But that's not to say it's a bad module per se - just that the Pathfinder bar is very high.
Of the four RotRL modules so far, this one has been my least favorite. It's interesting because Hook Mountain was one of the best modules I've read in a LONG time. FotSG just left me kind of "meh".
The attack on Sandpoint was a nice start. Definitely lots of potential for action.
The design of the fortress and dungeons beneath just seemed kind of random. Lots of seemingly-unrelated encounters thrown together, one after another.
For example, there is a high-level kobold barbarian hanging out in one room, 2 red dragons in another room, 2 lamia clerics right next to them, and then 2 troll fighters. And they don't really seem to be doing anything. I mean they are just kind of there. I know there are explanations but they seem thin at best.
The lower level is similar. Lots of square rooms connected by corridors with a different creature in each - a giant, golem, nasty undead ogre thing, weird furnace demon, and then a couple of evil demon dogs. *shrugs*
I haven't ran it yet but it strikes me as a serious meat-grinder. Once the players get inside the dungeon, the baddies are continuous and there is almost no place for the characters to rest.
Dunno, I just the overall dungeon ecology of this module seriously lacking. There was no interaction between the occupants or good explanations as to why they were there or what they did before the adventurers showed up to slaughter them.
I think this would be the first module in the series that I significantly change, especially the library dungeon level. Apart from having a lot of random encounters, I felt it lacked flavor. It didn't feel like an ancient library at all. Compare this dungeon design to the assault on the Fort in Hook Mountain, Foxglove Manor in Skinsaw, or Thistletop in Burnt Offerings. Those locations are AWESOME. They are great locations because they have unique features, are written in a way that oozes flavor (Foxglove feels haunted), and the occupants make sense.
On an final note, I'd like to emphasize this "criticism" is from a customer that has been immensely impressed with the Pathfinder series so far. The writing and design has been great, which is why I was surprised feeling the way I did after reading this module.
The adventure will be tough, no question. This is one of those adventures where the PCs can easily "bite off more than they can chew". The party is pretty much scr*wed if they stir up all the monsters at once. So they have to find the sneaky way in.
But most high level adventures are like that, and this one is for 10th. My group has something like 150 years of combined D&D experience. I fear what they will become by 10th level.
The non-giant opponents are quite varied, but I don't think the explantion for them is any more thin than other modules in general or pathfinder specifically.
Just my two cents but I have a feeling Wolf was going for the old 1e Against the Giants feel. Which I must say I think he captured. While I'll admit for what little I've run through so far of this adventure it's not my favorite of the 4 published adventures, it holds its own. Defently liked defending Sandpoint again, though this time with a chance prepare. But you'll get that feeling of one adventure is better or has kewler locations then others when each one is written by a different author.
I personally love that aspect, and feel that is one of Pathfinder's strong points. I look forward to finishing Wolf's adventure and seeing how it all comes together. Even if so far it's not my favorite.
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I have the same difficulty with FotSG as I had with HMM; where's the RP in this RPG?
FotSG is somehow even more tactical - the players are back in Sandpoint and they have no interesting encounters before the raid, why? I'm going to have to cook up encounters to remind the players that this is a treasured place just so that the decisions they take when defending the town have genuine tension. And once they leave Sandpoint I'm going to have to cook up more RP on the road to avoid a bleak onslaught of tactical battle encounters, over and over.
When people want to defend tabletop rpgs from the claim that computer rpgs are superior they talk about the endless possibilities and the role-playing - so why are people giving in and producing tactical battle adventures?
The best moment of Burnt Offerings came for my group when everyone was having a jolly time, cracking jokes about Aldern's boar-hunting antics and egging each other on to drink from Nora's tank at the Hagfish whilst the barman span a yarn. Then Amele burst in, distraught, and the change of tone was palpable - nobody wanted to go back to the Hagfish that night and the party absolutely agonised over how to break the news to Amele of her husband's death...
My players have had a great deal of merriment and a real emotional jolt - all before they even reach the glassworks - and that's why I think James has produced an absolute corker of an adventure. I'm going to have to work hard on changes (well, mostly additions) to PF3 and PF4 to have the same quality and intensity of experience.
However, I'm still sticking with the series because I actually think that what they do have, whilst overly-concentrated upon one aspect of dnd, is top-notch. The Grauls, Fort Rannick and the entire valley in FotSG look like they're going to produce really great tactical experiences.
