I was wondering what others suggestions are when it comes to rolling in front of your players (or not, as the case may be).
I am of the view that there are times when a DM needs to roll behind a DM Screen (that's sort of why DM Screens were invented).
Example: PC's walk into (hypothetical) dungeon corridor. There is a small vent through which gas comes if a pressure pad in the floor is activated. If I ask the PC to make a spot check and they roll a 1, they know that:
A; There was something there to see and
B; They didn't see it.
So a DM rolling secretly does solve things like Move Silently, Hide, Spot checks for example.
But what about combat - should you make rolls for NPCs behind the screen or not?
One member of our group has a bit of a problem with metagame thinking (EG: Well you hit it with a 15, but she didn't with a 13, so the orc's AC is 14!). If I roll a critical against him behind the screen he demands I roll again, but if I miss there are no complaints (though he is by no means the only one to do this - just the loudest).
Are DM's justified in making all their rolls (and in some cases, some of the players) behind a screen? Do I just need to (nicely) remind players that the DM's rulings are final?
NOTE: With rolling for the Hide, Spot etc checks, what you CAN do is get each player to roll d20 thirty times, write all numbers down on a piece of paper in order, and cross each one off as they are used up; but I am mainly concerned with combat. Should I do the same thing for NPC attackers?
- Tah
As the DM, it's entirely your option to roll behind a screen.
As the DM, you're the boss, so you get to make, break and bend the rules at your discretion. (-- But only to enhance the enjoyment of the game for all involved)
Your player needs to understand that this isn't the kind of game where if you win, he loses. This is an interactive game, not a game where one person outscores another.
I always roll my NPC combat rolls behind a screen. You don't want the metagamers to know their foes too well (like how much of an "attack" bonus they have).
Yes, I've heard of the pre-rolling method, and that is perfectly fine. It's what ever you are happiest with.
Your the DM. 'Nuff said. I'ts your game, you roll how you see fit as long as the game is fun and continues to be so. I always roll behind the screen it makes the players crazy.
I drive my players nuts with the suspense. Have fun with it.
Yes, roll behind the screen, everything. But be sure that your players do not feel betrayed. If you fudge the dice in the NPCs favor often enough, your players may become suspicious.
In case one of your players doubts a good roll, once in a while you could lift the screen without touching your dice and show him that you do not fudge. If they insist on you rerolling in front of them and you could not convince them that this is a bad idea for game fun, then reroll in front of them, but also insist on rerolling failed rolls, so they see that everything has two sides (and laugh out loud if the dice come up even better;-)
In regards to this metagame thinking, do not worry too much, of course your players will figure out after some attack rolls what the AC is, so if it is just some monster, I often enough just tell them the AC. Also if it is a save or die situation, like a save against some spell, I let the players know what they have to roll, thus tension rises while they watch the die coming to a halt and hoping for that number they need.
Just do not fudge the dice in order to favor your NPCs and Monsters (or at least only very very rarely). And yes, everyone should understand, that RPG is not player against DM, but DM for and with players.
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It's a dungeon master's perogitive to roll hidden dice any time he or she wants to. Also as an unrepentant metagame thinker AND pre-combat pseudo-actuary, one who does card counting for armor class would serve everyone well, including him or herself, to not blurt out the answer for the people who want to suspend their disbelief. Blabbing out a.c.'s also leads to dungeon masters hiding all their die rolls.
I also think it is your decision if you roll your dice openly or behind the screen. I roll behind the screen most of the time, my players don´t need to know what I´m rolling.
The AC discussion could be avoided or at least lessened by using the optional rule that you roll for your AC also every round - not "Taking 10" as the standard rules do. But this will of course prolong combat.
Stefan
I figure that PCs would rapidly figure out how "good" an opponent is at fighting, so I usually make my combat rolls in the open. While blurting out the AC of a monster is meta-game thinking, it does speed up things when the players can rapidly figure out for themselves if they've hit or not.
Other rolls, such as hide/listen/disable device...I make those in secret because not doing so gives away too much information.
I have two personal rules for dice rolling:
1) I never roll dice for the players. To me, it feels like taking things out of their hands; if they roll a 1, it's tough luck, but if I roll a 1 for them, I've somehow screwed them over.
2) I roll all my dice out in the open, and request (but not demand) my players to do the same. This started several years ago when we suspected one of the players was cheating by fudging rolls, but we couldn't kick her out of the group for various reasons.
