You've sacked far more villains and picture bad guys then all the rest in the group. And barring a fluke Nat. 1 on a Counterspell check, you'd have likely added Dragotha's feather to your cap as well. It distresses me that you had the encounter so well in hand that I had to utterly luck my way to victory. Even with my alterations to Dragotha, I still was headed for defeat, were it not for that most Naughty of Scrolls...
That's way too much math- no wonder people get tired of high level gaming. Recipricol Gyre would have been real hell on your character- except that with spell turning it would have likely been turned back against you. Though if Dragotha is smart and he is, he might realize you have spell turning and then burn it off by casting stuff that would buff him and have it bounce back to buff himself with it. Once he'd used your spell turning up buffing himself then reciprocial gyre might have creamed you- though your spell resistance is pretty high. However, good old Mordenkeinan's disjunction is a quick way to make whack all those buffs and make bog you down with a half hour of calculations.
Oh, there wasn't much to calculate in the 'aftermath' (splooshing into the drink of green slime). It was pretty clear the session was about done for at that point, and that Cleric 3.0 was pretty much slime poo. Took me a while longer to fact-check it, but dead is dead. I neglected to announce it at the table, but I did relate the fact via e-mail to the participants once I was sure.
As a note PH Dungeon, I always know what my characters can do nekkid, as well as with regular gear only - the math came in when piling on the buffs.
Granted, with 2 weeks between most sessions, it is easy enough to crunch the numbers during the downtime between (usually).
Ironically, the way I understand 'defenses' being applied saved one of Dragotha's helpers. Since immunities trump all other defenses, the Horrid Wiltings that flew thick and furious merely bounced instead of being Spell Turned.
And with Dragotha's primary spells being focussed on defenses and multi-target and/or no-save spells, the spell you mention isn't an option - he can only know 2 8th level spells I believe, for example. I do concur that particular spell could have proven efficacious, although a Disjunction is guaranteed effective barring a counterspelling.
You've sacked far more villains and picture bad guys then all the rest in the group. And barring a fluke Nat. 1 on a Counterspell check, you'd have likely added Dragotha's feather to your cap as well. It distresses me that you had the encounter so well in hand that I had to utterly luck my way to victory. Even with my alterations to Dragotha, I still was headed for defeat, were it not for that most Naughty of Scrolls...
*Chuckling* 'Tis all a part of the game, especially at high levels. Granted, I am inclined to agree in hindsight, with the caveat being that the Disjunction I would have tossed off next would have had to frag his Life Ward item. (The spell and contingent spell would have been gone by default.) Without it, I would have clobbered him 2 or 3 times at best on any given full attack action, and my best artillery would never have been able to come into play. Granted, the 'opening salvo' would have been pretty impressive by whipping out the two Dawnstars and setting them off...
Still, it would have been SOOOO satisfying to have been successful in stripping his Life Wards down and then obliterated him with a Disciple of the Sun super-sock'em turning...
With further hindsight, I would reluctantly agree that my clerics have substantially contributed to the group not having an even higher PC death toll than the staggering count of 71 the campaign presently has. A lot of this is lost with the antics of the twinky-munckin characters of course, which reinforces the statement made so long ago that player stupidity generates the majority of character deaths in most encounters. The rest are either bad luck or sheer bad-assed'ness of the BBEG in question.
Now of course, being quite thoroughly sick to my stomach of playing the only healing-buffing-turning cleric in a group that has had as many as a dozen or so players, I have to figure out what to prepare for the next session.
Looking over my previous posts, I like to think that pointing out stuff via the journal is a whole lot better than trying to whine-cheese-whine-bwaaa as several of the other players tend to do at the table. In essence, learning from the game with each session played. I'm very much not a fan of retractions, especially ones brought up once the session has concluded. If brought up promptly and politely, with rule info easily demonstrated rather than argued-whined-byotched out loud, I will far more often accomodate an immediate retraction when I am in error as a GM as well as a player.
So, yes, the battles with Dragotha have been educational indeed. ^_^
Well....if you can't beat them Turin...
In the vein of the current party, I'd go with Aboleth Ninja or Avolakia Monk (a rebellious one of course), or perhaps a Bulette Barbarian. These choices seems very much in the style the rest of the group is still trying to pull together.
Cleric 3.0 went to join the Burning Hate in Carceri huh? I will admit though, Feather Falling through a sea of Green slime must have been a horrific way to go.
Give us your thoughts on what PC you're bringing in next Turin.
Well....if you can't beat them Turin...
In the vein of the current party, I'd go with Aboleth Ninja or Avolakia Monk (a rebellious one of course), or perhaps a Bulette Barbarian. These choices seems very much in the style the rest of the group is still trying to pull together.
** spoiler omitted **
Cleric 3.0 went to join the Burning Hate in Carceri huh? I will admit though, Feather Falling through a sea of Green slime must have been a horrific way to go.
Give us your thoughts on what PC you're bringing in next Turin.
A bulette barbarian ... awesome! LoL (And yes, I figured you were not serious.)
Yeah, the feather fall reduced the CON damage to a 'mere' 8d6. If it had been a standard 200ft fall, that would have been 18d6 CON damage instead...
Therein lies the rub Yasha, regarding what PC to bring in, given Dragotha's AC (54)- Touch probably very close to that via Scintillating Scales, defenses (anti-life shell, superior invisibility, immunity to probably all 5 energy types being the primary ones I've either verified or guesstimated at) and imperviousness to positive energy effects (Life Ward). That pretty much reduces matters to somehow generating a sufficient melee attack bonus to hit him - no mean feat even at 19th level - while bypassing the anti-life shell. Then of course there is the matter of somehow generating the better part of 1,000 hp of damage in a VERY few rounds' time.
A Fighter, with a BAB of 19, Greater Weapon Focus (+2), Melee Weapon Mastery (+2), a +5 Undead Bane weapon (+7), the +1 competence bonus to attack ioun stone, a luck stone (which I *think* grants a +1 luck bonus to attack among other things) and a total STR of 33 (+11){18+4 level +5 inherent +6 enhancement} totals an attack bonus of +43 on his best melee attack, two with Haste or an equivelant effect.
