I've seen WotC designers post here before, but it isn't exactly common.
I don't think they check these boards with any regularity, and frankly for the most part I don't think they care what we think.
On the paizo fanboi thing... I've been accused of being a paizo fanboi on the Gleemax forums. I made a heartfelt and lengthy response to the accusations the poster made... among them that we were all racist and bigoted... refuting his claims, and even RELATING IT TO THE TOPIC IN QUESTION. My posts were deleted by a Wiz-O for being off-topic.
Among my frustrations:
posts with any gay related content get mysteriously moved to the "Mature Topics" forum.
Posts are frequently deleted for being off-topic BEFORE BEING READ IN THEIR ENTIRETY
Anyone who isn't a whole-hearted supporter of anything Wizards does is a grognard
Anyone who expects customer service or responsiveness on the part of the Wizards team is immediately being unrealistic
The fact that some posters believe companies other than Wizards make good products seems to be immediate cause for a flame war.
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Please understand, I have great respect for much of Wizards' business. I love magic the gathering, and I love D&D, and frankly I will probably try to purchase at least the core 4e books to give the system a chance. But I do expect customer service of a certain level, and I do expect a better PR job than they've given. I feel WotC has failed to engage its devoted fans in favor of an attempt to gain a new audience. I'm offended by that, but Wizards does not even make a reasonable attempt to refute the claim, and posts making it seem to disappear as often as not. I thus cannot claim that those boards foster discourse, instead they stifle it.
These boards also sometimes stifle criticism, but they generally do it in a kinder way. And they try, for the most part, to attack people's arguments rather than the people themselves.
- Ashavan
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Sebastian, I just gave offered you a compliment but it seems to have been eaten (unless I failed the complicated submission process, and this too is entirely possible).
It went something like:
lol. Sorry about that.
For the record, the boldness and incisiveness of your satirical posts always draws my eye and I envy your precision with language, as I am a bit more florid in style.
That's very kind Jade, thank you. However, you already gave me one of the best compliments I've ever received (though now I feel like an idiot for having forgotten it). You compared me to a contrarian bastard who lived at the turn of the century. I read his wikipedia entry and thought he sounded like my brand of curmudgeonly evil.
And likewise, I greatly appreciate your zen-like posts. You always do so well at staying on the high ground in any debate; I'm always ready to hit the mud.
Anyway, hopefully this thread takes care of the quarterly "I'll teach Sebastian a lesson" personal attack and everyone can get back to their regularly scheduled (generally friendly) bickering.
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Anyway, hopefully this thread takes care of the quarterly "I'll teach Sebastian a lesson" personal attack and everyone can get back to their regularly scheduled (generally friendly) bickering.
I've decided to ramp it up to weekly, because you never seem to learn.
(edit)I was about to come back and add the ;) guy, but y'all know me b'now.|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I've decided to ramp it up to weekly, because you never seem to learn.
(edit)I was about to come back and add the ;) guy, but y'all know me b'now.
Unfortunately, in addition to being a very mean meanface, I'm also very slow.
And I've never noticed your posts before Mr. Ansson? Are you near here?
How's the bundle of sleeplessness?
You compared me to a contrarian bastard who lived at the turn of the century. I read his wikipedia entry and thought he sounded like my brand of curmudgeonly evil.
H.L. Mencken. A god among men.
My uncle gave me a Mencken anthology a long while back, that guy was amazing--what a gift for rendering stupidity into its pathetic, naked self.
And so quotable:
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.
--H. L. Mencken
I can't stop laughing when I read that one.
Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under.
--H. L. Mencken
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I've decided to ramp it up to weekly, because you never seem to learn.
(edit)I was about to come back and add the ;) guy, but y'all know me b'now.Unfortunately, in addition to being a very mean meanface, I'm also very slow.
And I've never noticed your posts before Mr. Ansson? Are you near here?
** spoiler omitted **
My uncle gave me a Mencken anthology a long while back, that guy was amazing--what a gift for rendering stupidity into its pathetic, naked self.
