I'm a teacher and started a D&D club at lunch hour for my students. Guess what...I've been accused of starting a club that promotes violence and is a cult. I'm meeting with the parent (who signed her child's permission form) and my principal on Wednesday. My principal is extremely supportive (especially because he sees kids who were reluctant readers reading books). Anyone else ever have this kind of experience? Personally, I think it's nuts. But I just don't know what to say to this parent if she gets all evangelical on me...any advice would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
WtMD
Not sure how much it would actualy help, but you could show them GreenRonins biblical setting for D&D. I forget what it's called, but shouldn't be too hard to find out if you go to their site.
Hopefuly the parent(s) are just concerned, but rational adults who will see, with a little explenation, that your not teaching their children to murder in the name of satan or any crap like that. Just show them the books, give them a rundown on the type of adventures you were planning on running, and invite them to drop in on a session any time they feel the need. Perhaps even try to get them involved, as it's always good to get parents involved in their children's lives.
Kobold Press
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Personally, I think it's nuts. But I just don't know what to say to this parent if she gets all evangelical on me...any advice would be much appreciated.
Wow, I wish I had an easy answer, but it's tough to calm irrational fears parents have about their children (as I'm sure you know).
Best I can say is, you're doing great work taking time to teach kids more reading and probability through gaming. The fact that your principal is with you must help. Ultimately, it may just be fear of the unknown, and the parent may relax once they sit in on a session or look at the books.
OTOH, some people are zealous and inflexible nutjobs. In that case, I suspect the parent won't make any headway with the rational administrators at your school.
There must be internet resources for this, somewhere.
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Just show them the books, give them a rundown on the type of adventures you were planning on running, and invite them to drop in on a session any time they feel the need. Perhaps even try to get them involved, as it's always good to get parents involved in their children's lives.
These are all great suggestions, and I think the fact that the parent in question has already signed the permission slip indicates that he or she is open to reason. That said, I've had encounters with people (namely my girlfriend's parents) who don't care what you say - they think the game is evil in some way. I showed them the books, pointed out how the misperceptions about the game started, etc. They kind of politely nodded and then told her they still didn't like it once I had left.
Not that I think this will happen in your case, but I just wanted to warn you that there are some people who will not credit what you have to say on the topic if it conflicts with what they've been told by their religious advisor.
EDIT: I wrote a paper on the misperceptions surrounding D&D for graduate school - if you'd like, I can point you in the direction of a few good psychological studies on the effects of RPGs, none of which show any kind of negative effect.
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You might want to take a look at Games Quarterly Magazine, which does regular features on games in education:
http://www.gamesquarterly.net/
You might also want to look at some of the resources that GAMA (the Game Manufacturers' Association) offers:
http://www.gama.org/programs/gie
And if you run into a serious problem, contact GAMA's Industry Watch Committee at iwc@gama.org. Mike Stackpole is a good guy and has been tracking, and responding to, gaming industry disinformation for many years.
All of the above are more in the nature of long-term resources. In the short term, the other advice you've received is pretty good. I'd particularly recommend a short demonstration, perhaps in something like, "The Orc Stole My Pie" (to avoid the moral ambiguities of "Orc and Pie" - http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?otherd20_orcandpie.)
*casts summon theacemu*
I'm sure he has something useful for a supporting argument!
I'm a teacher and started a D&D club at lunch hour for my students. Guess what...I've been accused of starting a club that promotes violence and is a cult. I'm meeting with the parent (who signed her child's permission form) and my principal on Wednesday. My principal is extremely supportive (especially because he sees kids who were reluctant readers reading books). Anyone else ever have this kind of experience? Personally, I think it's nuts. But I just don't know what to say to this parent if she gets all evangelical on me...any advice would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
WtMD
I feel your pain, WtMD. I've taught at three high schools in my teaching career thus far and have had innumerable problems starting D&D clubs...even though tons of kids wanted one. This is a huge problem that evangelical fundamentalists can't seem to let die. I mean these kids are playing Grand Theft Auto (great game!) and watching movies with more bloodshed than most games could conjure up, not to mention the Iraq war, but somehow, this game that teaches math, expands vocabularies, instructs kids on creative problem solving, logic, acting, socializing skills, etc. is the work of the devil. I just threw in the towel at my current school (though the faculty member in charge of clubs and organizations was super sympathetic and helpful, but in the end he was like "you can't say D&D anywhere on official stuff...you can play it but just keep it on the down low" and I was pretty bummed out by it all).
Anyhoo, good luck. I would focus on the fact that the children play good characters facing down evil and trying to make the world a better place, and demons are usually only represented as evil abominations meant to be destroyed.
