Wicht's RotRL


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Male Human of the Shoanti Shriikirri-Quah Tribe Barbarian 3
DM Wicht wrote:

Not that I've ever drowned a cat mind you

Methinks he dost protest too much!


4 grapplers seems reasonable. And by substances, I meant different substances, not the same substance stacked. So a tanglefoot bag that knocked a creature into a web would stack with the web for effect, but not with a second tanglefoot bag.


Male Human of the Shoanti Shriikirri-Quah Tribe Barbarian 3
DM Wicht wrote:
4 grapplers seems reasonable. And by substances, I meant different substances, not the same substance stacked. So a tanglefoot bag that knocked a creature into a web would stack with the web for effect, but not with a second tanglefoot bag.

Here is our argument that Paizo needs to account for multiple grapplers. I was thinking just stack all CMBs to any one grapple roll but limit the number to two grapplers plus the difference in size modifiers (ogre gets +1, goblins get -1 so that's two plus two goblins). The problem with this is that some creatures get a negative CMB and my suggestion would not account for them.

Scarab Sages

Male Human Expert 3/Cleric 3

I started a new thread for this conversation.


Male Human Fighter 1

if my sword shard is around easy to grab i try to pick it up, otherwise i run to use the dagger.


Eugen Enescu wrote:

if my sword shard is around easy to grab i try to pick it up, otherwise i run to use the dagger.

You can pick it up as you enter the room, allowing you to attack this round if you want to.


Male Human Fighter 1

for when an opening arises, after all the grappling stuff gets worked out, though this roll is terrible. also i know i had a -1 to hit, do i have some bonuses that were not part of the blade? I'm sorry I'm so terrible at remembering this stuff, i should buy one of those books someday, the pdf is such a pain.

when I see an opening, I run forward and!

to attack (1d20 =1)

oohhh...


Male Human of the Shoanti Shriikirri-Quah Tribe Barbarian 3

When Mitnal's turn comes up:

Spoiler:

Assuming Mitnal got close enough to attack, Mitnal swings his warhammer at the whatzit. He's not use to having to avoid allies.

1d20+4=9, 1d8+2=8


Eugen Enescu wrote:

for when an opening arises, after all the grappling stuff gets worked out, though this roll is terrible. also i know i had a -1 to hit, do i have some bonuses that were not part of the blade? I'm sorry I'm so terrible at remembering this stuff, i should buy one of those books someday, the pdf is such a pain.

when I see an opening, I run forward and!

to attack (1d20 =1)

oohhh...

The -1 stacks with your other bonuses, still a 1 is a 1...

New Fumble Rules (adapted from the Paizo Critical Fumble Deck)... When you roll a 1 on an attack, make a second attack roll using the same modifiers as applicable to the first attack roll. If the second roll would also miss, then you fumble in some way. If the second roll is good enough for a hit, then nothing happens.


Eugen's fumble roll: 1d20=17

Quasit's will save: 1d20+6=20

The Quasit continues to bite and scratch: 1d20+7=10, 1d20+7=21, 1d20+2=19
1d3-1=0, 1d4-1=1

As the poison courses into his body, making him sluggish, the little quasit continues to bite and scratch as Kenzo holds her face under the water. Kenzo takes 2 point of damage and must make another two fortitude saves versus the poison.

Unfortunately for Kenzo, none of his allies help him. As they surround the quasit that he is holding down, they each miss, perhaps afraid to hurt the monk.

Scarab Sages

Male Human Expert 3/Cleric 3

The quasit's wounds are healing before the eyes of her attackers. And Kenzo's muscles are starting to freeze up.

A wet, angry quasit- Round 11
Kenzo: Initiative - 26 ...{-7 hp; -5 dex; AC 14}
Eugen: Initiative - 25
Jessa: Initiative - 19
Gyorgy: Initiative - 18
Mitnal: Initiative - 17
Erylium: Initiative - 7 ...{Entangled left: 1 rounds; -5 hp; 3 rounds under water}


Male Human Fighter 1

so i guess my bonus to hit is +6 -1?

i try harder to stab the quasit!

attacking quasit (1d20 +5=13)

ai, what terrible terrible rolls i've been having!


Female Human Wizard (Diviner) 2 / Cleric 1 of Sivhana
Wicht wrote:
The quasit's wounds are healing before the eyes of her attackers. And Kenzo's muscles are starting to freeze up.

"C'mon...we must slay her!" Jessa urges, "She won't stay tangled forever!"

