Do your players get some kind a bonus when rolling hps at each level? If so work out roughly what kind of a mathematical advantage that is and add it to all the enemies hps. So if your players get to reroll 1's do that for the enemies or give them, say 60% of max hps. If its some method where you and the players roll for hps and the players keep the best – well that is probably worth 70% of max possible hps etc.Nope. Hit dice + Constitution Bonus. That's it. And I make them keep their 1s if they roll'em (... by the book).
Ultradan
take a quick gander at the character sheets. Are they rolling really lucky? If so you should still up the monsters a bit to compensate. My experience with hp rolls is that the players don't exactly cheat - but if they roll the dice and I'm not paying any attention and it comes out a 10 - well they draw my attention to that - if its a 1, well then the DM is obviously busy and now was not an appropriate time to roll for hps, she'll be considerate and roll again when I have time for her and am not so clearly harried.
on the same vein - check what their rolled stats are and compare them to point buy. 4d6 drop the lowest is mathematically close to 25 point buy on average but their is one significant variable that makes it better - if you roll significantly below average you get to try again - if you roll above average you keep the character. Over the long run 4d6 drop the lowest is good compared to point buy. Check your players stats and see what they average at. If its quite good compared to 25 point buy I'd still up the bad guys to compensate.
Did the player get to choose classes and prestige classes from non core books? If so then, at a minimum, rebuy the bad guys feats and spell choices to take these books into account.Hmmm. Maybe you've got something there. I told my players that whatever is in the books is fine with me (hell, I can't keep track of all those new classes and feats). Maybe I should go back to core rule book classes.
But then, there's still that pesky sorcerer with his (seemingly) unlimited number for fireballs...
Ultradan
Can you give me more details on what the problem is and how your players are pulling it off. Somethings odd here. Age of Worms is a brutal AP. If your hardcore on their stats and one of them had the luck of the gods and got an 18 while most are very much mere mortals (lots of 12-14s) and your hardcore on their hps and they have about average I have a hard time understanding how your players are crushing the adventure path.
It does not even seem like your problem is so much with the non-core stuff. Your complaining that 10th level sorcerers have lots of fireballs - which is true, they do. But that just should not be enough with this AP at this level to make much of a difference. Did they just blow through an encounter and this is more a rant then a real problem? (if my players made Ilthane go down like a chump I'd be really pissed - but its easy for the DM to screw up a dragon and have them go out with a wimper).
You say you have to give the bad guys magic to compensate - at most magic potions (oil of greater magic weapon +5 or greater magic fang +5)and some swapping around with feats should cover this to a great extent. Yes the PCs can have great ACs but Age of Worms should be able to handle even that with only a little bit of DM input (as I mentioned before - power attack won't work with high AC players).
Except in a few extreme cases (chain wielding half-giant frenzied berserker) having access to extra books is maybe the equivalent of a +1 level adjustment. This AP should be able to handle that most of the time and still be very tough.
So yeah - more details please because this does not make sense to me.
I just had a thought, as characters get to higher levels it may not always be good to just keep on doing the same thing as before, only against stronger foes. High level PCs need to move into management.
At first, our PCs are the ones being recruited in the taverns, and slogging through the mud and blood killing bad guys and foiling plots. But, as they gain in power, they should gain the power! To me this means making more money with less risk, and not having to be the one with his life on the line.
Now, it would be really hard to DM a game where your player's PCs are each managing several groups of NPCs, all at the same time. But, it would be a testament to your DMing skills! Each PC would be sitting behind the big desk in the top office, with the goal being to bring about the completion of adventures by other NPCs and PCs (e.g. by manipulation, diplomacy, and brokering deals). When success is finally woven together at the end, the high level PC gets a big heap of capital gain. And, the DM gets the quiet satisfaction of simulating the nature of reality.
The dynamics of the thing would be crazy hard, but the original problem of creating challenging adventures for over-magic'ed players would fade away, and be replaced by coordinating several average level adventures being run by remote-control. You just might find the PCs lending out their magic items, a little here, and a little there, to help along the means to their ends. This will spread out all the magic items and wealth, to make specific encounters more *normal*, and melt that snowball of yours while keeping the power level high.
Methuselahesque...
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Hi guys (and gals),
It seems that the PCs get tougher and tougher as they gain more levels. I know, that's the point, but hear me out... As they get tougher, with more hit dice, spells and magic weapons, you (as a DM), must counter this effect by throwing more and more powerful NPCs at your party.
