* have written up a Book of Vile Darkness that dealt with rules for all sorts of real-world 'unpleasantness,' such as the effects of real-world diseases, toxins and drugs, or how to use real-world mental illness as part of an 'Insanity' system, or how to have characters suffer debilitating flashbacks, or inflict post-traumatic stress disorders upon them as part of some sort of 'Fright Check' or 'Terror Check' or 'Sanity Check' subsystem, but he didn't do any of that. He came up with some fake fantasy drugs, like Terran Brandy, some fake fantasy poisons, some fake fantasy diseases, etc. and mostly avoided real-world button-pressing issues that may have come across as offensive or insensitive to gamers with relatives suffering from mental illness, or who may have reason to be familiar with the real-world effects of post-traumatic stress, and wouldn't be thrilled to see 'game stats' for diseases or conditions that have so strongly affected their lives.
I was both relieved (since I didn't really want to hear the inevitable backlash from the Jack Chick Bible-thumpin' type of people if Monte 'went there') and a little disappointed. I'm an old-school D&D player, from back in the day when the DMG and MM had pictures of a Succubus with free-range boobies (and quite a few of the Dieties and Demigods goddesses wore similarly liberating attire), and it's been decades since then, so 'mature' content doesn't really shock me (and, indeed, 90% of what our culture deems 'mature' content these days is the sort of stuff that only teenagers are interested in, the sort of stuff that actual adults are like 'eh, that's pretty immature...').
There was exactly one line that jumped out at me in the book as being inappropriate and perhaps 'shockier' than it needed to be, and that was in the 'special items' section, in the description of an item made from a defiled unicorn horn. Unicorns, and their horns, in D&D at least, are not strongly associated with purity or chastity or virginity, as they are in more contemporary mythology, but are associated with healing and curative properties (cure wounds, neutralize poison). It would have made more sense, within the D&D interpretation of a unicorn, for the horn to have been defiled by using it to kill someone. (Life-giving healing item used as implement of murder, forcing the item against it's nature.) I wasn't so much offended by the route Monte went with that, but I felt it wasn't as appropriate as it could have been, and was the sort of subject matter that should only be used when it was 100% relevant, not thrown in as a one-line blurb in an item description.
Why should the record companies pay to set up conserts when no one seems to want to buy an album? No purchases = No interestI hate pirates!
Attacking my ships, stealing my spanish gold...
/threadjack
GeraintElberion pretty much covered it. The record companies usually have little to do with the concerts and most of the profits from concerts go to the artists. That is why a lot of groups try to tour as much as possible once they get an album or two out. Record companies really only make money off of album sales and licensing the songs.
My personal opinion, screw the record companies. There is no reason why 4 companies should control over 80% of the music in the U.S. along with most of the radio stations.
Also, I don't see downloading a pirated copy of a book any different from buying a used version of it. Either way, the author doesn't get money for it.
...I'm an old-school D&D player, from back in the day when the DMG and MM had pictures of a Succubus with free-range boobies (and quite a few of the Dieties and Demigods goddesses wore similarly liberating attire)...
I too am an old-school D&D player and agree with you at this point.
...Unicorns, and their horns, in D&D at least, are not strongly associated with purity or chastity or virginity, as they are in more contemporary mythology, but are associated with healing and curative properties (cure wounds, neutralize poison)...
I am not sure I agree with you on this point. There is no simple way to dig through old 1st edition reference material (and as a DM I very rarely used unicorns) but weren’t unicorns the Cadillac of mounts; only available to female elf/half-elf paladins.
Not that paladins by definition have to be virgins, but the implication was often there.|
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Also, I don't see downloading a pirated copy of a book any different from buying a used version of it. Either way, the author doesn't get money for it.
When you buy a used book there is still just the one copy of it. The owner, who paid for that single copy has the right to loan or sell his sole copy because once he pays for it, he literally owns that single book. The author has still recieved the original payment for the original single copy.
What you do not own, unless the author gives you permission, is the right to copy and distribute the contents of the book you paid for. Pirating music would be more akin to photocopying or scanning all the pages of a book and then giving those copied pages to all who asked for them. What you are doing then is in effect self-publishing the book without compensating the author.
