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The pdfs will ony be available when the printed copies have sold out, as James has pointed out several times on these boards.
I was quite unaware that there's been any previous discussion of or request for releasing the Greyhawk regional feats as a PDF independent of their appearance in the afore-mentioned Dragon issues.
They're not cave men by any means, but they do need something to indicate a lack of advancement compared to others (if we're still looking for an alternate build to represent them).
Simple weapons (no crossbows) only, plus greatclub, handaxe, shortbow, and exotics like blowgun and macahuitl. All equipment limited to what could reasonably exist at a Stone Age technology level (see DMG pg. 144). Spellcasters may not have access to certain spells that require material components unknown in Stone Age cultures.
Yesterday I was reading through Dragon 315 (the issue with the regional feats) and on page 95 there's a couple prestige clases bassed on Aztec warriors (Eagle and Jaguar) from the Maztica setting. They seem pretty close to the Olman's flavor so it wouldn't be a stretch to add them as Olman prestige classes. There's a paragraph or too about the various "Maztican" weapons such as Macas (Stone edged long swords) etc. Hope that helps.
I was shocked by the abundance of cultural relativism in here. Think about what the Olmen (Olmans?) have done. If level of weaponry and buildings is the indication of intelligence, then I would suggest that halflings receive a -4 to intelligence. They are roamers and whatnot, and apparently have not invented any weapons or magic.
Anyway, after my anthropological tirade, back to business.
I think it's interesting how people don't look at the actual things that the Olmans have done. The Dark Mountain pass is a six mile tunnel under a mountain. What other ancient culture used such things?
I think that, while the Olman people should not get a penalty to weapons, I think that a good explanation would be needed to use a longsword with weapon focus (longsword) upon the discovery of the new PC. I could imagine an enslaved Olman being forced to fight in the Free city games in the city of greyhawk, learning how to use a sword and armor properly.
They're not cave men by any means, but they do need something to indicate a lack of advancement compared to others (if we're still looking for an alternate build to represent them).
History is packed with cultures at different levels of technological advancement, despite no measurable differences in mental or physical capabilities. Personally, I'd just say 'the culture and technology are different.'
My two cents :)
Recall that the posts suggesting various racial characteristics are in response to a specific request for something other than humans...yes, the Olman can work just fine as Humans, but if someone wants something otherwise, we're trying to help that along.
Also, the various great achievements of the original Olman Empire are not, IMHO, evidence that modern-day Olman are an equally great people. Their empire was destroyed (or destroyed itself) thousands of years ago, and these descendants still haven't risen back above Stone Age technology. Not just on the island, but (using the default campaign setting of Greyhawk) throughout the entire world. They haven't even advanced back to the point of being able to recreate any of their ancient feats. The natives of the Isle, for instance, could in no way carve a tunnel under a mountain in present day.
What if I told you a story about a group of people who where advanced. VERY advanced. They had a world spanning Empire which housed more intellectual development than the rest of the world. Believing themselves to be more culturally developed than the other's, they set out to conquer them, and they did.
However, this country's empire fell long ago. A bit less than one thousand years later, the people of the empire still haven't pulled themselves up. They bicker among little barronets and have actually gone backwards in their technology.
I am talking, of course, about the Roman Empire and the Dark Ages. Should the people of the dark ages receive a penalty?
I'm not proficient with the lore of Greyhawk, but I think this has relevance.
I'm with Delfedd on this.
I agree that it would be nice to establish some divergence from human norms for the Olman, but -2 Int doesn't seem appropriate to me. Perhaps a set of skill modifiers and/or unique regional feats?
Not to put too fine a point on it, but half-orcs are stupid (by and large). Let's not make the Olman stupid.
Well, the Romans weren't actually world-spanning, not even close, and cultures in other areas (Asia, for instance) were possibly more advanced in many ways. Not exactly the point, but let's not cast the Romans as more than they were...