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I´m with Geraint. The thing that hooked me most on the pathfinder were the roleplaying encounters, even if i didn´t use them, they were good ideas that i could learn for future references. A RP encounter it´s all about choices that will shape a character, and in higher levels the choices should be harder and tougher to make.
I´m with Geraint. The thing that hooked me most on the pathfinder were the roleplaying encounters, even if i didn´t use them, they were good ideas that i could learn for future references. A RP encounter it´s all about choices that will shape a character, and in higher levels the choices should be harder and tougher to make.
For those of you who really dig on the RP scenes and situations, let me just say that Curse of the Crimson Throne is definitely more up your alley.
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I´m with Geraint. The thing that hooked me most on the pathfinder were the roleplaying encounters, even if i didn´t use them, they were good ideas that i could learn for future references. A RP encounter it´s all about choices that will shape a character, and in higher levels the choices should be harder and tougher to make.For those of you who really dig on the RP scenes and situations, let me just say that Curse of the Crimson Throne is definitely more up your alley.
Yay!
So when do we get the 128 page harcover "Welcome to Graul Valley" with the mature content warning and fold-out Big Mamma Graul wall art?
I´m with Geraint. The thing that hooked me most on the pathfinder were the roleplaying encounters, even if i didn´t use them, they were good ideas that i could learn for future references. A RP encounter it´s all about choices that will shape a character, and in higher levels the choices should be harder and tougher to make.For those of you who really dig on the RP scenes and situations, let me just say that Curse of the Crimson Throne is definitely more up your alley.Yay!
So when do we get the 128 page harcover "Welcome to Graul Valley" with the mature content warning and fold-out Big Mamma Graul wall art?
Fold Out Mammy...now that's an idea! :-)
Yeah, I was re-reading my Edge of Anarchy manuscript and I am sad to say it is surprisingly tame...except for a couple of scenes...MUUHAHHAHAHAHAAHAHA!
For those of you who really dig on the RP scenes and situations, let me just say that Curse of the Crimson Throne is definitely more up your alley.
Cool.
My players are a little averse to hack and slash. I'm gonna do some judicious editing on RotRl and see it a little shortened, or replace a few parts, I think. No serious complaints though, and it's turning out to be a great story.
Overall, I think RotRL has had a great mix of environments (cities, dungeons, wilderness, etc), combat, and role-playing.
And while Hook Mountain and FotSG are definitely more combat-heavy, HMM was by far better executed.
First off, the bad guys were awesome and actually offered a lot of role-play possibilities. When I was reading HMM, I was thinking to myself "I so want to run this!" because it would be so much fun to play up the creepiness of the ogres. So while the role-playing in HMM isn't really social interaction, there's certainly a lot of opportunities for some over-the-top characterizations.
I don't really see any opportunities for that in FotSG. The baddies are just there and are fairly static in personality.
From a tactical standpoint, I also view HMM as superior. The farmhouse is a really cool location for a fight. The enemies have a reason to be there and respond accordingly when fighting breaks out, even fleeing to certain areas if necessary. The traps and other occupants make it a dynamic location.
Same goes for the assault on the fort. The players have a lot of options for getting into the fort and the module provides rules for different methods of infiltration.
Again, FotSG lacks this as well. While there is definitely a lot of combat in both HMM and FotSG, HMM is a lot more dynamic. FotSG is a room-to-room slugfest and lacks cohesion.
I haven't scrutinized "Fortress" too much yet (I am loath to print out the adventure if I have the issue in the mail ), although it looked a bit "barren" to me as well.
As for HMM and Roleplaying - sorry to say, that issue is shock-full with hooks, opportunities and mood-setting moments which will draw in players. Roleplaying is not solely social interaction with peaceful NPCs (and those, btw, are the easiest to improvise and conjure up for your group as no definite stats are really needed most of the time), while scenes like the undead Nymph Princess, the ogre-troll stand-off, the eventual fate of the pit-fiends or simply some unexpected revelations of plot in mid-fight are wonderful stuff.
These are the situations players will remember (and do relish, in my excperience ) as the key-events of an adventure, when suddelny the group has to interact and rethink its approach while under pressure. And those are the things far harder to brew up in an instant than simply another town encounter, shop or inn.
Probably a matter of playing style though.