Now it gets to a point where you MUST give your NPCs some type of magical stuff of their own to even have a chance to hit your PCs. The problem is, whith the PCs winning mostly every battle, they end up with an incredible amount of magical equipment, which they either keep for them selves, or end up selling to get more powerful items, or even make their own.
And by the time they reach higher levels (say above 10th), the PC party is nearly indestructable unless, of course, you throw even tougher bad guys with more powerful magical equipement. And what started as a snowball is now a full grown avalanch that's out of control.
Have any of you found a way to counter the snowball effect? What are your thoughts on this?
Ultradan
OH YES I HAVE!
I haven't read through this thread but I'd love to share my 2 coppers of DM advice on treasure. I NEVER have this problem anymore yet my players always have appropriate treasure to their level.
One, from the very beginning be stingy with treasure. If they start at 1st level they don't have much. Don't give 'em much more until you're ready to give 'em tougher encounters. LET THEM CATCH UP TO YOU!
Now, one thing you can do is make it impossible for the PCs to find a buyer for much of the weapons and such they take off the orcs' bodies. Pretty soon they'll start leaving things behind. If you do this, don't let the PCs' decision to leave 4 short swords, short bows, daggers and orc crafted leather armor come back to haunt them later.
Next, give the BBEG evil aligned magical weapons. And, at later levels, OCCASSIONALLY have one of the NPCs destroy their stuff as they fall or have one grab-and-go "teleport." Just don't overdo it.
Also, give them treasure they must appraise or get appraised by professionals and can't use as adventurers. Vases, tapestries, ancient treatises, etc. Don't tell the PCs they find 400 gp of gems. Tell them they find objects d'art and it'll cost 100 (depending on PC level) to get it appraised. You can still segue these parts very quickly; it takes little or no time.
Never arbitrarily award treasure because it's suppose to come with a certain CR encounter -- I mean NEVER! Whenever you level them up, just do an equipment list audit to see where they are and make sure they have appropriate equipment to take on the stuff you throw at them.
And finally, just because a character has a favored weapon, or the PCs could really use a certain item -- unless there's a good reason to include it in there -- don't. Along the same lines, just because there's 5 players doesn't mean you have to make the treasure divisible by 5.
-W. E. Ray
There are two different solutions: slow the characters' advancement and have the foes fight smarter.
First, you should closely follow the treasure guidelines regarding the treasure they receive (on average). A large number of NPC encounters will quickly provide more treasure than recommended, unless balanced with other encounters with low or no treasure. You could even run a campaign where you halve all XP and treasure rewards, but this just delays the characters' advancement.
Second, instead of giving the foes the characters encounter better equipment (which will end up in the characters' hands), give them a better combat plan. Disabling, entangling, grapples, touch attacks, trip attacks, etc. all make the foes more effective without increasing the characters' power level when they are defeated. Fighting from a prepared position, using hit-and-run and/or sniper tactics, attempting to maximize strengths and minimize weakneses; these should be things you should consider when designing encounters. The APs are good examples of this. Also, if the characters are tricked out with classes/feats/spells from the various splat-books, then some of the foes they face should be, too.
…have the foes fight smarter.
Very wise advice... If done well, an adventuring party will very rarely run into an encounter more dangerous to them than another adventuring party. Smart opponents can really make the PC’s life difficult and using tactics (especially unusual ones) can really cause the players (therefore the PC’s) fits adapting to changed circumstances. Monsters (humanoid or not) that don’t always fight to the death, but run to heal and hunt-for-revenge later are much more difficult for a party to deal with (on multiple levels).
I want to address something. I should warn you all, I've had some bad personal experience with it, so my post will probably read more venomous than it should.
I have seen many a DM spout the mantra "must challenge the players." That is a horrible way to look at things. Instead try to think along the lines of "must present challenges appropriate to the group."
I know, it is a small change. But it is an important one.
Everyone has good days, and bad days. Players, characters, DMs, everyone.
When all of the players are having a good day - strategy is working well, dice are rolling good, etc. - the party will appear more powerful than it really is. And if you adjust to that level, when the players all have a bad day together, it will turn into a TPK.
I have two anecdotes to illustrate:
First, it was a White Wolf game. The GM has some great storytelling abilities, but is sorely lacking in the mechanics department. He also spouts "must challenge the PC's." Due to this, I designed a tough PC. But I don't want to make him a combat monster because that will start an arms race with the GM. I decide that his primary combat will be using two Desert Eagles. If you aren't familiar with the system, it is a D10 dice pool system where the more dice roll a specific number or higher, the better you do.
Now, fighting with two DE's already sets the TN at 10. Since it was already max, I took a lot of head shots. (Side note: The GM made a particular house rule that made head shots even sicker. I even protested the ruling and asked him a couple of times if he was sure that is the way he wanted to handle it.)
