WotC can kiss my &%%. Paizo, you suck too. I will NOT be following this new Pathfinder crap, I don't care who is writing it.
Dragon and Dungeon are institutions, for Pelor's sake!!! How could you all do this?
I will keep playing D&D, but I will not buy WotC products again, nor will I buy anything from Paizo.
Over-reaction on my part? Some will say yes, that's their opinion, but this is just horrible.
This is a sad day.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Paizo has licensed the right to publish Dragon and Dungeon from Wizards of the Coast since 2002. The decision whether or not to renew that license did not rest with Paizo. We're doing our best to offer similar content to our existing customers in a variety of ways, including Pathfinder and the new GameMastery Modules series.
We hope you'll give them a look, but continuing to publish Dragon and Dungeon was not an option that was available to Paizo.
--Erik
I really don't think Paizo is at fault - WotC always had control of the license, and could give it to whomever they wanted. Now they want it back, for whatever reason, and for whatever purpose.
I am willing to give Pathfinder a chance, but I think this is sad news indeed.
Does WotC intend to make Dragon and Dungeon into online magazines ala Pyramid? Or are they just killing the brands? If the latter, I think that is an incredibly stupid and short-sighted decision - but this is WotC we're talking about, so who knows?
Believe me, I've also posted on the WotC boards, _and_ I've sent an email directly to their customer service. It won't change anything I'm sure, but I want them to know that their move will make some (many?) of us unhappy.
In the end, thought, y'all will keep buying their products, and they won't care. Not me, I'm out.
And exactly why doesn't Paizo continue to produce Dragon & Dungeon magazine, without support from WotC but with a licence? I mean, the only reason would be that the magazines aren't making profit, right?
Dragon and Dungeon are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast and we published them under license. As license-holder, WotC has chosen a new direction for the brand and we support their decision. We're excited to move forward with new products and will provide the D&D community with the same quality of product they've come to expect from Paizo.
As to why we wouldn't, then, just create our own magazines, we spent a great deal of time debating and studying this option and, in the end, it didn't make sense. Dragon and Dungeon had built-in distribution, customers, subscribers, and were firmly entrenched in the periodicals market. Starting a new magazine would require a great deal of monetary investment (read: millions of dollars) and would require Paizo to rebuild everything Dragon and Dungeon had in place for over 30 years. Since we have already built a highly successful channel into the book and hobby markets with our accessories, board games, and book products, it made more sense to sell Pathfinder as a book and to sell it into those already established locations.
So, if I understand it correctly, Pathfinder will be just like a big Dungeon magazine, except it will be called Pathfinder. Because if that's the case than I'm all for it. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Ultradan
So, if I understand it correctly, Pathfinder will be just like a big Dungeon magazine, except it will be called Pathfinder. Because if that's the case than I'm all for it. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Ultradan
You aren't far from the truth.
You aren't far from the truth.So, if I understand it correctly, Pathfinder will be just like a big Dungeon magazine, except it will be called Pathfinder. Because if that's the case than I'm all for it. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Ultradan
I'm salivating already...
...
(oh, it's almost supper time...)
Ultradan
the main difference being that there will only be 1 adventure per issue, and a little extra support type stuff that would normaly be put into dragon instead of dungeon if I am reading the pathfinder description correctly.
the main difference being that there will only be 1 adventure per issue, and a little extra support type stuff that would normaly be put into dragon instead of dungeon if I am reading the pathfinder description correctly.
It's better to dig out the caps lock key and say one MASSIVE adventure. Each volume of Pathfinder will level PCs two or three times and they'll get to 15th level or beyond in six volumes. The support material will all be OGL--which means tons of new open content monsters and the potential for open content feats etc.--and we'll make player handouts and other interesting tidbits available for download online to support your game. Not too mention that we'll run two six-volume arcs every year which means more APs in a year!
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Creative Director
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the main difference being that there will only be 1 adventure per issue, and a little extra support type stuff that would normaly be put into dragon instead of dungeon if I am reading the pathfinder description correctly.
I did a little estimation. Counting the Adventure Path material in Dragon and Dungeon over the course of a year, Savage Tide would clock in at about 450 pages. The Adventure Path material in Pathfinder over a year will be closer to 1,152 pages. And you'll get 2 Adventure Paths instead of 1.
So no more little side-quests?...
Ultradan
I'm looking forward to the new books, but I feel kicked in the gut by WotC. I'll miss Dungeon terribly, and I'll miss the official content in the Paizo adventures: warlocks, Spell Compendium spells, non-OGL monsters, etc. Considering every WotC monster book I bought was a direct reaction to seeing creatures used in Dungeon adventures, I think it's a short-sighted move on their part. Beyond that, I have little to no respect for WotC adventures, so I likely won't be looking to their new lines either. We'll see. It's the end of an era, and I feel sad.
