Well, the half-way point in the current AP has been released, so it's about time we talk about the next one. I'll start off by saying that given James likes and dislikes the next AP will feature no dire corbies (pity). We've had undead and a double dose of outsiders, so the next AP will most likely feature aberrations as the major enemies, and may have something to do with the Far Realm. That's my take on it anyway?
What's yours?
PS. Hopefully this thread has not already been started by someone else. If it has, apologies. :)
A Styes adventure path would be amazing.
Aberrations also sounds great, though.
As long as it's modeled a little more along the lines of the Savage Tide, i.e., event based, travel based, with sporadic dungeons of moderate size, it should be great.
i think something based on the deserts of desolation would be cool.
An AP which doesnt have one theme. An AP where things get resolved and dont just carry on till 20th level. I propose 3-4 arcs with just a tiny bit of connection. Every 4 levels you finish up an arc and you feel a real sense of accomplishment.
Plus lets go back to the free city of greyhawk.
I would go gaga over an aberration based AP.
Especially if they could use the Tsochar from Lords of Madness. I'm itching to use them but they havn't fit in anywhere quite yet...
Love, love, love aberrations. Also love the idea of an AP that doesn't leave the Material Plane or deal with a threat from "beyond." While these boards have a lot of hate for half-dragons and such, I recently snagged the Draconomicon and dug it, big time. I would love an AP focused on dragons. Top to bottom, front to back. Yes, "Red Hand of Doom" covered that ground, but (sorry, James) I felt like it was a pale imitation of DragonLance. Basically, I would love to see something in tone very strange and aberration-centric, or something gritty and raw and grounded. Finally, I see a lot of people wishing the APs were shorter. Well, I've never run an AP. Maybe I never will. But Dungeon is the only place I can find a campaign that'll take my players from levels 1 through 20 -- or even see how it's done, for that matter. Keep it up!
20 levels IS long, BUT in the third AP for example one could use certain parts of the campaign as the afore mentioned arcs.
*minor spoilers to follow*
The first two adventures are set in or around Sasserine. If you don't intend to play the whole AP you could use them to launch a campaign set in Sasserine. You have got more info on this settlement than you could hope for in "normal"-Dungeon adventure.
The third module could be used in any campaign featuring a long sea journey.
Adventure 4-7 is something of a complete arc as PCs can be introduced fairly easily, they have a cool homebase to which they most likely have a strong relationship; there is a possible enemy that could cause more trouble for further adventures and in the last IoD-installment there is a certain boss-type monster that would make for a great showdown (as far as I know).
The other half of the AP isn't out yet so I just can speculate:
Module number 8 may be anxiously expected by fans of Porphyr House Horror and perhaps could even be used as some kind of sequel to this vile adventure.
The last adventures are centered around the Abyss, so every campaign against demons could end like this.
One could use all the Dungeon adventures set in the Amedio region so you could compose an own campaign or just an arc if you prefer (there were some in AoW and a lot in the SCAP).
So even if you don't want to run your PCs through these APs 1-20 they are very "useful". The reason I think they are gold for DMs, players and Paizo.
20 levels IS long, BUT in the third AP for example one could use certain parts of the campaign as the afore mentioned arcs.
*minor spoilers to follow*
The first two adventures are set in or around Sasserine. If you don't intend to play the whole AP you could use them to launch a campaign set in Sasserine. You have got more info on this settlement than you could hope for in "normal"-Dungeon adventure.
The third module could be used in any campaign featuring a long sea journey.
Adventure 4-7 is something of a complete arc as PCs can be introduced fairly easily, they have a cool homebase to which they most likely have a strong relationship; there is a possible enemy that could cause more trouble for further adventures and in the last IoD-installment there is a certain boss-type monster that would make for a great showdown (as far as I know).The other half of the AP isn't out yet so I just can speculate:
Module number 8 may be anxiously expected by fans of Porphyr House Horror and perhaps could even be used as some kind of sequel to this vile adventure.
The last adventures are centered around the Abyss, so every campaign against demons could end like this.One could use all the Dungeon adventures set in the Amedio region so you could compose an own campaign or just an arc if you prefer (there were some in AoW and a lot in the SCAP).
