I tend to think that the giants are not yet ready to march, so the PCs should be in time unless they really dilly-dally.
That said, if the Pcs do warn Sandpoint, I'd have Sandpoint be a lot more prepared, and able to help the players defend the town a lot better. Some ballista e, repairs to the walls, local item crafters creating anti-giant items, a few extra pit traps and things...
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I'm just glad I finally acquired Curse of the Crimson Throne, it truly is as good as they say :-)
Ooooh! Good for you! It's officially going to be the first AP I've ever run twice, assuming work ever lets up.
(I had two weeks of "down time" after handing off a project, and my manager "loaned" me to another department as a political act of goodwill. (We do call in those favors, so it's useful to do them.) They proceeded to BURY me with work. So I was hoping to start this weekend. With a two-week death march, I'm surprised I've even got time to post to Paizo, much less prep a campaign...)
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Well, Enga proved to be extremely anticlimactic.
Round one, she charges the group and attacks the first person she reaches - the sneakthief Essanne. She actually would have hit... if Essanne didn't have four levels of Rogue, giving her that rogue ability not to be flatfooted. Sadly, that meant Essanne was AC 36 and the first attack missed.
Essanne retaliated with a couple holes pocked in Enga (and I made a mistake with damage reduction, thinking it only reduced by 3 rather than by 6)... and then the Ice Sorceress acted.
Icy Prison. And Enga failed her save.
She wasn't even able to activate her fireball necklace to take the PCs out with her.
Mind you, the group were arguing whether letting her freeze to death was a good thing or not, and two players (who got a point of Zeal) were saying "we should break her out and mercy-kill her" but I argued the side of "we know we won't be hurt this way. Let her freeze to death." And they did.
Enga would need a natural 20 to break out of the Icy Prison (caster level of 12 plus the 15 combined for the strength check). I did roll for the 17 rounds it would take for her to freeze to death (12 hit points damage a round). A couple 19s happened. No 20s.
This. This is why you don't have a solo antagonist. Or protagonist for that matter. One spell can end up ending the entire encounter. Mind you I was amused by this, not disappointed. But it still pointed out why you can't have the villain by him/herself. :)
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Damn Tangent, that's cold:D
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Oh oh, have her return as an Icy Graveknight:D
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Teaming up with the Mold That Walks? ;) (That being the merger of Aldren's dead corpse and the mold that was his great great grandpappy...)
Oh, oh
Take a vanquished enemy from each chapter, level and add templates to them (a fungal lich Mammy Graul perhaps) then have them face them in the last book a RotRl super villain team if you will
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Got a weird situation to start this book. My group found the note at Hook Mountain about the attack on Sandpoint at the end of last session, and they've been emailing about how to handle it before next session.
One of the suggestions someone came up with is using magic (Sending) to contact Sandpoint and tell them to evacuate, long before the PCs can get there to repel the invasion. Since they don't currently have any teleportation options, it would be over a week of travel time after the message arrives and before the PCs get there.
So I'm debating how to handle that.
So after all the debate in this thread about how to handle it, this ended up not being an issue. The sorceress took Teleport as a known spell on the level up, though they surprised me by teleporting to Magnimar instead of Sandpoint. They figured it's only a day by horseback between them, so this would give them a little time to sell their loot, get new equipment, and ask the Lord-Mayor of Magnimar for reenforcements.
Then they did a Divination to find out when the attack would be, and realized Magnimar wouldn't have time to assemble an army. They're pretty much on their own, plus Sandpoint's militia and a couple of NPCs who may be a little useful, just as the AP intended. I gave them a day for travel to Sandpoint before the attack will happen, but they decided to teleport that morning instead of riding horses, so they'll have a full day in Sandpoint to prepare for battle and evacuate as many civilians as possible.
So next session, they'll arrive in Sandpoint, prep for battle, and the attack will begin!
How did other GMs handle players wanting to rest up after entering the caverns under Jorgenfist? While the PCs didn't alert any giants or patrols up above, they did kill Enga, the giant General, the ogres, and the giant smiths. I figure at that point, resting for any period of time makes it difficult for the group to hole up, even using spells like Rope Trick or the like, and I strongly hinted to the group that resting up wouldn't work - the entire place would go on high alert.
My interpretation would be that resting in any of the spaces under Jorgenfist would be nigh on impossible. Especially with the casualties described - in a period measured in hours someone would notice those creatures were dead or missing (not mention the carnage left behind by combats.) After such a discovery, the alarm should be raised and a search for intruders started.
Some kind of extra-dimensional hiding space might work - like rope trick - though per spell description, the rope is not hidden by the spell. If they have allied with Conna, they might be able to hide in the haunted shrine since none of the current occupants - other than Conna - visit it. I suppose if they've taken out Conna as well, they could use the space but the haunt would have to be dealt with as well... And pending their interaction with Conna, there would be no way for them to know the space is avoided by the remaining residents.
If they came through the redcap tunnels (or otherwise find them) they might hide there but they should have multiple fights with waves of redcaps before the pesky little creatures get the hint and leave the pc's alone.
As per the description in the AP, I had Conna quite nervous while in the shrine, as if someone could appear at any time despite the haunt. I also had her admit about her husband's spirit haunting the place and how the moment she leaves, it would attack them. And I emphasized how they probably couldn't just rest up anywhere without the alarm being called.
Still, I wanted to make sure I wasn't being heavy-handed.