Now, keep in mind. My players are mature enough that when they roll a 1 on a Spot check, they grumble under their breath and move along as though they didn't see anything. If your players won't (or can't) do this, you need another solution.
One simple solution: Make sure you have all the important modifiers for every PC (the ones you want to keep secret). When you need them to make one of those checks, ask them to roll a d20 and add in the modifier yourself. They'll still know they rolled crappy - but they won't know what's it for.
I roll all combat rolls in front of the players. Apart from anything else, the tension it causes when players are low on hit points is awesome. You can't be accused of being hard or lenient, only fair.
I have rolled both combat and non-combat rolls behind the DM screen since the beginning and never had too much of a problem with it. If natural 20s were coming up fairly often in a particular session (hey, what can I say? Some nights my dice are hot!), I would lift the screen without touching the dice just to reassure the players that I was being fair and not overly cruel.
Then a few months ago our playing surface became over-crowded and it became increasingly difficult to roll behind the screen so I (gulp) switched to rolling everything except trap/treasure-related randoms out in the open. It took a little while for me to feel comfortable with this, I literally felt "exposed", like I was giving too much away. All my players except one have been playing under my direction for decades and handled the situation expertly. I soon relaxed and now feel pretty ambivilant about the whole thing. My players are aware of their opponents' AC but what does it really matter? They're too busy with their own statistics to invest too much thought in mine. A meta-gamer is going to meta-game no matter what you do. Don't let him wear you down with his interference. If you like the screen, use it. The player (or players) will just have to learn "that's how it's done".
I would probably drive my players crazy by occasionally just asking them to make a spot check just to make them nervous.
I do that. :D
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I roll all combat rolls in front of the players. Apart from anything else, the tension it causes when players are low on hit points is awesome. You can't be accused of being hard or lenient, only fair.
That is my view as well. I roll all dice in front of the table with the exception of those that are supposed to be hidden from players (e.g., forgery checks). It's a pet peeve of mine if a DM rolls behind the screen, particularly because the other DM in my group is a big fan of fudging for dramatic effect. Opinions clearly differ on this topic, so whatever works with you and your players is the way to go.
The game relies on the players trusting each other. In some groups the players will all trust. In others, the players only partially trust the DM, since a good DM will be able to lie outright to his players for the sake of the game, and as such the only thing they completely trust are the rulebooks and the dice.
Here's what I recommend you do.
1. Roll all dice in the open. This means you can't fudge it to save a PC's life, but this has the added benefit that the players don't get an immortality complex because they know you can fudge to keep them alive.
2. Note down the players' Spot and Listen scores so as to roll secret Spot and Listen checks when they ought not to notice something for a while yet. See if the players can trust you on this one.
Dice rolling behind the screen or infront of the screen is your choice, because you are the DM. For secret rolls it's obvious to roll them behind the screen. Combat can be a little different. If the battle is just a skirmish with some goblins then by all means it seems fair enough to roll behind the screen. I as a player don't like it when we get into a big important battle and the DM rolls behind a screen but that is also his choice. Rolling behind the screen is also great for fudging a roll and can be a DMs best friend. My normal DM rolls behind the screen in AoW during smaller battles but when the next roll could be the difference between life or death he will roll infront of everyone to show he is not fudging and also during really big battles (EX: the mirrors and doppleganger battle, although I forgot what it was called). Whenever it feels appropriate to roll infront of everyone or roll behind the screen is entirley up to you.
~Flabulater OUT!
I haven't read every response so I apologize if someone beat me to this already. Personally, I like rolling the dice in front of my players and like to be very obnoxious/dramatic about it at times (in a good way, I assure you). I'll sometimes increase the tension by taunting them with "Oh, man, you're screwed now!" or "Dude, the only way this guy is going to miss is with a 4 or lower. You're so dead!" And then give the dice a nice tension building hand rattle or whisper encouragement to the dice before rolling.
On the flip side, I like to work up the confidence of the players as well with something like "Man, this fighter is nevery going to hit your AC. He' got to get like a 19 or 20 on the roll."
With the dice rolls in front of the players, it helps keep me honest. Believe me, there are times I'm really tempted to fudge 'em.
As far as making rolls for the players, I came up with a system that's been fool proof for quite a while now. I use the RPGA initiative cards you can download from the WotC site (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=rpga/downloads). Mine are laminated so I can use dry erase pens on them. Each player has his/her own card. On the back of them I have the players write down a series of about 10 d20 rolls. Oh, and the players do the rolls for each other. Never their for their own character. I keep the cards face down and hand them to random players when having them do this, so they never know whose card they rolled for.