So even if you don't want to run your PCs through these APs 1-20 they are very "useful". The reason I think they are gold for DMs, players and Paizo.
QFE
I rarely run any kind of published adventure as written but rather adapt it to my own campaign, major/minor elements will be used etc! But all in all I view Dungeon as a resource for adventures, rather than a magazine of adventures.
At least so far, a 20 level AP in my opinion is not to long. I have really enjoyed running the Age of Worms (my players are currently moping up the SoLS).
I would suggest holding off on the outer realms stuff, keeping it on the material plane would be good, although that being said, someo fmy favorite adventures written in 3.0/3.5 are on the outer planes (Lord of the Iron Fortress, the Bastion of Lost Souls, ect.). Also, all things considered, AoW was based upon a villian that was home grown in Greyhawk, and the players never left the material realm, save for a quick jaunt to a demiplane...so maybe more plane walking would be good.
As far as an AP based upon dragons, that is rather close to what WOTC did on the first Psuedo-AP, the set of 12 (or so) adventures that were published for 3.0, such as the beforementioned. There were all based around one dragon and his prodginy. Cool idea, if not completely well realized.
1st AP - City Environment, Save the City vs. Deomadads
2nd AP - Mid Climates - Save the Continent vs. Undead Apothesis
3rd AP - Jungles, water climates - Save the World vs. Demigorgon's Savage Tides
4th AP - Deserts? Maybe the Sea of Dust? Ancient Suel? Rary?
Not sure what Iwant to see, however I have faith in James and all his crew, that they can put together an AP cooler than I could think up just off hand.
I really like the 1-20 progession, but I do understand that some people want a shorter, mid-level progression (like 1-12). I think that not only can the editors do that in a 1-20 AP progession format, but that they have done that in the STAP. "Tides of Dread" is a natural climax to not only the first part of the AP, but could be an exciting final climax for a 1-12 AP with little to no adjustment. If the editors continue down this path, everyone should be fairly happy.
I really dig the idea of a campaign set in/around the deserts of desolation. I fondly remember the adventures of Gord the Rogue in the region. It would give Paizo the chance to push the Sandstorm book and rules, desert travel, and it would give us something completely different from the previous APs. It could incorporate that loooong tunnel from the map and also Hellfurnace mountain environment adventures.
Or to really get our freak on there could be an AP set in the Barrier Peaks region dealing with an increasing "Area 51" type of threat. That would truely rock. Eventually we could get a 3.5 update/rewrite of Expedition to Barrier Peaks complete with Erol Otus artwork!
Of course there will definately have to be an AP set in the city of Greyhawk eventually...
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Mind flayers and doppelgangers. Something along the Warhammer Roleplay "Shadows over Bogenhafen" lines would be cool too. Were-rats and lots of dirty, sneaky trouble in the city.
The whole Sandstorm thing sounds like fun too, and DoD dragged into the 21st century sounds great ;P
I vote for the multi-arc thing with some dominion building mixed in.
I remember reading the old green boxed Companion Set, which detailed dominions and it was great. Characters really came to life in more ways than just how they are in adventure situations. They developed vested interests and there was even politics. Losing land to enemies became as painful as losing a character, and you were desperate to win it back.
I think I read in a post a while back about the absurdity of moving up 20 levels in the short periods that adventure paths are. For example, if a PC is 18 at 1st level, they could do the AoW and be 20th level by their 19th birthday.
I think having a campaign that spanned years would enable the development of dominions and may even make a use for the ageing rules, which I bet not a lot of people use.
Saying all that, it would be difficult for Dungeon to make a campaign like this that appealed to the majority, as there would be long periods of play devoted to non-combat and I think it's mainly hack-and-slash that sells.
heheh, underdark would indeed be awesome!!
adventures 1-3: Still in the city, and finally tracking down the main path below after some minor incursion
4-9: discover that there was something bigger going on.. that some minor units got out of control in the planned invasion of the lands above, all the while setting up contacts and such amongst the many races and cities below. As in fact most wouldn't even go above anymore at this point. Heck, maybe even shut them down there... nothing like a earthquake closing that entrance they came through :D (hope no one is claustrophobic or afraid of the dark?)
