I'm pretty easy-going, especially on criticism of Paizo, but really:
"Bow down before Baphomet, Demon Prince of Beasts"
Hmmmm.....I'm a parent taking my teenager to the FLGS because they've been bugging me to buy them some D&D stuff. I'm a little nervous because I'm not in a traditional store, there's some weird stuff floating around....but it seems okay until......I read the cover of Dragon 341.
Hmmmmm....I'm a parent going through my teenager's room looking for condoms or pot, stumble across his or her D&D collection and then......I read the cover of Dragon 341.
Do we really have to make it that easy to make the ignorant attack our hobby? If you think I'm off base here, I welcome and want to hear your counteropinion.
I know that someone might buy the magazine just because of the "in your face" article title, but are the additional sales that might generate worth the unwarranted and "off-the cuff" dismissive criticism? Maybe it is, please tell me if you know.
I recently brought two high school kids into the hobby. The only reason they were allowed to play is because the parents know me and trust me and I gave them the whole "it's just a game sales pitch." This magazine, had they seen it at that time, would have probably ruined that.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I'm not sure I see the problem. Is it the use of the term "demon?" IMO, the whole D&D = satan controversy is really an artifact of the early 80's D&D boom and not a relevant problem for the game today. Anything that is popular with a younger generation gets attacked on some ground, D&D just happened to get hit with all that satanism garbage.
As a parent, I can't say that cover would give me pause. Maybe if it was Demon Lord of Breasts I might be concerned...
I'm not sure I see the problem. Is it the use of the term "demon?" IMO, the whole D&D = satan controversy is really an artifact of the early 80's D&D boom and not a relevant problem for the game today. Anything that is popular with a younger generation gets attacked on some ground, D&D just happened to get hit with all that satanism garbage.As a parent, I can't say that cover would give me pause. Maybe if it was Demon Lord of Breasts I might be concerned...
It's the "Bow down before" part that might give many people some pause....and while the 1980's rage is over with, the country is still run by conservatives and virtually every single person that I talk to about the hobby that doesn't know the hobby asks questions about the "devil" worshipping rumors.
We don't need to give ammo to someone trying to resurrect the controversy.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I hear the satanism mantra a lot from gamers, but I really think it is dated and not an issue anymore. The reason people still associate the game with satanism is because so much of the press that got out at the peak of popularity was about Satanism. Those who would censor their children's information intake these days have a lot bigger fish to fry than D&D's marginal link to satanism. Video games, the internet, Myspace are all much bigger targets.
If there was going to be another uproar about D&D, it would have happened when the book of vile darkness came out. Or the book of exhalted deeds. Or the gory Hackmaster covers. No one cares enough about D&D to get upset about satanic references except for the gamers scared by living through those times.
It's kinda like how some people who lived through the Great Depression hoarde food or don't trust banks.
Besides, the Christian groups that were very anti-D&D are more the marginal Jack Chick types that people don't take seriously. I don't think most mainstream churches (even conservative mainstream churches) have an anti-D&D attitude.
Heck, Yu-gi-oh and Magic are more likely to draw ire for their use of demons. They're more widely played and viewed as more of a nuisance (in terms of child hours and cash wasted).
Basically, D&D's extremely tenuous connection to satanism/the occult is just about at the very bottom of any rationale parent's to-fear list.
Okay, that comparison to the Great Depression made me laugh, Sebastian. Good points you made. I hope you're right--but first impressions and a single stand-out headline or cover phrase can sure make a negative first impression.
Living through the 80's made me paranoid? I can accept that explanation...lots of things in the 80's made me paranoid.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Hmmmmm....I'm a parent going through my teenager's room looking for condoms or pot, stumble across his or her D&D collection and then......I read the cover of Dragon 341.
I imagine the parent's anger would depend on if he found condoms or pot...
--Erik
Actually, I am glad someone else thought that too. I don't think its just the old 80s Satanism gig either. I think that there may be just a weee bit of concern on my part that Baphomet is a name that was actually circulated as a demon in history, so while "Bow down before Juiblex, Slimey Lord of all that is Slimy" might not catch someone's attention that is not a gamer, Baphomet and Demon Prince of Beasts is likely to catch someone's eye that knows a thing or two about history.
I'm just saying . . . BTW, it was a very good article.
I'm gonna have to agree with F2k on this one... The cover art (an excellent piece on golem construction) fortunately didn't reinforce the demon bit, but there was just something about the tag-line that nags at my mind as inappropriate. No, D&D probably doesn't generate the rucus that Magic, Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh, manga, etc. do nowadays, but there's no need to give the opposition free ammunition. Just my $0.02.
Farewell2Kings, you are not paranoid ... and your words are worth considering.
The (black magic/demon-worshipping/D&D will steal your soul) backlash against gamers is very, very real in north and central Illinois. Anytime I mention that I play (or write for) D&D and rpgs, the whole witchcraft thing comes up.
(Which always has struck as somewhat ironic, given the region's early role in growing the rpg hobby).
Fantasy, as a whole, still is largely misunderstood as a genre around here. And no, this is not what you'd call fundamentalist-Bible thumping territory.
I will say, that as I attend a Congregationalist church whose founding families were all Mayflower descendents, sensitivity to anything that smacks of witchcraft remains a sore point. Congregationalist values have deep roots in the culture of the region. The baby boomer generation, including my parents, here takes a dim view of rpg hobby.