~Qualidar~
So no more little side-quests?...
Ultradan
That seems to be the worst of it-there will be one lovingly-crafted adventure per month-where before there were 4-5. The sucessive scenarios will be linked in a well-written, fully supported Path, but the oddball non-AP adventures, the variety in levels (even now, low/middle/high are available monthly), the Side Treks and so on will be mostly gone. As a DM and one who has formed his own 'Adventure Paths' from countless issues of Dungeon-it's a big letdown... :(
//holds hat in hand, scuffs floor with feet, hold out flowers.
I want to apologise to Paizo for my words at the start of this post. I understand that it's not their fault, this is about WotC*$!. I am intrigued by Pathfinder, and i won't turn my back on Paizo. I was angry and hurt.
BUT I STILL HATE WotC!!!
(James, Erik, et al, I hope you didn't take my vitriol personally. I really do like you guys, and hope you'll take me back. ;-) )
BUT I STILL HATE WotC!!!
//holds hat in hand, scuffs floor with feet, hold out flowers.
I want to apologise to Paizo for my words at the start of this post. I understand that it's not their fault, this is about WotC*$!. I am intrigued by Pathfinder, and i won't turn my back on Paizo. I was angry and hurt.
BUT I STILL HATE WotC!!!
(James, Erik, et al, I hope you didn't take my vitriol personally. I really do like you guys, and hope you'll take me back. ;-) )
BUT I STILL HATE WotC!!!
::looks Deimodius in eyes searchingly...then pulls him into a big Mafia-style bear hug::
Good to have you back with us! I for one am nothing but excited about the amazing stuff Paizo will be offering come August. Dragon and Dungeon will always hold a bitter sweet place in my heart, but I am looking forward to what the future will bring us.
Considering every WotC monster book I bought was a direct reaction to seeing creatures used in Dungeon adventures, I think it's a short-sighted move on their part.
Im gonna chime in with some agreement on this part here.
Lords of Madness, Libris Mortis, Sandstorm, and Stormwrack all sold themselves to me through Dugneon magazine.
I'm sorta extra upset because I recently DLed the submission guidelines and was about to start work on an adventure for Dungeon. It seems like we don't have an outlet for that now.
I also had an idea for a Bazaar of the Bizarre I wanted to submit. :-(
That seems to be the worst of it-there will be one lovingly-crafted adventure per month-where before there were 4-5. The sucessive scenarios will be linked in a well-written, fully supported Path, but the oddball non-AP adventures, the variety in levels (even now, low/middle/high are available monthly), the Side Treks and so on will be mostly gone. As a DM and one who has formed his own 'Adventure Paths' from countless issues of Dungeon-it's a big letdown... :(So no more little side-quests?...
Ultradan
This is true. However, let's just say I've seen some advance stuff on a couple of the adventures (especially #3's) and a lot of these can be broken down into several quests, any of which could be easily yoinked for a quick self-contained session with little adjustment, if that's your flavor. Maybe this is mostly true of the installment I'm writing (but I don't think so), and looking at what I have so far, it could be 10 tightly designed adventures that are linked by a through-line...the adventures in Rise of the Runelords are tremendous, and true-to-form in the brilliant Paizo-AP tradition, they cover such a wide purview of situations, plot arcs, baddies and adventure sites that they really offer a feast to the DM. But in truth you'll probably just want to run the whole thing...cause Erik and James created an AP that is so classic and yet so earth-shatteringly awesome all at the same time, I for one am pumped beyond pumped about it.
I'm biased I know...but I want you all to know...I purposely did not drink any Yerba Mate today so that I could offer as honest and well-reasoned posts as possible.
I'm sorta extra upset because I recently DLed the submission guidelines and was about to start work on an adventure for Dungeon. It seems like we don't have an outlet for that now.
I also had an idea for a Bazaar of the Bizarre I wanted to submit. :-(
I know how you feel Deimodius!!! :-(
I've got two manuscripts in to Dungeon, and over fifteen proposals! Sadness.
But don't lose heart yet! Keep your fingers crossed. I'll bet there is a way to break into contributing to Paizo's future efforts, and anything you wanted to submit to Dungeon and Dragon might still be possible to do under WotC's reign.