10-12: stopping the masters of below
I think the major decisions for the next AP are already made. What I would like to know is how big the "break" between the STAP and the next AP will be. Perhaps this time Paizo will do more issues with non-AP adventures and let the people finish their campaigns to get totally hooked up by the next one.
... let the people finish their campaigns to get totally hooked up by the next one.
That would be useful. I second that.
Considering the seeds for the arcs came from AD&D (or earlier) I speculate the next arc would lead towards something nostalgic as well. Underdark (D/Q series), Barrier peaks (S series), cityscape (waterdeep and the north), Asian (the various OA books(and since dinos and pirates have been covered)) are likely candidates. I like the idea of becoming landlords (Keep on the Borderlands). I also would like to stay in the same time/space continuam. Orcs and goblins are tough for 1sties; orcs and ogres are tough enough for midlevels; orcs with levels/templates are tough for high levels. 12 months of orcs is probably not a hot selling item though.
The Dominion Building is pretty specific in adventure style. What do you do if your players don't want to build a keep? It may be possible to split the difference and provide a story arc that has pauses during the plotline and is close enough to some kind of frontier that parties that want to do keep building can indulge while those that don't can just jump ahead top the next adventure by letting game time pass quickly.
Underdark is interesting but would have to be done with care. The Underdark can feel like 'Worlds Largest Dungeon' and thats to be avoided for a massive AP. However it also does have massive lakes, underground cities and all sorts of other interesting things like Svirfneblin Poulders. I guess if we are to see an Epic Underdark AP I trust James and the gang to make one that does not feel like one endless dungeon crawl.
Aberations does sound like a good Villian. Certianly Undead is out for a bit and we are doing Fiends. We don't want to deal with cults and anything with humans as the major villians is going to feel like cults...so I can't think of an alternitave to Abberations.
The next AP has already been determined? Does that mean we should really be dropping ideas for AP5?
Honestly, I can't think of anything I'd want in an AP that I haven't gotten out of the last two. The only place to take it for me would be to explore beyond the core system and look at some now-defunct settings for expansion.
I considered adapting AoW to Dark Sun when it started, but chickened out. I'd love to see an AP that spilled out into the Spelljammer setting they presented as a mini-game in Dungeon a while back and the old Ravenloft setting just cries out for a 1-20 campaign arc.
I wonder if they'd be willing to consider a Modern D20 AP or an AP for the new Star Wars Saga they're releasing soon. The lack of a good story line is what's kept me from trying a campaign in either of those systems.
What I'd like to see is an example of mass combat (warfare), such as the Heroes of Battle book details. Not sure if Savage Tide deals with that as we haven't played it yet and I'm not peeking, but I think that'd be entertaining.
Otherwise...no preference.
J-
Edit: Not an entire AP of mass combat, but a battle or two (or military campaign taking up one issue) is what I'm getting at.
I like desert of desolation but how about somewhere COLD!
Blackmoor, the land of black ice.
I like the idea of a world-spanning AP, where the party will have to travel to a variety of environments. Maybe break it up into one or two adventures set in each: arctic, desert, forest/jungle, planar, underdark, urban, and waterborne.
The next AP has already been determined? Does that mean we should really be dropping ideas for AP5?
Probably. Not sure how much our feedback counts for anything anyway. If one goes to the "What do you not want to see in Dungeon" thread its pretty clear that for everyone that really likes something there is another person who hates it.
Honestly, I can't think of anything I'd want in an AP that I haven't gotten out of the last two. The only place to take it for me would be to explore beyond the core system and look at some now-defunct settings for expansion.I considered adapting AoW to Dark Sun when it started, but chickened out. I'd love to see an AP that spilled out into the Spelljammer setting they presented as a mini-game in Dungeon a while back and the old Ravenloft setting just cries out for a 1-20 campaign arc.
Doubt you will see anything like that. Too many people can't use it. I mean I'd love it with one or two old settings and hate it with the rest and I bet most everyone is in the same boat except for those that really only like one of the three main campaign settings - they would all hate it. So such an AP could not help but alienate the majority of subscribers and James and the gang are just not likely to let taht happen.