And so quotable:
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.
--H. L. MenckenI can't stop laughing when I read that one.
What's the title? I wouldn't mind searching out a copy for myself.
It's on my bookshelf a few thousand miles away so I can't check, but I think it was The Vintage Mencken with a yellow cover and him in the lower right with a stogie in his mouth.
To the original question...
I have frequented several messageboards and mailing lists where it sort of leaks that people working in the field in companies, which are not officially connected to the board, are lurking and following the conversations in name of market research.
Does WotC do market research? Beats me.
REMEMBER: Killing Mike only causes him to be reborn in a more powerful and wrathful form. He's like Charon that way.
It's likely that, even if they don't check these boards, they still hear the occasional things that we bring up.Umm... No comment.Great. Mike's a spy.
*sigh*
Now we have to kill him and take his stuff....
Dang.
Well...I got nothin'.
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If you want to report an offensive post, email me at webmaster@paizo.com.Note, sometimes I take a day off and don't check my email. Like today.
I have reported a couple this way myself. I feel better having a personal connection to reporting offensive threads. Kinda like when I call the police and actually give my name, address, and phone number when reporting something unlawful going on. I like to feel responsible for my complaints.
Lets all keep it nice here, I was worried about this thread getting REAL ugly.FH
SMURF'S UP!
da nana nana nana nana, nana nana nana nana, nana nana nana nana, ba na na na, na, nana nana nana na, badum badum badum.
Somewhere in the background, Gidgit writhes, throwing her arms about in a drunken seizure.
It's on my bookshelf a few thousand miles away so I can't check, but I think it was The Vintage Mencken with a yellow cover and him in the lower right with a stogie in his mouth.
I just found it. Stogie in the mouth and all. Thank you.
To the original question...
I have frequented several messageboards and mailing lists where it sort of leaks that people working in the field in companies, which are not officially connected to the board, are lurking and following the conversations in name of market research.
Does WotC do market research? Beats me.
According to WotC, their "market research" shows that gamers far prefer to read articles on a screen, rather than have a physical magazine. <shrugs> Draw your own conclusions from that one.
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I do agree that these boards are much more civilized, in general, than WotC's. I responding to a thread asking for comments about their beholder cartoon. I responded by saying that having a cartoon character drop the F-bomb was extrremely inappropriate for a game that is marketed to kids. My comment was dismissed offhand by a WotC employee, and I was flamed mercilessly for it. That is an example of the kind kind of treatment you can expect there. I don't really think that they care what we think. The "fire the audience" mentality is in full effect. The designers seem to think they are making houserules for their own personal games instead of the core rules for D&D. Why should they care what we think? In their eyes D&D is "theirs" and "theirs alone" to do with what they please.
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Contributor
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I used to post frequently to the Wizards boards, and I think most of the problems do stem from a volume issue. Way too often a thread simply devolved into "You're playing the game wrong" or "You're playing the wrong game." It happened over the simplest things. People asking innocent rules questions got flamed, told to play something else, etc.
Anyone who had a complaint was told to see the Stormwind Fallacy, regardless of whether it had anything to do with the discussion. Most threads looked something like:
OP - I have a problem with X.
1st - Ban X. No Problem.
2nd - X is too (some other system). Go play that.
3rd - You could try Y, it helps with X.
4th - That's a Stormwind Fallacy.
5th - Off topic comment.
6th and beyond - Flaming.
Usually someone would respond to the matter at hand, but it was a few posts in and generally got buried. That's just my 2 cents, though. I still drop by the Minis board and give the rest an occasional surf.
I find these threads on the Paizo boards, but they tend to be the exception rather than the rule.
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According to WotC, their "market research" shows that gamers far prefer to read articles on a screen, rather than have a physical magazine. <shrugs> Draw your own conclusions from that one.
Based on the questions they ask in the online, I have serious questions about its quality.
