I think I'm going to rule that there's not enough water to make a difference with either shocking grasp or ray of frost. Without looking it up, I do know that lightning bolts underwater become lightning balls. but she's not underwater, she's in a shallow pool.
Addendum: As to Eugen and Mitnal being in the dark. Mitnal, I know, put his light in his pouch. As Eugen didn't say what he was doing with his, I assumed he was holding it. Characters affected by casue fear drop what they are holding when they flee.
Also: Re: Kenzo's good throw. My first group didn't have a problem with this quasit (they used different tactics). And I wondered why so many griped on the boards about her being a nuisance, but she does have a very good AC (tiny+dex+natural armor).
Also: Re: Kenzo's good throw. My first group didn't have a problem with this quasit (they used different tactics). And I wondered why so many griped on the boards about her being a nuisance, but she does have a very good AC (tiny+dex+natural armor).
I wasn't actually surprised, I was just roleplaying Kenzo missing with a good roll. After we're done with her, I'd like to hear how your other group handled her.
Female Human Wizard (Diviner) 2 / Cleric 1 of Sivhana
DM Wicht wrote:
I think I'm going to rule that there's not enough water to make a difference with either shocking grasp or ray of frost. Without looking it up, I do know that lightning bolts underwater become lightning balls. But she's not underwater, she's in a shallow pool.
That's the best ruling I could hope for...as I was more worried Jessa might shock herself trying to use shocking grasp and I wasn't sure if ray of frost would be impeded by the water.
Once Kenzo arrives next to her, Jessa reaches for the remaining tanglefoot bag strapped to the monk. "Let me have that," she tells him, "In case we need another throw, my magic seems particularly strong in targeting her."
She shows him where she believes the quasit landed. "There. I think you can just make out something beneath the water. Grab her if you can. I've got this wand to fry her with lightning if we must. But use your dagger while she's bound."
"Gyorgy?" she calls out, "You stand ready to blast her if she takes to the air again!"
Jessa spares one worried glance at the door. 'I just hope Eugen and Mitnal are okay...' she thinks. Almost simultaneously, Blackwing leaves her shoulder to fly after them.
I'm sending Blackwing to keep an eye on our comrades. If anyone has one of those light stones remaining in our room, the raven will try and snatch one up to go after them. He's got low-light vision as well, but I'm hoping some kind of light source should help him see further than normal as well.
A claw, suddenly visible, rakes across Kenzo's hand as he reaches down. It is a shallow scratch but it burns and Kenzo is wracked with pain as old wounds, thought to be healed, suddenly burst open.
Kenzo takes a total of 10 points of damage and must make a fortitude save versus poison.
The quasit is visible. Upclose Kenzo, if is is noticing such details, can see she is wearing a tiny, silk dress (black) and a tiara. She is also armed with a small dagger. The water seems to be affecting the tangle-foot bag suggesting the quasit might be free sooner rather than later.
Eugen and Mitnal, blundering about in terror in the dark, see an ominous red glow coming towards them down the hall they just fled and presumably, scared of it, they try to flee even further away.
Don't forget I cast Mage Armour on Kenzo. That +4 armour bonus to AC (I don't know where his AC comes from, but +4 armour, +3 dex and +1 ring of protection = AC 18)
Don't forget I cast Mage Armour on Kenzo. That +4 armour bonus to AC (I don't know where his AC comes from, but +4 armour, +3 dex and +1 ring of protection = AC 18)
Oops. **blushes**. I did forget the mage armor. The quasit misses (Kenzo - ignore the damage).
Female Human Wizard (Diviner) 2 / Cleric 1 of Sivhana
"Grab it and pin it, Kenzo!" Jessa suggests, "Drown it if you can. And I'll see if I can't give it something worse to worry about..."
Jessa will take her action after Kenzo, so hopefully he can start grappling with it and make it easier for everyone else to hit...including Jessa. Gyorgy's gonna have to get in the act, too...or we won't harm her very much before she escapes again. We sure could use one of those big strong guys to assist with the grappling, too...oh, wait...they're fleeing like hysterical school girls while Jessa handles the problem! ;-D
The young mage takes a step back and begins gesturing with the iron wand, weaving it around and over her hand.
"Chocante agarrar!" she intones the ancient Thassilonian words of power.
Crackling electricity sparks from the wand's tip to her fingers...and then seems to wreathe her entire hand and forearm. Even Jessa is taken aback by the raw power coursing through her arm and she can feel her hair starting to rise from the charge building up in her.
Then she steps forward and thrusts her hand into the pool, searching for the quasit's body.