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CEO
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That seems to be the worst of it-there will be one lovingly-crafted adventure per month-where before there were 4-5. The sucessive scenarios will be linked in a well-written, fully supported Path, but the oddball non-AP adventures, the variety in levels (even now, low/middle/high are available monthly), the Side Treks and so on will be mostly gone. As a DM and one who has formed his own 'Adventure Paths' from countless issues of Dungeon-it's a big letdown... :(
Those quirky little non-AP adventures will now be seen in our monthly GameMastery adventures. Just take a gander through the adventure descriptions listed there and I think you will see where the rest of the adventures that used to ride along with the AP in Dungeon will be migrating to!
-Lisa
That seems to be the worst of it-there will be one lovingly-crafted adventure per month-where before there were 4-5. The sucessive scenarios will be linked in a well-written, fully supported Path, but the oddball non-AP adventures, the variety in levels (even now, low/middle/high are available monthly), the Side Treks and so on will be mostly gone. As a DM and one who has formed his own 'Adventure Paths' from countless issues of Dungeon-it's a big letdown... :(Those quirky little non-AP adventures will now be seen in our monthly GameMastery adventures. Just take a gander through the adventure descriptions listed there and I think you will see where the rest of the adventures that used to ride along with the AP in Dungeon will be migrating too!
-Lisa
Well said! Gamemastery is going to rock out!
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Those quirky little non-AP adventures will now be seen in our monthly GameMastery adventures. Just take a gander through the adventure descriptions listed there and I think you will see where the rest of the adventures that used to ride along with the AP in Dungeon will be migrating to!-Lisa
Will the GameMastery adventure line have a subscription option with pdfs as well?
That game mastery stuff seems interesting. I just fear that it will be difficult to get in Europe... And, what´s more, the price of Dungeon just can´t be beat, it seems: three adventures for about 3$ each. Those times are over, obviously...
Stefan
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CEO
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Will the GameMastery adventure line have a subscription option with pdfs as well?
Those quirky little non-AP adventures will now be seen in our monthly GameMastery adventures. Just take a gander through the adventure descriptions listed there and I think you will see where the rest of the adventures that used to ride along with the AP in Dungeon will be migrating too!-Lisa
We've talked about it but haven't had the time to implement. But I would guess that it will be a strong possibility considering the outflowing of interest here on the boards today. Stay tuned!
-Lisa
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I'm certainly sad to see these venerable mags go. I think this is a hugh mistake by WOTC.
As much as the net provides, an on-line WOTC newsletter cannot replace hard copy.
I don't have a computer in the kitchen/bathroom/rec room/neighbourhood restaurant. So the time spent in these places, where once I read the mags, will be spent reading something else.
If on-line is the way to go and hard copies are a dead medium, then why is WOTC still churning out sourcebooks?
I used to read TV Guide in the check-out line every week, and more often than not would buy a copy. Since they stopped publication (in Canada) and went to an on-line version, I've never once looked at it--nor am I likely to. I don't have a computer in the check-out line or in my living room...
If this was one of the exciting new developments you were talking about, Erik, then you can cram it with walnuts.
Open Gaming License, allows certain things from D&D to be published for free, as seen on the SRD (www.d20srd.org).
I just walked back into D&D last year, strolled into this place a wee month ago. I used to collect Dragon and still have a stack stuffed away in my attic.
Clearly WotC is behaving like a corporation.
I'm just absolutely stunned.
Well, I always made my own campaign material anyway, no reason to stop now.
Pathfinder? hmmmmm.
When does Pathfinder start its next adventure path? (Oh forget it I found out how it works... duh... starting August)
That seems to be the worst of it-there will be one lovingly-crafted adventure per month-where before there were 4-5. The sucessive scenarios will be linked in a well-written, fully supported Path, but the oddball non-AP adventures, the variety in levels (even now, low/middle/high are available monthly), the Side Treks and so on will be mostly gone. As a DM and one who has formed his own 'Adventure Paths' from countless issues of Dungeon-it's a big letdown... :(Those quirky little non-AP adventures will now be seen in our monthly GameMastery adventures. Just take a gander through the adventure descriptions listed there and I think you will see where the rest of the adventures that used to ride along with the AP in Dungeon will be migrating to!
-Lisa
Are you planning on accepting submission ideas for this line, Lisa? Or is it going to be the sort of thing that only people asked by Paizo will get to write these?
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I will give Pathfinder ashot since I am paid up, but worry about the lack of good, usable material now that the liscense is gone. I see from these boards that Paizo is already looking for Monster submissions, they're going to need them. I am not crazy about the price (why the "perfect binding", give me a mag I can throw on the floor), or the lack of 3 full adventures. But, I will give it a shot because Paizo, to this point, has done a damn fine job of listening to its clientele.
WOTC on the other hand obviously has not. Brisk sales, 30 year tradition, rabid fanbase....let's cancel it. Oh yeah, and while we're at it, lets put one little link on our website that leads to a one page explanation. No preview of "web-based material", no regret, nothing. Great job, you've really got your finger on the pulse of your readers. I will never subscribe to online only content. My eyes hurt now just from reading over these boards, let alone a full adventure.
