Hi all,
I'm currently running SCAP and one of my PC is playing and Human Bard reicarnated to Baboon - using an enhanced reincarnation spell from a Dragon web enhancement (thus being an Animal Type).
Anyway, now the wizard in the group is wondering about this spell combo: He wants to Polymorph the baboon into a human and then cast on him a Permanent Enlarge Person, thus when the Polymorph spell ends they will have an enlarged baboon. According to the rules, spells only check their target at the moment of being cast, so it seems possible.
What do you think? Would you allow this combo? Do I miss any rule?
Q. (sorry for my bad english)
The letter of the rules allows this but now the spirit. I would rule that the subject is enlarged only while they are humanoid and not animal. After all a magical effect (Enlarge Person) is in operation that does not effect the subject's natural form and therefore is simply placed 'in status' until the subject's form changes.<P>Think of this if you allow it though. A dragon polymorphs into a human, casts permanent enlarge person on herself and then changed back to a dragon. Eek
hmm, i would treat them as a stack meaning the first spell is imbedded in the player and the second spell is imbedded in the first spell cast so when the first spell ends it breaks the second spell which no longer has a link to the player; so both end; that is how I would handle it and my ruling were I gming this situation.
I agree with Jason Horton, and having had a player who was playing a halfing and wished for a permanent reduce person, I'd just like to point out the horrid social obstacles that would have to be overcome. It's arguably worse for an enlarged subject, as they would have trouble fitting comfortably inside buildings and, more importantly, dungeons.
I don't think it's an issue. It wouldn't really be any different than making permanent an Enlarge Person on the guy as a human, with the minor exception of having natural weapons do a bit more damage.
Plus, the character is going to be paying through the nose for armor; double for unusual body type (sorry, but a baboon is not humanoid), and - if the baboon ends up being large - double for that too.
So... let him do it. Whether it violates the spirit of the rules or the letter, the end effect is it's not going to gain him any more advantage for this combo than if it was just Enlarge Person permanenced onto a human. Or rather, the extra benefit isn't all that significant.
So... let him do it. Whether it violates the spirit of the rules or the letter, the end effect is it's not going to gain him any more advantage for this combo than if it was just Enlarge Person permanenced onto a human. Or rather, the extra benefit isn't all that significant.
You are right Xellan. I let him do it. Let's see what they do went no guard city let them pass with a Large baboon...I think social interactions, dungeon incomodity (squizing all around) and lack of equiptment are enough challenges to balance this combo.
More than enough, really. Having DMed for people who like to try these bizarre combos before, I can say with certainty that most of the things that seem like they'll be a great advantage generally ending up leaving the character worse off. There's a reason no one else ever does them, you know.
More than enough, really. Having DMed for people who like to try these bizarre combos before, I can say with certainty that most of the things that seem like they'll be a great advantage generally ending up leaving the character worse off. There's a reason no one else ever does them, you know.
True, but there's also a reason these people want to try them. A DM shouldn't be afraid of inflicting some form of unpleasantries in the form of social stigma, enforcing equipment costs, and the like, but you shouldn't seek to outright punish them for their choice either. They're still a PC, XP was burned to make this happen, and they're (one hopes) trying to make a valuable contribution to the game with all their difficulties /and/ newfound capabilities.
So use these problems as a challenge rather than a punishment, and don't hesitate to reward them like you would any of the other PCs. Otherwise, both you and the player would've been better off if you'd just said no in the first place.
Most importantly I think the application of a spell that applies only to a "person" will fail if the type of the creature changes, permanence or not. If a spell can't affect a certain target it will fail as soon as the change happens.
Here's another point--aren't baboons small creatures? I certainly think they're closer to halfling-gnome size than they are to human. So at best you'd get a baboon that's a size catagory larger than it would be--or rather human sized.
Granted the idea of a preposterously huge baboon stomping around having problems with everything isn't such a problem, but the precident could bite you later when another player applies the same loophole in a different way. Often consistancy pays dividends later, even when the effects in this particular situation would take care of themselves in play.
So yeah, I wouldn't punish the players for trying to be clever. That's always a mistake. Likewise I wouldn't reward them just because they're player characters and so things should work out for them. Really I would recommend trying to think through how the magic would consistantly work and adjudicate things as fairly and impartially as possible.
Then again, looking up Enlarge--it seems that the spell isn't limited to humanoids after all. When using Permanancy it says that an Enlarge spell can be permanized on "yourself, another creature, or an object as appropriate".
So no polymorph required. Just change the monkey into a bigger monkey and you're set.
Most importantly I think the application of a spell that applies only to a "person" will fail if the type of the creature changes, permanence or not. If a spell can't affect a certain target it will fail as soon as the change happens.
I'm afraid you are wrong here. From FAQ section @ WotC site:
If, while under the effect of a spell that depends on type
(such as hold person), my character is transformed into a
different creature type by polymorph*, does the spell’s
effect remain?
Yes. A spell only checks to see if you are a legal target
when it is cast. If you become an illegal target later (such as via the polymorph spell), the spell remains in effect.
Here's another point--aren't baboons small creatures? I certainly think they're closer to halfling-gnome size than they are to human. So at best you'd get a baboon that's a size catagory larger than it would be--or rather human sized.
No, baboon stat block state it as a Medium sized Animal.
Then again, looking up Enlarge--it seems that the spell isn't limited to humanoids after all. When using Permanancy it says that an Enlarge spell can be permanized on "yourself, another creature, or an object as appropriate".
Yes, but in this particular case, "as appropriate" means a Humanoid criature per "Enlarge Person" description.
So no polymorph required. Just change the monkey into a bigger monkey and you're set.
So I think, Polymorph is still necessary.