Touch attack with shocking grasp...1d20+1 = 17 to hit Electrical damage... 1d6 = 2 hp Is that the right damage? I assume it's a CL 1 wand of shocking grasp?
Touch spells always confuse me. If I'm reading it correctly, Jessa can cast the spell and touch a creature in the same round. She can even move in between the casting and the touching if she wishes. So, I just want to make sure there's enough room between her and the quasit that she doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. But if there isn't, she'll cast it anyway and hope her protection from evil holds the quasit at bay until she can complete the spell.
Don't forget I cast Mage Armour on Kenzo. That +4 armour bonus to AC (I don't know where his AC comes from, but +4 armour, +3 dex and +1 ring of protection = AC 18)
Woohoo! Thank you, Gyorgy!
Taken aback by the little creatures seeming spring to life, Kenzo pauses for a moment before driving the dagger home.
Touch spells always confuse me. If I'm reading it correctly, Jessa can cast the spell and touch a creature in the same round. She can even move in between the casting and the touching if she wishes. So, I just want to make sure there's enough room between her and the quasit that she doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. But if there isn't, she'll cast it anyway and hope her protection from evil holds the quasit at bay until she can complete the spell.
From the SRD: Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity.
Jessa amanages to shock the mostly helpless demoness and Gyorgy strikes it unerringly with a magic missile. Kenzo however finds that the creature can still roll about in the water enough to avoid his clumsy attack.
The quasit is too small to strike at either Kenzo or Jessa as they move back after their own attacks. She snarls, "You shall die slowly!" and then turns invisible. One might almost get the feeling she was tensing herself up to attack as soon as they are close enough again.
Both Eugen and Mitnal come to their sense, some distance from the battle. Within seconds, light floods the room, a light-stone carried in the beak of Jessa's familiar.
Both Eugen and Mitnal come to their sense, some distance from the battle. Within seconds, light floods the room, a light-stone carried in the beak of Jessa's familiar.
Blackwing expresses relief in finally catching up to the two fleeing warriors by flapping his wings and bobbing his head. He lands on Mitnal's shoulder and then drops the light-stone into the barbarian's outstretched hand.
Female Human Wizard (Diviner) 2 / Cleric 1 of Sivhana
Jessa waits until Kenzo makes his next move. After he finishes, she summons another bit of magic to impart a magical insight into his next attack.
Imparting diviner's fortune to Kenzo. He gets a +2 bonus on his next attack, saving throw, or skill check.
"Don't try to hit her with the dagger yet!" she urges, "We've got to pin her down first. Just grab her and hold her under the water. Give me the dagger and I'll try cutting her while you drown her! It's the only way we can be sure to keep her from escaping!"
Essentially, I'm suggesting that Kenzo grapple the quasit. It's so much smaller than us, we should have an advantage. Also, I believe a quasit's got to breathe, so we may as well drown her while she's in the pool. If one of us can hold her down, we can also slash at her with the dagger or use the wand to speed her demise.
Jessa waits until Kenzo makes his next move. After he finishes, she summons another bit of magic to impart a magical insight into his next attack.
Imparting diviner's fortune to Kenzo. He gets a +2 bonus on his next attack, saving throw, or skill check.
"Don't try to hit her with the dagger yet!" she urges, "We've got to pin her down first. Just grab her and hold her under the water. Give me the dagger and I'll try cutting her while you drown her! It's the only way we can be sure to keep her from escaping!"
Essentially, I'm suggesting that Kenzo grapple the quasit. It's so much smaller than us, we should have an advantage. Also, I believe a quasit's got to breathe, so we may as well drown her while she's in the pool. If one of us can hold her down, we can also slash at her with the dagger or use the wand to speed her demise.
I was thinking the same thing.
Kenzo scowls, hands his dagger to Jessa, and tries to grab hold of the squirming little demon with both hands.
Just skimming through the beta rules, I don't know what other modifiers, other than CMB, come in to play here due to the size difference and the target already being tangled. Also, Jessa's +2 is for Kenzo's next attack, correct? Oh, and are you throwing us a bone here, Wicht, I noticed that tanglefoot bags have no effect in water.
Female Human Wizard (Diviner) 2 / Cleric 1 of Sivhana
Kenzo wrote:
Just skimming through the beta rules, I don't know what other modifiers, other than CMB, come in to play here due to the size difference and the target already being tangled. Also, Jessa's +2 is for Kenzo's next attack, correct?
CMB Rules Discussion:
Spoiler:
Your DC to beat should be 15 + the quasit's CMB. With a below average Str and her Tiny size modifier, there's probably a net negative CMB for her. But I don't know the calculations. They're probably tougher than the traditional grapple rules from D&D 3.5, though. That's all for Wicht to figure out anyway. All you have to worry about is rolling a d20, adding your CMB and then let him compare it to the DC for the quasit.