You might show them Jason Nelson-Brown's bio from the WotC website, too. If the game is being written by "active and committed born-again Christians," then how satanic can it possibly be?
I've taught at three high schools in my teaching career thus far and have had innumerable problems starting D&D clubs...even though tons of kids wanted one.
Chess club sponsor is the closest I could get in six years as a high school teacher in Virginia.
I think you should stress several things when dealing with the parent.
Inherently, D&D is a game were the forces of good face off against the forces of evil. You aren't working for the devil, you're trying to stop him. Show them the core classes. When most people like this see Paladins and Clerics they ease up.
As was stated before, this is a game that encourages, reading, math, flexible thinking and creative problem solving. That is a great set of skills to have for any field these students may enter.
D&D is no more violent than most games on any console or PC. Many of those games contain the same or similar elements as D&D and still more, are completely based on violence. It definately has a smaller body count than a John Woo film or one level of GTA. And becuase it's a group activity it allows for much more socializing than a one player console game.
And it's fun.
Unfortunately, more than likely her mind will already be made up and nothing you can do or say will change it.
Always the optimist,
F2K
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I got a little pamphlet in church several years back that listed the different types of sins and what was the church's official list of sins (Roman Catholic) and playing D&D was listed in there as a sin.
She probably signed the permission slip without knowing or caring what little Billy was doing, but suddenly one of her narrow-minded friends told her how poor lil' Billy was getting corrupted by D&D and now she is on a mission.
My suggestion.
Focus on the positive aspects of the game and compare it to several other extra-curricular activities which are known for keeping kids out of trouble and help to build intellegent people, like Chess clubs, Math Clubs, etc. and expect everything you say to have no effect on her opinion. The danger is when the knee-jerk reaction turns into a "let me get other parents involved to help end this menace to our youth" action. Once someone gets on a high-horse it is really difficult to get them down and people don't like to admit being wrong.
Make sure not to use phrases that place the parent in the position of being wrong like "you may think..". Use phrases like "some of people hear". Tell them how glad you are that they are showing a real concern for their child and that it is your pleasure to help them with any questions they may have.
In a world where 14 year olds are hopping in virtual cars, running over cops, and banging prostitutes to regain health, D&D is a game about good overcoming evil (usually, but they don't need to know about BoVD stuff) and helps kids in all the ways that previous posters have mentioned.
Don't feel too bad if you fail to sway them, they probably already made up their minds anyway.
Good luck and let us know how it goes.
FH
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somehow, this game that teaches math, expands vocabularies, instructs kids on creative problem solving, logic, acting, socializing skills, etc. is the work of the devil.
Nicolas gave you a great deal of amunition in his post. First of all you gotta asure to this mother that the two of you want what is best for her kid. If NOT being a part of the D&D club is what is best then so be it. Deffinately focus on the educational aspects of the game as Nicolas stated above. Tell her that since you started the club you've seen an improvment in her child in these particular areas. What parent DOESN'T their kid to get an education. If this is working then try to go that route.
If in the end you two are unable to reach a compromise...Point out that she did sign the permission slip but that you understand her concerns and that her child would not be allowed to participate in the club. I guess that kinda turns her into the bad guy really.
I've been toying around with the idea of doing a club like this as well. Granted I've got my hands full with Art Club and various other groups etc. Deffinately keep us informed as to how it goes. Don't let one bad apple spoil it for everybody and keep your cool!
By the way are you Elementary, Middle or Highschool? I teach elementary art and have a ton of 5th and 6th grade kids very interested in the Miniatures they see me painting on my lunch or the Dungeon/Dragon magazine I'm reading. This could be a good ting for some of my kids too.
Creative Director
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If I hadn't been introduced to D&D by my 5th grade teacher, and had he not split our class into parties of adventurers and run us all through his homemade dungeon during lunches over the course of the school year, I would probably be working as a data-entry monkey at some insurance company right now rather than on Dungeon magazine.
Which is another way of saying that in my case, D&D in schools ended up being more important to my career than, say, math class.
This has to be one og the things that truly enrages me so I apologize if I rant a little. This may not be a good tact to take with a rational person who just has a few misconceptions but if you end up facing down a bunch of religious nutjobs who think you are a satanist promoting torture and violence you could remind them that Jesus was crucified and left there to die. Or mabye how the people of god went across their corner of the world killing everyone in their way. Or mabye how god killed every firstborn in Egypt. Or mabye how he caused a famine tha killed most of Egypt's population just because of an obstinate ruler. Or mabye how he told some guy (can't remember the name at the moment) to kill his son (pretty much a human sacrifice) just to prove his faith. Or how god suggests that killing people with minor physical deformities is a good idea in the Old Testament. Or how things like the Spanish Inquisition was caused by religous zealots not by people who played an innocent game.