That said, the group still has plenty of resources. It's just they burned through much of their Mythic (as I've incorporated Mythic into the AP (They're at Tier 2 at the moment - I'm planning on Karzoug to have 10 Tiers in fact, and if they disrupt the "weak spots" then it will reduce the number of tiers he has)). The Eldritch Knight has gotten used to being able to cast any spell he wants with the Archmage ability. ;)
It should be interesting how they do in the future. They tend to be completionists (so not to have enemies sneaking up behind them), which could mean their resources will be running low by the time they reach M.
(As an aside, here's another odd question: Would using Door Sight on the Library Door trigger the trap with the Shining One? While it doesn't force the door open or the like, it DOES bypass the door and I will admit I'm tempted to have the cleric "see" the Shining One and have to make a saving throw just to be evil, even if it's not summoned :) Though considering the cleric has the highest Will Save in the game and also the Nymph's blessing... she'd have to roll a 1 to fail. ;)
It's pretty much up to you; the doors are strange given that the trap isn't presented as a trap, and what constitutes an attempt to 'force' the doors could just be trying to push them open.
When that exact scenario came up in my game I didn't have the Shining Child appear yet, but my group never went to the tower (and thus never got the password) so I knew they were going to trigger the encounter anyway. They got excited/impatient seeing the library in there anyway and tried to break the door down shortly after.
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How did other GMs handle players wanting to rest up after entering the caverns under Jorgenfist? While the PCs didn't alert any giants or patrols up above, they did kill Enga, the giant General, the ogres, and the giant smiths. I figure at that point, resting for any period of time makes it difficult for the group to hole up, even using spells like Rope Trick or the like, and I strongly hinted to the group that resting up wouldn't work - the entire place would go on high alert.
My party came in through the redcap tunnels, so if they realize they can go back out to the spider cave, it's not much of an issue for rest out there. Granted, there might be a heightened sense of alert the next morning, depending on how things went.
My group did come up with a handy trick for recovering spells. They used the spell Nap Stack. They cleaned up their fight with the Troll guards, hid the bodies (standing up so it could look on first glance like they're sleeping), and I figure a two hour delay is far less likely to result in the alarm being raised.
I've decided, however, this won't replenish their Mythic points - that only happens every 24 hours. (They have two Tiers currently and have burned through the majority of their points. And yes, I have perhaps upgraded certain enemies with Mythic in mind... heh heh heh)
Though I am curious on one thing. I'm contemplating whether or not that a Mythic Thassilonian Specialist would be able to cast Opposition School spells if they used the Archmage ability to cast any spell. I've decided against it, as the whole shtick of Thassilonian specialists is extra power at the expense of never casting those spells, and it seems cheap to use Mythic to get around that weakness. (You know, sort of like giving a flying Oracle the Lame disability.)
Just for convenience sakes, the resale value of Mokmurian's spellbooks is 61,876 gold. That's assuming just the Core Rule spells are in the spellbooks as per the Anniversary Edition.
Oh, and transcribing all of the spells from levels 1 to 6 would be 960 hours. That would be 60 days, assuming the wizard transcribed for 16 hours a day.
Even assuming the wizard already has a decent number of those spells... you're still seeing a good 30+ days to copy all those spells from Mokmurian's spellbook.
My party set an ambush outside of Sandpoint after divining the direction the giants would come from. They destroyed the giants (except for one who jumped in the ocean and got away), and since they ambushed the giants right before they got to the Roosts, this was dragon-less.
Now, the pcs are embracing downtime, while the giant makes his way back to Jorgenfist. (aside, can a juvenile red dragon pick a stone giant out of the water and get him to land?)
Now, that I'm re-reading "Longtooth is proud and arrogant", maybe I should've had him attack on his own later that day; but I already have several email threads going on how they're spending their downtime (I kind of haven't been providing downtime since they first got to Magnimar).
One of the downtime activities, is that our Magus wants to Enlarge Person and start digging up The Old Light. This is particularly alarming to me, because wouldn't they get into the Scribbler's dungeons?
None of them seem to be advocating to travel out towards Jorgenfist. Should I have a 2nd raid on Sandpoint happen, this time with larger numbers? That would have the added benefit of being able to use all the raid materials I prepared.
First-time GM, and I'm learning I'm not great at improvisation, so any advice is welcomed!
My personal take: The world is the world, you are merely a conduit between the PCs and that world, and they can easily bury themselves if they so choose.
Give them plenty of foreshadowing: They hear the baying of the Scribbler's hounds. If they have a paladin, he or she will (hopefully) Detect Evil before breaking that last foot of stone, and will learn that whatever's in there is Out of their League. If the magus is sensible enough to Detect Magic, you can give hints that there's some powerful magic down there; probably more than the PCs can handle.
The dig should be full of foreboding, dread, and plenty of GM, "Are you SURE you want to do that?" moments.
They break through, let a couple of them survive and plug the hole, and they'll know it'll be a while before they can deal with THAT little treat...
Shouldn't that be in the next chapter section? ;)
Ok, rereading the next chapter. It looks like the Scribbler's Lair would be underneath the Catacombs of Wrath, so even if he keeps digging, he would hit that dungeon first. Also, The Scribbler wakes up when the Runeforge pulses upon Mokmurian's death. Is there actually anything sentient down there? I think the Yeth Hounds are down there, because back in the CoW chapter, it recommended foreshadowing distant howling.
Thanks for the reminder of the geography! The Old Light is far enough out that you could go ahead and rule that it's fully caved in, and doesn't connect to the Scribbler's chambers. It's a kinder approach, but it works...
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My group skipped the Storval Stairs by teleporting to Fort Rannick and heading into the mountains from there, because they figured it would get them to Jorgenfist faster. They're intentionally trying to get there before Mokmurian would expect the raiding party to return from Sandpoint.