That gives, presuming my inept fellow PCs, a pathetic 45% chance to successfully hit on a fighter's BEST two attack rolls. The subsequent attack bonuses are worse by far: +43/+43 (hitting on a natural 11+)/+38 (hitting only on a natural 16+)/+33/+28 (the last two swings requiring a nat 20 just to connect). For all practical purposes, over the course of twenty consecutive melee rounds (two MINUTES), such a fighter would statistically connect a total of a mere 27 times out of 100 attacks.
Presuming a 2d6 damage (i.e., greatsword) adamantine holy undead bane weapon (+7 & bonus +4d6 damage per hit bypassing a presumed stoneskin as well as his magic DR from being a dragon, but not the bludgeoning DR from being a dracolich), greater weapon specialization and melee weapon mastery for the weapon's damage type (+6), wielded two-handed (+16), each successful blow deals 6d6+29 damage.
Since so many hits are being 'crunched', that translates into an average damage per hit of 45 after DR 5/bludgeoning.(6d6 statistically averages 21.) Against his 'as written' hp total of 832, that means Mr. Fighter has to hit him nineteen times. At maximum hit points of 1,036 that requirement becomes 23 hits.
To do this would take between 10 and 14 rounds of consecutive full-round attacks. This also presumes (a) a means of *bamfing* inside the anti-life shell as a swift or free action [easily done, legally] and (b) retaining a True Seeing spell or effect by an as-yet to be determined means.
The only way to improve that melee AB is from divine and arcane buff spells (Recitation, Aura of Vitality, Prayer, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Haste and so on) that I frankly cannot count on my 'comrades at arms' to be bothered to cast on a "mere Fighter".
Seems the answer may well lie in ranged weaponry instead ... or a *shudder* Warblade, which can achieve a lower damage output per non-maneuver hit but have a +50/+50/+45/+40/+35 hasted melee full-attack bonus sequence. However, that would cashier Holy, reducing average damage per hit after bludgeoning DR to 38. The upside, however, would be a shorter time-to-hack, averaging 460 hp every 5 full-round attacks - in essence, the amount of time to dispatch Dragotha with either build is about the same.
With such lousy damage-per-round, however, I need an alternative method of doling out truly massive damage per round against the known defenses...
Allen, I have been enjoying this thread very much. Funny enough, it made me think "Am I being too soft and not giving my players the thrill of knowing death hovers over them?" to which I have received the response of "ummm... no!" from my players. (Nothing better then decapitating a minotaur paladin with an iron golem.)
Turin as for things lichs fear, that would be high level wizards (Disjunction then meteor swarm, where it impacts the person not area effect around them), monks (magic and bludgeoning anyone?), cleric/rogues (from spell compendium, cleric 1st level spell allows you to backstab undead; can’t remember the name) and insane paladins dual wielding maces of disruption (low save but enough rolls and you hit a 1… bamf!). And since it is a dragon you can always hold it’s treasure hostage (animate the treasure and have the animated creature stand balanced on the edge of the green slime lake).
Allen I’ll gladly help you with ideas as well if you want but I figure you will ask if you want them. (Unless something especially devilish pops into my head.)
Allen, I have been enjoying this thread very much. Funny enough, it made me think "Am I being too soft and not giving my players the thrill of knowing death hovers over them?" to which I have received the response of "ummm... no!" from my players. (Nothing better then decapitating a minotaur paladin with an iron golem.)
Turin as for things lichs fear, that would be high level wizards (Disjunction then meteor swarm, where it impacts the person not area effect around them), monks (magic and bludgeoning anyone?), cleric/rogues (from spell compendium, cleric 1st level spell allows you to backstab undead; can’t remember the name) and insane paladins dual wielding maces of disruption (low save but enough rolls and you hit a 1… bamf!). And since it is a dragon you can always hold it’s treasure hostage (animate the treasure and have the animated creature stand balanced on the edge of the green slime lake).
Allen I’ll gladly help you with ideas as well if you want but I figure you will ask if you want them. (Unless something especially devilish pops into my head.)
A minotaur paladin ? LoL - indeed, he is fortunate that your iron golem merely decaptitated him rather than attempt to make sweet iron love to him... the minotaur's about the same size, and it's likely been a while...
Regarding your most excellent suggestions ArchLich, specifically regarding what this player has learned in-play about Dragotha:
The wizard disjunction plus meteor swarm is awesome ... presuming one has already discerned what energy types Dragotha is vulnerable to. At present, any meteor swarm would be assuming the Mastery of Energy High Arcana or a pertinent Substituted energy type on the meteor swarm in question AND guessing which type Dragotha is susceptible to. (By default, being a red dragon turned lich, it is obvious he is immune to cold and fire - I don't know about electricity, since I've not yet statted up a 3e lich or dracolich...) And of course that Mr D's helper doesn't ready an action to counterspell the disjunction...
The cleric/rogue combo could be good ... 'cept they will wiff far, far more often than the fighter. And knowing my luck - guess who eats the first disjunction ... me ... :(( Monk's in the same boat - whiff city.
Paladin dual-wielding disruption weapons ... that has promise... although the Life Ward will cold-stop the disruption part.
Animating the treasure, now... laughing is awesome. That's by far the most entertaining method of gathering it all up super-fast - have it WALK into the Portable Holes...
Allen, I have been enjoying this thread very much. Funny enough, it made me think "Am I being too soft and not giving my players the thrill of knowing death hovers over them?"