What I didn't really like from the short glances I have taken at "fortress" is its archetypical appearance and setup - I am old-enough to have played the original against the giants in the eighties, and look bak, even as I have some fondness for a youth misspend, I loath what they did to campaigns overall - massive opportunities for senseless, guiltfree slaughter and mayhem....
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I have to agree with Glassjaw here, I got the exact same impression. Specifically, the first three had amazing character interactions and storylines that involved NPCs with a host of negotiation, investigation, terror and meaningful combat. I have loved them all, it's turned my view of D&D in new directions.
But #4 will be getting quite a bit of add-ons and fixin's from me when I run it. NPC interactions are nearly gone, with the exception of a discussion or two that *might* take place once in the dungeons. Otherwise it's a big fightfest start to finish. A good one, no doubt, but it suddenly seems lacking that element the first thre thrived on so well.
Still, the artwork, the Pathfinder Journal, the new monsters, and the awesome article on Dragons easily still make this a winner.
-DM Jeff
I think that for my campaign #4 is going to be the most role-playing intensive since number one. Of course, the trick is that my PCs are all giantkin. :)
My point is that the path is full of lots of different stuff so that it facilitates play for a lots of different folks. The authors have to stuff huge amounts of detail into a small number of words (and future paths will have even fewer words, if I understand correctly). We have to fill in the rest.
So what's lacking? A connective story for the dungeon crawl? Clearly the giants have all been gathering and this is essentially a military camp waiting for the big push. Should we give this its own thread and come up with interconnecting plots?
So what's lacking? A connective story for the dungeon crawl? Clearly the giants have all been gathering and this is essentially a military camp waiting for the big push. Should we give this its own thread and come up with interconnecting plots?
Some ideas:
I think the idea of a giant army (literally) camping outside of an ancient library that houses their master is very cool. I just didn't like the dungeon design.
Here are some ideas I posted on EN World:
The first thing I would probably do is make the dungeon levels larger but remove some of the baddies. I'm not a fan of the one-room, one-monster design.
I do like the mummy monk in the outside tower but I thought the tower itself wasn't detailed nearly enough. I would probably flesh out the tower a bit more and make it the entrance to the lower level and make the mummy the guardian to the library. As-is, the mummy is a cool enemy but seems out of place (one-room, one-monster syndrome again).
The one RP encounter in the dungeon is with the Conna, the stone giant sorceress. I thought the background on her was cool but again, the "payoff" for forming an alliance with her wasn't that spectacular at all. I would definitely get her more involved and help the PC's more than saying "go this way".
I would also make the library level feel more like an actual library instead of a bunch of square rooms connected together, each with a different monster.
See, its the reverse for me. HMM didn't really get my engine going at all, but I see tons and tons of opportunities with FotSG. One man's treasure and all that.
I look to what the voices of Paizo (in my head) have been saying about Pathfinder all along: Pathfinder is meant for more than one type of roleplayer. Personally, I'm all over the board. Sometimes heavy roleplaying satisfies me, sometimes I want to shove a boot up a giant's a$$. Sometimes I want to poison the king and seduce the queen and make off with the crown jewels - sometimes I want to Braveheart all over the place, charging into the melee and accidently getting the taste of war in my mouth.
I like that not every Pathfinder follows a formula and that is why I am highly satisfied with #4 - Keep up the good work Paizo and the diversity of adventures!
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I think the rp'ing possibilities are a bit harder in PF#4 since giants, and especially stone giants, are so alien. I read and will re-read the Ecology article. I think it will go a long way to giving the the stone giant adversaries and potential allies substance in dealing with them.
The encounters though, do look pretty brutal.
Creative Director
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First off: Keep sending in the comments and observations!
FotSG is very much supposed to be an old-school adventure in the vein of the Against the Giants adventures; there are certainly roleplay elements to it, but it's definitely a more hack n slash adventure than the first three. This is by design; we want each Pathfinder adventure to offer something different in an adventure path, so not all six parts will end up being dull to a group. The flip side of that is, alas, a chance that some adventures won't go over as well for you. I'd rather risk that than have an entire adventure path not work for people for lack of variety.