I figure they should at least run into one of the giant hunting parties on the way. What did people use for battle maps for that type of encounter in the mountains? I'm trying to decide what type of terrain to use for this. ie path along the side of a mountain with a sheer drop, or valley between mountains, etc.
I'm thinking more restrictive terrain might make it tougher for the PCs, and maybe they can be ambushed by the giants dropping rocks on them from above or something, just to make it tough. My group is destroying most of the fights, so I've been trying to make them a little tougher here and there without varying the published adventure too much. But they're pretty focused on being damage machines, so they're really outmatching most battles badly.
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In my PbP here my guys had quite a long tramp through the mountains from Fort Rannick, much like your lot. I used it mainly for a bit of description - climbing up glacial valleys, that sort of thing - but you might consider something other than giants (they will get plenty of those at Jorgenfist). How about being stampeded by a herd of mammoths? They also disturbed an ancient giant burial ground and got attacked by a giant wight. I also threw in a roleplaying bit with some stone giants who were opposed to Mokmurian, which was useful for a bit of foreshadowing and passing on information they didn't necessarily have already.
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Well, I'm trying to use the encounters that are in the anniversary edition of the adventure path. The last one of those optional encounters in the trip to Jorgenfist is a giant hunting party made of 2 stone giants and 3 dire bears, out hunting food to supply the armies at Jorgenfist.
I was figuring probably at least one more encounter before that, probably taken from the random encounter tables at the back of the book.
But again, my main question is what maps to use. I'm trying to decide how to use the mountainous terrain.
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Well, I draw my own maps. Of the combat encounters, one was in a small copse or wood, one was on a mountain path, one was in a pine forest which also had giant burial mounds, and the last was by a stream. For inspiration, I actually read an old mountaineering book about Nanda Devi, which contained a lot of stuff about travelling in mountainous terrain.
I must admit some curiosity: how many GMs had their players end up encountering the Black Monk and the upper parts of Jorgenfist after the group wipes out Mokmurian? I mean, a little scouting would allow players to find the caves and a back way in...
In this case, how do you handle the encounters up above? If Conna has revealed Mokurian's death (and hinted perhaps at the dark curse that befell him for violating the taboo of the location), would any giants remain above?
What of
It does seem likely some encounters would remain unchanged
I must admit some curiosity: how many GMs had their players end up encountering the Black Monk and the upper parts of Jorgenfist after the group wipes out Mokmurian? I mean, a little scouting would allow players to find the caves and a back way in...
In this case, how do you handle the encounters up above? If Conna has revealed Mokurian's death (and hinted perhaps at the dark curse that befell him for violating the taboo of the location), would any giants remain above?
What of ** spoiler omitted **
It does seem likely some encounters would remain unchanged ** spoiler omitted ** but how did others handle this?
You've read my journal, but for the sake of completeness:
Well, I'm trying to use the encounters that are in the anniversary edition of the adventure path. The last one of those optional encounters in the trip to Jorgenfist is a giant hunting party made of 2 stone giants and 3 dire bears, out hunting food to supply the armies at Jorgenfist.
I was figuring probably at least one more encounter before that, probably taken from the random encounter tables at the back of the book.
But again, my main question is what maps to use. I'm trying to decide how to use the mountainous terrain.
In general it depends on how difficult you want to make it - mountains have features that vary depending on where the fight happens...
A flat-ish area - normal wilderness fight
Cliffs and such make natural hazards (and should up the CR if used).
If they are actually climbing - the grade of the slope could be anything from 'slight' to 'severe' and you could rule the entire battlefield 'difficult terrain' in one direction (up) and moving down is the same unless they want to make a DC (something) acrobatics check in which case they get 2 squares for every 5 feet of movement - moving sideways should be normal.
That's just how I'd do it - you can even combine/mix up the above.
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Thanks Aubrey and Ckorik. Having spent most of my life near sea level, I'm just no expert on mountainous terrain. I have some general ideas, but I was trying to decide how to handle it.
For the sake of ease, I've decided that the first "random" encounter will use a pre-printed forest map that I have, and I'll just say that there are some trees between the mountains that they're passing through. That will be when they're first entering the mountains.
I'm thinking for the giant patrol close to Jorgenfist, I'll draw a trail along the side of a mountain, with a cliff wall going up on one side, and a cliff dropping off the other. Then we'll go for some bull rush tactics and have fun with it. They should still win pretty easily, but someone falling 100 feet or something could slow them down, damage them pretty badly, and maybe give the giants time to run back and alert the fort of pending intruders.
In re-reading the next section of the adventure, I realized my PCs may screw things up some. Conna's supposed to be waiting for them, based on knowing that the giants were defeated in Sandpoint, and expecting the adventurers who did it to come to Jorgenfist. But my party intentionally used teleportation to try and get to Jorgenfist before word of the battle in Sandpoint could get back there. Will Conna still have any reason to expect them?
In my case, my group actually let Barl Breakbones live after beating him and his troops at Hook Mountain, so that probably solves the dilemma of how Conna would know of the PCs. I'm debating if Barl should be back at Jorgenfist, happily anticipating round 2 vs the PCs, or if Mokmurian would have killed him for his failure. I like the idea of the group getting to fight the same bad guy a second time, this time in a tougher environment, with more giants around. But it does seem like M's style to kill those who fail him.
I must admit some curiosity: how many GMs had their players end up encountering the Black Monk and the upper parts of Jorgenfist after the group wipes out Mokmurian? I mean, a little scouting would allow players to find the caves and a back way in...
In this case, how do you handle the encounters up above? If Conna has revealed Mokurian's death (and hinted perhaps at the dark curse that befell him for violating the taboo of the location), would any giants remain above?