I wonder if they'd be willing to consider a Modern D20 AP or an AP for the new Star Wars Saga they're releasing soon. The lack of a good story line is what's kept me from trying a campaign in either of those systems.
Dungeons not the place for this but if WotC is smart then I'd not be at all suprised to see them put together something like this. Probably in five or so seperate modules that are linked.
I like the idea of a world-spanning AP, where the party will have to travel to a variety of environments. Maybe break it up into one or two adventures set in each: arctic, desert, forest/jungle, planar, underdark, urban, and waterborne.I like desert of desolation but how about somewhere COLD!
Blackmoor, the land of black ice.
Not a bad idea. At some point I'd like to see another take on the single city (or town) AP taken from 1-20. Preferably with a little more intrigue, mystery and also maybe more coherence then SCAP (but of course still chalk through with bloody fights - that's a given).
At some point I'd like to see another take on the single city (or town) AP taken from 1-20. Preferably with a little more intrigue, mystery and also maybe more coherence then SCAP (but of course still chalk through with bloody fights - that's a given).
One of the things I'm looking forward to most about the STAP is the sheer variety of adventures. From city adventures to wilderness to sea voyages to dungeon crawls... This one promises to keep the players hopping. I don't think I could constrict myself to a single city after this.
The only thing I'd like to see is the same approach but travelling to core locations instead of "off the map". Whether I'm running a group through Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk or Eberron, I'd like an excuse to take my party to the places they want to see.
One of the things I'm looking forward to most about the STAP is the sheer variety of adventures. From city adventures to wilderness to sea voyages to dungeon crawls... This one promises to keep the players hopping. I don't think I could constrict myself to a single city after this.The only thing I'd like to see is the same approach but travelling to core locations instead of "off the map". Whether I'm running a group through Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk or Eberron, I'd like an excuse to take my party to the places they want to see.
You know Fletch, I can dig what you're saying, but consider this:
An adventure path that really gets into the core locations is a lot more difficult to adapt to another campaign setting. Say, for instance, that you have an AP that starts in cormyr, runs up to shadowdale, then crosses auneroch and heads over to waterdeep via silverymoon. Then, down to calimshan for the final - all the while making sure you keep the flavor and setting in mind to create a memorable FR campaign.
you couldn't move it on over to Eberron without a LOT of work, or a homebrew. Keeping the AP's generic and "off the map" really helps the writers and designers do whatever seems interesting and memorable without limiting the playability of the AP for anyone who might want to use a different campaign setting.
One of the things I'm looking forward to most about the STAP is the sheer variety of adventures. From city adventures to wilderness to sea voyages to dungeon crawls... This one promises to keep the players hopping. I don't think I could constrict myself to a single city after this.
I think it depends on what kind of adventuring theme one wants. I love exploration type adventures myself but they don't mesh easily with political intrigue style adventures and its difficult to have intersting reoccuring NPCs because the players are always off to some where new.
Why do PC's have to explore so much? Some of these campaigns feel like they were designed for maximum milage. That just defeats the idea of having NPC's, customs, rituals, currency ect. Why would my characters care about an NPC name if we switch towns every adventure? I have always liked starting my pcs in a "Good Nation" with an "Evil Nation" next door. Players live and adventure in "Good City", but occasionally have to rescue people, scout in, and defend from "Evil City".
Here is my idea for the next ap. Players live in city. Have lots of adventures in that city, sewer, theif, political adventures. Players explore a couple dungeons near that city. Players have to defend the city from a n army of orcs. Players have to go deep into that armys fortress to kill its king and retrieve an artififact that makes this army strong. Find a way for the players to: adventure on a boat, in a desert, in a different plane ect, but let them have a home.
Please, no prophecies. No gods. No scheming devils. No complex plot that is over everyones head. Let the adventures actually RESOLVE instead of having the players go through a 20 level detective story.
I'd like to see an adventure path in which every two or three adventures are a complete package in themselves.