After reading your post Archlich, the thought came to me, How/Why have I arrived at the GM'ing style that I employ currently. As Turin the Mad has gamed with me for almost 25 years, he will recall that as youngsters (age 12/13) we played with our friend down the street Jim and several others about our same age. We took turns GM'ing the scripted (published) 1st edition adventures (A1-4 Slave Lords and S1 Tomb of Horrors were my specialities, while Turin ran myself and Jim through G1-3 Against the Giants and others as well). Apart from the fond memories, my reason for mentioning this is that we did not play with any older peers or adults to help us learn the "mature" angles of the game. As a result, our games were very much a GM tries to kill the PC's & the PC's try to trample over the DM; and the result was a very competitive DM vs. Players style of game, within the limits of the rules as we understood them at age 13-14. Turin was a bit above the incessant quests to murder off his friends favorite characters and was deemed the best GM for his sensible approach, (except in the case of Jerry's "Road Warrior" PC's whom Turin murdered without even giving them their permitted saving throws before butchering them heinously...).
Then, years later I came across Knights of the Dinner Table, and specifically the character of 'Weird Pete' and his heavy handed tactics in the "Temple of Horrendous Doom" and I remembered my joyful sadistic DM'ing tendencies of adolescence, and I've never looked back since:) What beautiful memories:)
The wizard disjunction plus meteor swarm is awesome ... presuming one has already discerned what energy types Dragotha is vulnerable to. At present, any meteor swarm would be assuming the Mastery of Energy High Arcana or a pertinent Substituted energy type on the meteor swarm in question AND guessing which type Dragotha is susceptible to.
Thats why I recommend the Archmage Prestige Class. It's best benefits (IMO) are the following High Arcana:
Mastery of Counterspelling: When the archmage counterspells a spell, it is turned back upon the caster as if it were fully affected by a spell turning spell. If the spell cannot be affected by spell turning, then it is merely counterspelled. This ability costs one 7th-level spell slot.
Mastery of Elements: The archmage can alter an arcane spell when cast so that it utilizes a different element from the one it normally uses. This ability can only alter a spell with the acid, cold, fire, electricity, or sonic descriptor. The spell’s casting time is unaffected. The caster decides whether to alter the spell’s energy type and chooses the new energy type when he begins casting. This ability costs one 8th-level spell slot.
Mastery of Shaping: The archmage can alter area and effect spells that use one of the following shapes: burst, cone, cylinder, emanation, or spread. The alteration consists of creating spaces within the spell’s area or effect that are not subject to the spell. The minimum dimension for these spaces is a 5-foot cube. Furthermore, any shapeable spells have a minimum dimension of 5 feet instead of 10 feet. This ability costs one 6th-level spell slot.
This means area effects abound without hitting allies. And you can change the energy type on the fly. And better dispelling is well ... better.
What can I say? This is my favourite class combo (Wizard/Archmage). A master of magic is better then just a dabbler.
Then, years later I came across Knights of the Dinner Table, and specifically the character of 'Weird Pete' and his heavy handed tactics in the "Temple of Horrendous Doom" and I remembered my joyful sadistic DM'ing tendencies of adolescence, and I've never looked back since:) What beautiful memories:)
That makes me ask, what is your most titillating memory when it comes to PC demises?
You'll be glad to hear this Allen. My girl just commented that for you DM doesn't stand for Dungeon Master but instead for Death Master.
Yep ArchLich, Wizard/Archmage is an excellent combination. Tack on Arcane Fire (supernatural untyped energy zappage ftw) and Arcane Reach, and you have a winner. (Or perhaps Spell Power, depending on your inclinations...)
I'm certain Allen will cackle gleefully at the prospect of being dubbed "Death Master". ^_^
Ugh - one of my fellow players told me on the phone a couple of hours ago (we had a LONG conversation about how deep the fertilizer pile suddenly became) that they were of the opinion that they could use a Wish to mandate an automatic failure of the Spellcraft check to activate the tablet/scroll of Disjunction by Dragotha, returning Cleric 3.0 to the living, all buffed up and ready to rock n roll.
Since I was quite sure of having a permadeathed character, I had already circular-filed the PC in question as I was posting the gruesome details above. So, my erstwhile companions-at-arms are bereft of the cleric.
I'm not sure of the 3.5 ruling on a Wish being able to accomplish that particular deed however. I vaguely recall that might have been possible in 3.0. At the moment, there is no way to be certain.
Well, not sure if this is praise or not but since I started reading your journal and that of Turin I've noticed myself becoming somehwat more bloodthirsty when DMing. You're influencing another generation of DMs. Corrupting the minds of people who haven't been playing for a long time.
Dragotha is probably resistant to all types of energy. I think that ther's a feat somewhere that allows you to turn some (maybe half) of the damage from a spell into untyped damage, thereby bypassing energy resistance/immunity.
For the Cleric/Rogue all you really need to do is take a level of Cleric (to get Grave Strike), a level of rogue and then 17 levels of fighters. You can take the Warrior Outlaw (or something like that). I think it's in the Complete Scoundrel. It allows your Rogue and Fighter levels to stack for the purposes of determining sneak attack damage and qualification for feats. That would give you a +17 BAB, Grave Strike, the ability to use some magic items like scrolls, and the sneak attack of an 18th level rogue. How you'd get past the Life Ward I'm not certain.
Well, not sure if this is praise or not but since I started reading your journal and that of Turin I've noticed myself becoming somehwat more bloodthirsty when DMing. You're influencing another generation of DMs. Corrupting the minds of people who haven't been playing for a long time.
A fine homage to the Art of Hack Arctaris. Our legacy (barring children) is in the reams of character sheets that litter the wreckages of campaigns in our wake through the world.
We all play to have fun, whether it be killing bad guys and taking thier stuff or having bad guys that kill player characters and take THIER stuff. Oh, and that whole, roleplaying thing, it's fun too.
A variant of a classic quote for the offering:
"Turin, what is best in life? "
" Killing player characters, seeing them driven before me, and hearing the lamentations of thier players. "
All according to the rules of the game of course.
Well, not sure if this is praise or not but since I started reading your journal and that of Turin I've noticed myself becoming somehwat more bloodthirsty when DMing. You're influencing another generation of DMs. Corrupting the minds of people who haven't been playing for a long time.A fine homage to the Art of Hack Arctaris. Our legacy (barring children) is in the reams of character sheets that litter the wreckages of campaigns in our wake through the world.