At a glance, it looks like you rolled high enough for success anyway. It's a natural 20! But you'll probably provoke an attack of opportunity as well, since you don't have the Improved Grapple feat. One thing that seems different from PRPG Beta grappling and D&D 3.5 grappling is that if an AoO succeeded under the normal rules and dealt damage to the potential grappler, the grappling attempt would automatically fail. But PRPG Beta rules don't state that. To speed things up, they just have you add the damage from any successful AoO to the DC you have to beat.
And lastly, because of the initiative order, I don't think Jessa's diviner's fortune bonus would apply yet. She has to touch you on her turn to impart it. And you're at the top of the order. You could delay your action, though, assuming Jessa could use a free action to tell you her intent. That way, you'd fall in the initiative order alongside her. She'd impart the bonus. And then you'd still get to act before the quasit, since she goes last.
Regardless...on with the show...it's cool to see these new mechanics in use...
Kenzo wrote:
Oh, and are you throwing us a bone here, Wicht, I noticed that tanglefoot bags have no effect in water.
I think that means attempting to throw and activate one underwater. If a creature falls into water after already having been snared by one, I don't think that means they automatically stop working. I like Wicht's interpretation that the water probably shortens the duration a little more. But it shouldn't be an automatic solvent.
That's a good point with the tanglefoot bag, and I'm actually good with using Jessa's bonus in the next round for maintaining the grabble/pin. The beta rules do say that a natural 20 always results in a successful combat maneuver, so I'm already good this round.
Kenzo handily shoves the quasit down, easily (thanks to a natural 20) holding the creature still. (The quasit can still attack. And next round you will have to make a CMB/grapple check to pin the creature under the water if you want to try and drown her.)
Jessa grabs the knife and moves into position.
Eugen and Mitnal, moving more easily now that they can see and aren't running into walls, head back towards the room. They will arrive next round.
Female Human Wizard (Diviner) 2 / Cleric 1 of Sivhana
DM Wicht wrote:
Kenzo needs to make a fortitude save (DC 12) or become nauseated. Kenzo then needs to make a second fortitude save DC 14 against poison.
Reminder: Jessa's +2 diviner's fortune bonus would presumably get used up on the first saving throw. Can't help you with the second one, though. :-(
Whatever you do, maintain that hold! Even if you're sick and poisoned. The PRPG Beta rules say you have to keep making checks every round. And if you can pin her, I believe it'll go a long way in winning the fight. Since she didn't break the grapple, you should get a +5 circumstance bonus on the follow-up check.
DM Wicht wrote:
As the arcane force energy slams into her, the quasit struggles mightily. From under the water she spits a ball of phlegm straight up at Kenzo.
"Oh my!" Jessa recoils with alarm as she sees the vile circumstances of getting too close to the creature, "Hold on to her, Kenzo!"
DM Wicht wrote:
Meanwhile she continues to scratch at Kenzo, and this time she does draw some blood.
Realizing Kenzo may soon lose his hold on the quasit, Jessa determines her magic might work better to subdue it. She tucks the cold iron dagger into her belt and flourishes once more with the wand to wreathe her hand with an electric charge.
"Chocante agarrar!" she chants again. Then, Jessa reaches past Kenzo to try and find one of the quasit's arms or legs again.
Melee touch attack with shocking grasp... 1d20+1 = 12 to hit Uh-oh. Kinda low...but I'm hopeful we've reduced her AC with all of our efforts. The tanglefoot bag should lower her Dex by 4...and the grappled condition does the same. So that's a total -8 Dex, plus this is a melee touch attack, so it should ignore natural armor. Let's keep our fingers crossed... Damage, if necessary... 1d6 = 4 hp
The demonic goober hits Kenzo in the face and he feels a faint tingle of nausea, but forces it down. The scratch, though, is too much, and he feels the poison course through his body. However, the desperate monk holds on with all of his strength, trying to keep the little monster from wriggling free.
Male Human of the Shoanti Shriikirri-Quah Tribe Barbarian 3
Mitnal enters the room and attempts to put himself in harm's way.
Don't know the layout but if there is a place that Mitnal can move so he can attack with a melee attack next round, that's where he'll go. He's at least hoping to serve as a damage sponge.
A rough layout/description of the room (from memory).
This room is very large, with a high cieling. The entrance to the room is a set of double doors. There is a door on the wall to the far left of the entrance. In the middle of the room is a pool of water surrounded by stone skulls. The Quasit is in the water, being held down by Kenzo.