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You are really tough with someone you don't know his condition. If I want to lend a book to watch its content I would have to fly to 1000 miles away my contry and with luck I would find someone with the Player's Handbook. I don't live in New York and in my country any many young people still don't know what is a wargame , less a RPG with luck someone knows what is the Monopoly so don't judge before know the whole truth about something.
Well, you could do what most people do: buy it and then decide afterwards if you liked it after reading a legitimate copy. It is what most people do. And you could do that easily - if you have internet access, presumably you can access Amazon?
It contain things that even a non Christian could feel incomfortable using them in a game session.
Bad grammar aside, I'm a non-christian, and I'm offended by your assumption that that automatically makes me a horrible, depraved person.
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Point Two
I don't download anything illegally. Not books, not movies, not music. No torrents, rpping or ptping for anything that isn't legally available in that format. period.....
Same here, and I find someone who engages in such dispicable acts to be a disgusting person. A person who brags about doing it while complaining about the material is even worse. I don't care if they do eventually get around to buying the book, it is still a slimey, vile act.
I hope Paizo turns the offender's info over to the proper authorities.
I officially change this thread's name to:
LET'S BASH THE POOR GUY WHO MADE THE SIN OF GETTING A PIRATY COPY BEFORE PURCHASING TO SEE WHAT THE CONTROVERSIAL CONTENT WAS AND DID NOT BUY BEFORE AND LATER DELETE IT
This thread is getting really prickly, and it's starting to piss me off. My spidey sense is tingling.
My advice to everyone:
I think the real crime is that wizards tries to sell its pdf books for essentially the cover price of a print copy online. In my mind a pdf copy of a book should be about half cost or less of a real book. When they try to fleece you so bad for an e-book it doesn't give a lot of incentive to buy it legally. For instance there are a lot of dnd books that I'm not interested in enough that I want to pay full value for a print copy, as I don't think I'll get that much use out of them, and I am running out of room for all my gaming books. However, I would be happy with a pdf of said book. However, when I go to investigate this alternative I find that they are trying to sell the pdf for the same cost as printed book. That's BS. They have cut out the printing cost, they have cut out the distribution cost, and I imagine the retail cost is reduced as well. In my mind that should mean that they can sell their e-book a much lower price, but they don't.
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It contain things that even a non Christian could feel incomfortable using them in a game session.Bad grammar aside, I'm a non-christian, and I'm offended by your assumption that that automatically makes me a horrible, depraved person.
That's not the only way to interpret that sentence. Someone could just as easily post, "I'm a christian, and I'm offended by your assumption that that automatically makes me a prudish, close-minded, judgemental person."
But he probably didn't mean to imply either interpretation.
It contain things that even a non Christian could feel incomfortable using them in a game session.Bad grammar aside, I'm a non-christian, and I'm offended by your assumption that that automatically makes me a horrible, depraved person.
You probably shouldn't take offense. He likely didn't mean that Christians are more 'moral' or whatever, he probably was referring to the whole anti-D&D thing that is often led by Christians (no offense Christians), and that Christians might be especially angered by the 'evil stuff in there'. Correct me if I'm wrong, I mean no offense to either side.
That's not the only way to interpret that sentence. Someone could just as easily post, "I'm a christian, and I'm offended by your assumption that that automatically makes me a prudish, close-minded, judgemental person."But he probably didn't mean to imply either interpretation.
I disagree. The idea that even a non-Christian would be offended implies an assumption that non-Christians must have lower moral standards, otherwise it would not need to be stated. It is possible that this was not the intended meaning, but I can't imagine what the correct interpretion would be in that case, unless by 'non-Christian' he meant 'non-prude', which brings us to your other point.
You may very well correct in that a Christian might be offended by the inverse, though the full implication would be "I'm a christian, and I'm offended by your assumption that that automatically makes me a prudish, close-minded, judgemental person like you.", since Patricio seems to have been elevating himself above the non-Christians.
I don't want to get embattled in a flame war here. Honestly, I shouldn't have said anything, since I hate debating religion on the internet, but since I can no longer remove my first post, I will settle for clarifying it.
So, leaving aside the whole copying software side-debate, does anyone feel that the Book of Vile Darkness was over-the-top?
Nah, not really. But don't forget that we're talking Evil here. Not "I short-change people when I can" evil, but Evil with a capital E.