That said... when you look at Runelords as a whole, it IS more about tactics and classic dungeoncrawling than it is about roleplaying. We tried to set up Sandpoint in a very detailed manner so that even in later, more combat heavy adventures, your PCs will still have NPCs back home to interact with, though. But in the end, since Runelords was the first Pathfinder AP, we wanted it to be very traditional and familiar in a lot of ways to gamers.
And yes, Curse of the Crimson Throne is indeed a lot heavier on the roleplay elements; that's not just limited to the first adventure.
Agree with the OP 100%, except that I am just plain underwhelmed by this entry . The first three adventures in this series are great. A nice mix of adventure, roleplaying, and mystery. This one? A lot of combat with some pretty boring monsters.
Comment on monsters (minor spoiler):
On top of that, I have a major plot concern (major spoiler for #4):
Which is great, except that I'll have to toss out most of the material provided in the module and improvise the whole thing.
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I haven't quite finished reading through it, but from what I have read I agree that this one is my least favorite. Don't get me wrong I still like it and I am sure my players will like it also.
It will have to be a more stealthy infiltration of the fortress than an assault thats for sure. If the PC's stir up the giants on the first or second level they are most likely dead. But if they use some good strategies and are lucky they won't have to battle that many giants.
I think this adventure would be great for rangers and rogues, especially if the ranger's favored enemy is giants they could really shine. I might have to drop some hints in the early part of the adventure about that.
On top of that, I have a major plot concern (major spoiler for #4):
** spoiler omitted **
I had a similar moment in running Burnt Offerings: the PCs initially wanted to fortify and defend the town. Now, they decided against that, but I would have let them. No module will ever predict the number of solutions a small group of people will come up with. The fact that your players occassionally force a radical change in an adventure, whether homemade or published, is the great advantage of pen-and-paper RPGs. Good on your players!
Good on your players!
Yep, I love 'em for it.
However, this seems like a reasonable tactic for PC's to take, and yet there's no advice or guidelines to cover this turn of events in the adventure. Given that it sidetracks over half of the published content, I find this pretty disappointing.
Published adventures, by their nature, have to assume that the PC's stick to the story. However, this one seems more railroady than normal. The adventure just assumes that the PC's are going to undertake a very dangerous mission when there are arguably better, safer alternatives. Maybe my players are just more cautious than most, but I'd be surprised.
FotSG is very much supposed to be an old-school adventure in the vein of the Against the Giants adventures; there are certainly roleplay elements to it, but it's definitely a more hack n slash adventure than the first three.
I have no problem with old-school and I have no problem with hack n slash on occasion.
What I do have a problem with is boring dungeon design. To put on my editor hat for a moment, the first thing I would have said about the library level is "boring!" A bunch of square rooms neatly connected with with a fairly random monster in each - no thanks! Please try again.
It's an ancient underground library/monastery once occupied by a sect of wizard/monks that worshiped an entity called the Peacock Spirit for pete's sake! This is the best dungeon you could come up with?!
And I quote:
"The monks, scholars, and wizards who dwelt in the Therassic Monastery trafficked with creatures of aberrant appetites, devils and strange creatures now lost to arcane knowledge"
I would have loved to have seen a devil in this level of the dungeon. What about a huge, labyrinth-like room filled with books and shelves and a devil that still guards them? One of the cool things mentioned in the text was that the shelves are really high and there are no ladders because the monks and wizards used levitation to reach the upper shelves. Throw in a devil that can fly or levitate at will and has cleared out some of the shelves and uses them as alcoves to hide in and snipe at the PC's.
Speaking of levitating, maybe there are some (now-faulty) levitation devices that the library curators used. The PC's could find them and try to use them. Maybe they go haywire at the wrong time. Hilarity (and danger) ensues.
"...but most of them perish to the menacing guardians that still occupy the halls."
The only "guardian" I can see that would be leftover is the scanderig but it doesn't really guard anything. It's described as being able to move through walls. As a writer, I would have put this entry at the beginning of this level and given descriptions and tactics this creature uses to stalk the PC's while they explore. It's a great monster but as written, almost seems like a throwaway. A better dungeon map (especially one more maze-like) would really add to this encounter. A demon that can walk through walls and use guerilla tactics on the PC's as they explore? Awesome.
The clockwork librarian was very cool but again, I would have liked to have seen more "leftovers" from the time of the original occupants.