It's not that such copy causes more people to be distrustful of gaming ... it just validates their previously held stereotypes.
Does the cover copy offend me, a church-going, Sunday School teaching DM? No. But I also work in publishing, and so I appreciate provacative cover copy and artwork, marketplace considerations aside.
No question such copy can inflame the game's critics. Just as illustrations of buxom warrior elfen babes apparently outrages another aspect of the roleplaying audience. But that's a whole other debate.
It's just that demons/devils have never been a selling point for me. I know they're popular with the hobby at large. But I don't "get it," and my gaming tastes don't run in that direction. Never owned a Fiend Folio, and unlikely that I ever will.
Still the point is well taken. The game store example is exactly what came to my mind, as well.
sure, some concerned parents will think that title is BADD and get upset. ;)
but i think most who are already familiar with their child's hobby will just groan and roll their eyes instead. ;)
But I do bow down before Baphomet.
No seriously, I think people who criticize our hobby can long walk off a short pier...and get eaten by one Rich's kraken thralls. Live and let live says I! They should be much more concerned by what "wholesome" people are doing to the international economy and other countries' sovreignty than what demon prince a bunch of nerds are pretending to worship in their spare time.
I say we show no fear in the face of censorship! Then again...I am a young gamer who did not have to live through the debacle of the 1980s Christian Right's attack on a harmless hobby whose only "evil threat" to children lies in improving their math, english, theatrical and problem solving skills.
Me two coppers!
Nick...I very much agree with you with what the rest of the world can do with themselves regarding D&D. However, we DO want to attract new gamers to keep the hobby alive for future generations. I'm sure the incidents of potential new gamers exploring the shelves of the FLGS and being turned away by such a title on the cover of Dragon are few to non-existent, but why even chance it?
If we're not good ambassadors to the non-gaming world and become arrogant or flippant about the false accusations made towards our hobby, we're not doing ourselves a favor....and we may certainly turn away potential gamers who are turned off by our attitude as well as the controversial material that this particular issue of Dragon boldly advertises.
BTW, I just added another year to my subscription to Dragon, the content has been very enjoyable and useful. My wife would want me to subscribe just for Order of the Stick, but I find myself culling more and more material from Dragon to use in my campaign.
Then again...I am a young gamer who did not have to live through the debacle of the 1980s Christian Right's attack on a harmless hobby whose only "evil threat" to children lies in improving their math, english, theatrical and problem solving skills.
Here, this should bring you up to speed:
http://www.darkholmekeep.net/crusade/dd1.cfm
I got one of these back in the day. Found it sitting on the top of a urinal where I was draining the dragon which is where I look for all my anti-Satanism propaganda.
25 years ago, F2K, the world was a different place. The cornfed masses were less informed, having little to no access to the amazing amount of information that we do now. I find it hard to believe that you actually fear the media "lynchings" the 80's brought us.
After reading your initial post all I can think of is that classic anti-drug commercial where the dad confronts the son with his box of dope. "Where did you learn to do this?!", he screams. "You, alright!", the boy screams back in defense, "I learned it from watching you!" only with your scenario the dad's dangling a dice bag in front of the kid demanding to know where he learned to fight demons. I hope one day my daughter and/or son learns to play (much like a buddy of mine is experiencing with his son) so we can go demon hunting (or bowing down to) together.
If one's worried about kids getting goofed up by gaming material I'd suggest getting the kids professionally examined. Then buy them a new d20 and tell them you're sorry for being such a twit.
- Chris Shadowens
I think everyone thus far has made some valid points to support both sides of this issue. Given that, I agree with F2K that we do not need to add fuel to the fire. Stepping back and viewing the cover as a parent of a child wanting to start a new hobby might give some of you a different perspective.
Having been a kid of the eighties, I can relate first hand times when we would get a new player at school only to have him quit playing due to pressure from parents etc..
Chris,
I went to that "Dark Dungeons" website you mentioned.....and laughed my ass off. Thanks!
Good points on both sides. I must admit, the "bow down to" part as headline made me a bit uncomfortable for all the reasons F2K brought up. I'm not sure we're quite as far away from the 1980s as we think we are, even if the hard-core conservative Christians are temporarily focused on other crusades.
Of course many of us spend our free time creating evil and nefarious cults full of demon worshippers for our PCs to slay. We all recognize that D&D polytheism is pure fantasy and reconcile our participation in the fantasy to our own real-world personal beliefs somehow, or avoid it if that's an aspect of the game we're uncomfortable with. But it's one of those things that you get used to over time, and it can be a bit off-putting for someone from outside the hobby seeing it for the first time if it's too in-your-face.
The other thing that made me slightly uncomfortable, and you can all accuse me of being too PC, has to do with the particular origins of the name Baphomet. It doesn't take too much imagination/research to recognize that this name was a medieval European corruption of "Mohammed"--medieval Christians in their ignorance of Islam believed that the "Saracens" worshipped the Prophet as an idol, and thus placed him in their demonomicons alongside such names as Baalzebul, Lucifer, Satan, Mephistopheles, etc. Hopefully our Muslim friends are unaware of this connection--I suppose there aren't too many Muslims who play D&D or even know what it is, but . . . there is the little matter of many people taking umbrage at certain political cartoons lately.