Monte *could* have written up a Book of Vile Darkness that dealt with rules for all sorts of real-world 'unpleasantness,' such as the effects of real-world diseases, toxins and drugs, or how to use real-world mental illness as part of an 'Insanity' system, or how to have characters suffer debilitating flashbacks, or inflict post-traumatic stress disorders upon them as part of some sort of 'Fright Check' or 'Terror Check' or 'Sanity Check' subsystem, but he didn't do any of that.
Well, those things might be bad, but not necessarily evil. Although, of course, he might have included that stuff to show what consequences evil-doing can have ("Don't try to flee, kid, cause I can show you stuff that can seriously mess up for life").
Anyway, he did some of that stuff in CoC d20.
I'm an old-school D&D player, from back in the day when the DMG and MM had pictures of a Succubus with free-range boobies (and quite a few of the Dieties and Demigods goddesses wore similarly liberating attire)
Current D&D really is a bit too clean for my tastes. I don't say that it should use the f and s words as often as WoD does, but even those twelve-year-olds won't get a heart attack if the succubus shows off bits of its anatomy.
There was exactly one line that jumped out at me in the book as being inappropriate and perhaps 'shockier' than it needed to be, and that was in the 'special items' section, in the description of an item made from a defiled unicorn horn. Unicorns, and their horns, in D&D at least, are not strongly associated with purity or chastity or virginity, as they are in more contemporary mythology, but are associated with healing and curative properties (cure wounds, neutralize poison). It would have made more sense, within the D&D interpretation of a unicorn, for the horn to have been defiled by using it to kill someone. (Life-giving healing item used as implement of murder, forcing the item against it's nature.) I wasn't so much offended by the route Monte went with that, but I felt it wasn't as appropriate as it could have been, and was the sort of subject matter that should only be used when it was 100% relevant, not thrown in as a one-line blurb in an item description.
Well, I guess it isn't so bad, since, as you said, it's just one line. I won't start burning Monte's books because he used the more general myth instead of some of the more obscure D&D-ised lore.
Well, you could do what most people do: buy it and then decide afterwards if you liked it after reading a legitimate copy.
I only do that if I have read good reviews, heard good stuff from people I know well, and/or like the rest of work from this author/company/product line.
Otherwise you can go to a game store and skim through before buying. But that only works if you have a game store (or anything that sells RPGs) near, which isn't true for large parts of the world.
Right now, I wouldn't blindly buy anything Wizards releases.
I have no problem with people downloading something to "test it", providing they either delete it or get the actual book after they testet it. And I'd say the companies think alike: Better have someone downloading the thing to look at it and then buy a copy than not bothering because he doesn't have a way to see whether he likes it.
It is what most people do. And you could do that easily - if you have internet access, presumably you can access Amazon?
Does every country have its own Amazon? I know there is amazon.com, .de, .fr, .ca, .co.uk, but is there amazon.ru? Amazon.br? .pl?
And ordering from .com doesn't work for everyone, since not everyone has a credit card.
I think the real crime is that wizards tries to sell its pdf books for essentially the cover price of a print copy online.
I like Paizo's way of doing it: "Subscribe and we throw in the PDF for free".
So, leaving aside the whole copying software side-debate, does anyone feel that the Book of Vile Darkness was over-the-top?
Nah, not really. But don't forget that we're talking Evil here. Not "I short-change people when I can" evil, but Evil with a capital E.
Monte *could* have written up a Book of Vile Darkness that dealt with rules for all sorts of real-world 'unpleasantness,' such as the effects of real-world diseases, toxins and drugs, or how to use real-world mental illness as part of an 'Insanity' system, or how to have characters suffer debilitating flashbacks, or inflict post-traumatic stress disorders upon them as part of some sort of 'Fright Check' or 'Terror Check' or 'Sanity Check' subsystem, but he didn't do any of that.Well, those things might be bad, but not necessarily evil. Although, of course, he might have included that stuff to show what consequences evil-doing can have ("Don't try to flee, kid, cause I can show you stuff that can seriously mess up for life").
Anyway, he did some of that stuff in CoC d20.
I'm an old-school D&D player, from back in the day when the DMG and MM had pictures of a Succubus with free-range boobies (and quite a few of the Dieties and Demigods goddesses wore similarly liberating attire)
Current D&D really is a bit too clean for my tastes. I don't say that it should use the f and s words as often as WoD does, but even those twelve-year-olds won't get a heart attack if the succubus shows off bits of its anatomy.