For her part, Jessa uses the iron wand to charge her hand again and reaches into the pool.

Melee touch attack with shocking grasp... 1d20+1 = 11 to hit
Damage, if necessary... 1d6 = 5 hp


Male Human (Varisian) Bard 1 HP 10/10 | AC 15/11/14 | CMD 12 | saves F+2 R+2 W+3 | Vision: Perception +5, Sense Motive +1; Init +5 | Status: Normal

I step to one side and use my divine fire to heal Kenzo.
divine healing for Kenzo (1d6 1=4)

Worried about my friend I cry out; "Eugen, Mitnal; help Kenzo!"


Male Human Ki Mystic Monk 4

"It's gonna get loose!" Kenzo growls as he struggles to keep the demon down.

Will saves 1d20=4+5=9, 1d20=10+5=15

Grapple/Pin 1d20=8+2+5=15


Female Human Wizard (Diviner) 2 / Cleric 1 of Sivhana
Kenzo wrote:
"It's gonna get loose!" Kenzo growls as he struggles to keep the demon down.

Grappling Rules Discussion (Part II):

Spoiler:

Sorry to keep playing rules lawyer (which I hate), but something's still bothering me about this scenario. I would think that a pinned creature cannot attack its opponent. If it were grappling, I'm sure it could (in lieu of escaping the grapple). But, if it's pinned, that implies to me that it can't attack. It can still attempt to break the pin...but that just puts it back to grappling...and it would have to escape from that to be fully free.

While the Beta rules still remain silent on this subject, I decided to go back and reference the 3.5 SRD once more. Here's the part that I think is relevant to my interpretation:

SRD wrote:

Pin Your Opponent

You can hold your opponent immobile for 1 round by winning an opposed grapple check (made in place of an attack). Once you have an opponent pinned, you have a few options available to you....

If You’re Pinned by an Opponent
When an opponent has pinned you, you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round. While you’re pinned, you take a -4 penalty to your AC against opponents other than the one pinning you. At your opponent’s option, you may also be unable to speak. On your turn, you can try to escape the pin by making an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you want, but this requires a standard action. If you win, you escape the pin, but you’re still grappling.

The bolded and italicized text is mine, because at first I glossed over it, because I thought it meant you can choose to escape the pin or make an attack. But then I started wondering about that...so I went to a different source for rules clarification. The FAQ for D&D 3.5 and the various "Rules of the Game" articles in Wizards' 3.5 Archives. Here's a link to the relevant article by Skip Williams. And below is an excerpt that I think is most relevant to the situation:

Skip Williams wrote:
As you might expect, you can't move out of the space you share with a foe that has pinned you. You cannot take any other actions except to make an opposed grapple check to escape the pin in place of an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you want, but this requires a standard action. If you win the opposed check, you escape the pin, but you're still grappling. If your base attack bonus allows you to make multiple attacks, you can attempt to escape the pin multiple times (at successively lower attack bonuses). If you escape the pin, you're still grappling with your foe, but if you still have attacks available, you can keep right on grappling....

So, given all that, I believe Kenzo should have successfully pinned the quasit such that it can't claw and scratch at him anymore. According to Skip's article, the only physical action available to it would be to try an opposed grapple check to break the pin. Otherwise, it can try casting a spell (as long as it has no somatic component to it)...or it could invoke a spell-like ability as long as it succeeds at a Concentration check.

After going through this analysis, I'm wondering why the Beta rules remain silent on the issue? Does the combat maneuver mechanics trump this interpretation in the interests of simplifying things? Or does a pin still prevent attack actions?

EDIT: I did finally find something that supports the same interpretation in the Beta rules:

Beta Rules wrote:
Pinned: A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is flat-footed. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned creature that attempts to cast a spell must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell’s level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled and their effects do not stack.

What I take from Jason's wording is that he completely omits any description of a pinned creature being able to use its attacks. After saying a pinned creature is limited in its actions, he outlines what it can do...i.e., break the pin, cast a spell (without a somatic component), or take other verbal and mental actions. But that seems to be it.

Hope that helps. I need to bone up on this for my upcoming table-top Pathfinder game as well. So this is time well-spent for me regardless.


Male Human Ki Mystic Monk 4

I agree, Spicer, and since we're playtesting and trying to refine the rules, I'll play Rules Lawyer with you.