I would have also made the cauldron more of a focal-point of this level. As it is, it's just sitting in one of the early rooms. Oh, there's a golem in there too. If I was Mokmurian, I'd want to keep this thing close-by and in my own chamber (and probably keep the golem close by as well). A nice touch for the final room would have been to have the PC's walk in while a giant is in the cauldron and starting to emerge. Maybe the giant will emerge in a number of rounds while the PC's battle Mokmurian.
Anyway, just some ideas off the top of my head.
On top of that, I have a major plot concern (major spoiler for #4):
** spoiler omitted **
Essentially, all fortifying does is get hundreds or thousands more people killed. Which works just fine for Karzoug, especially since the PCs are likely to recruit from Turtleback Ferry, where the vast majority of the populace has been runemarked.
You should probably remind your players of the old adage: The best defense is a good offense.
Eh, I disagree to an extent, in that I did see a couple of opportunities for RP:
The surround giant camps offer some opportunities, but players may need to make use of enchantment spells or polymorph to fully realize those opportunities.
While the redcaps are murderous bastards, it's clear they resent the giants, so there is an opportunity to form a brief alliance. I'll probably tweak the kobold encounter to allow something similar (where the pc's could ally with the redcaps or with the kobold)
In addition to the one friendly/vengeful Stone giant NPC, the PCs can also enlist the red dragons (albeit, briefly).
I noticed that the stone giant fortress looks to be ~80 miles from turtleback ferry, as the crow files. PC's can use hit and run tactics, if necessary, since they can more or less get from their stronghold at Ft. Rannick to the Black Tower via one days travel (with use of Phantom Steed or Overland Flight).
That and if the PCs deal with the Night Wyverns and Redcaps, they can certainly use the river cave entrance.
I was thinking that a neat idea for a side trek might involve a few wayward Stone Giant brigands and a small detachment of Hellknights looking to someone to blame for recent acts of Highway robbery.
In response to Zurai's spoiler comments...
Also, in the aftermath of adventure #3, the PC's spent a lot of time fortifying and reinforcing their keep. They may very well see defending their keep as the next logical step in the adventure.
We tried to set up Sandpoint in a very detailed manner so that even in later, more combat heavy adventures, your PCs will still have NPCs back home to interact with, though.
I think this point can't be made strongly enough. It represents one of the biggest things I underestimated about the Shackled City Adventure Path (and is an idea that I think translates well here as well). My player group has gotten heavily involved in the city itself and that translates to all subsequent adventures in the path with out requiring that more RP be written into the adventure. While I love the RP that is written into adventures (Paizo authors seem to be phenominal at this), it would become tougher and tougher to create applicable RP encounters in the same setting as the events of previous RP encounters will have played out differently from group to group and there for the necessary events may or may not have occured for any given group. In play though a DM still has all of that old material and interaction to pull from and this increases the RP in later portions of an adventure path far more than a solitary look at an adventure might reveal.
In SCAP for example, I found that I am having a ton RP in Flood Season compared to what is written in the book... not just because of my own additions and those I have stolen from the boards, but because the PCs have gotten to know the city and are now driving much of this interaction. I think RotRL #4 will very much experience the same thing, it just doesn't come out in a straight reading of the adventure.
For me, the part that I have most missed in these adventures is the opportunity to continue introducing the players to Golarion during the travel sequences of this adventure. There is ample cases of detailing out cities and the 'fluff' pieces in the Pathfinder Chronicles do a great job of it, but I want more of that in the adventures for my players to experience! When I run FotSG, this will probably be my biggest addition to the adventure along with something or someone who helps the PCs understand the importance of tactical thinking in the approach and infiltration into Jorgenfist.
All that said, if this follows the route that the other APs have had and receives a tremendous number of additions from the community on these boards, I think there will be far more to add than I can come up with on my own.
Sean Mahoney
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Hey, dont forget the existance of the Shinning Child and the Hounds.
I think I'm going to definitely re-map much of the library, adding in all my favorite disturbing or horrible outsiders, of all the best varieties: the traditional demons and devils, the new sort of tentacled bug demons (Obryths), and my personal favorite: HCFBR's (horrible creatures from beyond reality.). Some will be bound or trapped, so they can be interacted with in a non-violent way. At one point, they will pass through an area of crystal windows, and be able to look at the bound horror that, yes, they will have to get past several rooms later.