There was exactly one line that jumped out at me in the book as being inappropriate and perhaps 'shockier' than it needed to be, and that was in the 'special items' section, in the description of an item made from a defiled unicorn horn. Unicorns, and their horns, in D&D at least, are not strongly associated with purity or chastity or virginity, as they are in more contemporary mythology, but are associated with healing and curative properties (cure...
That is a pretty long post.
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Point Two
I don't download anything illegally. Not books, not movies, not music. No torrents, rpping or ptping for anything that isn't legally available in that format. period.....
Same here, and I find someone who engages in such dispicable acts to be a disgusting person. A person who brags about doing it while complaining about the material is even worse. I don't care if they do eventually get around to buying the book, it is still a slimey, vile act.
I hope Paizo turns the offender's info over to the proper authorities.
I officially change this thread's name to:
LET'S BASH THE POOR GUY WHO MADE THE SIN OF GETTING A PIRATY COPY BEFORE PURCHASING TO SEE WHAT THE CONTROVERSIAL CONTENT WAS AND DID NOT BUY BEFORE AND LATER DELETE IT
This thread is getting really prickly, and it's starting to piss me off. My spidey sense is tingling.
My advice to everyone:
Sorry for being a dick. I kinda feel bad now. I just wanted to steer the discussion in a more productive direction. The reason being that I was the subject of such a discussion on pirated material about a year back, and I don't want it to happen to anyone again.
Fakey: I think you're a great guy, but seriously, take a freakin' breather. Lecturing people on somewhat outdated ethics via internet isn't likely to change their minds, and frankly isn't anyone's business.
Patricio: I completely see where you're coming from, as I've been in the same boat before. However, it *technically* is still breaking the law. Ergo, it isn't anyone else's business. Kind of like bragging on the boards about robbing a bank. You just DON'T DO SHIT LIKE THAT.
No offense meant to any of the above parties, but seriously, this is NUMBER ONE on Mr. Shiny's "WE DON'T F!@#ING TALK ABOUT THIS. EVER." list. In case you're wondering, #2 is POLITICS.
As much as it shows off the fact that I am a complete idiot, I'm going to chime in on this one.
First off, while trying not to sound too much like an @$$hat, to the poster who said downloading illegal PDFs is evil, grow up. Evil? No, sorry, raping someone is evil, kicking babies is evil (unless their crying before you kick them) voting republican is evil, theft, nuh uh. If you think theft is evil (especialy this kind of theft, as in Monte Cook isn't exactly out panhandling, nor is wizards going bankrupt) then you realy need to get out more. I really do meen to not come off as a jerk with this, but I just can't let that comment slide.
Personaly I'll agree with the guy saying the Book of Vile Darkness was tame. I think Monte Cook is an amazing artist, and I have a ton of respect for his work, but I would say this is the weakest book I have seen by him. There are some neat ideas here and there throughout it, but for the most part I thought it hinted about and skirted the issue far too often. Granted, I'm not saying we need a couple hundred page book with detailed rules on rape torture and human sacrifice, but if your going to call some the Book of Vile bloody Darkness I would expect it to be...oh...I don't know...vile maybe...Perhaps it's my history with World of Darkness and Black Dog supliments (think that's what they were called) but other then the fact that the monsters are cool and some of the feats are useable this book was a huge letdown.
Well, I accept it, I got a pirate copy of a RPG pdf it was the Book of Vile Darkness by Monte Cook. I got it only for curiosity about the content, and it is really wicked and twisted. It contain things that even a non Christian could feel incomfortable using them in a game session. I don't have anything against the guy but if you see their work it is mostly about dark things as evil extraplanar creatures, dark lore and occultism, horrible and bloody rituals, and so on. Have you used this book? How did you use it? Is the guy obsessed with this themes?
You've been chastised for your rather un-Christian actions already...but, FYI, the book was sold in stores with either an 18+ or 21+ Only tag on it giving fair warning to the buyer that the content was not appropriate for all audiences.
I also completely understand the argument against piracy because it is theft, but as I look at the songs on my Ipod I realize I'm not really in a moral position to judge. also admitedlly those who do not download any form of media are. Guess this is just a "let he without sin cast the first stone moment."
Uhhh, I'll cast the first stone.