Try to avoid bringing stuff like the BoVD up. Highlight the Paladin although mabye not the cleric. If they are somewhat close-minded Christians the ideas of multiple gods might rankle them a bit. Don't try to deny that yes this game can be a bad influence but so can anything (again, religion and the Spanish Inquisition). I agree that if you talk about rational people who are just worried parents who have been presented with a stereotype they will probably come around.
By the way, in response to what David Sundseth wrote; When you said Mike Stackpole would you be referring to Michael A. Stackpole who has published several Star Wars novels.
This may not be a good tact to take with a rational person who just has a few misconceptions but if you end up facing down a bunch of religious nutjobs who think you are a satanist promoting torture and violence you could...
This is a spectacularly bad idea. If you are dealing with irrational people, attacking their faith isn't going to change their mind - it'll just reinforce their opinion that they're right. At the same time, you will alienate any rational Christians who had until then been supporting you, and any neutral parties who can't possibly side who is perceived as being anti-religion (whereas anti-game is entirely supportable). Basically, if you resort to this sort of thing, you've lost the argument. Better just to accept that that one kid isn't going to be part of the club.
Additionally, most of the examples you've cited are really badly chosen, since there's a lot of context you've ignored that changes the tenor of the passage greatly. However, I have no interest in engaging in a religious flame war, so I'm not going to go into it in more detail.
This is a spectacularly bad idea. If you are dealing with irrational people, attacking their faith isn't going to change their mind - it'll just reinforce their opinion that they're right.
Exactly...I would start with introduction to gaming, main point being something like "it's like Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter but the players decide how the story will go and act it out". If the parent in question thinks Harry Potter/LotR/drama is evil and satanic you can sigh, concentrate on nodding and basically give up the conversation because there is no hope to get that discussion anywhere. Pick your battles, and if it comes to that, you'd better be able to get principals and other parents on your side.
However, if the parent does sound like a person you can discuss with (as opposed to argue) you can continue with stuff Nicolas mentioned above, about math skills, vocabulary, reading, social skills etc. You can invite the parent to come visit a club meeting to see what happens (and more importantly, what does not happen) there.
I would also recommend emphasizing the positive aspects of the game: social skills, math skills, getting used to finding (non-violent) solutions (aka improvising). Showing or telling them that the PCs are the "Good Guys" can backfire, I think - they have to be open to the game at first to listen to this, and if you tell them about paladins and priests, they might be annoyed or even offended.
And, as Fake Healer pointed out, try to take the parents with you, not standing against them. I don´t think that we need to tell you this, but if you tell them that you very much appreciate how they care for their child and its extracurricular activities, thats probably better than trying to tell them head-on that they are wrong - nobody likes to be told that he is wrong. If they say that this is a kind of cult than you probably have no choice but denying this - tell them that it is a game, and invite them to participate so you can prove it. And, also important, stress that it is of course their decision what to do about it - people like having choices, and not being pushed in one direction. One option would be to deny their kid the game, one would be letting it run, and one that they participate to form their own informed opinion.
But be prepared that they won´t listen to you, and that you will lose that argument - some people love their prejudice too dearly to let up.
I would recommed adventures with little violence, only against enemies that won´t listen to anything else - like undead, fiends or the like. Avoid combats against humans etc.
Stefan
Ignorants...
If anyone believes that role-playing games are evil in any way, they should die a slow and horrible death!
This is why I don't get religion.
Ultradan
I, too, like Fake Healer's suggestions. Here are a few of my own.
Focus on being creative. For example, how creative is it to always start an adventure by meeting a guy in a bar? That's old and bland, and parents probably don't even want their children to pretend about drinking alcohol. Look to movies for inspiration (someone commes to vistit Indiana Jones at the school, etc.).
Stay away from very sexual/violent content. In my recent review of Dragon 353, I wrote that I likely wouldn't use Malcanthet because of what she represents, but if I did I would tone it done to her just being a demon of persuassion. Still for a school setting where parents are going to be expecting you to screw up, I would stay away from it completely.
Get the parents involved. It will take a little more work, but type up a recap of the adventure for the parents, emphasising the good choices the players had made to solve problems. You can either do it in story form or bullet point. An added bonus is that the parents might get interested also (a lot of people like to think about what they would do in a battle of good vs. evil, especially men; I probably didn't need to mention that).
Stay away from adult/explicit content. Have clear rules on what you will allow and not allow, especially on how the players conduct themselves. I suggest at the least to not allow the books of VD and ED. Yes even ED. It is labeled as an adult book even though it deals with good. There is nudity in it and some of the stuff could be over their heads.