When it comes to Spot, Disable Device, and other rolls I don't want the players to be aware of, I use the rolls on the back of their cards, top to bottom, and cross each one off as its used. It's been a great system so far that I recommend to others.
All of that said, you can do rolls in front of your players, behind a screen, behind your hand, whatever. It's your game.
I kinda use the pre-rolling
What I do is make all the secret rolls when I am setting up the adventure and just make note as to what the results were apply any team bonuses.
My group moves fast... and depending on the complexity of the encounter...sometimes I forget there is a trap here. Plus we only play 4 hrs at a time so I like to keep things moving.
I have met some DMs that dont hide any roll they make and ask the player to make a spot check and if they make the DC then they have a chance to disable it.
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I am of the view that there are times when a DM needs to roll behind a DM Screen (that's sort of why DM Screens were invented).
It also hides your maps, notes (or lack of..) and the figures for those critters you want to surprise the party with. Seeing these can really spoil the tension...
"Oooh, look, everyone. He's got the rust monsters out".
"Druid takes point".
If I ask the PC to make a spot check and they roll a 1, they know that:
A; There was something there to see and
B; They didn't see it.
Exactly.
And they will insist on trying again.And again.
And again.
And again.
And again.
And again.
And again.
And again.
And again.
And again.
And again.
And again.
And again.
And again.
And again.
And again.
And even if that player is mature enough to let the matter drop, the others will try to get in on the act, 'just happening' to wander over to that corner, 'you know, just to have a word with Dave. Do I notice anything,....hmmmm?'.
In their defence, a lot of players are used to DMs who would only allow a spot roll if you were in the right square, facing the right way, specifically stating what you're looking for, what size, what colour, what time of day, inside leg, mother's maiden name, etc., so they're used to HAVING to jump through hoops to find anything. These are the players who get nervous and anxious if they feel that their control is being taken away, especially if they hear they're only getting the one roll...What's going on?...Oh, we're so dead, I tell you!...Check it again! And again! And again!....(groan...)
"Hey, man, I'm checking over there! I totally would check that first, you know!"
"Yeah, yeah, I told you, you didn't find anything in the room..."
"What about that corner there, I totally would have expected a trap there. That's the place I would have checked first, you know!"
"Let me try!"
"You've looked!"
"No, I was looking over there when I rolled that 1; now Jeff's rolled a nat 20, I thought I'd come over here for a breather. Do I see anything?"
I consider skills like Spot and Listen to be always 'on', especially if the character is exploring a strange place, so I roll whenever there is something to notice (along with a few bluff rolls if the players are getting cocky or dragging their feet...).
This represents a casual glance around, and it's free; it takes place at the same time as other movement or actions, the player doesn't have to ask for it BUT they only get the one, and I reserve the right to increase the DC, or disallow the chance altogether as appropriate, eg if the PC sprints through, is engaged in melee, or steers clear of the feature concerned.
If the player goes back later, or interacts with the scenery, or gives a good reason for thinking something must be there, I allow a re-roll and/or a bonus (eg "I've chased a goblin in here; he must be hiding somewhere. I'll kick the door against the wall then stab the curtains!").
But what about combat - should you make rolls for NPCs behind the screen or not?
This depends on whether the DM has a dull 'hit, miss, miss, hit' delivery or not. Players who hear that sort of bland description have nothing to go on, no way to know whether the enemy's hits are due to strength, skill or just blind luck.
I like to keep the rolls secret to prevent players metagaming ("Ooh, he's got +6 to hit, so if I use 2 points of Expertise, he'll only hit me on a 20..."), BUT I make up for this by describing the action.He takes a huge backswing; you think you'll be able to dodge it easier, but if it does hit you, it's gonna hurt...(Power Attack).
He attacks you frenziedly, leaving himself wide open (Rage).
He seems to be retreating from your blows, his return strikes are few and far between and seem very cautious (Defensive Fighting).
The guy with the spear is trying to stick it between your legs. It's easy enough to avoid being tripped, but you keep having to look away from his friend (Aid Another).
And so on.
As for their own rolls, I figure the PCs should be aware of how much trouble they're having hitting their foes, and why.