Now, for this discussion I'm of the "keep it simple" camp. A -2 Int would work just fine and I don't feel I'm slighting my Native American cousins in any way by doing so (it's moot for me, anyway, as I'm not running the game in Greyhawk). For those looking at other non-ability score related changes, can you lay those out specifically for consideration? What skills would be modified, for instance, and how? Etc.
EDIT: Oh, and the regional feats already exist (see earlier in the thread).
Well, the Romans weren't actually world-spanning, not even close... not cast the Romans as more than they were...
While literally accurate, the scope of the Roman Empire was virtually unmatched in human history. I don't think anyone here is giving them more credit than they are due.
Now, for this discussion I'm of the "keep it simple" camp. A -2 Int would work just fine and I don't feel I'm slighting my Native American cousins in any way by doing so (it's moot for me, anyway, as I'm not running the game in Greyhawk)...
As you say, it's your campaign. Further, since its not Greyhawk, there's little obligation to make them conform to any set standard. Such a modification, however, still makes the average Olman stupid.
And I agree, there's no slight against Native Americans -- you're making no assertions about them.
More random thoughts :)
Jack
Well, the Romans weren't actually world-spanning, not even close... not cast the Romans as more than they were...While literally accurate, the scope of the Roman Empire was virtually unmatched in human history. I don't think anyone here is giving them more credit than they are due.
At it's height, the Roman Empire controlled close to the same area as China. Alexander came close to ruling the same area before he died. The Moors controlled about the same area (less of Europe, but more of Asia Minor and Africa) in their heyday. The Mongols had almost half the world in their grasp, which is unmatched in recorded history. Let's not be European-centric.
As far as Olman characters go, they should be treated as "standard" humans, unless you want to apply a template of some sort. The only difference should be allowable equipment (as I posted above). Add some non-standard (or variant) classes, spells, and prestige classes and they are "exotic enough."
While literally accurate, the scope of the Roman Empire was virtually unmatched in human history. I don't think anyone here is giving them more credit than they are due.
At it's height, the Roman Empire controlled close to the same area as China. Alexander came close to ruling the same area before he died. The Moors controlled about the same area (less of Europe, but more of Asia Minor and Africa) in their heyday. The Mongols had almost half the world in their grasp, which is unmatched in recorded history. Let's not be European-centric.
Fair enough.
I knew Asia had its share of such accomplishment -- in my defense, I did say virtually.
:)
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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At it's height, the Roman Empire controlled close to the same area as China. Alexander came close to ruling the same area before he died. The Moors controlled about the same area (less of Europe, but more of Asia Minor and Africa) in their heyday. The Mongols had almost half the world in their grasp, which is unmatched in recorded history. Let's not be European-centric.
If you want to be picky, the largest empire was a more modern one: the British empire. The mongols had the largest contiguous empire, not the largest period. They didn't really have that close to half the world, though.
Let's not rob the Europeans of their due in an effort to NOT be Euro-centric.
I think we all agree that the Olmans are just as smart as any of the rest of the human cultures on Greyhawk.
They did build some impressive stone structures!
I rather like the idea of givig bonus skills to different cultures as opposed to changes in stats. As all history buffs know each culture has its good and bad.
I would also be weary of limiting the Olman magic. Maybe those on the Island of Dread have become more "de-evolved" than thier fellows on the mainland and have lost some of the magic of a once great empire.
I too, would like to place my voice behind Maztica as good source material.
Having the Olman's be plain-Jane humans doesn't seem very exotic to me. Anybody have suggesstions on an alternate race that could be used as the Olmans?
One of my characters is using a pygmy halfling, who are cannabalistic and live in giant hives (similar to termite mounds) deep in the jungle. The Elders send out one pygmy halfling a generation to scout out 'the meat' and report on what's going on outside the jungle.
They're basically tiny Meso-American Natives with a penchant for elf fingers.
Their stats can be found in the Quintessential Halfling. I think they're very very cool.
Having the Olman's be plain-Jane humans doesn't seem very exotic to me. Anybody have suggesstions on an alternate race that could be used as the Olmans?