The Scandrig is being re-worked into a Phyrexian-style Machine Demon, like from Ice Age, and the Clockwork Librarian is going to be simpler and more magical. I've always felt that Thassilonian architecture would be super-simplified. for example, they might not even have hinges on their doors: the doors just sort of float there, and move to the side when you push on them. So the librarian is going to be made of sort of floaty, unconnected metal components, with a blue glow emanating from within. Or maybe not so extreme, bit he's still going to be less mechanical. Plus, I know I may get some hate for this, but the first thing he says will be "hello, my name is 849 Regretfull Scholar, and I am the caretaker of this Library. How May I be of assistance?" in a bubbly, cheerful voice.
IMO, the more RP situations the better, but I tend to agree with Sean's thoughts.
re: travel sequences
I concur as well, though admittedly we have the Gazette in #3 in addition to the encounter lists, which certainly offers enough to provide Golarion-specific sequences. As we (DMs) come up with these ideas, I hope that we post them here, as they will only serve to enliven the world.
Best.
We tried to set up Sandpoint in a very detailed manner so that even in later, more combat heavy adventures, your PCs will still have NPCs back home to interact with, though.I think this point can't be made strongly enough. It represents one of the biggest things I underestimated about the Shackled City Adventure Path (and is an idea that I think translates well here as well). My player group has gotten heavily involved in the city itself and that translates to all subsequent adventures in the path with out requiring that more RP be written into the adventure. While I love the RP that is written into adventures (Paizo authors seem to be phenominal at this), it would become tougher and tougher to create applicable RP encounters in the same setting as the events of previous RP encounters will have played out differently from group to group and there for the necessary events may or may not have occured for any given group. In play though a DM still has all of that old material and interaction to pull from and this increases the RP in later portions of an adventure path far more than a solitary look at an adventure might reveal.
In SCAP for example, I found that I am having a ton RP in Flood Season compared to what is written in the book... not just because of my own additions and those I have stolen from the boards, but because the PCs have gotten to know the city and are now driving much of this interaction. I think RotRL #4 will very much experience the same thing, it just doesn't come out in a straight reading of the adventure.
For me, the part that I have most missed in these adventures is the opportunity to continue introducing the players to Golarion during the travel sequences of this adventure. There is ample cases of detailing out cities and the 'fluff' pieces in the Pathfinder Chronicles do a great job of it, but I want more of that in the adventures for my players to experience! When I run FotSG, this will probably be my biggest addition to the adventure along with...
In response to Zurai's spoiler comments...
** spoiler omitted **
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FotSG was the best of the series so far for me. But then I love things in D&D that are reminicent of past adventures.
Also, what I have found is what I read is one thing but the play of it is another totally. My group is just starting HMM so it will be a couple of months before we play FotSG.
The whole path has been fantastic. I look forward of years of APs and modules.
So I've only read the new monsters.
Awesome stuff, really and truly! :-)
Response to Zurai (don't you just love spoiler conversations?):
Because Mok hasn't gathered his entire army to his stronghold. There's only a bare dozen or two giants there, and by that point they've already fought that many at once attacking Sandpoint. Mokmurian is still gathering his forces and launching probing attacks across the area. If left alone, he'll have a massive army. Right now, his main fortress is comparatively undefended. All of that is spelled out pretty well in the module actually.
I'm not sure that I'd consider the 200+ giants outside the fortress as being "comparatively undefended", but I see your point. I guess that my hangup is that this isn't mentioned in any of the information available to the players. (For example, if the PC's capture a giant in Sandpoint, he tells them that Mok has already gathered 7 giant tribes each comprised of dozens of giants, plus a considerable number of trolls/ettins/ogres. That's far more than a typical 10th level party can handle.)
I suppose I'll tweak the giant's answers to emphasize that the giant army is just starting to get organized. I bet my players still decide to go on the defensive. (Or, if they feel bold, resort to scry/buff/teleport/kill tactics on Mok.)
I haven't realy read the adventure through yet, but I had to ad one oppinion my mine.
Alot of you seem to be complaining about the library level saying that it is just a bunch of square rooms connected by corridors. I have some thing to say about this.
First, itäs logical. People build square rooms and corridors and have always done so. You might be saying that you find it boring, not illogical, but honestly, shouldn't the encounters speak for themselves without having to have oulandishly shaped rooms.
Second. There is a circular room there too.