Obviously we can't be too worried about offending every person or group out there, or we'd never get to play at all, I'm just saying we should be reasonably careful how we portray our hobby to outsiders, so that we attract more people than we drive away, and so that we don't attract the wrong kind of attention from the intolerant elements in our society.
My two coppers.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I think most of you are seriously overestimating a) the novelty of our hobby and b) the terms of pop culture. It's as if someone writing for the Simpson's today said "can we get away with showing Bart getting choked by Homer? That's really pushing the envelope." Yeah, back in 89, that was really pushing the envelope. Today, Stewie Griffin can attempt to kill his mother and no one bats an eye. Go turn on Nick at Night, go watch the groundbreaking television shows of the 80's and 90's. go compare Melrose Place with the OC, compare Cheers with Will & Grace, compare the Simpsons circa 1989 with the Simpsons circa 2006. Conservative groups used to shit bricks about the Simpsons back in the day, eat my shorts was some terrible phrase of rebellion. I guarantee if the Simpsons makes an entire episode where all that happens is Bart yelling eat my shorts at authority figures, no one would report it.
The only people who seriously consider the possibility of a crackdown by the religous right against gamers are a) the extreme religious right (and by the way, liberals, gays, and people who don't say Merry Christmas are a lot higher on their list) and b) paranoid gamers. Nobody else cares about D&D and to the extent they know about the scandle, they assicate it with a past event, not a current reality. Kinda like how when you mention communism everyone associates it with the McCarthy witchhunts - that doesn't mean a witchhunt is going to occur because someone is a communist today, it's just the thing people remember.
D&D and fantasy culture, including demons and devils, are integrated into pop culture. Video games, movies, cartoons, all sorts of entertainment products aimed at kids employ fantasy elements, including extraplanar evil beings, and NO ONE CARES.
We no longer live in the Soviet Union my friends. I know there were toilet paper shortages in our past, but we live in a country where toilet paper is cheap and plentiful. Use all you want, wipe yourself clean. The bad old days are gone and they are not coming back.
(Unless maybe Paizo has a cover that reads "Can you smite the evil forces of Jesus" or worse yet, a Downer strip with a special guest appearance by Mohammad.)
You're on the mark, Sebastian, but how come every single person I talk to about D&D that is not a gamer still asks about the demon worshipping stuff? I don't mind you labelling me paranoid, maybe I am...being a D&D playing teenager in the 80's and all....
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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You're on the mark, Sebastian, but how come every single person I talk to about D&D that is not a gamer still asks about the demon worshipping stuff? I don't mind you labelling me paranoid, maybe I am...being a D&D playing teenager in the 80's and all....
Even if you are paranoid, you're a very reasonable paranoid person, and I appreciate that. :-)
Everyone thinks about satanism because that's all they know. Ask anyone about Clarence Thomas and they will reply with something about Anita Hill/sexual harrasment. Clearly that's not all he is about/does, but it is all people know/remember.
Edit: Sorry, I was rushed on this post, let me elaborate a little more.
Basically, those who know nothing about politics and are non-partisan know one thing about Clarence Thomas - he sexually harassed Anita Hill. That's all they know, and it's not worth them knowing anything else. If asked, that's what they will say.
Another section of the populace knows that Clarence Thomas was alleged to have sexually harassed Anita Hill and that the process of confirmation was highly political.
Another section of the populace is familiar with Clarence Thomas as a judge, and knows him for his work on the bench. The sexual harrassment thing is just one event in the life of a person that they have familiarity with.
We are clearly in the third group. The people you run across are probably in the first or second. The confirmation hearings are analogous to the original media scam - a one time event that introduced the person (in this case, Clarence Thomas) to the wider world.
Now, I'm aware this analogy isn't perfect (I think the communist party analogy is probably better, but I'm halfway through this one, so work with me) because you only need to get confirmed by the Senate once and media circuses are of infinite supply, but it makes the point pretty well. Today, if CNN walked into Clarence Thomas's house and saw that he had a copy of maxim on his table, it wouldn't be news. It wouldn't be news if he had an issue of playboy. Now, if he actually sexually harassed someone, that would be news.
So, here we are. D&D has pictures of devils on it. That's the equivalent of playboy. Yeah, it might confirm what those in group one think/know about Clarence Thomas, but the fact that there is no playboy on his desk won't suddenly make them think the sexual harrassment thing was a big scam. Only by becomining educated about Clarence Thomas can you move beyond the idea that he just sexually harasses people for a living. The copy of playboy at his house doesn't really effect your perception, particularly because you just don't go to his house ever. During the confirmation hearings, news that clarence thomas had issues of playboy lying around might have been a big deal because it would be consistent with the idea that he demeans/objectifies women.
Same thing for D&D. Even if you did think it was all about satanism, it's not as if you go to a game store to obtain an informed opinion about the subject.
Very rambling I know, but that's my off the cuff analogy.
If we're not good ambassadors to the non-gaming world and become arrogant or flippant about the false accusations made towards our hobby, we're not doing ourselves a favor....and we may certainly turn away potential gamers who are turned off by our attitude as well as the controversial material that this particular issue of Dragon boldly advertises.