What of ** spoiler omitted **
It does seem likely some encounters would remain unchanged ** spoiler omitted ** but how did others handle this?
You've read my journal, but for the sake of completeness:
Conna took Mokmurian's head topside and declared herself chieftan. There was a bit of hilarity involved, but they avoided "real" combat with the remaining giants. (I had a rival giant challenge her for leadership and he was destroying her, but two fumbles in a row by him hit the observing paladin with his thrown rocks twice in a row, at which point I had to say, "Yeah, the other giants tell you that by the rules, you can now go in." It was over for the poor challenger VERY quickly once he was fighting a paladin instead of a fairly low-level sorcerer.)
My party took out the harpies and the Black Monk first, but my feeling is that since they're not part of Mokmurian's 'horde', I'd play them as-written.
My group is in the midst of coming from the top down - giant casualties have been very high. But this is how I would handle it if they had started underneath: I'd let Conna tame the stone giants, Ember and the mammoths if she comes up with Mokmurian's head and both Galenmir and Lokansir are dead (ie, no rivals.) She would need to not be obviously allied with the pc's and instead arguing something along the lines of "the gods have struck Mokmurian down for his blasphemy and it's time for us to return to our ways and our lands." The fewer giants the pc's have killed previously, the more successful this will be. With Mokmurian dead (and their alliance with him,) the frost giants should be willing to depart without violene. The monks should mistrustful but willing to let the pc's carry-on as they wish as long they do not enter the Black Tower.
That's largely how I expect it will go if/when my group cleans out the rest of Jorgenfist. Conna should be able to break up the army outside gates along the same lines. My group hasn't encountered her yet but I fully expect them to ally with her.
Thanks Aubrey and Ckorik. Having spent most of my life near sea level, I'm just no expert on mountainous terrain. I have some general ideas, but I was trying to decide how to handle it.
For the sake of ease, I've decided that the first "random" encounter will use a pre-printed forest map that I have, and I'll just say that there are some trees between the mountains that they're passing through. That will be when they're first entering the mountains.
I'm thinking for the giant patrol close to Jorgenfist, I'll draw a trail along the side of a mountain, with a cliff wall going up on one side, and a cliff dropping off the other. Then we'll go for some bull rush tactics and have fun with it. They should still win pretty easily, but someone falling 100 feet or something could slow them down, damage them pretty badly, and maybe give the giants time to run back and alert the fort of pending intruders.
In re-reading the next section of the adventure, I realized my PCs may screw things up some. Conna's supposed to be waiting for them, based on knowing that the giants were defeated in Sandpoint, and expecting the adventurers who did it to come to Jorgenfist. But my party intentionally used teleportation to try and get to Jorgenfist before word of the battle in Sandpoint could get back there. Will Conna still have any reason to expect them?
In my case, my group actually let Barl Breakbones live after beating him and his troops at Hook Mountain, so that probably solves the dilemma of how Conna would know of the PCs. I'm debating if Barl should be back at Jorgenfist, happily anticipating round 2 vs the PCs, or if Mokmurian would have killed him for his failure. I like the idea of the group getting to fight the same bad guy a second time, this time in a tougher environment, with more giants around. But it does seem like M's style to kill those who fail him.
My assumption is that Conna has been waiting for someone to retaliate against Mokmurian for some time. She doesn't need to know about the outcome of the Sandpoint raid to respond to any intrusion Under Jorgenfist (or even in the Courtyard.)
Why did they let Barl live? That might influence what happens next. If Barl made promises to get his freedom, including things like neve being seen again, etc. you should consider having him honor them. Not because he's particularly inclined to honor them but because if he doesn't, you're signaling to your players they shouldn't take any more prisoners.
Mokmurian may or may not punish failure but Karzoug sure seems like that kind of BBEG. Pending your view of how much Karzoug is making the decisions, he might punish Barl with death. "You've failed me for the last time..." The group may find Barl splayed on the outer walls as a "motivational poster."
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I feel like an idiot for not thinking of this sooner. How do the giants at Jorgenfist cross the river? Or do they?
My PCs are approaching from the other side of the river. They teleported to Fort Rannick and marched into the mountains from there, hoping to reach Jorgenfist before the raiding party was due back from Sandpoint. They'll be able to fly across the river, but I'm wondering if there are other routes, just in case something weird comes up (which seems likely).
Depends on how deep the river is. They are over ten feet tall (Mokmurian is considered a runt at 10 feet). They have two Rocs, and if Longtooth is alive then he can also carry a giant across, so they might be able to ferry across a decent-sized warparty without a huge amount of effort.
Also, Mokmurian is a spellcaster. His spellbooks have all of the spells through 6th level... which includes Freezing Sphere. That would create a 40-foot-radius sphere of ice that's six inches deep - which should be enough for giants to go across fairly quickly, and definitely enough to let the dire bears cross.
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Well, the river isn't the big issue - it's the fact that the river is at the bottom of a deep ravine. Next to Jorgenfist, the river is hundreds of feet down.
Anyhow, I improvised, and said the giants have a bridge a few miles south of Jorgenfist that they use to get across the ravine. My players found after killing a giant hunting party and following their tracks. But they assumed an ambush, because giants would be watching the bridge, so they decided to stick to the east side of the river and cross after they found Jorgenfist, using flight and invisibility for cover.
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So my party is being WAY overly cautious in approaching Jorgenfist.