I own all my pdfs. And I kinda hope for my mortgage's sake you all own mine too. ;)
Onward Christian/Hindu/Muslim/Jewish/Voodoo/Shinto/Animist/etc... Soldier,
GGG
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I own all my pdfs. And I kinda hope for my mortgage's sake you all own mine too. ;)
Onward Christian/Hindu/Muslim/Jewish/Voodoo/Shinto/Animist/etc... Soldier,
GGG
I notice it is a common failing of the human race to assume that if "I" am doing a thing then everyone else must be doing it as well. Liars tend to assume everyone lies. Adulterers tend to assume everyone cheats. And thieves tend to assume that everyone steals.
Put me in the "refuse to own pirated material" camp as well. Theft is theft.
As much as it shows off the fact that I am a complete idiot, I'm going to chime in on this one.
First off, while trying not to sound too much like an @$$hat, to the poster who said downloading illegal PDFs is evil, grow up. Evil? No, sorry, raping someone is evil, kicking babies is evil (unless their crying before you kick them) voting republican is evil, theft, nuh uh. If you think theft is evil (especialy this kind of theft, as in Monte Cook isn't exactly out panhandling, nor is wizards going bankrupt) then you realy need to get out more. I really do meen to not come off as a jerk with this, but I just can't let that comment slide.
I am of the beilief that you should take care of your own house. In a general sense though, taking something that doesn't belong to you is wrong. If you choose to do something wrong and not correct it, that cannot be a good thing. I agree you are not evil but but that does not mean you are right or less-bad.
Goo
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RPG Superstar 2013
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...voting republican is evil, theft, nuh uh. If you think theft is evil (especialy this kind of theft, as in Monte Cook isn't exactly out panhandling, nor is wizards going bankrupt) then you realy need to get out more...
I love that someone making money for their ideas determines whether an action is right or wrong. Wizards has money, so it's ok to steal from them.
Admittedly, pirating books or software is not the same level of evil as, say, socialism. But there's no excuse for pirating info, and there's no excuse for tolerating it.
The hobby is in danger. Critics of 4e: if it weren't for pirates, 3.5 might be rolling strong,and sales might be 10 or 50 percent more than they across the industry.
I would love to know from Erik or Lisa an industry figure for how much product shrinkage there is due to piracy. Maybe that would create some perspective.
Voting republican is evil, unless you mean voting for capitalists to make money and denounce theft. Or allowing 30 million and women and dissenters to vote.
He started it. : }
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The reason I like Monte Cook's presentation in the BoVD goes back to when he was the editor for Hero System when Dark Champions came out.
That was followed by the work he did on Planescape.
Overall, I find he takes a simple, straightforward approach to Evil.
No parsing, or hedging, or maybe this or that.
"This is bad. It makes people suffer. It is Evil."
Only after establishing that base does he allow for any possibility of justification, and even then he still makes it clear that the burden is on the justifying, not on the judging.
Sure, you may want to be super-vigilante man, ignoring all limitations of law in your quest to bring justice, or at least vengeance, to those who more than deserve a major league smackdown. But check that again - you are starting off admitting you are above the law. Do not try playing the victim when I hold you accountable for that.
Monte Cook writes Evil well.
No, it is not explicit. It does not delve in the most hideous recesses of human imagination possible, and leave your screaming in the night.
In some ways, what he does is worse. He sets down the standards that hold you accountable for the least transgressions.
Yeah, yeah, the evil demon lord blah, blah, blah.
How many innocents did you sacrifice in your quest to stop him?
That makes you better how?
The Book of Exalted Deeds was cheap. I have been severely repulsed by that presentation of Good in D&D and the Great Wheel since it began to appear at the end of the Planescape run. It does nothing but throw power at players to bribe them to pretend to be Good, while justifying any atrocity provided you can label the target Evil first.
The Book of Vile Deeds shows you how easy and fun it is to be Evil, then throws it up in your face just how casually you can slide over the line and become just another villain. It makes it a challenge to be Good in the face of such darkness.
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Uhhh, I'll cast the first stone.
I own all my pdfs. And I kinda hope for my mortgage's sake you all own mine too. ;)
Onward Christian/Hindu/Muslim/Jewish/Voodoo/Shinto/Animist/etc... Soldier,
GGG
See, that's the kind of thing people actually want to buy, rather than skim. From my experience, people only download things if they're not entirely sure they want to buy them.