And again, a dry 'hit, miss, miss, hit' is insufficient. Don't forget the PCs are there, even if the players aren't. If the creature has high Dex/small size, tell them it dodged; if it fights defensively, tell them it parried; if it's wearing heavy armour, tell them.
For DR, this is optional, but I personally like to give a clue that something's amiss, otherwise the players just keep banging their heads against a brick wall that the PCs (who are there in person) would not.
DR/adamantine: You hit the beast, and your weapon shudders in your hand, numbing your fingers...
DR/silver: Black ichor flows from the wolfman's wounds, scabbing over, shifting and growing new hair. But where Fred's silver dagger hits, smoke issues from the wound as the flesh bubbles away from the blade...
One member of our group has a bit of a problem. If I roll a critical against him behind the screen he demands I roll again, but if I miss there are no complaints.
All dice-rolling table rules should be applied across the board, whether the result is high or low, PC or NPC.
Rolled off the table; reroll.Fell in Bob's drink; reroll.
Cat ate the dice; reroll.
Dice on the slant (aka cocked dice); reroll.
There are though, those players who will attempt to abuse these conventions, declaring a die 'cocked' when it's 1 degree off the horizontal. Forgetting which die is the 'tens' and which is the 'ones'. Retroactively demanding a reroll for something not covered, because 'we've always done it that way in myother group'.
There's a term for that; it's called being a cheating little thumbsucking crybaby....;)
what you CAN do is get each player to roll d20 thirty times, write all numbers down on a piece of paper in order, and cross each one off as they are used up...
Hmmm,
And when they KNOW that they rolled a whole heap of crap early in the list, they 'use up' their bad luck making totally pointless skill attempts ("OOH, I'll have another listen at the barmaid's bedroom! Oh dear, {chuckle}, do I not hear anything for the tenth time? Oh, well, off to the dungeon...{with my spiffing high skill rolls already guaranteed....}).That way lies madness and metagaming abuse.
Don't let the players dictate how you run a game. They don't know what they want, they just think they do...
Snorter
LOL. Snorter, you've nailed it. Good stuff. And frighteningly accurate. Exactly why I have players do pregen. rolls for anonymous other players. Where do you live, man? I need to come play in one of your games ;)
I personally roll everthing behind the screen.I don't fudge rolls generally so the players never question it.I also have the players roll all their own rolls(and out in the open), with one exception: an elf or similiar character who walks by a secret door has a chance to spot it,it gives it away to ask them to make that roll.Overall I feel a DM has too much to keep track of to make any of the players rolls for them.Now, to throw them off, I will sometimes make anonymous rolls which mean nothing or random spot checks which basically mean nothing but wont seem made up because I'll add a piece of dungeon dressing.I will sometimes use the prerolling method for combat.I will let a player know one or two places in advance of when they are up and they can preroll their turn and give me the results.As for your problem with the heated debate over the "1" spot check, if the players wont let it go have them roll for initiative and throw a wandering monster at them- that always gets their attention!
One simple solution: Make sure you have all the important modifiers for every PC (the ones you want to keep secret). When you need them to make one of those checks, ask them to roll a d20 and add in the modifier yourself. They'll still know they rolled crappy - but they won't know what's it for.
That is an excellent idea that I hadn't even considered. I think I'll have the players make index cards of their Spot, Listen, and Sense Motive mods (and any others I think may come in handy), and do what you suggested. Also, having a handy list of a character's gear is a good idea too, so if they fail that spot check for sleight of hand, you have your pick of what to filch.
My players are aware of their opponents' AC but what does it really matter? They're too busy with their own statistics to invest too much thought in mine.
Agreed. I don't use a screen because of space constraints. I also don't make any rolls for the players. If they blow a roll checking for traps, do they know it? Yes. Which adds to the suspense as they open the door or whatever and don't know if they're going to get their hand blown off. If I tell them to make a roll to see if they notice something and they blow it, yeah, they then know they've missed something. But it's also great in adding to the suspense as the PLAYER is suddenly very nervous (and I don't let them try other things to figure out what they missed unless it's vital to the plot).
In complicated combat, I usually tell them all at the beginning what they need to roll to hit anyway because it makes my life easier. Let them track it based on whatever weapon they're using. It doesn't take anything away from the excitement of the fight.
Do they sometimes get a glimpse of "the big room" on my map? Sure. But we don't use a mapper so they have no idea where they are in RELATION to the big room, and they know a big room is coming sooner or later because that's how the game tends to work.