Spoiler:
There's a legal maxim regarding interpreting such things - Expressio unius est exclusio alterius. My Black's Law Dictionary translates it as "the express mention of one thing excludes all others." Basically, it all hinges (as does so many things legal) on a very literal interpretation of the language. I was looking at the same thing you were, the 'pinned' definition on p. 401 of the Beta Rules.

Beta Rules wrote:
A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component.

[ooc]Because the above does not include words to the effect of 'such as' or 'including,' it should be interpreted as a complete list. It's sort of the difference between: They are limited in actions. They can do X. They can do Y. Not: They are limited in actions, such as X or Y.

Does that make any sense?


Male Human Ki Mystic Monk 4

I added another thread to the feedback forums, and cut & paste some of our thoughts.

Can someone pinned still attack?


Ok, ok, I give... ;) Pinned creatures cannot attack. But I'm not going to retcon the fight. We'll just accept from this point on that a person pinned needs to try and escape. And, because I'm nice (and don't want to overly penalize you guys for a possible error on my part) I won't count Kenzo's last failed save against him. :)


Kenzo just barely manages to keep the quasit down (thanks to a -1 CMB). Meanwhile, though it's a clumsy lunge, Eugen finally manages to pierce the quasit's rough hide with his broken sword (thanks to a +2 from flanking and her dexterity loss from being grappled).

Eugen's Damage: 1d3+3=6

She cries out, from her pinned position under the water and bubbles and black blood come together to the surface.

Jessa once more shocks the water, giving everyone standing in it a thrill but not harming the quasit in any way.

Gyorgy heals Kenzo of some of his damage, but the poison is still affecting his muscles.

Mitnal?


Male Human of the Shoanti Shriikirri-Quah Tribe Barbarian 3

Mitnal attempts a swing with his warhammer but is uncomfortable putting his weight behind it given the number of people around the whatzit. 1d20+4=20, 1d8+2=4


Mitnal's attack, though a solid blow, does not hurt the little demon at all.

Escape Artist check: 1d20+5=16-2 =14

However, it is almost enough to make Kenzo lose his grip.

Her escape artist is vs. whatever the most recent grapple was.


A wet, angry quasit- Round 12
Kenzo: Initiative - 26 ...{-3 hp; -5 dex; AC 14}
Eugen: Initiative - 25
Jessa: Initiative - 19
Gyorgy: Initiative - 18
Mitnal: Initiative - 17
Erylium: Initiative - 7 ...{ -9 hp; 4 rounds under water}


Male Human Fighter 1

I attack again!

attacking (1d20 +5 +2=16)

damage (1d3 +3=5)


Male Human Ki Mystic Monk 4

Kenzo, calmer now that the little demon has suddenly stopped scratching at him, continues to keep the monster pinned.

Grapple/pin 1d20=11+2+5=18

DM Wicht wrote:
Ok, ok, I give... ;) Pinned creatures cannot attack. But I'm not going to retcon the fight. We'll just accept from this point on that a person pinned needs to try and escape. And, because I'm nice (and don't want to overly penalize you guys for a possible error on my part) I won't count Kenzo's last failed save against him. :)

That works for me, and to be clear, I wouldn't normally push the issue if we weren't playtesting. It's also been awhile, so let me say thanks for running the game. It's been good fun, and a great outlet. Now if I could only figure out an angle to get in your Chronicles game ; )

And congrats to Neil for making it to the round of 32. Make us proud, man.


Male Human (Varisian) Bard 1 HP 10/10 | AC 15/11/14 | CMD 12 | saves F+2 R+2 W+3 | Vision: Perception +5, Sense Motive +1; Init +5 | Status: Normal

"Dagnabit!" I exclaim.

Then I dart forward, grab Mitnal's dagger and hold it toward him.

"Stab it with this!"

Iif that's not possible, i'll cast daze yet again.


Female Human Wizard (Diviner) 2 / Cleric 1 of Sivhana

Sensing it's getting too crowded around the quasit, Jessa backs away to give Eugen, Mitnal, and Kenzo room. As she passes Mitnal, she pats his arm for encouragement and whispers an arcane spell to aid his efforts.

Using diviner's fortune to give Mitnal a +2 bonus on his next attack roll, saving throw, or skill check. The bonus lasts 3 rounds or until he uses it.