We all play to have fun, whether it be killing bad guys and taking thier stuff or having bad guys that kill player characters and take THIER stuff. Oh, and that whole, roleplaying thing, it's fun too.
A variant of a classic quote for the offering:
"Turin, what is best in life? "
" Killing player characters, seeing them driven before me, and hearing the lamentations of thier players. "
All according to the rules of the game of course.
Amen to that (although I could get away with killing them against the rules if I were so inclined, most of the group doesn't have a very clear grasp on sections of the rules).
Seriously, I've been wondering how much RPing happens at your table. All we ever hear about is the death (not to say I don't like the death). Do you and Allen run an immersive roleplaying campaigns or campaigns with some roleplaying and more combat?
Allen & I generally do "Diet Roleplaying", especially since we seem to have a nasty habit of picking up extra, unexpected players in the early months of a campaign that stick around for 6 - 9 months at a clip, which cuts greatly into PC/NPC interaction time.
I've run quite a few RP-heavy campaigns as well over the years, mostly in GURPS. With D&D, it is generally more difficult to get "in character" - especially when I have players that show up itching to kill things and take thier stuff. Fortunately for the Sunday group, they'll have plenty of time in another session or three to interact with a bevy of NPCs aboard the Sea Wyvern.
Generally, at least for D&D, immersion in the RP has not proven to be the big draw - it's having just enough of a veneer of RP to candy-coat the raw carnage that inevitably ensues sooner or later. At least for us.
Well, not sure if this is praise or not but since I started reading your journal and that of Turin I've noticed myself becoming somehwat more bloodthirsty when DMing. You're influencing another generation of DMs. Corrupting the minds of people who haven't been playing for a long time.
Dragotha is probably resistant to all types of energy. I think that ther's a feat somewhere that allows you to turn some (maybe half) of the damage from a spell into untyped damage, thereby bypassing energy resistance/immunity.
For the Cleric/Rogue all you really need to do is take a level of Cleric (to get Grave Strike), a level of rogue and then 17 levels of fighters. You can take the Warrior Outlaw (or something like that). I think it's in the Complete Scoundrel. It allows your Rogue and Fighter levels to stack for the purposes of determining sneak attack damage and qualification for feats. That would give you a +17 BAB, Grave Strike, the ability to use some magic items like scrolls, and the sneak attack of an 18th level rogue. How you'd get past the Life Ward I'm not certain.
My initial build to re-enter play is an archer:
Wood Elf Fighter 6/Arcane Archer 9/Order of the Bow Initiate 4
2 flaws from UA
Feats:
* Lvl 1 = Night Haunt (to meet the arcane spellcasting requirement)
* Flaw 1 = Point Blank Shot
* Flaw 2 = Precise Shot
Fighter 1 = Weapon Focus (longbow, which also covers composite longbows according to the PHB)
Fighter 2 = Rapid Shot
Level 3 = Dodge
Fighter 4 = Weapon Specialization (longbow)
Level 6 = Mobility; trained in Far Shot
Fighter 6 = Shot on the Run
Level 9 = Ranged Weapon Mastery (piercing)
Level 12 = Elusive Target; trained in Manyshot
Level 15 = Improved Rapid Shot; trained in Improved Precise Shot
Level 18 = Penetrating Shot
Order of the Bow Initiate 4 = Greater Weapon Focus (longbow) as a bonus feat.
Base Fort +12, Base Reflex +12, Base Will +11, BAB +19
The class features that matter for this character are:
Close Combat Shot (duh, no provoking for perforating threatening foes)
Enhance Arrow +5 (all my arrows are +5 ... saves gp's on gear!)
Hail of Arrows (to perforate multiple foes that are about to fall over)
The other stuff : ranged precision +2d8, imbue arrow, seeker arrow and phase arrow are limited-use goodies.
Naked, with a non-MW/non-magical composite longbow and arrows, and no ability scores, that gives me some nice baselines to work with.
Composite Longbow range increment of [(110'+20')x1.5=] 195 ft.
* ranged full-attack iteration starts at +28 (19, +4 feats, +5 enhance arrow) going to +29 at 30 ft. due to point-blank shot.
If improved rapid shot full-attack, +28/+28/+23/+18/+13.
If manyshot, then that is +24/+24 for 2 arrows, 22/22/22 for 3 or 20/20/20/20 for 4 arrows.
Presuming I roll half-decent ability scores (say a 16), and counting elf DEX bonus and 4 from level advancement, that gives me a DEX score of 22 (+6), not counting inherent or enhancement bonuses, bumping the baseline "nekkid" bow AB to +34 (+35 at point-blank range) with a 4-arrow manyshot of 26/26/26/26 (27/27/27/27 @ PB).
Doing the obvious, get a +5 bow and magical adamantine undead bane arrows, tacks on another +7 AB for a baseline of +41 (+42 @ PB) against Dragotha. A 4-arrow manyshot clocks in at 33/33/33/33 (34x4 @ PB).
Factor in a +6 enhancement bonus to DEX tacks on another +3. Baseline goes to +44 (+45) with the 4-arrow manyshot at +36 (+37).
A +4 inherent DEX bonus tacks on another +2, giving +46 or +38 for the 4-arrow manyshot.
At this point, I'm within half-way decent spitting distance of perforating Dragotha factoring in no outside buffs - not bad really.
Not sure I want to go with this build, but definitely an interesting exercise.
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The only way to improve that melee AB is from divine and arcane buff spells (Recitation, Aura of Vitality, Prayer, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Haste and so on) that I frankly cannot count on my 'comrades at arms' to be bothered to cast on a "mere Fighter".
EEEEKK!
Assuming that statement is true, or at least 'mostly accurate'...that would go a long way toward explaining the 71(!) PC deaths. Far more so than "the DM is a meeeaaany...Boo Hoo!".
In our current SCAP, we've had 6(?) deaths, plus a cohort (twice), by level 15, and most of them were from freakish crits or "anything but a 1" saves. And I wouldn't claim we're particularly well-co-ordinated, either. 0ur 'tactics' in the infamous Kuo-Toa temple seemed to follow the 'Headless Chickens On A Hot Tin Roof' stance...