After creaming the giants and dragon in Sandpoint, they intentionally raced to Jorgenfist faster than the raiding party could have made it back had they succeeeded, hoping that Mokmurian wouldn't have gotten word of the defeat yet. Teleporting to Fort Rannick saved at least a week of travel time, so they probably succeeded. There were giants who survived the Sandpoint raid, but the PCs captured them and made them promise not to go back to Mokmurian, and I figure they'll probably stick to that out of fear of both the PCs and Mokmurian's wrath. So would M have any way of knowing that the raid failed before the PCs get there?
They cleared the wyvern cave and looted the dragon cave, but they're been reluctant to go through the bug cave. They scouted it from outside already using fly and invisibility, so they know it's full of bugs, and don't want to have to mess with it. Because the other two didn't lead to any secret passages that will get them in, I think they've kinda given up on the bug cave having any, which is ironic, since that's the one that actually does.
So they were debating plans of attack, and as I said, they're being overly cautious. Since they beat up one hunting party of giants on their way to Jorgenfist, they were considering hanging out where they could ambush small groups like that regularly, trying to take out the whole giant army a few at a time over a period of weeks. This is a longer term strategy that obviously won't work. I figure after a couple of days of hunting parties not returning, the giants will get more cautious. Also, I'm thinking another whole tribe of giants could arrive at Jorgenfist, replacing those who were lost and being too many for the PCs to fight at once.
They also thought about using fly, silence, and invisibility sphere to sneak over the wall and get into the main tower. They're totally focused on that tower - they've seen the pit from a distance, but they're assuming it's just for waste disposal, and don't realize the complex has underground layers. So flying in invisibly to raid the tower seems to be their plan B right now, while taking out the army a little at a time or exploring the bug cave are plans C and D.
Plan A, as we left it at the end of yesterday's session, was to use illusions to pretend the dragon had returned from the raid and headed directly to his cave without going to see Mokmurian. They've got Major Image, so they could make it look like the dragon flew into the valley (from the wrong direction, since the range of the spell doesn't cover the whole width of the valley) and went straight to his cave. They're hoping this will lure Mokmurian to come to the dragon cave (where they're currently squatting to watch the giants from a distance), so they can ambush him on their terms.
I have to decide how M would respond to this.
The cave is 450 feet up a vertical cliff face, and Mokmurian can fly, while most of his underlings can't. And barring another method of knowing about what happened in Sandpoint (I'll have to double check his spellbook for divination possibilities, among other things), he would be waiting for the dragon and Teraktinus to get back and check in with him. So this plan actually has potential.
But I don't want to make it too easy for them by having M take the bait immediately. Maybe he'd assume if the dragon is back, then Teraktinus will be following shortly, so he's likely to wait a few hours or maybe even a full day, before sending someone to the dragon cave to see what's up. And he'd certainly send an underling instead of going himself. If the underling doesn't come back, then Mokmurian's smart enough to realize it's a trap, and the PCs could find themselves trapped in that cave with only one entrance/exit facing the giant army. But how would the giants reach them to attack en masse? Or would they just collapse the cave entrance by throwing boulders at it?
Lots of possibilities here. Any suggestions?
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The AP (AE) indicates Mokmurian uses Sending to communicate with Teraktinus (p. 187) so I assume he'd do the same thing here. When he doesn't get an answer (because Longtooth is dead) he will assume its a trick. (Indeed, the AP has a flaw here - whatever happens during the raid on Sandpoint, Mokmurian should try to use Sending to reach Teraktinus or Longtooth. Presuming one or both are dead, silence in response tells Mokmurian something has gone wrong. Mokmurian should know the raid on Sandpoint failed and the Fortress should respond accordingly - he may not tell his subordinates the details but the place should be on alert.)
Given he has limited ability to get his forces to the dragon cave, my view is he would ignore it. It's a distraction, his enemies are using illusion to mislead him. Perhaps one of the roc's is sent to fly over the area. The roc's may actually be key here - they should be be flying over the entire valley watching for intruders. This should be far too high for anyone not also flying to engage. One of them is most likely to see the wrong-way dragon illusion.
Of course if you wanted to get crazy, he could send Lokansir (riding a roc) to the area to use his earthquake power to collapse the place. The roc's could even carry a few Stone Giants as escort (a la LotR.) Enga could easily tag along...
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Yeah, I really need to reread the rest of book 4. I read it months ago, and re-read the beginning parts of Jorgenfist, but haven't finished re-reading as far as Mokmurian's stats and spells again. Our group is just so slow that I end up re-read everything at least twice before they get to it.
So I forgot he used Sending. So he would already know that the raid failed, and might be planning a backup raid, though it'll take a while to plan and send. And you're right that he'll probably try Sending on the Longtooth illusion, and realize it's fake pretty quickly. I just have to decide how he'd react to that.
I told my PCs that they saw the rocs wandering around the valley once in a while. But they've been using Invisibility Sphere whenever they fly anywhere, so they've had an easy time going unnoticed. They just don't get too close to any of the giant camps.
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I think I found a way to help a Big Bad actually survive several rounds with the enemy - er, the party!
I gave the Black Monk 2 Mythic Tiers of Guardian.
The battle is currently being handled via e-mails until Sunday's game. After flushing out the Black Monk, combat commenced, with the Monk currently using its Despair aura (and having relied on everyone being Flatfooted to escape fiery death in the chamber below).
The first successful attack on him (well, not including a Channel Positive Energy against him) did exactly 10 points of damage... boosting his damage resistance by 1, and giving him 5 points Fire Resistance. Next round he'll probably block another 10 points of damage which will boost his resistances by another 1/5... and the melee type is currently paralyzed with dread (though the Sorceress is planning on hitting her with a Greater Heroism).