Third, and this was accutally the first thing to come to mind. There are only nine rooms. I'm guessing my players wont even have time to think of the shape of the rooms before there done there.
Just my oppinion about that. But I'm known for being stark raving mad.
shouldn't the encounters speak for themselves without having to have oulandishly shaped rooms.
Yes, the encounters are boring too. Enter room. See monster. Kill monster or be killed by monster. Go to next room.
This installment is a bit different, it does come across as more combat heavy, but only in the sense of mounting urgency. When a party of heroes becomes aware of giants massing and marching for war, some PC's may place a roleplaying moment to have tea and crumpets with Hannah from Sandpoint at the lowest of their current priorities.
I'm only spoilifying this for brevity:
From this without any further prompting after fully interrogating Barl, she plans on going there directly.
Any massive formations should make short work of Varisia unless she can manage to cut off the head of this army.
I anticipate that she can utilize two tactics I am anticipating. Since I'm a Star Trek fan, I think of how the crew handled the Borg when they were on the Borg cube and Beverly Crusher suggests to Data to consider the perspective of the mosquito: sure, the mosquito can't hope to kill a big critter, but perhaps it can give the critter pause to scratch. In that frame of mind, she might either bluff her way in as allies (her party has enough medallions), or she might wait for a good moment to stealthily infiltrate the interior. The one is more audacious, but the latter can work if she takes time to carefully observe before going in.
Taking time to observe the different camps, I'll allow for the possability to maybe wait for them to get by one of them when they get distracted by an argument that erupts into chaos. She has characters with enough spells, that they might try something else. Only if they come blazing at the fort with swords drawn in broad daylight would they be looking at a bad tactical decision.
For the library, I did enjoy the angle-less rooms. It harks back to the meditating sphere in the catacombs of wrath. I wouldn't expect that the place should be a maze per se except that any library "seems" like a maze to those unfamiliar with reading. I imagine Valeros, Seoni, and Merisiel all arriving there and feeling lost and overwhelmed with books, thinking that all the books look the same and look boring. Kyra, being the only one comfortable around books of any kind will expound about boolean searches and other means of categories that sound like a foreign language to the others. Without Kyra, taking a "20" would otherwise take years and would be quite a sleep-fest.
The ambience otherwise works for me in the library. I might tweek it a little only because I've been playing Planescape: Torment again these past few weeks, and I'd love to inject my own oddness into the already alien library.
Otherwise, I find Pathfinder to still satisfy my hunger. Sure, there has been everything in every installment so far, but I think Wolfgang's contribution is just as outstanding for me as I have felt of the others.
Yes, the encounters are boring too. Enter room. See monster. Kill monster or be killed by monster. Go to next room.
Are we still talking about the library?
C3 has Paizo's iconic stone golem with simplistic programming. It can be bypassed with a second-level cleric spell, or it can turn into a fight. Sneaking past it once doesn't mean that characters can sneak back out, of course. This room also has the cauldron that produces more runeslaves (and I plan on dunking at least one of my PCs into it). Depending on how things go, this is where rebellious giants might be facing off against the PCs.
C4 has a team led by someone who can instantaneously report to Mok about what's going on. It's an intelligent undead who's loyal to Mok. The opponents are all initially frozen and don't even look animated. There's potential here for discussion or commanding or even feeding Mok false information, assuming that the PCs are smart enough to figure out what's going on.
C5 has a scanderig who has been around for ten thousand years. It moves through the walls and is quite intelligent. There's little chance of it just standing and fighting.
C6 has a shining child, which is a cool monster. People aren't going to know what it is or how to fight it. I'll grant you that this is an instance where the PCs need to stand and fight (or else run away), but I don't think that this is enough in and of itself to qualify the encounter as boring.
C7 has the clockwork librarian, which is hardly intended as a combat encounter.
C8 has three hounds of Tindalos. They're bound and angry, and if the binding could be released they could be a help against Mok (or could stalk the PCs indefinitely, or both).
C9 has the big bad, which I'll grant you is another place where the PCs likely just need to stand and fight.
I'll grant you that the dungeon has a bunch of combat in it, but I think that it'll be easy to run the encounters in a non-boring manner.
Or we could just rework them. :) What would you like to see encounter-wise in the library?
My group is pretty happy with Runelords.. but when I mentioned Curse of the Crimson Throne was urban with lots of politics and heavy role-playing.. they went nuts with excitement. They all signed up for the next game, even though that might not be for months.