I would also probably stay away from things that could mock peoples ideals/religions. A roleplaying game based on a parent's religion (like the game Covenant) could upset them.
I'm highly religious, but I find a way to make this game work. Have a clear line between good and evil. Encourage participation, thinking, problem solving, all those things that parents want their children to be able to do in the real world.
That's all I can think right now. Good luck. Keep us posted because there might be others out there trying to do the same thing. We can make this game fun and respectable.
I apologize for overexagerrating some of my examples, I suppose I just vented some anger in this thread instead of in the rants thread. Now that I think about it I agree that this is probably not the best tactic. I'm a afraid I'm not the best at anticipating people. I apologize if anyone feels that I am attacking their faith which is not my intention. I am merley pointing out some hipocracy. I may not have gotten my examples entirley right so please correct me if I did.
*casts summon theacemu*
I'm sure he has something useful for a supporting argument!
I'm on it...when i get home tonight, i'll put together a list of points supported by studies that suggest that RPGs encourage critical thinking and problem solving skills in a number of core competencies (Math, reading/vocabulary/, history, and sociology [social studies]), promote interactive socilization and team building exercises, helps develop leadership and compromise/negotiating skills...etc.
Really, if presented in a learning environment, tabletop gaming can be a wonderful resource for educators...especially if the skill sets mentioned above are targeted learning goals during a session! I know about a year ago, one poster started a club and i helped him write his project proposal...Aslanii (sp?) perhaps? He may be of further assistance but i'll do what i can for the poster and our gaming community at large.
Stay tuned...
As ever,
ACE
Let's hope this doesn't come up:
Personally this is a really tough call.
As a Christian and a DnD player for over 27 years I see no issues with it but there are just too many extremists to make this a good idea in this setting.
It is only going to take one parent who takes this to the school board or one bad incident with a student after you start this up to ruin the game and possibly your career at this school.
As much as I see positive things from gaming in general (I think kids spend way too much time without interpersonal situations on gameboxes), the cost to you personally could be too high to make this worth pursuing too hard.
Then there is the possible "stigma" to the kids in your group being labelled devil worshippers.
I would encourage one of the kids to become a DM and support them to start their own club and hopefully find their own way into gaming.
You may call me a defeatist but I dopn't go around telling the people that I work with that I play Dnd....nothing good can come from it.
You may call me a defeatist but I dopn't go around telling the people that I work with that I play Dnd....nothing good can come from it.
When somebody asks me what I do in life, I tell them that I play hockey, online poker and role-playing games... And on my spare time, I work for the Quebec government.
Everyone who knows me is aware that I play role-playing games. I even put it on my resumé. And once they get to know me, they also learn that I'm one heck of a good guy with an extraordinary knack for problem solving.
Ultradan
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By the way, in response to what David Sundseth wrote; When you said Mike Stackpole would you be referring to Michael A. Stackpole who has published several Star Wars novels.
Yes. Mike used to work for Flying Buffalo (maybe still does, but I've been out of the industry for several years) and is both a game designer and author.
Ignorants…
If anyone believes that role-playing games are evil in any way, they should die a slow and horrible death!
This is why I don’t get religion
Ultradan
(sighs)
Yes, that’s obviously the answer. People who disagree with you should be put to death. And how exactly is that better than the beliefs of the “religious nutjobs?”
I’m not trying to come down on you alone, Ultradan, but it is worth pointing out that statements like that probably have as much to do with their negative perception of D&D as anything else. Most religious people have never played D&D and probably don’t know the first thing about it, but many have met someone who does play D&D and who absolutely despises Christians and isn’t ashamed to tell them so. If all they know about D&D stems from the time a gamer ridiculed them for their beliefs, or what they’ve heard from a fellow believer who suffered such an experience, is it any wonder that they assume there is something wrong with role-playing? Every time an “open minded” gamer attacks religious people, they perpetuate the cycle of distrust and prejudice.
It’s true that if someone has already made up his or her mind, rational argument is indeed pointless. That works both ways.
Should the parents not listen to your arguments, the only thing I could add to the above suggestions would be to ask them to sincerely pray about it before making their final decision. I can’t help but think that would accomplish more than insulting them.
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Sacrifice the parent as an offering to Satan. That is what we do in our games, right?
Or, if that's not your style, listen to the good suggestions above.
It may sound shallow, but flattery never hurts. Compliment the parent on raising such a precocious child (that's an assumption, but you can use it even if it's not true) and keep a tone that shows respect for a parent concerned and interested in their child.
Whatever you do, don't argue, raise your voice, or insult. Those never get you anywhere.