The only way to improve that melee AB is from divine and arcane buff spells (Recitation, Aura of Vitality, Prayer, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Haste and so on) that I frankly cannot count on my 'comrades at arms' to be bothered to cast on a "mere Fighter".EEEEKK!
Assuming that statement is true, or at least 'mostly accurate'...that would go a long way toward explaining the 71(!) PC deaths. Far more so than "the DM is a meeeaaany...Boo Hoo!".
In our current SCAP, we've had 6(?) deaths, plus a cohort (twice), by level 15, and most of them were from freakish crits or "anything but a 1" saves. And I wouldn't claim we're particularly well-co-ordinated, either. 0ur 'tactics' in the infamous Kuo-Toa temple seemed to follow the 'Headless Chickens On A Hot Tin Roof' stance...
Correct Tycho, I've noticed a remarkable lack of anything other than 'immediate offense' mentalities amongst the majority of the players that belly up to the table. Were I to play a fighter ... he'd spent most of his time wiffing Dragotha, 'cause I do not believe I can count on any of them to bother with buffing spells. There are times when charging/leap attacking/pouncing into the fray against the baddies works - even works well from time to time. It's when they seemingly refuse to learn from my own examples off the power of buffing awesomeness that it gets to be hair-pullingly frustrating.
Having fairly quickly done up a couple of fighter-type builds, and of course with the present party composition in mind, it seems likely I'll have to go with another caster character of some stripe. I know I can do such a build so as to have a reasonable expectation of 'dealing' with Dragotha and his trio of henchmonsters, just not as a fighter type of character. I am personally of the opinion that i cannot rely on my own party members to do the kinds of things that benefit the group as a whole, and thus permit the group as a whole to substantially participate in the big showdown with a BBEG of such historied prominence as Dragotha.
As I've stated before, Dragotha to me is THE big fight of the Age of Worms in terms of the significance of the foe, no small part of which is I fondly recall that horrifying visage on the Erol Otus map in White Plume Mountain from childhood. Kyuss, personally, I couldn't care less for other than as a tactical exercise. Dragotha, I care about fragging a great deal.
Allen, I have been enjoying this thread very much. Funny enough, it made me think "Am I being too soft and not giving my players the thrill of knowing death hovers over them?"
After reading your post Archlich, the thought came to me, How/Why have I arrived at the GM'ing style that I employ currently. As Turin the Mad has gamed with me for almost 25 years, he will recall that as youngsters (age 12/13) we played with our friend down the street Jim and several others about our same age. We took turns GM'ing the scripted (published) 1st edition adventures (A1-4 Slave Lords and S1 Tomb of Horrors were my specialities, while Turin ran myself and Jim through G1-3 Against the Giants and others as well). Apart from the fond memories, my reason for mentioning this is that we did not play with any older peers or adults to help us learn the "mature" angles of the game. As a result, our games were very much a GM tries to kill the PC's & the PC's try to trample over the DM; and the result was a very competitive DM vs. Players style of game, within the limits of the rules as we understood them at age 13-14. Turin was a bit above the incessant quests to murder off his friends favorite characters and was deemed the best GM for his sensible approach, (except in the case of Jerry's "Road Warrior" PC's whom Turin murdered without even giving them their permitted saving throws before butchering them heinously...).
Then, years later I came across Knights of the Dinner Table, and specifically the character of 'Weird Pete' and his heavy handed tactics in the "Temple of Horrendous Doom" and I remembered my joyful sadistic DM'ing tendencies of adolescence, and I've never looked back since:) What beautiful memories:)
ROFLMAO. Ok, talk about old memories...
Yes, poor Jerry was talking soooo much smack about his precious 'Road Warrior' knock-off characters and made the mistake of going into H2: Bloodstone Mines. With only a few minutes spent perusing the 1e psionics materials in the DMG, a summoned balor proceeded to do something heinous psionically to the entire party of Jerry's. Missing (albiet conveniently in hindsight) on the permitted a saving throw thing, Jerry's characters proceeded to murder each other, stand there or run screaming into the molten-hot lava tubes not far behind them. They all died hideously, and much cackling laughter was had at Jerry's expense. The specifics two decades later I don't recall, other than one of the PCs emptying a fully-charged Staff of Striking into a stunned fellow PCs face in a fit of homicidal rage.
Later, poor Jerry and Allen gunned after a home-brewed adventure - thier having requested to chase down Heward's Mystical Organ - that was hideously brutal. I had a wu-jen lich with a squad of go-zu oni in the main chamber (after they'd gone through heck's half-acre plowing through the plane of Limbo). Fire Shuriken spells flew thick and fast, the wu-jen was utterly brutal and Allen made off with an artifact that conveniently fit into a portable hole. Later, of course, he examined it only to realize it was a red herring. They never tried going after an artifact again after that.
You'll be glad to hear this Allen. My girl just commented that for you DM doesn't stand for Dungeon Master but instead for Death Master.
Why thank you Arch Lich & Girlfriend. It warms my heart to know that your girl appreciates my "hard work":)
As for my favorite memory as a GM, its hard to identify just one specific instance, but there are two that stand out above most others. The first being both back in the 80's/1st Edition when I ran Tomb of Horrors AND the two times in 2001/2002 that I ran Return to the Tomb of Horrors for 3.0. Tomb of Horrors/RttToH is one of my two favorite adventures TSR/Wizards has ever produced, and I have slaughtered dozens of characters between the multiple times I've GM'd it in 1st and 3rd edition. My second favorite experience of GM'ing is when I use my & my players' favorite villain, who they've nicknamed "Sir Sean", a 10th level Fey-Touched human Fighter who wields a Mercurial Greatsword. Sir Sean is loosely based on the character of the "Green Knight" as portrayed in the movie "Sword of the Valiant" with Sean Connery as the green knight. I didn't originally call him 'sir sean', but that was what my players all dubbed him after a player drew an illustration that depicted him as Connery (at my request). Sir Sean has dealt the Killing Blow (meaning, regardless of other enemies who may have damaged a PC in combat, he was the enemy combatant who swung, damaged and actually killed the PC in question) to more Player Characters than ANY other villain or monster I've ever used. I only started using him in 3rd edition, and he's personally dealt the killing blow to 15 player characters in the six times I've used him since 2001. He will usually make one cameo appearance in each campaign I now run, to have a crack at killing a few more PC's.