Your right F2K. It's good to be a good ambassador. I just had a misanthropic snarly moment earlier. I apologize. :-)
Also the points brought up about Baphomet's origins are interesting indeed, especially in regards to the Templars (many of which apparently worshipped Baphomet in some regard). Crazy stuff, but I would hope that any muslim reader would note a marked difference between Baphomet in D&D mythos and that of true mythology.
I think Sebastian is right that D&D is identified with satanism just because that's the strongest image or story that sticks with the general public's mind.
LAPD = Rodney King
Judas Priest = Suicides by teenagers
Ozzy Osbourne = Bat head swallower
Germany = Nazis
Middle East = Terrorists
We all know that those superficial categories are just that, superficial. However, I doubt the LAPD, for example, would put a headline on their newsletter "New Nightstick great for beating crap out of motorists" I just think a better cover title could have been chosen for the article. Yes, nothing will probably happen, but we just don't need the negative image, no matter how stupid we all know the satanist accusations are.
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First of all:"Does comix like no the DARKDUNGEON website really exist for Anti-D&Dists??? Gosh...
Being always connected to the Nazis, when I am visiting America starts getting on my nerves! No offense taken by your post, F2K, but I know that such prejudices still exist!
I can't tell you all, how F.*#äö$% this is, to be always remembered of this time in WW2.
It's over, I (and my whole generation) had nothing to do with it and I am raised in the spirit, that such things are never to be allowed again!
But, I am so nerved by always getting a strange feeling when I have to say:"Hey, I am german!" I still have this bad feeling about it and I would like to one day be able to say again "I am proud if being german" without getting called a Nazi right away! I am no Nazi, I am no racist I am a most tolerant person actually. I hate what happened in WW2 and I know it was wrong and against everthing I believe in, but there has to be a time, when my generation (and the following ones) are no longer made responsible for that!
What this has to do with the original post!?
As long as WE GAMERS start such discussions, we will always find an opposition. I trust every parent who plays D&D, that she/he knows how to raise and educate their children, and that it is up to us, to show them that there is no REAL worshipping demons or whatever in playing D&D.
We are well educated and we know what's right or wrong, so I think we shouldn't censore things like, well, D&D-game-terms on D&D material. Demons (as well as Angels) belong to D&D... My only answer when I come across one of those guys who view D&D as evil is:"Hey, it's only a game!"
Like visitors of a Marilyn Manson concert being asked if they are Satanist stated:"Gosh, no! It's just Music and a concert! We have fun, that's all!"
I'm gonna have to agree with F2k on this one... The cover art (an excellent piece on golem construction) fortunately didn't reinforce the demon bit, but there was just something about the tag-line that nags at my mind as inappropriate. No, D&D probably doesn't generate the rucus that Magic, Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh, manga, etc. do nowadays, but there's no need to give the opposition free ammunition. Just my $0.02.
I agree. Being a conservative Christian myself I tend to be sensitive to this type of stuff. Being an adult who has played D&D for 20+ years’ means I am mature enough not to worry about it personally. But it still niggles at me. It’s not something I would want my daughter, wife or pastor to see for instance.
I fully understand that the whole D&D cosmology when it comes to the lower planes is purely fiction and very “medieval” in its outlook. But I still find it irks me to see this kind of stuff when there is a real-life, albeit ignorant, reference. For instance I never use the term devil or demon in my game but stick to tanarri and baatuzi.
Don’t get me wrong. I don’t think D&D is going to turn people into Satanists or whatever. I think as a hobby it’s pretty positive. But why give people ammunition at all?
D&D had a big comback in the last years.
Thats why I bet these stupid "satanism" accusations will have a big comeback too... Just one terrible incident/accident could be enough to feed the discussion again. So called "conservative" TV, Press, Parent Organisations etc. love this kind of attention. In the USA and also down here in "Nazi-Germany".
On the other hand, moderating Your front cover won´t change that for a second.
I bow down before You GREAT LORDS OF PAIZO! :-)
Keep up with Your fantastic magazines and don´t start making compromises, please.
Loops!
Oh come now, for the last 130+ issues Dungeon has had the word "Dungeon" written on it in big bold letters, but we have yet to see a leathered up 400 lb. dominatrix roughing up some chained gimp with a zipper mask, right?
"It's a role-playing book, really."
So are we only now worried about what some people think of what we're reading, especially after all the "join this abomination's cult" covers of a few years ago? I say we go back to the peakaboo girl covers of last month that'll make everything better. Baywatch always got better ratings than Friday the 13th: the Series anyways.
Social mores being what they are, we should obviously respect a person's right to choose what's best for them* (even if we don't sometimes here in Imperial God Corp. America, LLC). We should also be sensitve to the reality of the world we exist in (at least to a point), but to misquote a famous ancient stand up act "Judge not lest you yourself be judged." (Matt 7:1). Ironic no doubt in toady's world, but good advice I think regardless of what church/temple/mosque you do or don't attend. It goes along with that whole casting-a-stone thing.
It's all fun and games until the deluge,
Triple G
*Yes, you're going to say something about pregnant, sociopathic, 12-year-olds, and should they get the same shake in society that the rest of us do or believe we do. To which I'm going to say it depends on the 12-year-old.... The argument above is made with the assumption of certain generaliztions.