I haven't read every response so I apologize if someone beat me to this already. Personally, I like rolling the dice in front of my players and like to be very obnoxious/dramatic about it at times (in a good way, I assure you). I'll sometimes increase the tension by taunting them with "Oh, man, you're screwed now!" or "Dude, the only way this guy is going to miss is with a 4 or lower. You're so dead!" And then give the dice a nice tension building hand rattle or whisper encouragement to the dice before rolling.
On the flip side, I like to work up the confidence of the players as well with something like "Man, this fighter is nevery going to hit your AC. He' got to get like a 19 or 20 on the roll."
With the dice rolls in front of the players, it helps keep me honest. Believe me, there are times I'm really tempted to fudge 'em.
As far as making rolls for the players, I came up with a system that's been fool proof for quite a while now. I use the RPGA initiative cards you can download from the WotC site (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=rpga/downloads). Mine are laminated so I can use dry erase pens on them. Each player has his/her own card. On the back of them I have the players write down a series of about 10 d20 rolls. Oh, and the players do the rolls for each other. Never their for their own character. I keep the cards face down and hand them to random players when having them do this, so they never know whose card they rolled for.
When it comes to Spot, Disable Device, and other rolls I don't want the players to be aware of, I use the rolls on the back of their cards, top to bottom, and cross each one off as its used. It's been a great system so far that I recommend to others.
All of that said, you can do rolls in front of your players, behind a screen, behind your hand, whatever. It's your game.
I saw Steve operate first hand a couple of weeks ago and I was taken aback by his dramatic die roll sequences (especially the narrative, LOL), but I realized how much fun that was. I'm not quite ready to do that yet myself, because my players would think I was on crack, but Steve's style was unique and memorable.
"Do they sometimes get a glimpse of "the big room" on my map? Sure. But we don't use a mapper so they have no idea where they are in RELATION to the big room, and they know a big room is coming sooner or later because that's how the game tends to work."
One time, a player sneaked a look at the map of a cave system. He was the leader, and was about to make some statements about the path they were about to take. I said "Someone else takes the lead, or you downlevel."
So, they gave the lead to the Ogre. He didn't role-play, he played to win. He had a plan; keep your left hand on the wall (like normal people do). So I'd describe the corridor options, and He'd say "Left." They'd move on, I'd describe the next junction. He'd say "Left."
They went in a circle about three or four times before I gave up and told the ranger he spotted their own footsteps and let the original leader take back over. Some labyrinths don't actually allow eventual access to the big room.
But yeah, now that you mention it, that is the point of playing, and I probably should have just let the leader take the direct route. If they weren't going to kill the Lich then I wasn't going to be able to east Victory Pizza with them. Every good DM knows the value of Victory Pizza.
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If they blow a roll checking for traps, do they know it? Yes. Which adds to the suspense as they open the door or whatever and don't know if they're going to get their hand blown off.
But that's my point...do they open the door/chest etc?
Or do they invent an excuse not to do so?Do they check it again 'just in case'?
And again.
And again.
And again.
And again.
And again.
And again.
And again.
And again.
Do they check every exit in turn, and then 'just happen' to ignore the door where they rolled a 1, and go through the one they 'just happened' to roll the 20 for?
How would they know the difference?
If I tell them to make a roll to see if they notice something and they blow it, yeah, they then know they've missed something. But it's also great in adding to the suspense as the PLAYER is suddenly very nervous (and I don't let them try other things to figure out what they missed unless it's vital to the plot).
They don't necessarily need to try again, if another player 'just happens' to think that he'd like a second opinion.
Or the wizard decides he'll cast Detect Magic 'just in case'.Or the searcher demands a Resist Fire 'just in case'.
Or the party expend a charge from the wand of Detect Traps 'just in case'.....Etc.
Now, there's nothing wrong with any of the above practices, in theory. They are often a good idea.
What I have a problem with, is these methods being used retrospectively, and with the benefit of hindsight.
If you want to double-team on every search attempt, fine.
But it means you're both in the blast area if the trap goes off.
If your caster wants to concentrate on a detection spell for as long as possible, fine.
But he then can't keep up another concentration spell (like a Silent Image).
If you want to use a charge from an item every time you search, fine.
But you'll exhaust the item within the week.
If you want to do any of the above (or similar), fine.
But say so before the dice are rolled; don't wait to see the results, and then declare you "would have been" aiding someone.