Well, not sure if this is praise or not but since I started reading your journal and that of Turin I've noticed myself becoming somehwat more bloodthirsty when DMing. You're influencing another generation of DMs. Corrupting the minds of people who haven't been playing for a long time.
I'm glad you have been inspired Arctaris. It is my hope that the traditions of the game are still alive and well in the younger players. The 'old school'/1st edition flavor of the game, which is the main theme behind the Kenzer Co./Hackmaster system; is my preferred type of game. I've opted to apply that 'mood' to my 3.5 games, rather then use the Hackmaster system itself.
Well, not sure if this is praise or not but since I started reading your journal and that of Turin I've noticed myself becoming somehwat more bloodthirsty when DMing. You're influencing another generation of DMs. Corrupting the minds of people who haven't been playing for a long time.Amen to that (although I could get away with killing them against the rules if I were so inclined, most of the group doesn't have a very clear grasp on sections of the rules).
Seriously, I've been wondering how much RPing happens at your table. All we ever hear about is the death (not to say I don't like the death). Do you and Allen run an immersive roleplaying campaigns or campaigns with some roleplaying and more combat?
I have never been much for "RP'ing". However, Storyline and plot are big with me, and I always try to provide a good description of what the PC's 'see.' But if a PLAYER wants to "talk" or "Role-play" with an NPC, I basically tell the player to 'tell me the jist of what your character says/does to/with the NPC.
I do NOT have "conversations" 'in character' with anyone at the table, save in very rare instances where I will make a remark in the villain's voice to tell the Player that his character is about to die horribly. Those players who insist on the "role-playing" experience, I refer to another GM who will better accomodate their ridiculous Thespian-wanna-be tendencies.
EEEEKK!Assuming that statement is true, or at least 'mostly accurate'...that would go a long way toward explaining the 71(!) PC deaths. Far more so than "the DM is a meeeaaany...Boo Hoo!".
In our current SCAP, we've had 6(?) deaths, plus a cohort (twice), by level 15, and most of them were from freakish crits or "anything but a 1" saves. And I wouldn't claim we're particularly well-co-ordinated, either. 0ur 'tactics' in the infamous Kuo-Toa temple seemed to follow the 'Headless Chickens On A Hot Tin Roof' stance...
Tycho, slaughtering PC's is definitely linked to the GM "looking for opportunities." If a Player plays a low-powered, by-the-book PC, then I'm more apt to let the player alone. Having a large number of Players who play/want to play High-Powered PC's who shred the bad guys, I then look for ways to fairly waste them in accordance with the rules. If you're a GM who doesn't like or is indifferent to killing PC's, then you likely don't look for the opportunities to do so. I greatly enjoy killing PC's and look for almost any opportunity to do so, according to the rules of the game. I will study my books for spells or tactics that will likely result in putting the PC's at a serious disadvantage or lead to their destruction. In week 1 of this Age of Worms campaign for example, a 1st level home-brewed Chaotic Evil Halfling Ranger, killed multiple PC's, because I looked for and exploited Player mistakes, and made use of the rules regarding of all things "Lighting/illumination ranges of a torch (bright & shadowy). There are plenty of opportunities to fairly trash PC's. As a Killer GM, it is your responsibility to FIND THEM!!!
Players failure to adequately buff each other is a problem for my group, and probably for many others, but keep in mind that my players win more encounters than they lose. Non-buffing is far from the only thing that does my bumbling lot in repeatedly.
I have never been much for "RP'ing". However, Storyline and plot are big with me, and I always try to provide a good description of what the PC's 'see.' But if a PLAYER wants to "talk" or "Role-play" with an NPC, I basically tell the player to 'tell me the jist of what your character says/does to/with the NPC.
I do NOT have "conversations" 'in character' with anyone at the table, save in very rare instances where I will make a remark in the villain's voice to tell the Player that his character is about to die horribly. Those players who insist on the "role-playing" experience, I refer to another GM who will better accomodate their ridiculous Thespian-wanna-be tendencies.
Yeah, I like a strong storyline and plot as well. I try to give good descriptions of what they see and what things feel like, sound like ect. In general I just tell them the gist of what the NPC says unless its an important NPC. Then I try to do more of a conversation style.
I tend to be less forgiving to PCs who don't get into character and are just munchkin hack n'slashers. I like combat but when you just sit there and look bored while I advance the plot I'm gonna kill you without a second thought when the opportunity comes up.
Turin, as for my recollection of the two events you listed: in the Bloodstone Mines (H2), you didn't even have a Balor. It was a Marilith who Mind Blasted all characters present. You (Turin) elected to avoid informing the player in question that Mind Blasts allowed saving throws:) As a result, Road Warrior number 1 went charging into a tunnel presently occupied by the Stone Eater, and was presumed killed, though no dice were rolled. The PC cleric went insane and proceeded to beat the other (Stunned and helpless) Road Warrior PC to death, emptying his staff of Striking into him in the process, and said cleric then ran off and was presumably killed by all of the other summoned demons. And make no mistake folks, Turin was grinning from ear to ear the whole time. He hated those stupid player characters and he was not missing his opportunity to rub them out permanently.
In the adventure to the Outer Plane of Limbo to recover Heward's Mystic Organ, we lost two, maybe three characters on the way to the organ, and lost six of the remaining seven in the room with the Oriental Lich (Wu Jen) and his Oni/Ogre Mage thugs. My fighter PC alone got the fake organ in the portable hole and hit off a plane shift to get home alive. At the time, we both believed the organ to be genuine. Later, after closer reading, we both realized that the real Hewards' Mystic Organ would never fit into a mere portable hole, and thus declared the organ I had acquired to therefore be a fake. Rightly so, I suspect... At any rate, Turin once again was smiling formidably after greasing 9 of 10 characters over the course of an afternoon...