Now that the boards are not as wonky, let me offer my personal congragulations to both Neil and Tarren. Good job both of you. Its kind of cool to have two superstars (three if I include the Monk series) in several of my PbPs. And if your posting drops a bit for a while, I understand completely. :)

Now, does someone want to roll an attack for Mitnal? ;)


Kenzo continues to hold the creature down, Eugen again successfully stabs it, and Jessa and Gyorgy, between them, try to focus Mitnal on attacking with the dagger they spent copious amounts of money on, just for this occassion.


Female Human Wizard (Diviner) 2 / Cleric 1 of Sivhana
DM Wicht wrote:
Now that the boards are not as wonky, let me offer my personal congragulations to both Neil and Tarren. Good job both of you. Its kind of cool to have two superstars (three if I include the Monk series) in several of my PbPs. And if your posting drops a bit for a while, I understand completely. :)

Thanks. It was almost a triumvirate with you making the Top 62. It would've been tripley awesome if all three of us could have made it.

DM Wicht wrote:
Now, does someone want to roll an attack for Mitnal? ;)

I saw Tarren's started posting to his games again, so he should be along soon, I think. Come the Tuesday after next, though, our posting will falter again if we make Top 16. So just be patient with us.


Male Human of the Shoanti Shriikirri-Quah Tribe Barbarian 3
Jeslara 'Jessa' Eventide wrote:


Come the Tuesday after next, though, our posting will falter again as we make Top 16. So just be patient with us.

Fixed it for you.

Mitnal swings his hammer but finds it very crowded.

1d20+4=10, 1d8+2=10


Despite Gyorgy and Jessa encouraging Mitnal to use his dagger, he persist in trying to bash in the quasit's head, without effect. Fortunately, the quasit still does not manage to wiggle free.

1d20+3=10

A wet, angry quasit- Round 13
Kenzo: Initiative - 26 ...{-3 hp; -5 dex; AC 14}
Eugen: Initiative - 25
Jessa: Initiative - 19
Gyorgy: Initiative - 18
Mitnal: Initiative - 17
Erylium: Initiative - 7 ...{ -12 hp; 5 rounds under water}


Female Human Wizard (Diviner) 2 / Cleric 1 of Sivhana

Running out of things she can do to help, Jessa steps around the throng of men and into the pool so she can strike from the other side. Her eyes meet Kenzo's.

"Whatever you do...don't let go!" she tells him. Her hands then weave before and she launches an icy ray into the water with the words, "Heladoviga!"

Casting ray of frost as a ranged touch attack firing into melee... 1d20-1 = 8 to hit
Meh...I won't even bother to roll damage for that.

Unfortunately, the refraction from the water causes her to misjudge the quasit's position.

"Sorry!" she frets at the worried expressions the others give her when the icy ray comes too close to their hands instead.


Male Human Fighter 1

focusing my mental energies to ignore all distractions, I keep stabbing:

attack (1d20 +7=26)
damage (1d3 +3=6)

finally I am beginning to reach stab nirvana.


Female Human Wizard (Diviner) 2 / Cleric 1 of Sivhana
Eugen Enescu wrote:
finally I am beginning to reach stab nirvana.

Well done. That's a threat by the way. You rolled a 19 with a dagg--er, I mean a broken sword. Normally, it can do x2 damage if you can confirm the critical. I'm not sure how Wicht wants to treat a broken sword blade though...


Male Human of the Shoanti Shriikirri-Quah Tribe Barbarian 3
DM Wicht wrote:

Despite Gyorgy and Jessa encouraging Mitnal to use his dagger, he persist in trying to bash in the quasit's head, without effect. Fortunately, the quasit still does not manage to wiggle free.

I have a dagger?


Jeslara 'Jessa' Eventide wrote:
Eugen Enescu wrote:
finally I am beginning to reach stab nirvana.
Well done. That's a threat by the way. You rolled a 19 with a dagg--er, I mean a broken sword. Normally, it can do x2 damage if you can confirm the critical. I'm not sure how Wicht wants to treat a broken sword blade though...

We'll allow the normal 19-20/x2.


Mitnal wrote:
DM Wicht wrote:

Despite Gyorgy and Jessa encouraging Mitnal to use his dagger, he persist in trying to bash in the quasit's head, without effect. Fortunately, the quasit still does not manage to wiggle free.

I have a dagger?

A cold iron dagger purchased just for this occassion. They made sure you had it available last round but you must have missed that.


Male Human of the Shoanti Shriikirri-Quah Tribe Barbarian 3
DM Wicht wrote:
Mitnal wrote:
DM Wicht wrote:

Despite Gyorgy and Jessa encouraging Mitnal to use his dagger, he persist in trying to bash in the quasit's head, without effect. Fortunately, the quasit still does not manage to wiggle free.