If I play a rogue, I say how many attempts I'm going to make at a skill. (Eg. "Listen for a round, search for 2 rounds, if no traps, listen once more, then go in"). I might modify this in areas where traps or guards are more or less likely. If I get a trap in the face, then I have to deal with it. That's what high Dex, good Ref saves, evasion, trapsense, and uncanny dodge are for. If you keep getting injured, then you need more skill ranks, better tools, buff spells or Skill Focus.
This does mean that my characters get injured, sometimes killed. But on the other hand, we get to explore more than one room or corridor per session.
Myself I'd love to stop rolling dice altogether. I've tried to switch over the the "Players roll all the dice" optional rules in Unearthed Arcana but my group refuses to go along with it. If they did all the dice rolling I could focus on describing the effect of the roll itself.
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What I've done in my game for those rolls that might alert a player to something that should only be obvious if they succeed in a skill check (or miss a saving throw)is to have them roll in advance.
I use an Excel grid and have the players each roll a d20 twenty times and record the results. Then I roll a d20 to determine which of these pre-rolls is the starting spot. Whenever I need a player roll where it isn't appropriate to let them know something's up, I just use the next roll on their list.
The players get to make their own rolls, I get keep from tipping them off about special circumstances, everyone's happy.
As a sidenote, my current game has been running for over 18 months and I still haven't run out of pre-rolls for any of the players. The need for these rolls is infrequent, but it's been great to have them available for those special occasions.
DMs can roll wherever they want. If the players don't trust the DM to be fair, it is probably best that those players go off anf find a different group.
The only time I fudge die rolls is when it will end in a TPK if I don't. I don't fudge die rolls in favor of the bad guys. If I am going to do that, there is no need to roll.
That said, there are some rolls for player skill checks that I roll in secret.
I roll both in the open and behind a screen. If there is a reason to keep the roll secret, such as my NPC's Hide check, I roll behind a screen. Combat and saving throws I roll all over the place, just because a) I'm disorganzied that way, and b) I like occasionally to make the point that I'm not afraid to show the Players that I am going to let the dice fall where they fall. In the Shackled City game I just started, Kazmojen failed two saving throws against a 2nd-level illusion spell (don't remember the name) and went to 0 Dex, and there was no doubt in my Players' minds that I didn't fudge those rolls, even though they were about to get their tails handed to them, and even though I rolled them behind the screen.
In another game I run, a barbarian frost giant killed the party's 13th level monk in a single round of combat using the full attack action. I made this giant's rolls all in the open. Although I felt badly for the Player, neither had she any cause to doubt me nor to complain.
Long ago, I found out D&D just isn't as much fun when cheating or fudging goes on. I both DM and play an honest game. So, I can tell you this, the first Player who "demanded" that I re-roll a roll he didn't see would be out of my game faster than a purple worm can swallow a halfling commoner.
Cheating -- I hate it. I have come to firmly believe that rolling up characters is where it all starts. Players who come in with multiple 18s cheated. They cheated by rolling and rolling and rolling, maybe, so, yes, they honestly did "roll up" those scores. But, cheat they did. It's why I now use a point buy. I am all about the even playing field.
Here's another way my Players know that *I* am honest. When I make a roll behind the screen, and I say, "Oh, crap!" with a genuinely stricken expression on my face, they know something bad is about to happen to one of *them*. How? Because, over and over again, I demonstrate to them that I want them to succeed. I want them to find the trap, and to defeat the bad guy, and to get the treasure, and to rescue the helpless. Time and again, they see that I feel no glee when the bad guys win. They learn, over time, that my theory is that winning without real risk is hollow, however.
The moral of this story: be honest and expect your Players to be honest.
I roll all dice in front of the table with the exception of those that are supposed to be hidden from players (e.g., forgery checks). [...] Opinions clearly differ on this topic, so whatever works with you and your players is the way to go.
I have to agree with Sebastian here. Roll secret checks secretly, open checks openly. Thus:
When rolling for NPCs or monsters:
It's taken a while, but I've read the entire post. A lot of good points. Being an aspiring DM, here's what I've taken out of it: Roll all dice that could impact the PC behind the screen.
My table isn't condusive to rolling over the screen (it's bar stool height) so I plan to just roll behind the screen.