Yeah, I like a strong storyline and plot as well. I try to give good descriptions of what they see and what things feel like, sound like ect. In general I just tell them the gist of what the NPC says unless its an important NPC. Then I try to do more of a conversation style.
I tend to be less forgiving to PCs who don't get into character and are just munchkin hack n'slashers. I like combat but when you just sit there and look bored while I advance the plot I'm gonna kill you without a second thought when the opportunity comes up.Arctaris, I have always enjoyed the tactical combat element of the game over just about everything else. For me, sitting down for a four-hour Hack-a-thon fight is delightful. I love the game of Chess, and a well done combat in the 3.0/3.5 systems are 'Strategic' in nature, and I enjoy that Strategic quality very much. Combine that with a good storyline and setting, and I'm good to go. I have NO problem spending an evening "Clearing out a dungeon level" that has little other purpose than gaining treasure and experience points (I'm very happy to do so, and I regret that most/all GM's I've come across, save Turin don't run "simplitic" adventues such as these anymore. I'm therefore very much an "Old School gamer."
Arctaris, I have always enjoyed the tactical combat element of the game over just about everything else. For me, sitting down for a four-hour Hack-a-thon fight is delightful. I love the game of Chess, and a well done combat in the 3.0/3.5 systems are 'Strategic' in nature, and I enjoy that Strategic quality very much. Combine that with a good storyline and setting, and I'm good to go. I have NO problem spending an evening "Clearing out a dungeon level" that has little other purpose than gaining treasure and experience points (I'm very happy to do so, and I regret that most/all GM's I've come across, save Turin don't run "simplitic" adventues such as these anymore. I'm therefore very much an "Old School gamer."Yeah, I like a strong storyline and plot as well. I try to give good descriptions of what they see and what things feel like, sound like ect. In general I just tell them the gist of what the NPC says unless its an important NPC. Then I try to do more of a conversation style.
I tend to be less forgiving to PCs who don't get into character and are just munchkin hack n'slashers. I like combat but when you just sit there and look bored while I advance the plot I'm gonna kill you without a second thought when the opportunity comes up.Mostly the same here, although I do enjoy some lower-key RPing. I love the tactical elements in the game but unfortunately no one else in my group really takes joy in tactics or is good at them. I've got I couple hackers but they just stand there and exchange blows with the opponents. Its too bad you play do far away. I'd love to play in a game that actually uses tactics and has a merciless DM (the other regular DM in my group regularly takes pity on PCs).
Ironically Arctaris, both of my character deaths in Allen's Age of Worms are attributable (in a good fashion) to being an honest player among whatever other traits are attributable. Allen and I both found it hideously convenient that ALL the other PCs *made* thier not-insignificantly difficult reflex saves against the flamestrike double-whammy that reduced Cleric 1.0 (The Dwarf with No Name) into a charcoal briquette.
While the player of Cleric 3.0 murmured the dire circumstance my cleric was in at the table, it was making sure of how badly I was hosed that confirmed the permadeath (when I fact-checked the DMG write-up on the stuff at home very late the next night).
I may well go with Allen's not-exactly subtle hint posted earlier and make up a non-untermensch character to pepper Dragotha with arrows for "round 3" as it is HIGHLY unlikely that the surviving MEPS will last much longer than a snowman in a blast furnace. If they manage to drop him under thier present circumstances legitimately, I will be truly amazed.
That's a reasonable proposition Turin. I'll be bringing a non-remarkable PC archer into S.T.2 in November as well. I have in the past 'taken it easier' on PC's who are reasonable and don't regularly 'push the envelope' in terms of class & race selections, and magic items used in the game; and who don't argue incessantly over even mundane points of disagreement. Most of the other players want to play tanks, and they can expect to die horribly for their trouble... The only problem is that sometimes the modest characters get "caught in the blast" when I'm going after the ridiculous ones (as typified by Turin's Dwarf Cleric with the two Flame Strikes). Good defenses is always a plus, and George's Dwarf Cleric #3 is a perfect example of a PC who can pull his own weight, and is very hard to get rid of for the GM.
To return to a proir post, the only semi-RP'ing campaign I have run in all of 3rd edition was my "Dark Age Knights/Sir Sean's Quest" back in 2005, that you (Turin) were not present for most of, being stuck at the Outpost at the time... Naturally, that campaign was Haru's favorite, which he's asked me to continue several times...
Ironically Arctaris, both of my character deaths in Allen's Age of Worms are attributable (in a good fashion) to being an honest player among whatever other traits are attributable. Allen and I both found it hideously convenient that ALL the other PCs *made* thier not-insignificantly difficult reflex saves against the flamestrike double-whammy that reduced Cleric 1.0 (The Dwarf with No Name) into a charcoal briquette.
While the player of Cleric 3.0 murmured the dire circumstance my cleric was in at the table, it was making sure of how badly I was hosed that confirmed the permadeath (when I fact-checked the DMG write-up on the stuff at home very late the next night).
I may well go with Allen's not-exactly subtle hint posted earlier and make up a non-untermensch character to pepper Dragotha with arrows for "round 3" as it is HIGHLY unlikely that the surviving MEPS will last much longer than a snowman in a blast furnace. If they manage to drop him under thier present circumstances legitimately, I will be truly amazed.
Now that I've had a decent bit of 'chill time' to ponder the situation, I do believe I shall go with *gasp* ... an archer. Not like I can't dust off Cleric 2.0 if 'round 3' fails after all...
Just a bit of a random question then, is Turin's itinerant archer just going to show up? Perhaps someone following the PCs up to this point?
For some reason I am very compelled by the idea that he could be an assassin sent by Prince Zeech from Alhaster or someone with a grudge against the PCs and only is trying to help them so that he can kill them himself. A little random, but I like that kind of irony in games.
Just a bit of a random question then, is Turin's itinerant archer just going to show up? Perhaps someone following the PCs up to this point?