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Ignorants…
If anyone believes that role-playing games are evil in any way, they should die a slow and horrible death!
This is why I don’t get religion
Ultradan
(sighs)
Yes, that’s obviously the answer. People who disagree with you should be put to death. And how exactly is that better than the beliefs of the “religious nutjobs?”
I’m not trying to come down on you alone, Ultradan, but it is worth pointing out that statements like that probably have as much to do with their negative perception of D&D as anything else. Most religious people have never played D&D and probably don’t know the first thing about it, but many have met someone who does play D&D and who absolutely despises Christians and isn’t ashamed to tell them so. If all they know about D&D stems from the time a gamer ridiculed them for their beliefs, or what they’ve heard from a fellow believer who suffered such an experience, is it any wonder that they assume there is something wrong with role-playing? Every time an “open minded” gamer attacks religious people, they perpetuate the cycle of distrust and prejudice.
I suspect Ultradan was being facetious. However, it can certainly be the case that religion can breed closed-mindedness. That get's very wearying. Personally, I think there is a limit to which we should be expected to patiently explain our perfectly harmless hobby to ignorant Christians. How many other hobbies get this crap? World of Warcraft is virtually D&D, but you don't see the Christian League or whatever condemning it or protesting outside Blizzard HQ. It's annoying, and it doesn't seem to stop - surely we all got over this in the 80's.
And really - Devil-worship? Do they believe in fairies too?
Here's another suggestion, don't call it a "D&D Club" call it a "Role-Playing Game Club" that way you avoid the knee-jerk reaction that you might get. The same sort of reaction you might get if for instance you called it the "Nazi Club."
Also it gives you the opportunity to play other less naughty by reputation games like: Call of Cthulhu, Kult, In Nomine, Vampire: the Masquerade, Ray Winninger's Underground and Kobolds Ate My Baby...or not.
;) GGG
I suspect Ultradan was being facetious. However, it can certainly be the case that religion can breed closed-mindedness. That get's very wearying. Personally, I think there is a limit to which we should be expected to patiently explain our perfectly harmless hobby to ignorant Christians. How many other hobbies get this crap? World of Warcraft is virtually D&D, but you don't see the Christian League or whatever condemning it or protesting outside Blizzard HQ. It's annoying, and it doesn't seem to stop - surely we all got over this in the 80's.And really - Devil-worship? Do they believe in fairies too?
I hope he was being facetious. If so – Ultraden, I’m sorry for not getting the joke.
You’re weary of explaining D&D to Christians? Trust me, I’m just as tired of having to run damage control whenever a gamer vents his or her hatred for Christianity to one of my Christian friends. To be certain most religious people are close-minded – that’s almost definitional. But when gamers attack it for being close-minded with close-minded blanket condemnations it seems rather silly.
Are Christians still protesting D&D? Seriously?
I can’t recall offhand what percentage of Christians believes that Satan exists – like all things in Christianity opinions vary widely. But since he is mentioned in the Bible (even speaking with Jesus in the gospels), believing in his existence is no more bizarre than believing that Jesus was born of a virgin, led a sinless life, died on the cross, and rose from the dead to eternal life.
I apologize for the threadjack. I know it probably sounded corny, but really, give some thought to my suggestion about asking the parents to pray about it if they won’t listen to reason (I’d recommend that you try reason first). If they honestly believe that D&D is evil then rational arguments are not likely to carry much weight. If that’s the case, asking them to seriously pray about their decision before making it may be your only chance. You might be surprised by the results.
...Yes, that’s obviously the answer. People who disagree with you should be put to death.
Indeed they should...
Lol.
Ultradan
If I hadn't been introduced to D&D by my 5th grade teacher, and had he not split our class into parties of adventurers and run us all through his homemade dungeon during lunches over the course of the school year, I would probably be working as a data-entry monkey at some insurance company right now rather than on Dungeon magazine.
Which is another way of saying that in my case, D&D in schools ended up being more important to my career than, say, math class.
I can completely relate to James' experience. I was introduced to D&D by my sixth grade teacher. Hell, he let me borrow his original copy of the Tomb of Horrors. I wouldn't have half the reading ability, problem solving, vocabulary or creativity that I currently have if it weren't for D&D. I might not have even taken a huge gamble with my life by choosing to be an artist if it weren't for D&D.
My high school also had an "Adventure Gaming Club", which kept a kind of arm's reach from out and out saying "Dungeons and Dragons and Vampire Club". Still, no complaints were made. I guess it depends on the region that you're in, though it is a little discomforting to hear that their are problems like this in Hawaii.
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I hope he was being facetious. If so – Ultraden, I’m sorry for not getting the joke.