I'm a fan of the 20-level detective story personally, but I know others aren't. So what about smaller, complete adventure arcs within the greater story? Each two-to-three adventure arc could have an entirely different feel and setting from the others in the arc. Moreover, each could have a meaningful sense of victory and complete closure. At the end of each smaller arc, the PCs should feel like Luke, Han, Leah and the rest feel at the end of the original Star Wars movie (Episode IV), not the way they feel at the end of The Empire Strikes Back. Each arc could stand alone as a great story that I could run without running the entire AP. The clues and connections for the overall AP would be woven throughout the smaller arcs, providing promise of great things to come for DMs who want to include them, but they wouldn't be so prevalent or integral to each story that they'd undermine the smaller arcs with unresolved loose ends.
STAP has something of this already, of course, with it's Sasserine chapter, it's travel & Farshore chapter, and its Isle of Dread chapter. Perhaps there's an opportunity for stronger narrative closure in future AP arcs.
An adventure path that really gets into the core locations is a lot more difficult to adapt to another campaign setting.
I'm going to disagree a little bit here, because I think it's possible to write a story that goes to the core locations without going to them because they're core locations.
By that I mean, if you had adventure 3 of 12 be a quest to stop an alliance by the Zhentarim and the dark elves below Shadowdale, well yeah, that'd be hard to adapt. But if the adventure called for the party to travel from Cormyr to Shadowdale to try to raise support against an invading army, that could easily be told Greyhawk with the party travelling from Keoland to Geoff.
Look at how Age of Worms used the "Free City". There wasn't anything there that was specifically Greyhawk or Waterdeep or Sharn, but the players got to visit the greatest city their campaign world had to offer and that flavor really added to the otherwise open adventures there.
For the next AP I can think of nothing better than Tharizdun!
I really hope that each and every AP is set in Greyhawk and made easy enough to port to other settings. That is default D&D and the best IMO.
I also like pie.
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So far I feel that all the APs "spill the beans" about the major villain too early. One of Monte Cook's best (IMHO) Mastering the Game articles was in #125 where he laid out the structure of an campaign story-arc in 5-Level steps. I hate having PCs get too many clues to the identity of the main villain in the 1st or 2nd adventure (for Tide I'd have had a few caged savage creatures on the pirate ship or in the city as circus freaks, not a cave full of them and a shattered pearl already, much less a pickled green worm at the start of AoW). I'd like to see layers of peripheral plots and mini-bosses pealed back until about 15th level when we find out who's behind it all.
Isn't that what Savage Tide is already doing? So far, unless I've forgotten something, I don't think the PCs have anything more than a couple of scattered clues about the BBEG, and nothing that ties him directly to shadow pearls, savage tides, or some looming planes-shaking conflict. First it was the Lotus Dragons, then Vanthus, the Crimson Fleet, and now we're in the midst of good old IoD open exploration. The involvement of the true BBEG has been peripheral (apparently), and another (Malcanthet) has been completely hidden.
As to ideas presented above, I hate the entire Far Realms business and would consider not renewing if an AP goes that direction.
I'm with you on that. I like the iconic aberrations (aboleths, beholders, mind flayers, etc.), but have no interest in the Far Realms. Anyway, it looks like the coming mini-arc will satisfy any Far Realms itch.
I'm an advocate of the smaller arcs connected to form one complete 1-20 in a generic/default D&D world.
That said, if I could have an AP wish come true, it would be set in a Norse world with some dips into more temperate and underground locales for variety.
The aberrations theme sounds really good to me. One of the major players for this could be the Phaerimm with some rogue Neogi in there for backup . I do believe the Phaerimm are initially from the Realms but through the use of spelljamming ships they could have landed or even crashed.This could add some extra flavor to this AP.You don't have to incorporate any spelljamming into the game itself, but it could be in the background. Do to the use of thralls they wouldn't necessarily have to even be found out to be involved until the higher levels. To add to the theme the Sharn could also eventually land (secretly) via spelljamming and bring some valuable info to the table in ways to eliminate the evil creatures.
Well thats my two cents for now.
By the way I'm DMing threw both AoW and ST with two seperate groups and let me say were having a blast with both of them. So thank you and keep up the good work.