To each their own, but I find that thought interesting -- and a bit disturbing. There are 'plain-Jane' humans in real life that are quite exotic, and would be so in a D&D game (Aztecs among them).
My two cents. Opinions will differ :)
On a totally different tangent, but still on the main topic, I like the idea of modified spell casters and think, with some flavor variations, that an Olman character w/ a class based on the Wu Jen from Complete Arcane would have some cool flavor. I don't know how folks on the board feel about the Wu Jen class, but a lot of these features seem to make sense to me for an "exotic" culture like the Olman:
I like the emphasis on spirit magic and the elemental focus, although I might limit access at higher levels to metal spells. Wu Jen could still be village "zombie masters". They are set up as loners/outsiders already and the taboo aspect seems to fit nicely to me, especially considering the fall of the empire and all of this culture's history and misfortune w/ magic. I don't know if anyone has explored this, but I've considered it and think it might be a good fit.
I'd even consider having the spellbook being in different format, such as tablet (think Mayan "calendar), or a patterned weaving or something just plain different.
Food for thought on the magic issue.
Well, the Romans weren't actually world-spanning, not even close, and cultures in other areas (Asia, for instance) were possibly more advanced in many ways. Not exactly the point, but let's not cast the Romans as more than they were...
There is evidence found in the middle east from the Sassanid Persian period of a container filled with a mixture of acids which functioned very much like a battery, which was used by the Persians to electroplate statues with gold which were then sold to the Romans, who thought that they were solid gold. Quite amazing really.
To give the Romans their due though, they did create one of the largest empires ever seen in the west at the time and their level of engineering/architecture and building was quite astounding. Just because they didn't come up with as many great writers etc. as previous cultures such as the Greeks doesn't mean that they were a stupid society.
Well, the Romans weren't actually world-spanning, not even close... not cast the Romans as more than they were...While literally accurate, the scope of the Roman Empire was virtually unmatched in human history. I don't think anyone here is giving them more credit than they are due.At it's height, the Roman Empire controlled close to the same area as China. Alexander came close to ruling the same area before he died. The Moors controlled about the same area (less of Europe, but more of Asia Minor and Africa) in their heyday. The Mongols had almost half the world in their grasp, which is unmatched in recorded history. Let's not be European-centric.
The Ottoman empire at its furthest extent in the 1600s was really quite sizable as well let us not forget.
I like the emphasis on spirit magic
What about Binders (Tome of Magic, pact magic)?
You could create some more Aztec/Mayan Style vestiges and then you'd have a perfect form of "Spirit Magic"
Warmage 101
Redesign the "fluff" desciptions of the soulmelds, and the totemist from Magic of Incarnum is kind of cool too. I also agree with the Wu Jen concept, although I think animate dead is further back on the list compared to cleric.
Unless someone actually wants to play or fight an Olman Zombie master, the mechanics of class shouldn't actually come up, but if they did, I'd probably use cleric, but sub out all of the cleric armor proficiencies for the Wu Jen secondary abilities (Elemental Mastery, spell secrets, taboos), and maybe the ability to get their wisdom to AC as a monk. "You can not strike me! The spirits of my ancestors guide my limbs!"
Just a thought.
Some of the art in Dragon rather made the Olmans of the Isle of Dread appear closer to the cultures of Papua.
That could be cool too!
Might work nice in a Realms setting where the people of Chult are concerned.
Hi folks,
There are 3 Olman in my campaign. One Olman priest of Quetzalcoatl, one Olman half-orc barbarian and one Olman-Suel thief. I have made a document about Olman weapons and armor for my own campaign. I have placed it on my website too: www.miracleblades.nl/greyhawk.htm.
Many greetings,
Veterial
Very nice! I love cultural role-playing!
Thanks. I have described an Olman Quetzalcoatl church in my Sasserine locations document also. This church is based on a Church I visited in Mexico.
Many greetings,
Veterial