They have a strong tendency not to ask connecting questions, and to leave massive assumptions open from the questions they do ask."How much time do you spend on the internet?" - tons, I do not have a 9-5 job, and might as well lurk online as go outside and exercise or do something else constructive
"Do you use your computer with D&D?" - tons, I review adventures for the RPGA, write articles for fansites and fan e-zines, and use word files because I always lose paper notes
"Do you like CRPGs?" - sure, whenever I want to brutally slaughter random things to blow off some stress
"Hey! This guy would love the DDI and 4E designed to be more like World of Warcraft!" - . . .
I expect it is worse with people who answered they actually play MMORPGs (I do not).
As for the survey to set up the DDI, I expect my responses ("There is no way I am paying you people for stuff you have been giving me free." and "If I had no other choice, I suppose I would consider $0.01 per month a fair and reasonable price.") were overwhelmed by people willing to pay $30-50 per month.
So yes, I expect they do market research, I just have a lot of questions about its quality.
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I do agree that these boards are much more civilized, in general, than WotC's. I responding to a thread asking for comments about their beholder cartoon. I responded by saying that having a cartoon character drop the F-bomb was extrremely inappropriate for a game that is marketed to kids. My comment was dismissed offhand by a WotC employee, and I was flamed mercilessly for it. That is an example of the kind kind of treatment you can expect there. I don't really think that they care what we think. The "fire the audience" mentality is in full effect. The designers seem to think they are making houserules for their own personal games instead of the core rules for D&D. Why should they care what we think? In their eyes D&D is "theirs" and "theirs alone" to do with what they please.
Just walking away will not help.
That is why I am currently being attacked for denouncing that "Confessions of a full time wizard" tripe. Between those two and Mirrorstone (WotC promotes a book line for children 6-13 on Myspace, where the minimum age for an account is 14), Paizo may not have to worry about putting content warnings on Pathfinder - WotC is making all of D&D "Mature Audiences Only."The problem with the 4E forums is that too many people on both sides keep delving into personal attacks (I reported 4 or 5 posts in that Bleeping Beholder thread, the WizO post about not getting political being in pretty much direct response to the last one I sent), or they engage in transferred criticism that rapidly devolves into personal attacks (such as the whole thread involving C A Suleiman).
I do agree with you about "houserules instead of core rules." I have been saying the same thing for years. Unfortunately it seems all of R&D has been taken over by people who support that, so the whole game is turning into which houserules got the most votes.
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I do agree with you about Shelly's articles. I don't think that that poor girl can write anything but tribe. I'm also glad to see that someone else sees the adolescent approach they take to game design. How many times have seen in their blogs and design and development articles comments that they removed something from the game because they personally didn't like it or added something because it just looked cool. Who cares if millions of D&D fans do like what they just removed or hate the "cool" new race they added? It seems they forgot they are supposed to be making the game for us, the people who pay money for the rules to play the game, not just for them and their group of gaming buddies.
The Mature scene in Crown of the Kobold King where Jekkajak tears poor Tyran Moonsliver’s heart from his chest with the Heartripper Blade just as the PCs enter is the type of material gaming needs more of. To me, that kind of raw, realistic writing is what makes Paizo stand out.
Just walking away will not help.
That is why I am currently being attacked for denouncing that "Confessions of a full time wizard" tripe. Between those two and Mirrorstone (WotC promotes a book line for children 6-13 on Myspace, where the minimum age for an account is 14), Paizo may not have to worry about putting content warnings on Pathfinder - WotC is making all of D&D "Mature Audiences Only."The problem with the 4E forums is that too many people on both sides keep delving into personal attacks (I reported 4 or 5 posts in that Bleeping Beholder thread, the WizO post about not getting political being in pretty much direct response to the last one I sent), or they engage in transferred criticism that rapidly devolves into personal attacks (such as the whole thread involving C A Suleiman).
I do agree with you about "houserules instead of core rules." I have been saying the same thing for years. Unfortunately it seems all of R&D has been taken over by people who support that, so the whole game is turning into which houserules got the most votes.