You’re weary of explaining D&D to Christians? Trust me, I’m just as tired of having to run damage control whenever a gamer vents his or her hatred for Christianity to one of my Christian friends. To be certain most religious people are close-minded – that’s almost definitional. But when gamers attack it for being close-minded with close-minded blanket condemnations it seems rather silly.
Are Christians still protesting D&D? Seriously?
I can’t recall offhand what percentage of Christians believes that Satan exists – like all things in Christianity opinions vary widely. But since he is mentioned in the Bible (even speaking with Jesus in the gospels), believing in his existence is no more bizarre than believing that Jesus was born of a virgin, led a sinless life, died on the cross, and rose from the dead to eternal life.
I apologize for the threadjack. I know it probably sounded corny, but really, give some thought to my suggestion about asking the parents to pray about it if they won’t listen to reason (I’d recommend that you try reason first). If they honestly believe that D&D is evil then rational arguments are not likely to carry much weight. If that’s the case, asking them to seriously pray about their decision before making it may be your only...
You are entitled to your opinion, though I disagreee vehemently. We have at least two threads thrashing out religious issues, so we can probably leave it at that without creating a third.
I'm also a teacher and I started many D&D club as part of my extra corecular activities. I don't have any problem with the parents but i'm very careful with the demon/devil themes of my campaing.
*** If your wandering why a teacher is writing so badly it's because i'm not english. In a way it's another good point for D&D. I'm completely self thaught. I took the french/english dictionary wen I was 11 years old because I had to DM "the Glacial rift of the frost giant Jarl"
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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I would also suggest more of a role-playing club approach it is less inflamatory to the vocal minorities that are most likely to give you grief. And while much of the advice on this list has been sound there are a few innoculous details you might skip:
Clerics and Paladins. While these classes represent good in the game--they worship gods that are not the christian god, and to worship any one other than God(even in pretend)is evil and devil worship. It falls under the insideous seductive allure clause of the "Thou Shall Not Play Dungeons and Dragons" commandment. So unless you have set your campaign against say the historical backdrop of the Crusades and the PCs are European I would just drop this approach it might do more harm than good.
Likewise exercise caution with literary references: Harry Potter to many is capital "E" evil. It supposedly seduces a younger and younger audience into black magic and witchcraft. while nothing could be farther from the truth you don't want to have to spend time defending all of your judgements. Even Lord of the Rings and the Chronicles of Narnia (both chock full of Christian symbolism) can come under attack by the religious zealots who have never read them.
The best advice I can offer is keep focused on the learning aspects. Answer any of the parent's questions as best as you know how, keep your cool, even if they attack you and your activities and roll high on that diplomacy check.
Everyone who knows me is aware that I play role-playing games. I even put it on my resumé.
Me too! :D
Theacemu brings up an interesting point/idea about using roleplaying for targeted lessons. That's a very interesting idea, I could see it being used in all sorts of different areas of study. :D
I would suggest what others have suggested - don't make it personal, meaning don't attack them or their beliefs. Be objective!
Everyone who knows me is aware that I play role-playing games. I even put it on my resumé.Me too! :D
Theacemu brings up an interesting point/idea about using roleplaying for targeted lessons. That's a very interesting idea, I could see it being used in all sorts of different areas of study. :D
I would suggest what others have suggested - don't make it personal, meaning don't attack them or their beliefs. Be objective!
Yes...i wish Aslanii could chime in here when he sees this thread. I'm not sure if he's using the learning tool suggestion, but it would be a huge part of my proposal if i were going to run a club in a school environment. Yes, gaming integrates some of the hard sciences like math, biology/ecology/anatomy (for monster stats and descriptions), and maybe some physics related discussion for spells and such. BUT, think of how the setting and composition (storytelling) can benifit teaching of the humanities...I'm not sure what HS curricula look like now, but we read Beowulf and the Arthurian legends, studied Shakespeare in the bardic tradition, and were required to write short stories and poetry for English. The social sciences covered the midevial era in all aspects of life including art, culture, government, and philosophy. Seriously, if i were going to moderate or involve myself in such a club i would tie each adventure with some kind of lesson that i'm teaching in the broader scheme of the HS curriculum. In this setting, if the kids aren't picking up on the learning aspects of the game and just bashing skulls for the fun of it (don't get me wrong, it is fun on some level), then it's probably not the best idea to tie that club in with a school sponsorship.
Having said that...it's how i'd convince either the principal or the school board to run such a club. It's a logical and good argument for all parties involved (and for me, it's not just BS rhetoric), but it won't convince everyone. Again...i'll dig up some sources tonight if you need references, but as far as the general arguement goes that's how i'd approach it.