It is very unlikely the group will manage to drop him in a couple of rounds. So his damage resistance is slowly going to grow, and fire will do less and less to him (already Flame Arrow will only be a minor inconvenience against him). This should prove most interesting.
My group searched the the approaches to Sandpoint and located Teraktinus' raiding party before they attacked. The stone giants were all slaughtered easily in the night. I elected to have Longtooth off on his own and not present during the fight. During the fight a stone giant attempted to sound the warhorn and summon the dragon, but he was cut down before he could retrieve it. After questioning a helpful stone giant prisoner (a son of Conna's I named Vaducus) the party learned of the dragon. They decided to lay an ambush in the morning and sound the horn...
For the future: how do groups of PC's attack, infiltrate or penetrate the fortress without aggroing everyone in the valley? It seems to me after the first few combat encounters, the fortress would be roused and the PC's will be dealing with over 100 bad guys. Is it just assumed that once inside, all of the tribes and monsters camped outside will not respond or enter the fortress? Even an alerted Mokmurian and all the badies he brings with him inside the fortress will be tough for most parties.
I'm trying to make this a little more dramatic than a list of bad guys that wait around in rooms or areas for the PC's to show up.
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Hopefully, your PCs have a little more tact than that. Most groups I've read about use Invisibility Sphere and then either Fly or Dimension Door to get into the fortress sight unseen. Heck, if memory serves, my group made it all the way down to Conna before having a single fight, then promised her they'd kill as few giants as possible if she would help them. There weren't any deaths 'til that wacky kobold decided to go toe-to-toe with a "real" barbarian and learned that an earthbreaker and some obscene hit point rolling makes all the difference in the world...
..if memory serves, my group made it all the way down to Conna before having a single fight, then promised her they'd kill as few giants as possible if she would help them. There weren't any deaths 'til that wacky kobold decided to go toe-to-toe with a "real" barbarian and learned that an earthbreaker and some obscene hit point rolling makes all the difference in the world...
Okay, no problem. Then what happened? Why did this fight not spill over into other areas at all and alert the whole compound? Afterwards did the party proceed from area to area fighting everything in isolation as they went?
Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to be dismissive or insulting. I'm just searching for ideas to run these enemies in an intelligent and logical manner. My group has already questioned why none of the enemies they encounter ever raise any kind of alarm or respond to epic fights happening in adjacent rooms (examples include: Thistletop, the Graul homestead and Fort Rannick).
The meta game answer is because if the entire location becomes alert and the bad guys send everything in at the party (as they really should do), they would be dead. The group needs to face these challenges in isolation from one another. How to accomplish this without straining my groups already stretched suspension of belief is puzzling me.
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Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to be dismissive or insulting. I'm just searching for ideas to run these enemies in an intelligent and logical manner. My group has already questioned why none of the enemies they encounter ever raise any kind of alarm or respond to epic fights happening in adjacent rooms (examples include: Thistletop, the Graul homestead and Fort Rannick).
The meta game answer is because if the entire location becomes alert and the bad guys send everything in at the party (as they really should do), they would be dead. The group needs to face these challenges in isolation from one another. How to accomplish this without straining my groups already stretched suspension of belief is puzzling me.
My group didn't face these things in isolation. When they started their first fight inside Fort Rannick, on the ground floor (after sneaking in through the basement and using a Silence spell during the one fight there, so it didn't attract attention), all the other ogres inside the ground floor came running. It just took a few rounds to get there, so they were able to handle them a couple at a time pretty easily. This has happened in a few areas of the adventure path so far.
In some parts of the adventure, it specifically says that certain groups of baddies ignore disturbances outside their rooms for specific reasons. Other than that, you do have to remember that some of them live in noisy areas, so they might not recognize fighting noises for what they are, unless a bad guy intentionally raises an alarm. Think of it logically for each area, and don't be afraid to combine fights occasionally, but make sure it takes a couple of rounds of saying "What was that?" and deciding to come, along with traveling time, before the second group arrives to check things out.
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..if memory serves, my group made it all the way down to Conna before having a single fight, then promised her they'd kill as few giants as possible if she would help them. There weren't any deaths 'til that wacky kobold decided to go toe-to-toe with a "real" barbarian and learned that an earthbreaker and some obscene hit point rolling makes all the difference in the world...
Okay, no problem. Then what happened? Why did this fight not spill over into other areas at all and alert the whole compound? Afterwards did the party proceed from area to area fighting everything in isolation as they went?
Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to be dismissive or insulting. I'm just searching for ideas to run these enemies in an intelligent and logical manner. My group has already questioned why none of the enemies they encounter ever raise any kind of alarm or respond to epic fights happening in adjacent rooms (examples include: Thistletop, the Graul homestead and Fort Rannick).
The meta game answer is because if the entire location becomes alert and the bad guys send everything in at the party (as they really should do), they would be dead. The group needs to face these challenges in isolation from one another. How to accomplish this without straining my groups already stretched suspension of belief is puzzling me.
What Fromper said.
For all groups that might hear the fight and were not explicitly listed as staying put, I rolled Perception. You have to remember that some are working forges, some are cooking, etc., so hearing a fight down there isn't a guarantee. The DC to hear a fight is -10. Start adding distance and ambient noise and it's surprising how close other groups have to be to hear a fight. My party also used Silence pretty much the moment a fight broke out, so groups in other areas would have minimal chances to hear things.
Then comes the alarm aspect of it: Human (and presumably demi-human) nature is to go see what's going on before sounding a general alarm. It takes AGES to get military personnel to understand the idea of, "Sound the alarm, THEN go investigate."