For some reason I am very compelled by the idea that he could be an assassin sent by Prince Zeech from Alhaster or someone with a grudge against the PCs and only is trying to help them so that he can kill them himself. A little random, but I like that kind of irony in games.
I do rather like that concept myself Yasha - I think I'll retain the Hail of Arrows for just such a situation... after all, archers generally have no alignment requirements... I'll see what Allen thinks of this idea before going further with it however.
The way I see it, Allen could not want you to kill everyone else (not too likely) or he'll agree. Depending on what happens, it might give the two of you that chance to both be on the same side of the DM screen again, kinda like I mentioned a while back.
The way I see it, Allen could not want you to kill everyone else (not too likely) or he'll agree. Depending on what happens, it might give the two of you that chance to both be on the same side of the DM screen again, kinda like I mentioned a while back.
Ah, found out today his ancient computer is brainfarting mightily of late, thus his lack of posts lately. I gave him a few pointers, hopefull those will fix his desktop...
Figure on an archer character followed by either an arcane caster or a druid. Frankly, I'm hoping to simply keep the archer alive until the end-game.
Although I might have to reconsider the build I initially did up, as other "archer goodies" have come to light since I last looked at the concept...
You could also logically extend the 'I am Inigo Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to die.' approach is having the Archer realize that if he doesn't help these idiots, the world really might end. So, first, help kill the dragon, then as he is going to start hosing them, realize there is some serious offal getting ready to go down.
This would give some interesting RP opportunities, even if you guys are just Diet RPing, using a few choice lines from Commando won't hurt. Like turning to one of the other characters and saying, 'Cleric #3, I'm going to kill you last.'
Thus, should he survive, Archer-boy has motivation to stay with the group (however thinly veiled) and maybe there will be a point after the endgame, should you all survive to the epilogue, to try and take out some fools.
Which 'new' archer goodies are you referring to?
I do admit that a straight Ranger with access to their higher level spells looks like a very attractive to me right now. Kinda what I'd like to play.
You could also logically extend the 'I am Inigo Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to die.' approach is having the Archer realize that if he doesn't help these idiots, the world really might end. So, first, help kill the dragon, then as he is going to start hosing them, realize there is some serious offal getting ready to go down.
This would give some interesting RP opportunities, even if you guys are just Diet RPing, using a few choice lines from Commando won't hurt. Like turning to one of the other characters and saying, 'Cleric #3, I'm going to kill you last.'
Thus, should he survive, Archer-boy has motivation to stay with the group (however thinly veiled) and maybe there will be a point after the endgame, should you all survive to the epilogue, to try and take out some fools.
LMAO - oh, that'd be a most excellent way to cement the dissolution of the group were that the objective Yasha. <weg>
" Remember when I said I would kill you last ? " " Yeah ? " " I lied. " (Arrow of Death to the face)
Which 'new' archer goodies are you referring to?
I do admit that a straight Ranger with access to their higher level spells looks like a very attractive to me right now. Kinda what I'd like to play.
Yeah, a Fighter 4/Ranger 15 with a few choice equippage items would do fairly hideous amounts of damage at a staggering range increment. The other build, while lacking the favored enemy damage bonuses per shot, would get Close Quarters Shot (from Order of the Bow Initiate), a rather crucial ability against so many Huge, Gargantuan and mayhap even Colossal foes. And Arcane Archer 9 does wonders to save gp expenditures on magical ammunition...
Given many published high-level adventures' penchant for staging the BBEG in very close quarters environments, lacking CQS will probably prove a tad fatal in extremely short order.
However, Hide in Plain Sight from sufficient quantities of Ranger levels is pretty nasty - but not near enough against the kinds of Spot/Listen bonuses the BBEGs are going to be packing, let alone stuff like blindsight, tremorsense (from being a Worm that Walks made Colossal ... how that is possible based on the statblock in the ELHB I have no idea of course - divine salient ability perhaps ?) and whathaveyou.
At a quick guesstimation, +12 DEX, 22 ranks, +15 items gives a Hide/Listen bonus of +49 (assuming 0 armor check penalty). Not accouting for Ranger spells that add more (although those usually do so by terrain), Dragotha's +58 means he doesn't fail with any reliability. Even with a nat 19 die roll that's a 68, meaning "D" only needs a nat 10 to place me, more if at significant range. Since my dice are seldom that kind as a rule, I would presume perhaps a nat 11 on my roll totalling a 60 Hide/Move Silent from Hide in Plain Sight, meaning "D" needs a paltry nat 2 on each check plus 1 per 10 feet away Mr Ranger is. I am certain (although of course I do not have the write-up) that Kyuss' bonuses in that department are at least on par with his favored minion's - and I personally assume being a demi-gawd his bonuses are likely about a +70.
I don't think I am giving anything away (and I am not looking at Dawn of a New Age right now) by guessing you're not going to be hiding from Kyuss.
That seems like a statistical impossibility to me.
I don't think I am giving anything away (and I am not looking at Dawn of a New Age right now) by guessing you're not going to be hiding from Kyuss.
That seems like a statistical impossibility to me.
Basically, that's the crux Mr Archer faces while I build him. Any ranger-based build is, at least to an extent, relying upon Hide in Plain Sight at high level play to do a great deal of the dirty work, especially against favored enemy critters.
Thus, my build will be relying upon a combination of mobility, accurate firing range and reliable damage-per-arrow.
On behalf of Allen, for a slightly early "Alloween", stay tuned sometime tomorrow-ish for the latest casualty report! Same Hack Time, Same Hack Channel... or something ...
I'll be there George! Looks around George? ... George? ... Where are you George ...
We got some AoW action coming up?
If you can feasibly do it, post your charcter Turin.
We got some AoW action coming up?
If you can feasibly do it, post your charcter Turin.
Not until after Allen frags poor Lenny, Gentle Readers, not until after. ^_^
Oooo I can't wait! JollyDoc postponed his Savage Tide update on enworld (whaddaya mean, you're not following it?) so this is doubly welcome!
Linky ?