As ever,
ACE
As a teacher at a high school, I understand the problems faced with getting a DND club started. We have a teacher here who has a Sci-fi Club and this includes all sorts of games, including magic (Which they got me into) video games, and of course D&D. The catch is that it is a sci-fi club with other things. D&D is just a small part of it.
To Pulpcricifiction: I have seen many times were a parent doesn't read a permission slip and just signs the paper. Lack of parental involvment is a big problem at our school and I fear that just because he has a permission slip signed does not mean the parent will be open to the conversation.
I wish him all the luck in the world and hope he is allowed to keep the club. D&D teaches so many things as already mentioned.
Now I will go back and read the rest of the posts :)
Clerics and Paladins. While these classes represent good in the game--they worship gods that are not the christian god, and to worship any one other than God(even in pretend)is evil and devil worship.
You can get around this in one of two ways:
1) Never use the words "god", "deity" or "worship" when describing the Cleric/Paladin. Use the words "serve" and "power" instead. It's a subtle distinction, but changing the words like that does have an effect.
2) Don't use gods at all - have Clerics/Paladins serve their alignment.
Even Lord of the Rings and the Chronicles of Narnia (both chock full of Christian symbolism) can come under attack by the religious zealots who have never read them.
Ironic, since both CS Lewis and JRR Tolkien were Christians, Narnia is intentionally allegorical, and there exist several letters by Tolkien talking about Christian elements in LotR.
Actually, depending on the parents, there might be some mileage in suggesting that Tolkien or (perhaps better) Lewis would probably have approved of D&D in some form, albeit perhaps a 'Christianised' version. Lewis, in particular, is highly respected by churches over here, although I can't speak for the States of course.
One book you might find helpful if you take this tack is "Christian Mythmakers", by Clyde S. Kilby and Rolland Hein, which talks about several Christian fantasy authors, Christian influences on their works, and the role of allegory in fantasy.
(Also, I note that Wizards are intending on publishing a book entitled "Confessions of a Part-time Sorceress" this year. I'm starting to think they might benefit from doing a similar book written by a Christian talking seriously about reconciling gaming and faith.)
...I'm starting to think they (Wizards) might benefit from doing a similar book written by a Christian talking seriously about reconciling gaming and faith.
That's the thing... Gaming has NOTHING to do with faith (nor does it attack in any way said faith), and can be no more a sin than playing cards, collecting stamps or bowling.
What is this, the 1850s? Only good can come of gaming. Periode.
Ultradan
Gaming . . . . can be no more a sin than playing cards, collecting stamps or bowling.
I agree. The problem is, that’s far from being universally accepted.
Heck, I couldn’t convince some friends of ours that playing pinochle and hearts wasn’t sinful. That’s why I suggested the OP ask the parents to pray as a last resort tactic – if reason fails why not try revelation?
That's the thing... Gaming has NOTHING to do with faith (nor does it attack in any way said faith), and can be no more a sin than playing cards, collecting stamps or bowling.
I know that. You know that. But there are a huge number of Christians out there who don't know that, and won't simply take the word of a random gamer for it. (Not to mention the fact that a lot of gamers are really not good apologists for the game. Too often, they casually disregard the very real concerns of others, go on an anti-religious tirade, or joke about sacrificing children to the Devil. None of which helps one jot.)
If, however, there is a book out there that tackles the subject seriously and rationally, and especially one written by a Christian gamer (preferably not as his first book about faith), it would be one more weapon we have against irrational reactions to the game. Real, tangible books still have a lot of weight, especially in church circles.
Plus, like it or not, there _are_ elements of the game that do have the potential to cause Christian gamers problems. Polytheism, use of magic, the presence of demons and devils, and the Book of Vile Darkness being key examples. And then there's all that pressure from other Christians to join them in their crusade against the game, or even just to renounce gaming as the work of the devil.
As far as I can see, a book of that sort can only help. I certainly don't see it doing any harm.
Due to reading this at work, and the amount of posts, I didn't give this a complete read so pardon any repetition.
I'll just list a couple of ideas which may or may not be helpful:
1) Mention that this is a game enjoyed, played, and run by people of all faiths & beliefs (or lack of). This should demonstrate that D&D isn't driven by anti-religious sentiment.
2) As mentioned above, invite the parent to sit in & encourage their interest (read: concern).
3) Describe D&D as a mix of boardgame, social interaction, and storytelling. After all, the group is creating a story by each taking an active role. This is similar in ways to what a drama club does. Really, most kids have been roleplaying already in some form via videogames...but the concerned parent may already have formed the same opinions about those too.
4) This may just be me, but I think seeing figurines on a mapped grid might make it easier to swallow. Preconceptions of D&D used to focus on it being strictly a product of imagination. Sure, most of it is...but the use of figurines makes it look more like a boardgame, which most people can relate to.