So my group ran into pockets of 3-4 encounters each, then had time to re-group and re-stealth as they prevented anyone from escaping the combat, thus preventing a general alarm.
EDIT: So in short, every time the party had a fight, I rolled Perception for the surrounding rooms, and those that succeeded indeed came to see what was happening. It never became a wholesale "general alarm" because no one ever got away.
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There are a few things you should consider. The monsters, even if they are alarmed, aren't going to know exactly where the PCs are (only the GM does). And don't forget that monsters in adjacent rooms exist and have their own turns during rounds. They can make perception checks as free actions just like any other character. The check to hear the sound of battle is -10, and it's a +1 for every 10 feet. In normal conditions, this means battle can be heard from 100 feet away without a check (though my party's paladin might actually miss it with his negative perception mod, hehe). Closed doors make it a bit harder (+5), walls add +10 per foot of thickness. Make sure your players are aware of these rules, too.
That being said, if the alarm is raised, sure, there are probably some giants on patrol but they still don't know exactly where the PCs are. Let the giants (and other monsters under Jorgenfist) make perception rolls to see if they can hear the PCs fighting. Also don't forget that the fortress scares the crap out of the giants outside in the camps and they refuse to enter. Your PCs may not know this, but that's part of the fun: "Heeeyyy, why aren't all those angry giants who are totally aware of our presence not rushing into this fortress to help out their master?"
There are only a handful of Mokmurian's "finest" inside, and they should be actively searching if the alarm has been raised (and they should be on their guard if the raid on Sandpoint was a failure). That doesn't mean all the giants and other monsters dogpile on at once.
Early on I made the mistake of treating each room in an encounter-filled dungeon as static, with the monsters only appearing once the room had been entered. I have since learned and our encounters have become a lot more dynamic since then. My PCs have also learned that they can't just rush into a dungeon and kill everything anymore, that they need to be careful, because they don't know what could be listening...
EDIT: My PCs also took Conna's advice (once they met up with her) and took the long way around, which they had already cleared because they took the underground entrance into Jorgenfist from the bug cave. However, though the book says this path is safer, the lamias should easily be able to hear the fighting with the trolls in the chamber just before going to the lower level. This is a golden opportunity to surround the PCs (trolls making AoO/pot shots from behind the furs while the lamias come up from behind). Ideally, the lamias will bring their dragons with them too.
Good advice and insight all, thanks.
The biggest problem I foresee is that this is such an elaborate complex that its only a matter of time before the instrusion is detected and Mokmurian is alerted. You can only do so much to hide the signs of a battle (especially with fireballs wall of stone spells flying every which way). Also, they are going to start to notice comrades just straight up missing. At that point Mokmurian can take charge and really make it tough on the heroes and/or easily escape. What kind of realistic timeframe are we talking about for the heroes to infiltrate the fortress and make their way down to Mokmurian (assuming they are reasonably stealthy and manage to surgically take out threats as they go)? How have other groups treated resting in the midst of this?
On another topic: Lucrecia the Lamia from the last book has already escaped twice from the party and is still at large. The PC's absolutely hate this villain and are dreading her return (she killed the PC Paladin). I'm serious, about half the players conversations and strategy talks revolves around dealing her (either looking for and/or how to kill her). I'm not sure when or where I'll insert her again. I'm considering actually leveling her up in order to make her more of a threat when she re-appears. Thoughts?
Don't have her be in Jorgenfist. That would be too... expected. Instead, you could have her follow the PCs into the Runeforge afterward and attack them there when they have just faced a nasty battle.
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My group is in the midst of their 3rd assault on Jorgenfist. Mokmurian is doomed - he just doesn't know it yet. I'll walk through my pc's tactics and how I've had the giant's react - might be helpful.
PCs: wizard, cleric, fighter, bard. All 12th level, though next xp award moment (next rest) they will jump to 13. They are exactly on pace with the xp track in the AP.
They have used Windwalk extensively - combined with invisibility to access the courtyard area of Jorgenfist. Fly in, land somewhere inconspicuous (reform to solid for 5 rounds) and proceed.
My group did some flyovers first and were drawn to the black tower - they assumed that Mokmurian (who they had learned about from a Giant prisoner) would be in a Thassilonian ruin. So they entered the tower mostly unnoticed by the giants, etc. above ground. Their light drew the black monk up when the group opened the trap door. His breath weapon really pissed them off, especially the cleric who used Heal to whack the monk hard. He didn't go down but didn't have much left either. He was forced to flee the tower and call for his harpy minions. This lead to the harpies and just about everyone else converging on the tower in waves.
My group does not do much stealth at least combat-wise - they never use silence. I depart from the AP most of the time - I never follow "X stays in their room" tactics - I think they're stupid. Example: It seemed foolish to me that the Frost Giants, freshly allied with Mokmurian would stay in their room while their new allies were slaughtered. I don't normally force monsters to make perception rolls to hear combat in the area's adjacent to them. If you've ever seen or been involved with fighting, it is simply not quiet. It's like saying the frat house next door had a kegger and you never noticed. So when fighting starts, I have nearby enemies respond according - prep for combat, move in the general direction, etc. The secret is to have the groups come in waves and turn the spigot off if the pc's are getting overwhelmed.
Also, Mokmurian used Sending to keep in touch with Teraktinus on approach to Sandpoint so I see no reason he would stop after the attack. Ergo when Teraktinus and Longtooth don't answer in the ensuing days, he knows something has gone wrong. My view: Jorgenfist is on alert and has been since 3-4 days after the attack on Sandpoint.