Good luck Paizo. I have loved your work so far and will give you the benefit of the doubt. Your task is not an easy one, however....
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Chief Technical Officer
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Are you planning on accepting submission ideas for this line, Lisa? Or is it going to be the sort of thing that only people asked by Paizo will get to write these?
Look for submission guidelines to be posted in the GameMastery forum in the not-too-distant future.
Well said! Gamemastery is going to rock out!Those quirky little non-AP adventures will now be seen in our monthly GameMastery adventures. Just take a gander through the adventure descriptions listed there and I think you will see where the rest of the adventures that used to ride along with the AP in Dungeon will be migrating too!
-Lisa
Thank you Nick, and Lisa. It's a good thing I have two jobs then, 'cause it ain't cheap what you're going to be doing-but I for one will take maps in color any day, and 12.99 is the new 7.99 anyway...
RoF
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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If this was one of the exciting new developments you were talking about, Erik, then you can cram it with walnuts.
Not sure how to respond to this, but I like walnuts, so we'll go with "thanks!"
Dragon/Dungeon Ending: Not exciting.
Pathfinder: Exciting.
GameMastery Modules: Exciting.
New Paizo Campaign Setting: Exciting.
Planet Stories Classic Fiction Line: Exciting.
You be the judge.
--Erik
This really sucks. I'm pissed at WoTC and not Paizo. My interest in D&D has been dwindling lately and I've been using the Adventure path lately to save time designing.
Pathfinder intrigues me if I can find it in New Zealand I'll buy it or get my American friends to get it for me.
Not renewing the licence for Paizo fair enough I suppose but killing the mags Grrrr. I'm relativly new at this I've only been reading them for just over a decade.
I really don't think Paizo is at fault - WotC always had control of the license, and could give it to whomever they wanted. Now they want it back, for whatever reason, and for whatever purpose.
Gearing up for 4e no doubt!
Any campaign setting NOT published by morons: Exciting
Rimming walnuts: Exciting
Not being under creative restrictions imposed by WotC: Exciting
Another sterling reason to say 'Feck off' to WoTC.I really don't think Paizo is at fault - WotC always had control of the license, and could give it to whomever they wanted. Now they want it back, for whatever reason, and for whatever purpose.Gearing up for 4e no doubt!
Great to see the Irish contribution to inoffensive cursing getting aired on this subject- feck indeed.
My concern is that Hasbro looks at a certain other UK games company well known for it's hard about face into a hard corperate model and says; "that's a great idea, why don't you do that, Wizards"?My prediction is that the OGL may well see it's third party access dwindle as Wizards issues a 4th edition that demands the use of more Wizards merchandise, in an attempt to catch younger players and sell more collectible product, tailoring it for the sensibilities of the upcoming WoW and CCG generations, hence the push to catch college game clubs now, preparing the way for the implementation of the plan in the next few years. The Pen and Paper RPG market has taken a battering these past few years from MMORPGs and needs to redefine itself- Wizards will take this opprotunity to both control that redefinition and insure its domination of the subsequent market.
At least that's what II'd be planning if I were them- remember it's a business folks, and the business of business is to make money and insure future revenues. If the quality slips, then sure, give them the boot, but don't hate Wizards because they took a corperate decision that you don't like.
By the way, you can see from this that my initial anger from other threads has cooled somewhat. All we can do is express our dismay though our market power- it'll be interesting to see how this online Dragon pans out though.
Well in short, for what it's worth, I'd like to say what I told Fatespinner over WoW... I really with this whole Pathfinder thing weren't necessary, that WoTC weren't being so... well... stupid. That said, I trust you people at Paizo to make something good out of it, and I'm looking forward to seeing what comes of this.
Great to see the Irish contribution to inoffensive cursing getting aired on this subject- feck indeed.Thank'ee, Father Ted.
"Now, Father, what do you say to a nioce cup'a tea?"
"FECK OFF, CUP!!"
"FECK! NUNS!!! REVERSE!! REVERSE!!!"
Y'know, were the adventure paths really SO popular?
I had more time for the single adventures in Dungeon ( esp over The Age of Worms - "Part ten - the PC's face Knights of Kyuss and Lepers of Kyuss and Snotmonsters of Kyuss"...god I was SICK of the colour green by the end of all that!!!) and of the two magazines I prefered Dragon.
and US$19.95 = AUS$40+....mmmm..."not happy John!"
Tell you what....I'll take a long hard look at Pathfinder but it better WOW me from the word go....