5) Most importantly (again), showing benefits for the kids playing may win the day. Need to look up a spell? Ask one kid to read out the spell to everyone. Need to keep track of initiatives? Get a kid involved by keeping the order. Have each player work track their hit points with pencil & paper (math). Encourage their ideas, have them work out plans as a group, create leadership opportunities, get them all involved...
Sure, it's D&D, that last stuff is a no brainer...but a parent may pick up on the fact that their kid is PARTICIPATING, reading, leading, being social, and hopefully laughing and is excited! It's a lot to hope that a parent will focus on their child's wellbeing instead of their own concerns, but hey...all you can do is try.
Good luck! As a gaming Lutheran myself who had to weather the concern of a parent when much younger, I understand what you're up against. If anything, it was partly responsible for helping me become an openminded person (at least, I hope I am!) myself ;-)
J-
4) This may just be me, but I think seeing figurines on a mapped grid might make it easier to swallow. Preconceptions of D&D used to focus on it being strictly a product of imagination. Sure, most of it is...but the use of figurines makes it look more like a boardgame, which most people can relate to.
I think Jimmy's on the ball with this one. That makes a lot of sense.
Here I agree with the Great Green God don't use the Name D&D Club at the Child care I teach at I use the Name "Adventure Gaming Club" similer to what was mentioned above I also heavly focus on the Good vs evil though I also avoid the Demons and Devils as bad guys. I also have a standing policy that the parents can always attend any meeting with out notice. I explane the the game teaches teamwork, planning, reading, problem solving, map reading, and creative thinking. I have even had parents who were skeptical posatively coment on the improvement in school in their children.
so more power to you and good luck
I guess I'm qualified to comment here. I've both taught in the public schools and worked as a minister. I currently teach Reading in the 6th grade.
First, I'm proud of our community here, in that so much good advice has been given. Those who think we're uneducated and "loser nerds" would be very surprised if they got to know us.
Now as to the advice. I'd suggest only one thing further. When the parent comes in, take a simple reading of her bearing.
You'll know when you greet her/him? what is on her mind. It will probably be genuine concern from something she's heard, or it may be to berate and condemn your program.
If the former, then by all means, invite her to a session and let her see what you are doing. Show here the educational benefits, etc. Give her some of the periodical evidence of the benefits of roleplaying and oral communication and how it effects reading achievement.
If the latter, diffuse her quickly and let her know her child does not have to participate. As someone said above, you cannot change someone who is emotional about D&D. Likely if she is taking this tack, she'll push to have the program removed. Remind her quickly and kindly that the program has invited parents to attend and asked for parental permission before the kids started participating, as she herself has seen.
Your administrator should have no problem diffusing her further so that one person does not affect a successful reading program. If she is there to berate and condemn, do not let her get started. No parent can be allowed to talk to a teacher or administrator in a disrespectful or demeaning manner at any time. That creates an unsafe environment on school grounds.
If you can keep an irate parent from getting worked up and instead have him or her talk rationally about it, usually, they are overcome and a consensus can be reached.
There is value in using a single "instrument"--in this case D&D--to increase reading achievement with students. However, consider using other similar methods as well. Readers Theatre works wonders as the oral reading helps comprehension and reading visualization. Try changing the genre of the game as well. The d20 system makes it fairly easy to switch to a different genre so that the students get experience with roleplaying in various different storyline types. Then your club may get students to join that do not enjoy the fantasy genre as much as other types of fiction material.
Others have suggested module source material for you. Try using something actually from the literature you're teaching in class. If you're reading Sounder, let them all roleplay training up their animals for a contest and show. If it's Lion, Witch and the Wardrobe, let them play one of the characters in the book and take the story in different directions. If you keep the subject matter of the adventurers closely tied to your lesson plans and curriculum, there's very little anyone can say about it.
WOW! I can't believe this sort of thing is still happening; guess I failed my reality check roll; 20+ years ago we had this same problem in high school; we even had a few of the local priesthood involved to say it was harmless fun that promoted reading, studying and learning mythology which was a course in our high school. A guy in our group said in his high school 15 years ago; there group of over 40 people with sponsers and lots of attendance and adult supervision was banned from there school from bs satan worship claims. You would think that with TV showing the type things they do now; and wow has it changed in the last 20 years that a simple thing like playing D&D as a club with all the reading and participation in dialog and cuts across class/race/religion and promotes cooperation would be a great venue.
Maybe you can use some of the religion thread where it shows that everybody from every walk of like plays the game and not one of them says they are a satanist; actually a bit surprizing; guess they dont play well with others.