The first combat we were in, the dice gods loved me. I was rolling at least one 10 on almost all firearms rolls, and averaging two to three a roll.
The GM adjusted for my "power level," and the next session nearly had a TPK when statistics jumped up and bit me on the ass. (I was lucky if I rolled a 10 every three rolls.)
The second is an Exalted game. This is by a good GM, and using random encounters with no adjustments.
One session, the players were working well together. We had a random encounter that we pretty much soared through.
The game took a long hiatus of about 2 months until the next session. The next session we had a similar, but weaker, version of the afore mentioned random encounter. And nearly had a TPK. The only thing that saved us was a particularly powerful NPC we had traveling with us who helped us mop up. (We normally don't have to call on his services.)
The problem was that all of the players weren't "in it." We forgot basic fighting tactics, none of us had our "heads in the game," and even the dice were against us.
Too many players go into a game with the mentality of "I must be better than the DM."
And too many DM's go into a game with the mentality of "I must stretch the characters to their breaking point."
Neither is very good for a game session.
What is wrong with having a particularly underpowered challenge for a group?
I don't mean all the time... But every once in a while let them flex their characters muscles.
Try to think of it from a reality point of view. If your job was continuously just a little bit harder than you could comfortably handle, you would have to be paid extremely well - or be an idiot - to keep doing it.
Hell, if your players are veterans, you can really shake them up with a paltry encounter. Imagine the self inflicted torture a high level group will cause when they take down four average goblins setting up an ambush for the group. They will start thinking the goblins might be an advance scouting party. There must be a larger, meaner, main force nearby since the goblins were far too easy. (When the reality is that the goblins are lost, and were just trying to hide from the group since it was clear they didn't stand a chance.)
Sorry. Rant over. I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.
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Disenchanter wrote: "I have seen many a DM spout the mantra "must challenge the players." That is a horrible way to look at things. Instead try to think along the lines of "must present challenges appropriate to the group."
I don't think it's that horrible -- or, at least, that it "has " to be that horrible. It is good, nay, necessary, in many aspects that the DM knows his or her players' strengths and weaknesses, both for roleplaying and for rules knowledge. I believe that you can both "challenge your players" and, of course, challenge the PCs. Just remember the definition of "challenge"!
As far as different nights go, just follow the rule of averages. And let's bottom line something that you've implied you perhaps don't seem to do -- the DM hides rolls for the sake of fudging! Give a little, take a little when the bell curve snaps.
It's unfortunate you've had some bad experiences, but heck, we've ALL had a few nights over the YEARS of gaming where the fun was disrupted or, Asmodeus forbid, ruined.
BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT THIS THREAD'S ABOUT!
Take the advice in my earlier post about managing fairly but strictly the gold and magic equipment your PCs earn.
-W. E. Ray
I have seen many a DM spout the mantra "must challenge the players." That is a horrible way to look at things.
BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT THIS THREAD'S ABOUT!
Instead try to think along the lines of "must present challenges appropriate to the group."
That is what this thread is about, as well as trying to mitigate the dangers of characters gaining too much wealth when they defeat said challenges. In D&D (and 3.5 in particular with the power-creep from the supplements) it's easy for mid-level PCs to become more powerful than recommended and end up with every combat being either a cake-walk or a TPK/near-TPK.
One of the biggest unbalancing factors is too much wealth, which can create a vicious cycle as the DM has to provide better equipment to the enemies to compete, which ends up in the PCs' hands after the fight, rinse-repeat. Another unbalancing factor is a failure to stretch the PCs tactically. The system is designed so that the PCs will win most straight-up fights with a CR of party level to party level + 3 and a CR party level + 4 should be close. The problem with using higher CR encounters is more XP and more wealth for the PCs, fueling more rapid advancement, and greater risk of character death or TPK. Having lower CR encounters using clever tactics keeps things challenging without accelerating PC advancement or greatly increasing the risk of of death/TPK.
First of all, let me voice a little agreement with Disenchanter. I've always been of the opinion that, just because you're 10th level, that doesn't automatically mean that you no longer encounter goblins unless they have class levels. Nope, they're still out there doing goblin things, and you still are likely to run into them. And they may well still attack you, since, unlike in WoW or other games, creatures don't have their levels boldly displayed for all to contemplate, so the goblins don't necessarily know how strong the group is (unless the gear is really shiny).