Dryder,
When I first came to America, all the kids at school called me the "little Nazi." It bothered me a lot, but it's just ignorance fed by the fact that most of the time Germans are shown on American TV, they're neo-Nazis or Nazis in WWII. Sure, there's a few "good" Germans on TV, but mostly they're just the stereotypical jackbooted goosestepping thugs, as always.
Even at work, when I first started on the PD here--people would throw me Nazi salutes and laugh about it until I confronted them on it. Half of my family died in World War II, civilians included. I don't tolerate it any more. Anyone that makes a Nazi joke that even insinuates that I'm a Nazi gets called to the floor on it, right away. I usually shame them into an apology.
Unlike genius, stupidity has no limits.....(who said that? It's very true)
I don't want the ignorant a~*@*&#s of the world to get free press, which is why I questioned the cover title on 341.
I agree that Paizo should not compromise, but as I mentioned before, if we get arrogant or flippant about the whole demon-devil thing in D&D, we, as a hobby, will turn off more new gamers than we'll gain. How many Paizo readers lament the fact that they're stuck in a gaming backwater and can't find anyone to play D&D with? I fear such controversial magazine cover titles don't help them much with that problem.
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Dryder,
Unlike genius, stupidity has no limits.....(who said that? It's very true)
I don't want the ignorant a&**%#*s of the world to get free press, which is why I questioned the cover title on 341.
F2K,
The first of the above quoted sentence is so cool! I LOVE IT!!!The more I think about this whole issue, the more I fear I don't come up with a good way to handle it.
My first impression after reading your first post was - NO, don't duck and cover in front of possible D&D haters. Not again, we have to start to stand up against it. As well, I always found it hard not talking about demons when talk came up to D&D, but when I had some players talked into giving it a try, there had been a lot of, well, "demon-like" stuff in almost every adventure.
Than I thought, ok, keeping a low profile might be the correct way (as you said here). Don't give those over-religious guys a single reason to jump on us!
But now... Either way might be correct or wrong. I don't think there is a correct way. The only thing I can do personaly about this whole issue is being tolerant, and open to every one who starts talking against D&D. If we all show them, that we are conscientious people and have good jobs (being well into society if you like to view it this way), that our children are well mannered and that we don't raise our voice or become furious while talking and standing up questions and accusations, than we might be on the correct way...
I hope I found the correct words here. I am a bit afraid not getting my view correct to you guys out there because of the language barrier...
Dryder,
Your English is excellent! I'm not saying we should take demons or devils out of D&D like 2nd edition did when they renamed everything (which I thought was a total capitulation to the forces of ignorance). I just think "Bow down before Baphomet, Demon Lord of Beasts" prominently displayed on the cover of the flagship monthly publication of the hobby is not the greatest idea I've ever seen.
If I was a newbie thinking about trying out D&D for the first time, but I was a little nervous about those rumors I had heard over the years, that title would drive me away without ever giving the game a second chance. Not everyone is brought into the hobby by a group of friends who guide them through the initial angst (ain't it cool how some German & Yiddish words have made it into the English vernacular?).
There are some people who may pick up D&D just from buying the books at Barnes & Noble or from nervously wandering into the FLGS to seek advice from the counter help. I think we should keep that in mind when we put controversial titles on the cover of D&D products. I know not everyone agrees with me, but that's quite alright. I'm just a paranoid child of the 80's ;)
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Dryder,
Your English is excellent! I'm not saying we should take demons or devils out of D&D like 2nd edition did when they renamed everything (which I thought was a total capitulation to the forces of ignorance). I just think "Bow down before Baphomet, Demon Lord of Beasts" prominently displayed on the cover of the flagship monthly publication of the hobby is not the greatest idea I've ever seen.
Ok, you're right there! It's just sad that we have to get those feelings at all...
If I was a newbie thinking about trying out D&D for the first time, but I was a little nervous about those rumors I had heard over the years, that title would drive me away without ever giving the game a second chance.
But didn't all those "anti-D&Dists" just blame such sentences as "luring" younger players to the game? Don't get me wrong; both ways are bad, so I come more and more to the conclusion (even if it's sad to admitt) that you're statement is right!
Oh, well, you see - people's opinions can change - even in a very short amount of time.
I started playing D&D as well in the late 80's and it gave me so much! Made me tolerant, made me listen to other peoples opinions, made me WANT TO LEARN english and so on. I am just sad that some people spit on my/our beloved hobby and that we have to "care" what to write in public...
Maybe next time I don't just say:"Hey, it's just a game!" but show those guys these boards here - how we gamers are able to communicate on a very elaborate and social level!
We are the good people, and yes, we are geeks.
MAy D&D live on forever!!!
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I agree that Paizo should not compromise, but as I mentioned before, if we get arrogant or flippant about the whole demon-devil thing in D&D, we, as a hobby, will turn off more new gamers than we'll gain. How many Paizo readers lament the fact that they're stuck in a gaming backwater and can't find anyone to play D&D with? I fear such controversial magazine cover titles don't help them much with that problem.
Getting new gamers requires that you go out and recruit them and educate them. Potential new gamers aren't turned off by Demons- look at all the horror movies, metal bands, video games, etc.. that have demonic themes. People like to have the bejesus scared out of them, its fun. I thought the cover is funny. Its ludacris, because no one worships Baphomet. With me, it doesn't even register as controversial.