It should be the responsibility of either the writer of the supplement or the publisher of the supplement to make sure that their customers want to buy the product.
As someone of questionable morals, I have no problem with people downloading material. Information is information. I find downloading material the same as reading a book from cover to cover while still in the store (the latter is something I do with frightening regularity).
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...voting republican is evil, theft, nuh uh. If you think theft is evil (especialy this kind of theft, as in Monte Cook isn't exactly out panhandling, nor is wizards going bankrupt) then you realy need to get out more...The hobby is in danger. Critics of 4e: if it weren't for pirates, 3.5 might be rolling strong,and sales might be 10 or 50 percent more than they across the industry.
How do you know this? Answer: nobody does.
I would love to know from Erik or Lisa an industry figure for how much product shrinkage there is due to piracy. Maybe that would create some perspective.
I'd like to know that, too. It would help put things into perspective.
Voting republican is evil, unless you mean voting for capitalists to make money and denounce theft. Or allowing 30 million and women and dissenters to vote.
He started it. : }
... not touching this ...
Not evil but not less-bad? I don't meen to pick apart every little detail of something someone sais, cuz it's pretty easy to tear anything I say to utter shreds, but I have to comment on this. To me it is absolutely less-bad. My example, raping someone is evil, where theft isn't. Are you saying rape and theft are equally bad? Cuz man I hope not. I'm not saying theft is good, or even really ok, just arguing when I think of something as evil, I think of it as something I wouldn't even do for money. Which, yes I'm a very low morels person, but there is precious little I wouldn't do for money.
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I don;t think the entire dialogue was served by the term evil. The impression I got from the word evil was that there's some irony in that an uninformed criticism of the book was offered by someone who stole the book.
You could just as easily boil that argument down to some stealing is evil and some isn't. But I think the point that ought to be made isn't focused on everyone's very different idea of evil. It's that stealing (and by extension piracy) is wrong.
Software, music, or text piracy are not in fact, acts of brutal violence. They aren't even acts of piracy, as an astute poster reminded us. But piracy is the word we use for such an act this day, and the real thing to keep in mind is that it's wrong,and it hurts the authors and companies that bring us a great game.
To respond to Mr Shiny specifically: I hope I made it clear I don't know the exact numerical impact of piracy on the gaming industry. 10-50% is a huge range and I am just pointing out there is some harm done, and that harm means we shouldn't have any tolerance for the act. I'm not gonna beat you up for reading a book at a bookstore, although I would discourage that in my bookstore. But that's hardly the same as walking out with a reference book full of rules and artwork.
In any event, like a lot of issues I guess there's never gonna be a consensus. I feel it's wrong, it's bad for business, and there's never a reason to defend it. I'm not gonna cost myself friendships here over it. That is to say I am not gonna (hopefully) wear out my welcome with a gaming friend just because of the actions of a gaming nonfriend.
I just wish musicians and writers could get paid for their work.
As much as it shows off the fact that I am a complete idiot, I'm going to chime in on this one.
First off, while trying not to sound too much like an @$$hat, to the poster who said downloading illegal PDFs is evil, grow up. Evil? No, sorry, raping someone is evil, kicking babies is evil (unless their crying before you kick them) voting republican is evil, theft, nuh uh. If you think theft is evil (especialy this kind of theft, as in Monte Cook isn't exactly out panhandling, nor is wizards going bankrupt) then you realy need to get out more. I really do meen to not come off as a jerk with this, but I just can't let that comment slide.
I am of the beilief that you should take care of your own house. In a general sense though, taking something that doesn't belong to you is wrong. If you choose to do something wrong and not correct it, that cannot be a good thing. I agree you are not evil but but that does not mean you are right or less-bad.
Goo
Ok, let's put in jail people who goes to public libraries to "steal" books instead buying them.
You probably shouldn't take offense. He likely didn't mean that Christians are more 'moral' or whatever, he probably was referring to the whole anti-D&D thing that is often led by Christians (no offense Christians), and that Christians might be especially angered by the 'evil stuff in there'. Correct me if I'm wrong, I mean no offense to either side.It contain things that even a non Christian could feel incomfortable using them in a game session.Bad grammar aside, I'm a non-christian, and I'm offended by your assumption that that automatically makes me a horrible, depraved person.