Now, back to encounters meant to challenge the party. Why not just give the NPCs some bonuses? Have a fighter BBEG? Give him +4 Str and Con. Max his hit points, perhaps. Not from magic or anything. Just change the numbers. Makes him stronger, the party can't get those bonuses, and they get a challenge. If you really need to explain it to yourself (the party isn't going to know if you don't tell them), say it's a boon from the gods or some such.
If the point is about having fun from overcoming challenges, why not just throw certain elements of the RAW out the door when it stops providing challenges? You've entered into an "unusual" situation, which calls for "unusual" methods. When the situation returns to "normal," so can your practices.
The only caution I lend here is that you don't get into the mode of altering all enemies to negate your player's abilities, because that defeats the whole purpose of the game.
If the point is about having fun from overcoming challenges, why not just throw certain elements of the RAW out the door when it stops providing challenges? You've entered into an "unusual" situation, which calls for "unusual" methods. When the situation returns to "normal," so can your practices.
The problem with throwing out the RAW (as opposed to expanding the RAW to cover new ground) lies in arbitrariness. The whims of the DM become more important than the abilities and actions of the PCs (as defined by the rules). Instead the DM should use the RAW (Unholy Toughness to grant more hp, one level of barbarian to gain Rage, potions of aid and divine favor, etc.) to improve the opposition.
99% of the time I agree, and I especially agree about the dangers of taking that route. However, if the group/DM is mature enough, I think it can be done sparingly without much consequence. (Also notice that I only said "certain elements" of the RAW- ignoring all of it would result in no common foundation on which to play)
Raising levels and CR affects treasure and XP. It gets into a cycle that most of us are very familiar with- trying to up the challenge by pure RAW sometimes only levels and equips the PCs faster. If you keep their XP or treasure awards the same for a CR X encounter and a CR+2 encounter, you've already derivated a little from the RAW. It's just a question of how much farther you want to go. (Not really that much different than the suggestion to grant Unholy Toughness to, I presume, undead who don't normally have it; which, by the way, I like the thought of!)
So, if you've got a BBEG and want him to be a challenge, give an unaccounted for +4 to Str and or Con, or something like that. Maybe a cool special attack that you just made up. If you don't go overboard with it and everyone has fun, what's the harm?
So, if you've got a BBEG and want him to be a challenge, give an unaccounted for +4 to Str and or Con, or something like that. Maybe a cool special attack that you just made up. If you don't go overboard with it and everyone has fun, what's the harm?
What I was advocating was to design and run the encounters smarter, not give them bonuses that should raise the CR and ignore it for reward purposes. Don't give them bonus ability points, give them ability-boost potions (or other one-shot items) as part of their treasure/gear; if the party is good/lucky enough to get the drop on them so they can't take one or two rounds to prepare/buff, then they deserve the extra items. Don't give them extra abilities, run them so as to maximize the usefulness of the abilities they already have. Optimize class choices (where applicable), feat selection, and skill distribution for the encounter. If you're going to run a group, come up with a coherent plan that takes advantage of the location, emphasises teamwork, and cramps the PCs (using cover and higher ground; disarmimg the main melee combatant or just keeping him out of melee range; blinding, entangling, grappling, or tripping followed by a sneak attack; disabling spells if there's a spellcaster). If you do it right, you can put the party up against a group that's total CR of party level + 2 and hand them their heads, unless you have a group of combat monsters who have their tactics and teamwork down pat.
Of course, if you do have such a group, your work is cut out for you! In that case, you may have to enlist help in designing challenging combat encounters or change the emphasis of the campaign to include more intrigue, character interaction, and non-combat encounters. Save the fights for key points of the plot. After all, a bard who wins a Perform (Sing) or Perform (Musical Instrument) contest earns experience for "defeating" his opponent, too...
Well, now that we are all playing 3.5; i have a problem with scale. it used to be that a +3 weapon was pretty good, even in the teen levels; there were very few weapons better; maybe a couple +4 and then the +5 holy sword and maybe a +6 unique something. Now in this current game; a +6 weapon; while still good; just doesnt have the impact it used to have; heck, a +10 weapon is more like the +3 weapon from the old days; I am having a hard time trying to adjust to the scale of the game now with all these greater than 30 armor classes and stuff like that that it perhaps exacerbates the snowball effect. Take gauntlets of strength; what bonus should they have, are they just a str buff or higher str buff from a specialist like +4 or +6 which seems to be a level 5 to 7 items nowadays; or if making gauntlets of ogre power and looking at the +10 to +14 str an ogre gets; is this the target and if so; how does anyone make something with that bonus; to me the scale of the game is so out of wack that the ordinary snowball effect that we had a handle on my having an idea of what items should go with what level toons that this snowball effect is a real problem. Take monsters for instance; why hasn't one of these ac 50 mobs with all kinds of hit dice and powers taken over the world or at least depopulated it; are they just lazy; if so many of these creatures existed on the prime material plane next to humans in any real ecology; well, humans would be extinct or slaves or the sense of scale of how many heroes are around to battle these mobs has to be adjusted; and then you think; well, to get to the level to battle those mobs there had to be a lot more mobs of just lesser power level that could still wreck the world; sheesh; it really gets out of hand.