Lack of new gamers is more likely due to the lack of existing gamers not making an attempt to turn on new gamers to their favorite hobby. I've heard so many gamers complain that they don't like playing with new gamers because they don't know what they're doing, or they make stupid mistakes, or they don't roleplay well or whatever; calling them newbies and not bothering to make the game enjoyable for the new player. I'm guessing this has more to do with the painfully slow death of pen and paper RPGing, than fear of Baphomet. Blaming the devil for the fall of the industry is as silly as the religious right blaming our industry for the rise of satanism.
As Sebastian pointed out, Tim....I'm probably just being paranoid.
Although I do feel compelled to point out, many of the thought here are running along the US/THEM issue, as in, why should WE (gamers) worry about what THEY (Christians) think of us? The problem is that some of US are THEM, i.e. some of us that are Christians are also gamers. Although my sister is a wonderful person, she fell into the "Harry Potter is introducing kids to the occult" issue a few years back. I know she knows what the game is like, since she is the one I swiped my Basic Set from all those years ago . . . I would hate to tell her that the game is fine and safe for her boys now a days, then have her see, "Bow down before Baphomet" on a magazine cover and freak out.
If you aren't Christian and don't have any in your family, its easy to just say, "they are all narrow minded jerks," and have nothing to do with them, but if you are and you do, you realize that this isn't a matter of fanaticism for many of them, but a serious concern about their faith, their children, and a basic misunderstanding of the situation. I would rather work with them to help them understand than just write them off.
Keep in mind, I don't think anyone at Paizo is wrong or bad for having put out this cover, nor will this make me not buy the magazine, its just a valid concern that some of us have that we feel should be voiced. I don't think most of us are even crying for action here, just to note that this was perhaps close to a line and that some of us are sensitive to it.
Keep in mind, I don't think anyone at Paizo is wrong or bad for having put out this cover, nor will this make me not buy the magazine, its just a valid concern that some of us have that we feel should be voiced. I don't think most of us are even crying for action here, just to note that this was perhaps close to a line and that some of us are sensitive to it.
Yes, that's what I was trying to say, but couldn't find the right words for. You found the point that I was trying to make and summarized it much more succinctly than I did...thank you!
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Creative Director
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The cover lines for the magazine are intended to be eye-catching, and in some cases, I suppose even controversial. That said, the first Demonomicon issue had a cover line that said, "SERVE D&D'S ORIGINAL DEMON PRINCE." This cover line raised a few similar questions here on the messageboards, but it was nothing compared to the outflow of concern about Dragon showing too much skin on the same cover.
Personally, I feel that when TSR took drastic steps to sanitize D&D back in the 2nd edition days, they ended up doing a LOT more damage to the brand than outrage over demonic content ever did. In the end, those who hate or distrust the game are going to keep on doing so, despite what may or may not appear on the cover of magazines here and there. I know many Christian gamers (some of whom work here at Paizo), and they can certainly handle cover lines like this.
I'm not trying to sound callous or anything, but the simple fact is that in order for the magazine (and the hobby in general) to survive, we need to focus on pleasing our customers and target audience and worry less about pleasing those who have no interest or actively dislike the genre the game is rooted in.
My concern was primarily for those persons who are thinking about taking up D&D and stumble across this magazine cover and are turned off and scared away from the hobby because it seems to reinforce some of those concerns that have been voiced about D&D. Catchy title = yes, but for established gamers only......
When I introduced some new people (teenagers-students of my sister-in-law) to the game last year, their parents leafed through my D&D books. They weren't too concerned, but I'd hate to have to explain away stuff that, in my opinion, is just a little too controversial....but like KnightErrant said, it's not like I'm not going to buy the magazine any more--I just need to make sure I don't take 341 to any sessions where new players are being introduced to the game ;)
Paizo obviously knows what the best methods are to market their products. If that means giving D&D's critics the middle finger, then so be it. I just don't think the world is so easily classified as black & white.
My group has been worshipping demons and devils for quite some time actually. I found the suggestion on the cover to "bow down to Baphomet" a good one. My occult group of Tokien and C.S. Lewis reading black magic casting witches and warlocks thank you, Dragon magazine. Your occult tips have always been spot on.
Yours Truly,
Black Leaf
OK. Seriously, my first impression when I saw that tag line was "Hmmm. That's a little iffy." But, you know what? Whatever. If it's not that, it'll just be something else. I'm actually a very religious Christian and I honestly can't say that I've heard any announcements against Dungeons & Dragons in my church circles in many, many years.
However, the stigmatism is still there. For instance, when I told my father (the man that forced me to tear up all of my D&D stuff when I was 14 years old) that I had been published in Dungeon last year about all I got was an awkward, "Oh? Well... uh, good for you. You're still playing that game?"
It is still in the back of many people's minds that were caught up in the furor of the 80's that labeled our hobby a springboard to devil worship and witchcraft. Let's not be so quick to dismiss F2K's concerns. We've moved on, but people like Sebastian can't possibly speak for the millions of people that remember those times and still believe in the back of their minds that our favorite hobby is evil somehow.