You are right
Hello guys thanks for all the input, the support and even the insults, that will show me to not say people I downloaded a pirate copy of a RPG book anymore, so they will believe I am good :)
No one has touched yet two questions I made in the starting post:
Have you used this book? How did you use it?
I would appreciate any input about your own experience using the book, thanks.
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I own and read it a while back. My abiding memory of it was that it dealt with the some rather silly stuff and made "evil" seem a bit banal. "Evil" varies on what really un-floats your boat (to some people, copyright violation, but we've been there) so to me it never really seemed to really address what evil is, but rather to tried to provide mechanics for some rather obvious symptoms of evil - drugs and so on. My personal take on it is that it doubtless contains some good rules for stuff not tackled in the mainstream books, but I wouldn't lash out a fortune for it if you were planning on getting a hard copy. (Some of the art is a bit unpleasant, but not remarkably so.) My preference is for Heroes of Horror (the first half of the book, anyway) which I think, under the "horror" tag, deals with issues like this better (i.e. it isn't that much about game mechanics and more about how to evoke dread and terror in your players).
Speaking from the center of the IPR piracy universe, this talk makes me laugh in a bemused way. I hardly have the time to address a quarter of the issue, but I do want to say this.
If someone pirates something like a game book, and it is REALLY worth having, they will buy it because it is a repeat use product. This is not always the same for music, and especially less so for movies.
So, by providing a quality product that people will want to buy (either for reason of honesty or for reason of practical physical use), I think a publisher can be satisfied that their loss is less than a vendor who is providing crap. Namely, WotC's Races and Classes would seem to me to be a prime candidate for piracy. People want to look at it, but it is of no use for a prolonged gaming period.
Now why don't you beat up on me for a while guys. I've d/l'd all kinds of stuff (guess what, it's not illegal here) because I can't go to a bookstore and get it. If you really care I have bought everything that I use and I can show you receipts for it. I'm not using Monte Cook's books but you can bet your ass that I would snarf one before ordering it from North America if I thought I wanted it. If it was crap I would delete it and make space on my drive to d/l HD recordings of my favorite TV shows--none of which I have any chance of seeing here through regular media. If the book was was good I would delete it and order it. And for the record, I'm not even going to bother d/ling WotCs recent crap. Why? Cause I already know I'll never buy it.
Interestingly, right now, the only gaming company I trust enough to buy something from before I look at it is Paizo.
First: I thought you said you were leaving this thread.
Pirates always trick people, remember?
It contain things that even a non Christian could feel incomfortable using them in a game session.Bad grammar aside, I'm a non-christian, and I'm offended by your assumption that that automatically makes me a horrible, depraved person.
You can think like that but I did not intend you do. Moreover you should be aware that speaking ill of someone's second language grammar is a low blow.
If someone pirates something like a game book, and it is REALLY worth having, they will buy it because it is a repeat use product. This is not always the same for music, and especially less so for movies.So, by providing a quality product that people will want to buy (either for reason of honesty or for reason of practical physical use), I think a publisher can be satisfied that their loss is less than a vendor who is providing crap. Namely, WotC's Races and Classes would seem to me to be a prime candidate for piracy. People want to look at it, but it is of no use for a prolonged gaming period.
I agree here. I guess they wanted to scare and shame us into copying less media by calling us evil, criminal, communists (I'm not making this one up) and making it sound as if we kill babies or something when we copy material, but I think the only thing it really achieved is antagonising us.
What they should do is give us something we will happily buy, and for the asked price.
Now why don't you beat up on me for a while guys.
Okay. Why not? *puts on heavy steel gauntlets and starts beating up* ;-)
Moreover you should be aware that speaking ill of someone's second language grammar is a low blow.
He didn't exactly have a go at you with the hosswhip, he just called it.
Be aware that beyond those who are writing in a language foreign to them (like you and me), trolls usually use "relaxed spelling and grammar". I'm not calling you a troll, but the combination of less-than-perfect grammar and openly saying that you downloaded the book without paying for it could be seen as trolling by some. That might explain some of the vitriol you have encountered.
Hello guys thanks for all the input, the support and even the insults
You *liked* the insults? I could give you some more, if you insist. Always happy to be of service. :P
These boards sure are weird. One guy wants to be beaten up, the other thanks us for insulting him. ;-)
Have you used this book? How did you use it?
Yes, I did, as inspiration for Villains, and for many PCs, too. We like to play campaigns with evil characters. Some do it to get it out of the system, some just want to try something different, and others like to stop pretending for a couple of hours every other week.