Valegrim, I think you need to look through the DMG again. +5 weapons are still really freaking awesome, and also pretty rare. Additionally, +10 is unheard of in anything but the most high powered epic games, which are apparently exceedingly rare by all accounts.
Also, the Strength bonuses on the items you listed is out of whack, too. The party is likely to start getting +2 item boosters somewhere in the vicinity of level 5, but it's probably going to be level 10-12 before they get into +4, and certainly close to level 15 or higher before they hit +6. It's all about the extra benefit you get (which proceeds in a linear fashion) relative to the extra cash you have to give up (which is exponential).
If you find that +5 weapons are just lacking the "oomph" they used to have, or that there is a +10 anything floating around regularly in your party, or even if it's average that your players have +4 ability boosters by level 7 or so, then something may need re-examination in your games (I mean, there's nothing wrong with that type of game, if that's what you want, but it doesn't sound like that's what you want).
hehe there are none of those in my games, but i have seen them in other peeps games, but really when you have a +20 to hit from your class and +6 for strength and +something from something else; a plus 3 or 4 weapon is pretty lame.
I just had a thought, as characters get to higher levels it may not always be good to just keep on doing the same thing as before, only against stronger foes. High level PCs need to move into management.
At first, our PCs are the ones being recruited in the taverns, and slogging through the mud and blood killing bad guys and foiling plots. But, as they gain in power, they should gain the power! To me this means making more money with less risk, and not having to be the one with his life on the line.
Now, it would be really hard to DM a game where your player's PCs are each managing several groups of NPCs, all at the same time. But, it would be a testament to your DMing skills! Each PC would be sitting behind the big desk in the top office, with the goal being to bring about the completion of adventures by other NPCs and PCs (e.g. by manipulation, diplomacy, and brokering deals). When success is finally woven together at the end, the high level PC gets a big heap of capital gain. And, the DM gets the quiet satisfaction of simulating the nature of reality.
The dynamics of the thing would be crazy hard, but the original problem of creating challenging adventures for over-magic'ed players would fade away, and be replaced by coordinating several average level adventures being run by remote-control. You just might find the PCs lending out their magic items, a little here, and a little there, to help along the means to their ends. This will spread out all the magic items and wealth, to make specific encounters more *normal*, and melt that snowball of yours while keeping the power level high.
Methuselahesque...
So, it seems as if you are saying PCs should get promoted to CEO. Well, if everyone else gets killed, and the PC is the only person left for the job, then it could work out.
Hi guys (and gals),
Have any of you found a way to counter the snowball effect? What are your thoughts on this?
Ultradan
I have found (as a DM) that this problem is a correctable one. If the PCs are acquiring too much loot, you have a number of options that can rectify the situation.
First off, perhaps they are fighting the wrong types of enemies. What I mean is, perhaps the enemies they are fighting (the ones that have been heavily equipped in order to compete with the PCs), are too low level. Raise the level of the PC's enemies, and reduce the amout of equipment needed to keep them competitive. Also, utilize your Monster Manual (the one you dropped $30 bucks on), to engineer encounters with "low treasure" monsters. Things like Owlbears, Displacer Beasts, Frost Worms, etc put up an awesome fight, and don't always have to have a lair/treasure hoard within the PCs immediate area.
This pretty much hits the nail on the head for me. I've had DM's that like to especially run us up against monsters with no gear, and it dramatically alters the "snowball effect". I use it in Ravenloft a lot too. I've had 12th level characters toting around a single +1 weapon and some masterwork armor before, but the setting calls for that to an extent.
I can only add that if you like using humanoids with class levels, try to make them with more abilities, less gear. Easier said than done, I know, but it pays off. Give your enemies a couple levels of Ranger with the dominant party's race being the Favored Enemy, then build from there; Improved Favored Enemy(CW), Favored Power Attack(CW), Knowledge Devotion(CC), etc. Couple of levels of fighter for some quick feats couldn't hurt either. Don't be afraid to turn the player's tricks and tactics against them, especially if they're fighting reasonably intelligent enemies.