James, there have to got to be dozens of other catchy cover phrases to get the attention of potential buyers and advertise the Baphomet article. Let's not be silly with the rationalizations. Personally, I have no problem with it, but after all of the backlash over the demon prince headline from that last issue, why would you guys just go and do the same thing all over again? Does it really sell more magazines? I mean if it's really working to improve sales, I'll just shut up.
OK. Well, I've had my say.
I don't think most of us are even crying for action here, just to note that this was perhaps close to a line and that some of us are sensitive to it.
Exact.
James, there have to got to be dozens of other catchy cover phrases to get the attention of potential buyers and advertise the Baphomet article. Let's not be silly with the rationalizations. Personally, I have no problem with it, but after all of the backlash over the demon prince headline from that last issue, why would you guys just go and do the same thing all over again? Does it really sell more magazines? I mean if it's really working to improve sales, I'll just shut up.OK. Well, I've had my say.
Pretty much. The concern here isn’t really (for me anyway) that the tagline will or wont attract more sales or cause a crusade of some kind against D&D but that it makes our jobs harder to defend our hobby. More so, most Christians (I suspect could be way off base) maybe a tad wary of seeing stuff like that. Don't forget for many of us demons and devils are real and even jesting about it makes me uncomfortable. I wouldn’t be surprised if Moslems or any other religion that considers these entities real to some extent may be somewhat sensitive to it.
*shrug* just a minor concern. It’s not like Dungeon or Dragon is Christian magazines so I don’t hold them up to any kind of morale standard. Just seems to me some other tagline without implying demon worship would work just as well.
I think that the title could have been better. There is still a negative image with gamers and other unusual groups. Take a look at the show "Bones" on Fox. Last week they had a group of superhero LARPers. There was some concern for a good part of the show that people like that get into character too much and begin to confuse reality and fantasy. While this is just a TV show, if you see how the public feels about CSI and what they can do, you know that the public thinks that crime dramas that simulate reality in some way are true more often than not. With titles like this, the general public is given fuel for their fire.
All that being said, I doubt that this is going to be the thing that brings the gaming industry to an end. I think we can recover from this rather easily. The public may be idiots, but they also tend to have short memories.
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In all honesty the first things
I noticed about this monthes issue
when I recieved it friday were the
cover art(sweet), and the Pact Magic
Headline, it actually took me a little
while to notice the whole demon prince
article, and I've been waiting for these.
as a gamer who started the hobby at around 10
or so back in the 80's yeah I remember the whole
satanism thing going on, I even remember the Tom
Hanks movie "Monsters and Mazes".
there are still those narrow minded people out there who would love to start this kind of crusade again but thankfully thay have other petty things to whine about, besides they are the last group of people I would expect to see in a game shop.
game on
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The cover lines for the magazine are intended to be eye-catching, and in some cases, I suppose even controversial. That said, the first Demonomicon issue had a cover line that said, "SERVE D&D'S ORIGINAL DEMON PRINCE." This cover line raised a few similar questions here on the messageboards, but it was nothing compared to the outflow of concern about Dragon showing too much skin on the same cover.
Personally, I feel that when TSR took drastic steps to sanitize D&D back in the 2nd edition days, they ended up doing a LOT more damage to the brand than outrage over demonic content ever did. In the end, those who hate or distrust the game are going to keep on doing so, despite what may or may not appear on the cover of magazines here and there. I know many Christian gamers (some of whom work here at Paizo), and they can certainly handle cover lines like this.
I'm not trying to sound callous or anything, but the simple fact is that in order for the magazine (and the hobby in general) to survive, we need to focus on pleasing our customers and target audience and worry less about pleasing those who have no interest or actively dislike the genre the game is rooted in.
I have to say that I completely agree with James' thoughts. The cover lines are meant to draw attention, and any move to limit them only hurts the creativity of the magazine's writers. Anyone who has arguments against the game will likely not have their minds changed just because we censor ourselves.
I myself am a conservative. I was born and raised a Catholic, and though I no longer practice, still try to live my life according to the basic principles of our country, most of which stems from Western, Christian thought. When I first got into fantasy literature, it was with the Narnia books and Tolkien books. From their, I went on to Dragonlance, and eventually found my way to D&D. In all this I was fortunate enough to have caring parents who, though they might shake their heads on occasion, rarely limited my actvities. They saw my hobbies as a sign of a healthy, curious, and open mind; the kind of thing that could (hopefully) take me far. They trusted me to make the right choices. I don't think I've disappointed them.
What I see on this thread is a healthy discussion of a subject that we all hold dear (D&D) and the repercussions (or lack thereof)of a controversial issue within that subject. I am pleased that so many gamers out there who have children will take the time to speak up about their concerns. It shows that they take a great interest in their children's lives (much as my parents did). I would ask them to trust in their children's judgement that they can understand that this is just a game and should not be taken too seriously.
I also would call upon the magazine's writers to think a bit more before they print a certain line or show a certain picture. Does controversy sell? Yes! Do they have a right to print what they want? Absolutely! Does this mean that they SHOULD print anything? Not necessarily. I'm sure there have been several instances when the publishers did not inlcude something that they thought might be too controversial, and for that I applaud them.
Thanks for reading my humble opinion.
-Aberzombie
I have to echo James on this one, too.