Why do PC's have to explore so much? Some of these campaigns feel like they were designed for maximum milage. That just defeats the idea of having NPC's, customs, rituals, currency ect. Why would my characters care about an NPC name if we switch towns every adventure?
I'm with you here ... some of the time. Certainly developing ongoing NPCs, as well as traditions and familiar locations that one gets to interact with during most adventures can make for really great gaming. Ones home base can really come alive. Furthermore players are free to develop side goals and really explore the role playing side of their character beyond what the character does when there are not a dozen heavily armed Ogres trying to turn him or her into meat paste. Hence a campaign set in a more or less stable location allows one to really develop that setting to a level of detail that simply is not possible in the exploration type campaigns where players are always on the move to another location and the polders they bump into along the way are little more then backdrops soon left behind.
Furthermore a significant amount of what's good in an exploration type campaign can be had in one with a stable home base. Its certainly possible to have fantastic environments located nearby and have adventures take place in them. Strange, spooky or weird places can be right in the middle of a city for some adventures and at the higher levels one can easily have adventures taking jaunts to anywhere using magic. Its a fantasy world after all and nothing says that everything in or near ones home base has to be mundane and boring - A stable home base is no bar to exciting and imaginative adventure locations.
That said exploration type games have their place - but I think its important to use them with a purpose. STAPs theme of pirates and colonies etc. makes the whole exploration theme worth while. Here it is a big part of the look and feel of the campaign as a whole and its worth sacrificing the benefits of a stable location to get that. Similarly an AP about guarding a caravan on a world circling journey would justify giving up a stable location (and one would still get many of the benefits as ones stable location more or less travals with you).
However - while I loved the Age of Worms AP, I question the mileage racked up. Most of the time there was no real reason why the players had to be constantly changing locations - certianly nothing in the overarcing plot demanded it. My feeling is that the whole thing could have been written with the Free City serving as a constant home base. In fact if that had been done I suspect that one would have less problems with the players taking the role of hero. Saving the world seems a lot more important if your actually invested in the people and places in the world.
Thus my feeling is that stable location should be the default choice for an AP with non-stable location being chosen only when the plot or theme demand it.
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However - while I loved the Age of Worms AP, I question the mileage racked up. Most of the time there was no real reason why the players had to be constantly changing locations - certianly nothing in the overarcing plot demanded it. My feeling is that the whole thing could have been written with the Free City serving as a constant home base. In fact if that had been done I suspect that one would have less problems with the players taking the role of hero. Saving the world seems a lot more important if your actually invested in the people and places in the world.
In fact the original outline for Age of Worms involved the player characters spending about three more adventures in the Free City, rooting out corruption in the Directing Oligarchy tied to Balabar Smenk and Loris Raknian, but this was rejected by Wizards of the Coast because it put too much emphasis on Greyhawk and because someone over there thought there weren't enough dungeons in the campaign (!).
--Erik
However - while In fact the original outline for Age of Worms involved the player characters spending about three more adventures in the Free City, rooting out corruption in the Directing Oligarchy tied to Balabar Smenk and Loris Raknian, but this was rejected by Wizards of the Coast because it put too much emphasis on Greyhawk and because someone over there thought there weren't enough dungeons in the campaign (!).
Dang, I didn't know that WotC's gravetouched arms were this long!
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However - while I loved the Age of Worms AP, I question the mileage racked up. Most of the time there was no real reason why the players had to be constantly changing locations - certianly nothing in the overarcing plot demanded it. My feeling is that the whole thing could have been written with the Free City serving as a constant home base. In fact if that had been done I suspect that one would have less problems with the players taking the role of hero. Saving the world seems a lot more important if your actually invested in the people and places in the world.In fact the original outline for Age of Worms involved the player characters spending about three more adventures in the Free City, rooting out corruption in the Directing Oligarchy tied to Balabar Smenk and Loris Raknian, but this was rejected by Wizards of the Coast because it put too much emphasis on Greyhawk and because someone over there thought there weren't enough dungeons in the campaign (!).
--Erik
Is there any more information out there on this? Who do we need to pester? :)