On the other side of the room from the entrance, across the pool, there is a rise in the floor, reachable by steps on either side. There is a second pool atop this rise, triangular. This second pool is glowing with a reddish glow.
As Kenzo pushes the Quasit underneath the water, he can feel the tingle of electricity from Jessa's attack, but the quasit takes the brunt of the damage.
Mitnal moves into the room, followed by Eugen. For some reason, both of them have red faces. Likely from all the running they have been doing.
The quasit does not wish to go quietly back to hell. She bites and scratches at Kenzo as he holds her down.
Again, her sharp little claws leave gouges on Kenzo and even more of the poison courses into his body Two more Fortitude saves for Kenzo and another 2 points of damage.
EDIT: I think that Kenzo's AC is actually lower at the moment because he is grappling but the 19 represents what he should have with the mage armor (the +4 does not stack with the +1 from the ring of protection). I'll have to look up the grappling rules later to see what it lowers his AC to.
Female Human Wizard (Diviner) 2 / Cleric 1 of Sivhana
DM Wicht wrote:
The quasit does not wish to go quietly back to hell. She bites and scratches at Kenzo as he holds her down....Again, her sharp little claws leave gouges on Kenzo and even more of the poison courses into his body.
"Oh, Kenzo! Hold on!" Jessa looks even more concerned at the blood and scratches along the monk's arms, "Pin her to the bottom of the pool!"
Jessa weaves the magic from the wand once more. 'C'mon,' she thinks, 'How much does it take to kill a demon?'
She thrusts her arm once more into the water, touching just above Kenzo's hands.
As the electric charge releases, Jessa looks back over her shoulder. "Gyorgy! Help us..." she calls. And then, seeing Mitnal and Eugen re-enter the room, she looks even more hopeful, "Hurry! We've almost got her! If we can just hold her down!"
Kenzo struggles to keep his hold, but his whole body is wracked with a burning sensation as the poison runs through his system. "Give someone the dagger! Kill it!" he yells, as he tries to pin the creatures arms to keep it from attacking him again.
Female Human Wizard (Diviner) 2 / Cleric 1 of Sivhana
Kenzo wrote:
Almost through sheer force of will, however, he continues to hold his grip, despite the little demons struggles to free itself.
I know you have to roll a combat maneuver every round to maintain a grapple with your opponent...but somewhere in these past couple of rounds Kenzo should have the opportunity to take an action to improve his situation. For instance, he can attempt a pin maneuver as part of his grapple. And, once pinned, the quasit won't be able to slash at him as effectively. She can still try to break the pin, but she'll be at quite a disadvantage. And the rest of us can probably latch on and help pin her as well.
At least, I think that's how this still works. Personally, I'm not completely sold on the CMB rules in Beta. It'll be interesting to see where Jason takes them by the final edition.
Almost through sheer force of will, however, he continues to hold his grip, despite the little demons struggles to free itself.
I know you have to roll a combat maneuver every round to maintain a grapple with your opponent...but somewhere in these past couple of rounds Kenzo should have the opportunity to take an action to improve his situation. For instance, he can attempt a pin maneuver as part of his grapple. And, once pinned, the quasit won't be able to slash at him. She can still try to break the pin, but she'll be at quite a disadvantage. And the rest of us can probably latch on and help pin her as well.
At least, I think that's how this still works. Personally, I'm not completely sold on the CMB rules in Beta. It'll be interesting to see where Jason takes them by the final edition.
Crap, reading back through my posts, it's not clear that I was trying to pin her after the first round. That is what I'm trying to do, by the way, and although the rules don't specifically say that a pinned opponent can't physically attack, I do think you are right. I'm editing the above post to reflect that. Plus, it looks like the pinned target has an AC of flat-footed -4.
For the record, I assumed Kenzo was trying to pin the creature underwater in an attempt to drown it (thus the 2 rounds spent underwater.). But pinning, so far as I can tell, does not mean it can't attack. (I am imagine it as trying to hold a cat underwater. You'll win everytime but your hands are going to be sore. Not that I've ever drowned a cat mind you.) As the grappled condition imposes a -2 to attack rolls, I've been going with that, stacking it with the penalty for being bound with goo.
From the Beta Rules: "A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is flat-footed. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A"pinned creature that attempts to cast a spell must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell’s level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled and their effects do not stack."
Actually, another way to look at it is that being pinned is almost exactly like being hit with a tanglefoot bag.
A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component.
But if a pinned creature can't even cast a spell with a somatic component, which could really be just the slightest of gestures, can it really physically attack? Doesn't the above sentence essentially say verbal and mental actions, but not physical?