My group fought waves of giants, mammoths and bears - some giants from the towers drew out the mammoths from their stables and Ember. The Frost Giants joined in too. Before Galenmir could join, they teleported out. They established a base camp in the nearby mountains where they could observe the fortress, albeit from a distance.
They jumped a level after the first attack and the wizard added a spell (name eludes me) which lets him mark a spot and tag his allies and then teleport all of them back to it as a swift action. They again used windwalk to fly to the ground level of Jorgenfist - they of course had seen the pit but never saw giants come in or out of it and assumed based on the corpses it was a waste area. Overnight, Mokmurian had moved Cinderma and the Runeslaves from the watch tower to the main fortress. (My group just ignored the tower - this way they still get the xp!) Cinderma has See Invisibility (Taiga giant ability) so she sees the group and engages. She also calls out to Galenmir and he and the pit guardians run up the ramp and join in the fight, as well as some tower guards (replaced overnight from Mokmurian's clan.) Most die quickly, two flee back underground. [My group defeated the giants at Sandpoint with no giants escaping alive - except the one they interrogated. Given they knew there was a giant army and had no citizens to rescue it seemed entirely reasonable to let them order giant-bane weapons. The dwarven fighter can kill one stone giant a round by himself.]
The pc's pursue the fleeing giants, realizing only now there are caverns below and encounter Conna. She has sent the fleeing giants to rally the ogres and armory giants to the barracks. She allies with the pc's and sends them toward the Lamia's (who she hates) hoping it will save the giants. (This plan fails.) The group takes out Lokansir (he flees into the dirt) and then quickly kills the dragons. The lamia's use the dragon fight to run through their spell prep and then engage. One is trapped by the pc's and killed. The other flees to the south, alerting the trolls and joining the giants in the barracks (with Enga.) When the pc's pursue, a massive battle erupts at the "crossroads" before the Library Tunnel with the Lamia-Enga-ogre-giant group on one side and the Trolls on the other. It's some ferocious fighting but the cleric's healing ability is just too much for the monsters. The group is just about tapped on spells and healing so they loot the corpses and teleport back to base.
Next day, Mokmurian has no choice but to move his old clan (what's left of it) into the fortress - though they stay above ground. Conna joins them, whispering about taboo and how Mokmurian has found a silent and elusive enemy he cannot defeat. (The pc's have left few survivors so there is little information about them available to the rank and file.) Mokmurian also takes several of the Stone Giant dead and makes them Runeslaves - he sets these and Lokansir (recovered) to guard the first dungeon level. (He is not ready to have his living soldiers see how they might become Runeslaves - it was okay to do to the brutish Hill Giants, but to one of the People? Not good for already tenuous morale.)
The pc's bypass all that by again Windwalking directly into the pit. These rooms are largely abandoned now but they quickly defeat Lokansir and 5 stone giant runeslaves at the troll lair. They then proceed to the library level. The Chamber of Reduction gives them fits- they failed some saves, used hero points to make others. I replaced the 1 HG runeslave with 2 SG runeslaves - Mokmurian has an artifact - he should use it. Just as they are finishing off the giants, the forgefiend appears and catches all but the fighter in his searing spew (I love that name!) They all fail their saves (amazingly!) and boy do they start to freak out then. The wizard creates a pit and the forgefiend fails its save and falls in. It doesn't want to deal with that and it flees into the rock. That's where we ended last.
One last tactical observation - the first dungeon level and the Library level are separated by several hundred feet of rock. Unless magic is used, Mokmurian (if in his lair) cannot tactically join or affect combat in the first dungeon level. Conventional travel to and from the Library will take many minutes. So there should be no chance Mokmurian can join a fight there, at least initially. You can place Mokmurian there either initially (if you want to up the difficulty level) or in response to an attack by the pc's. I considered that but decided that after the first assualt he was unwilling to appear weak by dwelling on the first level - he had Galenmir there to handle it. And after the second attack, his strongest minions were on the Library level and best suited to fight there. I may have him join the golem or headless lord and retreat to his chambers.
As for Lucretia, I have the same challenge. I had her waiting at the Storval Stairs with the hill giants but my group completely bypassed it via Windwalk. I think I'll have her show up in Sandpoint, trying to kill Xaliasa before he spills the beans about Runeforge - and give her one last shot at the pc's.
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So how has everyone handled it when the group goes through the bug cave, finds the secret door, and eventually stumbles into Jorgenfist's basement?
There's no map for anything between the bug cave and the kobold barbarian's quarters, yet the adventure says it's a maze with lots of little encounters, with only the red caps being tough enough to be a real threat.
My group went in, and I had them encounter the red caps after being in there for an hour or so. I've told them that the cave seems to slope upwards sometimes, which makes sense, since they were significantly below Jorgenfist's ground level when they started, and they said they're following the maze in a general upward direction when possible.
I thought for sure they'd keep one of the red caps alive to interrogate, and I'd just have that one cut a deal to show them the way to the giants' underground "domain" in order to save its own life. But much to my surprise, they just went ahead and killed them all without taking a prisoner, for once.
They've got a ranger with good tracking skills (and underground as a favored terrain), so I figure they won't get too lost, but I'm wondering how to handle the maze down there before they get under Jorgenfist. I'll probably just hand wave it, but mention that they find a single pair of kobold tracks, which stand out for being unusual.
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I figured that the redcap caves are actually smaller than the main tunnel that leads to Enga's room. The redcaps are Small, so their tunnels would reflect that. The main thoroughfare, however, is probably at least Medium, so the giants can go down it, even though they'd be uncomfortable at the tight quarters. So, in my estimation, the branching corridors are only there should the PCs make too many forays in and out of Jorgenfist this way.