Hahaha. I've been posting on both of the threads relating to the most recent "Confessions of..." article and some of the people responding are ridiculous. As I stated there I am not a fan of her work, I couldn't even get through the second article. All of the women I know who play D&D and those who have considered playing D&D would find that whole column insulting and shallow.
As for C.A Suleiman...I'll keep my opinion to myself but let it be known that I don't plan on buying any of his products. No support for him.
If any of you refer to threads over at WotCs boards, could you include a link for reference? I´m just curious and would like to form my own opinion of the "flameability" of WotCs boards, but searching through all the threads over there is just too much.
Stefan
All of the women I know who play D&D and those who have considered playing D&D would find that whole column insulting and shallow.
The articles have a few redeeming qualities, but the content is absolutely geared towards attracting customers that do not currently game, as opposed to retaining customers that already game.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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If any of you refer to threads over at WotCs boards, could you include a link for reference? I´m just curious and would like to form my own opinion of the "flameability" of WotCs boards, but searching through all the threads over there is just too much.
Stefan
You don't really need to do much searching - just about any thread in the 4e or dragon forum will pass the flamability test.
I tried posting on the WOTC forum for awhile, but everytime I expressed an opinion, whether it was strong or mild, I always put it in the correct forum and still got attacked. I don't like getting involved in these unfriendly discussions so after simply ending discussions prematurely, I eventually stopped posting all together. Once in a great while someone else would be nice in return, but it was so few and far in between that I would actually get upset with these folks. So like I said, I stopped posting. I still read their forum for information but have chosen not to post (even when I wanted to respond to compliment someone, I chose not to) I just read and leave.
I was hoping that Paizo would be friendlier.
I was hoping that Paizo would be friendlier.
Are folks here as unfriendly as those at WotC to you? (I hope not).
Stefan
Stebehil:
Oh, no, so far I have found people to be rather charming and humorous. I have only posted a few times there was no underlying message intended at all.
Stebehil:
Oh, no, so far I have found people to be rather charming and humorous. I have only posted a few times there was no underlying message intended at all.
Blooorrrrrcchh!
*glomps Eileen, prophet of Istus*
Welcome!
I was hoping that Paizo would be friendlier.
IMO they are friendly, but it can be a teasing (or outright sarcastic) kind of friendly at times -- a thick skin is helpful around here :)
For what it's worth, I'm ecstatic with the level of civility and discourse here -- especially for a community that is mostly self-moderated.
For what it's worth, I'm ecstatic with the level of civility and discourse here....
Me too! Splooorrrttcchh!
They're so cruel. They just don't stop!
IMO they are friendly, but it can be a teasing (or outright sarcastic) kind of friendly at times -- a thick skin is helpful around here :)
For what it's worth, I'm ecstatic with the level of civility and discourse here....
Me too! Splooorrrttcchh!
OK -- most of it :P
I was hoping that Paizo would be friendlier.IMO they are friendly, but it can be a teasing (or outright sarcastic) kind of friendly at times -- a thick skin is helpful around here :)
For what it's worth, I'm ecstatic with the level of civility and discourse here -- especially for a community that is mostly self-moderated.
I love Paizo's boards, such witty posters (out right hilarious at times), intelligent and thought provoking conversations, the staff and contributor's don't just post occasionally, they post all the time and are more than happy to try and answer questions, and are incredibly terrific about following up on their answers... it's almost Utopic.
(I'm not being sarcastic... well maybe the Utopic comment... I really do love the boards here, I waste more time here during my day then... I've probably said to much).
HOORAH to the posters on Paizo's boards!!
I was hoping that Paizo would be friendlier.
In most cases, I would say that is the case. But not in every case.
In fact the "4E Quests System" thread seems to be taking on quite the WotC-ish "my D&D is better than your D&D"/"You're not playing D&D right" tone.
Thank you for the warm welcome. I shall do my best to meet your wit and thought provoking conversation.
Haaaarrrrpppphhhh!