I have a dagger?
A cold iron dagger purchased just for this occassion. They made sure you had it available last round but you must have missed that.

Mitnal flushes with embarrassment. 'Stupid. I'm so stupid. Stupid!' he thinks to himself as he grows redfaced.

'It's the whatzit's fault. It's HER fault,' he thinks focussing his anger on her.


Male Human Fighter 1

by x2 you mean i have to roll again right?
x2? (1d20=13)


Eugen Enescu wrote:

by x2 you mean i have to roll again right?

x2? (1d20=13)

Rules explanation:

Spoiler:
The 19-20 means that whenever you roll a 19-20 on the d20 you need to reroll a second time, modified like the first roll. If the second roll hits then the x2 means that you roll the damage die twice (in this case a d3) and double your strength bonus.

Thus a rapier has a damage and critical range of {1d6 18-20/x2} meaning that an 18, 29 or 20 is a threatened critical and calls for a reroll but when you do score a critical you roll 2d6.

A Great-ax on the other hand is (1d12 20/x3) meaning that you only threaten a critical on a natural 20 but when you score a critical you roll 3d12 for damage and get to triple your strength bonus as well.

You're unmodified roll is good enough after you add your to hit bonus to score a critical so you get to roll an extra d3.


Male Human Fighter 1

second hit die (1d3=1)

so that's also plus 3 right, for a total of 10 damage?


Kenzo, Gyorgy and Mitnal... feel free to post in any order, I doubt it makes much difference and if it does I'll muddle through figuring it out.


Male Human of the Shoanti Shriikirri-Quah Tribe Barbarian 3

Mitnal, thoroughly enraged at foolishly being unable to help his friends in their struggle, stabs at the whatzit.

1d20+6=12, 1d4+4=5 I'm not including the bonus +2 from Jessa.

2 out of 10 rage points spent.


I'm starting to feel sorry for you guys. :D Even raging with the +2 bonus and +2 from flanking, Mitnal misses the small little quasit.

Kenzo and Gyorgy still to go.


Male Human (Varisian) Bard 1 HP 10/10 | AC 15/11/14 | CMD 12 | saves F+2 R+2 W+3 | Vision: Perception +5, Sense Motive +1; Init +5 | Status: Normal

Another daze is the best I can do.

I stamp my feet in frustration.


Will save: 1d20+6=20

In the interest of speeding along an already length encounter, I've rolled for Kenzo.
Kenzo's Grapple: 1d20+7=15

Kenzo struggles to hold the squirming monster under the water even as the party brutally tries to kill it. Black ichor stains the water around the fiend as Eugen stabs it and perhaps it is this extra bit of slimyness that allows the demon to finally wriggle lose and pop its head above water.

Escape Artist: 1d20+3=20

"Foul miscreants!" it shrieks through splutters and gasps for air, "Lamashtu curse you all!"


A wet, angry bleeding quasit- Round 14
Kenzo: Initiative - 26 ...{-3 hp; -5 dex; AC 14}
Eugen: Initiative - 25
Jessa: Initiative - 19
Gyorgy: Initiative - 18
Mitnal: Initiative - 17
Erylium: Initiative - 7 ...{ -20 hp; no longer under water but still flanked}


Male Human Fighter 1

surprised by the sudden change, I flub my attack:

attacking (1d20 +7=11)


Female Human Wizard (Diviner) 2 / Cleric 1 of Sivhana
DM Wicht wrote:

Kenzo struggles to hold the squirming monster under the water even as the party brutally tries to kill it. Black ichor stains the water around the fiend as Eugen stabs it and perhaps it is this extra bit of slimyness that allows the demon to finally wriggle lose and pop its head above water.

"Foul miscreants!" it shrieks through splutters and gasps for air, "Lamashtu curse you all!"

Question: I'm assuming the tanglefoot bag has worn off by now? And, although the quasit has succeeded in breaking free of the pin, she's still grappling with Kenzo, correct? Regardless, I think Jessa's next action will remain the same...

"No!" Jessa cries, "Don't let her get away!"

She tucks the iron wand in the belt around her slim waist and then casts another spell. "Vraieja-grevas!" she announces, reaching for the party's last tanglefoot bag.

Jessa is going to use her last true strike and ready the last tanglefoot bag in case it manages to break free of Kenzo's grapple.

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