Despite all of the sanitazation, and all of the "don't ever say DEVIL!" stuff TSR did, people who thought D&D was evil still thought D&D was evil. You couldn't discourage that. These people will look at the magic, the scanitly clad females, the violence, the non-Chritisan deities, whatever. If someone is scared of the Demons, then you probably weren't going to have them around long anyways.
Furthermore, it hurt the core players of the game. We all knew they were devils and demons, and it felt foolish to contend otherwise. Let us have our fun. I would much rather say "You face down the terrible Demon Prince!" than "You face down the terrible Tanar'ri!" It is more fun, it is way more cool.
I also think you aren't giving people enough credit. If they are reasonable enough to talk to you and look through your books, then you can explain that the demons are the bad guys, and that it is, after all, a game. Most rational people don't see it as a problem once it is discussed.
Society has changed since the late 80s; alot of gamers have inherited the D&D-as-devil-worship stigma from older brothers and guys at the FLGS. Few ever encounter it. We have tons of references to evil in popular culture, in video games and movies and on tv, and people are not so sensitive.
Most people I talk to about D&D now think of it as a dork pasttime, not devil worship. I think the idea of this fear is overblown. The standard parent assumes you are playing Yu-gi-oh.
These potential customers, walking through the FLGS or a bookstore, probably are not phased by Baphomet. They are probably just coming back from an R-rated slasher flick, or are on the way to buy their kids an MA rated viedo game. Much of the fear of corruption has moved from RPGs to video games and the internet. I would be willing to bet most wouldn't be able to pick Baphomet's name from a lineup of potential demon names.
In my experience with older people now (older than me, at least, I'm 25), by the time you explain an RPG to them, they already are convinced it can't be evil. That much writing and thinking has to be something dorks do.
Basically, I think the fear is overblown and overexaggerated. It is not worth it to spend any amount of time fretting over what a few parents might think if they see it.
I wonder if Satanist parents ever worry about 'loosing' their kids to D&D.... :D
Håvard
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I am an old DM/player (early 30's) just getting back in to the game and I clearly remember the witch-hunt days of D&D, but this cover isn't even close to being offensive. There will always be a small percentage of people that see the word "demon" and automatically think that anyone who reads the magazine is going to "bow down and lick Satan's bootstraps", but of course the truth is much less exciting. If someone doesn't want to game with you because of the cover, light the magazine on fire and prove to them that it doesn't "scream" like the 1st edition DMG will! It scares me that this thread even exists over something so small. I run a small record label that releases underground gore/death/grind bands and I can only imagine what would happen if any of the CD's and Vinyl I have released ended up in the wrong hands. Luckily, Paizo isn't releasing the new BURN VICTIM cd and Paizo continues to deliver some great magazines for gamers of all ages. I really enjoy all of the great artwork and articles about the various pantheons in both of the D&D magazines and I hope that no one tries to make the game bland by regulating the demonic imagery. Let's face it, saying "Bow down before Baphomet" just makes the whole thing fun and exciting, adding to the feel of the game. At the end of the day Slayer was amazing, and Stryper was totally lame. Keep em comin!
How does it scare you that this thread exists? None of us that have been concerned have been decrying the editors, or demanding appologies, or anything of the like. This has just been a discussion on how this cover tag line concerns us a little because of either our own previous experience or our backgrounds.
No worries here. I'm more concerned that we start policing ourselves out of fear than of any reprisal for "demon worship." Besides homosexuality is this decade's watchword: evil outsiders are so passe!
Many seem to think that this might lower sales, but no one suggests that it might actually increase them. I guarantee that the editors will be comparing sales to previous issues and deciding whether including instructions on how to gain the horned-god's favor were a good idea or not.
Yes, I can remember the furor from the '80s, but I simply don't think that we need to worry about that again.
I think the reason the cover title drew my attention is because of the aforementioned perusual of my D&D books by the parents of the teenagers whom we were introducing to D&D. I thought it was good parenting, but it did give me a second thought about what a "casual" glance might find inside the books.
I introduced my stepbrothers to the game when they were 15 and 16 respectively, in 1998, which wasn't so long ago. I bought them about $100 worth of books and stuff to get started. Their grandmother, who was raising them, found the stuff a few months later and took it to her church to have it blessed, then burned. (Hey thanks, can I get my $100 back??).
In the 80's, my first characters that I rolled up all worshipped "God" and the cleric I rolled up was allowed to worship "God" so that I didn't have any queasy feelings about the game. I outgrew that within a few months when I realized that the game didn't threaten my beliefs.
I think the reason I'm a bit paranoid of this issue is explainable. While many of you don't agree, some of you have, so at least I know that I'm not alone.
So, I hope those of you that the flagrant title on 341 doesn't concern at all are right--this issue is passe' and will never rear its ugly head again in the greater public consciousness.
(Or at least stay off daytime talkshows!)
As I mentioned, my concern is mostly for the hobby as a whole--there ARE still some good, concerned parents out there who MIGHT get second thoughts about letting their kids play D&D if they find such magazine covers as 341 being displayed. The attitude that has been displayed is that "kids today see so much worse on TV/Cinema and play super-violent video games" that issues of demon worshipping in D&D are no big deal.
That may be so, but video games and violent movies are much more "mainstream" than paper and pencil RPG's...which have an inherent "weirdness" in them to most people that the mention of satanism and such in the context of D&D might be blown out of proportion.