One point that hasn't been brought up yet, but kind of touched on, is the fear of players catching on to the attack bonus. Attack bonuses come in many forms, one of which is weapon bonuses. This is the main reason that I decided to roll behind the screen. Using metagaming, they can say that the BA is a little higher than their own, then can geuss on the STR bonus. Rolling the dice in front of them can reveal the bonus before a 100 gp pearl can.
I also like the idea of the d20 rolls pregened, but will use the idea of a d20 roll to find out where to start them.
I'm not sure about telling the PCs the AC of the opponent. If I were to force myself a decision, I'd probably give the PC the AC of the NPCs that don't have variable AC scores (Combat Expertise or the like) or magic items.
I'd probably run Wandering Encouters in front of the screen, as I've seen these are more ad-hoc basic creatures.
I've also come to the conclusion that if you set up a "social contract" (as one DM Seminar at Gencon put it) with the group that outlines what to do in what situation, all should be fine. What house rules? When to re-roll a cocked die? This way, there's less confusion. If need be, this can also be modified.
Thanks for the help!
Todd
Roll behind the screen. Just a few weeks ago I rolle din front of the screen, and the PCs wished I hadnt. Sometimes you need to pull punches for dramatic effect or do other things like that. Dont let them bully you into rolling in front of them.
Players have two basic rights: express their opinion about ruling in polite manner and stop playing. Otherwise DM has all the rights (though it is healthy to remember those two rights of players...).
Personally when I DM I make all my rolls behind a screen. I do fudge the rolls, though quite often in favor of players..."oh my, you took only two points of damage leaving you still conscious, what do you do next?" I make some of the skill rolls (those with uncertain outcome) for the players too.
I have also played in a campaign where DM makes _all_ the rolls in the game and where players didn't even have character sheets (or they had made sheets in beginning of campaign but with DM reserving a right to make changes to them..."oops, I guess you never were quite as good rider as you thought you were..."). And it was fun, though requires a simple system and a campaign with little combat so that players don't get bored while DM rolls for half an hour...
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The problem with rolling secretly is that its hard to roll secretly and keep the ACT of rolling SECRET. The players might not know what the result was, but they instantly start thinking that something is up. I had to deal with this issue several times in the past. Finally, I decided that I needed to change something for a Ravenloft campaign I was going to start.
As we all know, suspense and horror are the cornerstones of a good Ravenloft campaign, so I decided that I would put an end to meta-thinking with regards to players seeing or hearing me make 'secret' rolls. I inserted random rolls for irrelevant things. A Spot check to notice a cockroach on the wall. A Listen check to hear an owl hooting in the distance. I wouldn't bog the games down with these, but in times of suspense of caution I would start making them. Naturally, some of these rolls WERE for things like traps or ambushes, but I kept them off guard enough that they never knew when something important was going on and when it was just a random environmental thing.
This carried over to my campaigns from then on. If your players insist on re-checking and re-checking and re-checking to find a 'trap' under the door, reward their efforts by revealing that they notice a cricket or a tiny mouse hole in the wall instead of a trap. Eventually, they will stop wasting their time and yours. It works WONDERFULLY.
I always roll attacks in the open, but roll any damage behind the screen. I'm not a big one for fudging rolls but this gives me some slack if I need it. I too use the random totally insignificant rolls tactic and just playing wiht the dice also helps.
I inserted random rolls for irrelevant things. A Spot check to notice a cockroach on the wall. A Listen check to hear an owl hooting in the distance. I wouldn't bog the games down with these, but in times of suspense of caution I would start making them. Naturally, some of these rolls WERE for things like traps or ambushes, but I kept them off guard enough that they never knew when something important was going on and when it was just a random environmental thing.
I've taken a sort of tangentially related approach to spot and listen checks. I still let the players roll them -- we've had enough issues with PC 1 rolling PC 2's checks that I won't do it myself and am about half a step from banning it altogether in my games -- but try to have two or three "backup" results: If they meet the DC, obviously, they notice the important thing, but if they barely fail their spot check they might notice that one of the women in the crowd has a stain on her blouse, or if they fail by more they might be convinced that the priest is inebriated because he's swaying in the middle of his speech. On exceptionally low rolls, they might even "spot" something that isn't actually there.
It's so much more fun than "you don't see anything out of the ordinary."
If it hasn't already been mentioned, the PHB and DMG gives you a few pointers on which rolls you should make secretly. Personally, I find that the situation often dictates whether a roll should be made secretly or not.