Take that as feedback James!
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I love the siege on Sandpoint, read that part really quickly but throughly, so far the rest is here & there, but I like the adventure so far. Something about readin the parts & in my game so far, the encounters will impact npcs that some of the pcs know, so that'll make the encounters more memorable.
Later on thou,I get that room #3 has 4 giants ready to take out the PCs. Room #4 has 3 bears in it, so, so far I get that Keep on the Borderlands feel, maybe it'll go away when I read the adventure more (up to the Black Monk encounter (which is really cool btw!!).
Rest of the book is great, love the Stone Giant ecology, love the dragon ecology & of course the new critters. Just more info for my fast becoming favorite rpg setting.
Still, better then most WOTC adventures I've read in a LONG TIME, ha ha.
RM
My player is going to tackle this situation politically, trying to find allies among the giants for action against Mokmurian--he has started by recruiting Barl's bodyguard (the one whose partner Barl casually murdered--not a lot of love there). The PCs do not consider a direct assault viable.
I think it's going to be hard work to run, and probably much of the printed material won't be useful. I'm at least pleased that there are some notes on giantish politics, but I'm going to need a whole lot more.
For me personally, the juicy part of this module is the cauldron and Mokmurian himself, especially his relationship with Karzoug. I'd like to get that a lot more on-stage. I want the PCs to see some Cauldron-Born earlier, for one thing. Ideally, they should see one of their giantish allies transformed in this way. Maybe the trigger that gets the PCs directly involved (rather than working politically behind the scenes) is, in fact, the cauldron.
I was never going to be a prime customer for an "Against the Giants" remake. I didn't find it very interesting when we played parts of it way back when, and I'm not nostalgic now. But I think there's enough material here to mine out a workable adventure, though it's going to be much more difficult to GM than #1 or #2.
Mary
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Just really getting into FotSGs. So far I love it. SOmeone earlier mentioned that in this adventure we get plain old stone giants, as opposed to newly envisioned goblins and such. Personally, I have to disagree. While I would have loved a bigger write up about stone giants, what was there is more than enough to create a real character with. Up until now, I have not really seen ANY fleshing out for stone giants. For the first time we have something to work with, a vision of them that has been lacking before.
Granted what is shown, is a lot more back end stuff that won't make it into play, like giants sitting around a fire during the night listening to the bard retell a legend. But with some creativity it could just make it into play somehow.
While I haven't fully digested PF4 yet, my initial reaction is a good one. I must admit this module stirs up fond 1e memories as a player going "Against the Giants" and later running it as a DM. I also like the fact that each module in the series does have a different style yet remains cohesive to the adventure path.
I figure if I really play up the scanderig, librarian, and runeslave production facilities, and maybe cut the giant encounters by 2/3, I'll be able to get through this without anyone walking out on the game. Maybe playing on the nostalgia value will help; unfortunately in this case, Mr. Baur's sheer prestige won't (for whatever reason, my group actually seemed to like "Gathering of Winds" the least out of all the AoW adventures).
I'm glad I'm not the only one that left Fortress of the Stone Giants with a "meh" feeling. There are some cool parts that I like such as
but by and large it's a bit formulaic. I don't know what I was expecting, though, and if the point was 1st edition Against the Giants, mission accomplished. I liked the reimagining of goblins and ogres, but the stone giants are still pretty bland to me.
My copy just arrived today (talk about great timing - an early Christmas present), so I haven't had a chance to do more than flip through it. I was never a fan of the Against the Giants AD&D modules - I bought them, found them tedious and uninspired and never ran them, so this adventure may not be to my tastes either.
What I did love though was the Hounds of Tindalos. Their write up was fantastic - I love what was done with them.
I also really loved my Paizo Christmas card - it totally made my day. I'll be singing the Goblin Holiday song for the rest of the day :)
I was never a fan of the Against the Giants AD&D modules - I bought them, found them tedious and uninspired and never ran them, so this adventure may not be to my tastes either.
Same. I'm not sure why people cite similarities with the AtG series as a compliment. To me, that signifies illogical dungeon design and ecology. In other words, not something to strive towards as a designer.
I can see someone having a sense of nostalgia with those modules but I wouldn't use them as a template for good dungeon/module design.