We used some of the feats, the info about the Demon Princes and Archdevils, the torture equipment is on the standard equipment list for many a villain (as we get to higher levels, we usually have a partable hole with a complete "studio" in it.).
Right now, we're having another evil fun campaign we play when we don't have enough players for a proper session. Of course, we started at epic levels, with gestalt rules, so everything was nice and way-over-the-top. I play a fiendlich (succubus as a base, but that guy never seduced anything - he was created undead from the very start) warlock/dread necromancer who likes to kill things, animate their corpses, and have them do silly stuff.
Albert's crowning achievement musst be the Tarrasque skeleton that is furnished inside. He calls it the Unliving Room.
Are you saying rape and theft are equally bad?
No one's saying that, but evil isn't just comparative. When something's bad, it's bad, no matter how many things out there are worse. "At least I didn't..." is no justification or excuse.
The Book of Vile Deeds shows you how easy and fun it is to be Evil, then throws it up in your face just how casually you can slide over the line and become just another villain.
Ah, the "good" old pre-slide days. Boring to death. ;-)
The hobby is in danger. Critics of 4e: if it weren't for pirates, 3.5 might be rolling strong,and sales might be 10 or 50 percent more than they across the industry.
Or it might be less than 1%.
You must distinguish between those who will buy the stuff if they can't get it for free, and those who won't.
Some people want to play D&D, and they would buy those books if they didn't get it for free, but since they found it somewhere "for free", they won't. But I don't think that there are that many people like that.
I think the vast majority of downloaders is either:
those who wouldn't buy those books and only got them for free because they could. That might be because they don't have enough free cash to buy it (or think they don't have enough cash), or because they only want a couple of pages and won't pay for the whole book (most of which they think of as garbage) just for a couple of good parts, other times someone in the party already has the book so they could look at it or borrow it.
or
those who will download it as a trial version. If they like the book, they will go and get a real one, spending money on it and all that. If they don't like it, they will probably never look at the book again (they'll either delete it or forget it, or maybe turn into someone from option one and only use the few parts they liked about it)
I'd say that in most cases, there is no real loss: Either they wouldn't have sold the book anyway, or they will sell one eventually. In fact, I'd argue that in this case, those "evil pirated" versions generate revenue for them, because people who otherwise couldn't have had a look at the book - and therefore wouldn't have bought the book - will now buy it after trying it.
I could be wrong, but I don't think that "Evil Piracy" is a reason why sales are so bad. I do believe that it's often used as an excuse, a way to blame someone else for bad results. "No, it's not because our stuff is crap, and too expensive crap at that. We're doing badly because of those commie pirates!"
I completely agree with the comment about illegal downloading being an easy excuse for selling high priced crap. Not to say this is always the case, but as someone who has been in more than a few arguements over casting gamesworkshop miniatures it strikes a chord.
I don't agree with the comment of what's bad is bad however. Very little in life is black and white for me, and what few things are black or white I understand are not the same for others. Circumstance has quite a bit to do with things in my perception.
In the interest of not being totaly off topic, I've used the book a few times, but not as often as I would have liked. The fluff is for the most part insperational, even if I don't think it's as well done as it could have been. Rulewise, I've used a spell or two, maybe a feat, always intended on using a few of the prestigue classes but not gotten arround to it. The two "new" races were especialy worthless, as I don't realy need a write up on a REALY REALY evil human, or REALY REALY evil halfling. I like the gods, though I don't consider them anything especialy worse, or more over the top than what's in the PHB (not sure if that was the intent or not thought). All in all it's a good book to have, but I would say there are better out there.
Ok, it's time for everybody to be cool. We're all being so nice, now.
Isn't this great?
Arrr! Shivver me timbers! Swab the poopdeck or ye walk the plank! Haharrr! Arr, matey! Rum! Pirates, arr! Dead men tell no lies, arr! BLOODY PIRATES!
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Ok, it's time for everybody to be cool. We're all being so nice, now.
Isn't this great?
Thank you, sir.
The next person to say something rash gets a fistful of blank post, courtesy of my good friend Id Vicious, so I'd appreciate if everyone were to BACK THE F%%$ OFF.
With all due respect, of course.
I'm choking on a sock...what ever you do...don't pull it out.
Gagged order