For example, I follow the PHB idea when it comes to Listen and Spot checks. Reactive Listen and Spot checks should be made secretly by the DM (of course you could also list down the PCs numbers and just get them to roll the dice without telling them what for) while active Listen and Spot checks should be made out in the open by the players themselves since the PCs are trying to Listen or Spot something.
I do have a question for those people like Zherog who always roll out in the open in front of their players. Do you tell the PCs what your rolling for? If you don't then that's fine, but your method requires very mature players who don't metagame or powergame in the slightest. Its just that I've seen lesser players abuse the DM's honesty in such games.
Personally I like to make combat rolls behind the screen because it heightens the tension. I also like to fudge when trying to avoid a TPK or something equally nasty. Rolling in front of the players means that you are stuck by the same limitations they are. Not something I'm prepared to do as a DM.
The problem with rolling secretly is that its hard to roll secretly and keep the ACT of rolling SECRET. The players might not know what the result was, but they instantly start thinking that something is up. I had to deal with this issue several times in the past. Finally, I decided that I needed to change something for a Ravenloft campaign I was going to start.
As we all know, suspense and horror are the cornerstones of a good Ravenloft campaign, so I decided that I would put an end to meta-thinking with regards to players seeing or hearing me make 'secret' rolls. I inserted random rolls for irrelevant things. A Spot check to notice a cockroach on the wall. A Listen check to hear an owl hooting in the distance. I wouldn't bog the games down with these, but in times of suspense of caution I would start making them. Naturally, some of these rolls WERE for things like traps or ambushes, but I kept them off guard enough that they never knew when something important was going on and when it was just a random environmental thing.
This carried over to my campaigns from then on. If your players insist on re-checking and re-checking and re-checking to find a 'trap' under the door, reward their efforts by revealing that they notice a cricket or a tiny mouse hole in the wall instead of a trap. Eventually, they will stop wasting their time and yours. It works WONDERFULLY.
I do often times roll without any reason to, just so they can hear the roll. I also pass notes that have no relavant information on them, and tell the PCs not to let anyone know that the note is not "noteworthy." That way, later on, when you send a note to a PC telling them that they are charmed or dominated, everyone in the party has already seen the "false alarm" notes, and doesn't know what to think.
I've been in games using both methods. I personally prefer rolling in the open, but both methods work. I think rolling in the open adds a depth of reality to the game.
To illustrate: in a game I once played, the DM never fudged rolls. At one point he tried to replace my character's lover with a doppelganger, but a series of great die rolls on my part foiled the plot. I could tell he was disappointed, but he let it pass, because that's the way the dice worked.
Later in the same campaign, my character (feeling the first stirrings of maternal instinct) had a chance to save a human baby from becoming a vampire's midnight snack. Well, I bungled my rolls and the baby died.
The second scene was SO much more powerful, because of the way he'd handled the first scene. I knew that my DM wouldn't "fudge" important scenes for drama; I'd seen him in action. So I definitely had a chance to save that baby, and I failed. It was very traumatic.
Rolling behind the screen does not equal fudging, of course. But it makes it easier, and you can never "prove" to the PCs that you're not fudging. So I prefer rolling in the open.
-Amber S.
I do often times roll without any reason to, just so they can hear the roll. I also pass notes that have no relavant information on them, and tell the PCs not to let anyone know that the note is not "noteworthy." That way, later on, when you send a note to a PC telling them that they are charmed or dominated, everyone in the party has already seen the "false alarm" notes, and doesn't know what to think.
Oh, yes, misleading is fun. When I DM I can just randomly ask to quickly check the player's character sheet, which might or might not be followed by a roll. No explanation, naturally.
I don't do that much those "this note is intentionally blank" notes, as they reveal too easily that I'm just messing up with their minds, but I can ask of some little detail from character background or let that character "notice" those mouseholes or stains in blouses mentioned by others...and in some campaigns characters are also so secretive that they are happy to play through notes too, or have a quick private session in the kitchen.
I do remember one one-shot game where I and one other player were the only ones who weren't busily writing notes to the DM, we just looked at each other and commented that we are f***ed...
I saw Steve operate first hand a couple of weeks ago and I was taken aback by his dramatic die roll sequences (especially the narrative, LOL), but I realized how much fun that was. I'm not quite ready to do that yet myself, because my players would think I was on crack, but Steve's style was unique and memorable.
Note to self. Get crack for next session...do they sell this at my FLGS? Or do I have to order online?