Female Human Wizard (Diviner) 2 / Cleric 1 of Sivhana
I checked both the Beta and the SRD version of grapple, and I think Wicht's right. The old way that grapple worked allowed opponents to still attack even if they were pinned. The problems with somatic spell gestures is that they're usually very specific and even the slightest grappling makes it tough to complete them correctly. But using one's natural claws or a small weapon like a dagger aren't anywhere near as complicated. That doesn't mean such attacks don't suffer a penalty. It just means they're not completely prevented.
A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component.
But if a pinned creature can't even cast a spell with a somatic component, which could really be just the slightest of gestures, can it really physically attack? Doesn't the above sentence essentially say verbal and mental actions, but not physical?
I think the theory is that casting a spell requires complex movements that must be done exactly right. Twisting, clawing and biting can be a rather simple, primitive movements.
Edit: Ninjad by 8 seconds :)
Edit 2: Just for the sake of really trying out the rules, I think you should go wrestle a house-cat Bill, Just try pinning a cat to give it a bath. :D ;) (Mine are declawed on the front but those back feet and teeth can still be nasty enough to slay your 1st level commoner.)
Female Human Wizard (Diviner) 2 / Cleric 1 of Sivhana
DM Wicht wrote:
Actually, another way to look at it is that being pinned is almost exactly like being hit with a tanglefoot bag.
We are kind of in uncharted territory though. What's the effect of both a tanglefoot bag and a grapple-with-pin on someone? Do any of these effects stack? The Dex penalties and flat-footed AC certainly seem to...but what about attacks? At some point, shouldn't enough grapplers be able to fully restrain someone? And a tanglefoot bag in this situation is basically another grappler. I've been considering having Jessa grapple as well (despite her really low CMB), but from my reading of the Beta rules, I don't see anything about multiple grapplers being afforded any additional advantage. And that seems really odd. We've got a tanglefoot bag, a grappling monk, and potentially a third grappler trying to aid him...and we're facing a Tiny adversary vs. two Medium sized opponents...and we're still having an extremely hard time of it. This is the part of the new CMB mechanic that I don't like as much. Did you and Tarren come across anything like this in the Six Monks Bar playtest?
Did you and Tarren come across anything like this in the Six Monks Bar playtest?[/ooc]
No, but I think the way I'm going to do it is that every additional grappler (and like hindrance, i.e. webs, goo) stacks with the first, up to a limit of 6 grapplers+ 2 substances. So Kenzo is currently stacking with the tangle-foot bag. If Jessa also grappled, she would get the +5 to the CMB for the quasit already being grappled and pinned, and if successful, she would further lower the AC and attack bonus. With 6 grapplers thats a potential -12 to the attack bonus + the penalties from substances, if applicable. Plus the additional grapplers will all add their CMBs to any potential escape artist roll.
Edit 2: Just for the sake of really trying out the rules, I think you should go wrestle a house-cat Bill, Just try pinning a cat to give it a bath. :D ;) (Mine are declawed on the front but those back feet and teeth can still be nasty enough to slay your 1st level commoner.)
How about a three year old? Is that close enough? Actually, she likes her baths, so it's not even close. For the sake of playtesting, I'm just making sure we have a consensus on interpretation, but figure we can post to the playtest threads to make sure this gets picked up for the final version.
Female Human Wizard (Diviner) 2 / Cleric 1 of Sivhana
DM Wicht wrote:
Does that sound fair?
That's probably a little too fair. It favors the grapplers too much. Under the old SRD grappling rules, only 4 combatants could grapple someone in a round. I'd recommend allowing only 1 substance to enhance that, because eventually the substance really ought to hinder the grapplers too.
I think the +5 CMB bonus to additional grapplers when a target is already being grappled seems reasonable. And stacking the lowering of AC and attack bonus on an opponent being restrained by multiple grapplers sounds right, too. Adding every grappler's CMB to a potential Escape Artist roll sounds a bit harsh at first, but that's probably a more elegant way than having the victim have to break each grapple using individual CMBs. Your suggested approach certainly speeds things up.
From the 3.5 SRD:
Spoiler:
Multiple Grapplers
Several combatants can be in a single grapple. Up to four combatants can grapple a single opponent in a given round. Creatures that are one or more size categories smaller than you count for half, creatures that are one size category larger than you count double, and creatures two or more size categories larger count quadruple.
When you are grappling with multiple opponents, you choose one opponent to make an opposed check against. The exception is an attempt to escape from the grapple; to successfully escape, your grapple check must beat the check results of each opponent.
