more deversity would work better
more deversity would work better
Because the world is still a very prejudice place, and people from all over, are still getting misinformed about us. I think its a great idea that someone is making avatars for us, how about a black racer car driver for me, as well as a cool upstanding black star ship captain (because I still like to visit various forums, regarding my pc games, as well as car design cg graphics sites).
Senior Software Developer
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Actually the avatars come from the art files of the past few issues of Dragon and Dungeon. We don't really create imagery specifically to use for avatars.
Every few months someone gets a spare hour and pulls all the images we can find off the magazine production server, then trolls through them looking for faces.
The only criteria we have is that it look recognizably like a face or other distinctive image that conveys the notion of "identity" in some fashion. (For example, my floating eyeball is not really a face.)
So you see a lot of monsters, tieflings, paladins, rogues and whatnot, because that's what's usually featured in the art for the magazines.
I have around 235 potential avatar source images on my desktop right now, from which I may be able to pull a few dozen new avatars. We'll see what comes up.
In the meantime, there's always Roy. :D
Good point. We'll look into it.
--Erik
Erik-sama, while you're at it why not add some Asian themes as well :)
That's just my two centavos on this.
WotC is rather guilty of this more than Dragon. Though lately they've been working towards more racial diversity in their art, thankfully. Why, the Dread Necromancer in Heroes of Horror used an asian woman as the art for that class.
I didn't find any more avatars for black people, but I did add another 16 avatars just now.
I still have another 197 potential source images on my desktop to go through, so there might be a few in there.
Awesome! My very own avatar. At least until 37 other people pick this one too...
Hunter
Why don't midgets have avatars?
How about avatars for lesbians?
I'm just being sarcastic.
True there could be more "black" and "asian" avatars; these guys are doing the best they can with the pictures they have.
And what's wrong with picking a minotaur or demon avatar? Race is pointless on messageboards.
Ultradan
Perhaps the problem is being defined too narrowly. There are few avatars available with black or asian faces because you (and WotC) don't specifically ask for such faces in your commissioned artwork (unless you count Drow), and most fantasy artists do European-looking characters as a default. If you ask for a few more of these in your commissioned pieces, that should net you a few more usable icons, should it not? (Granted this is a somewhat longer-term solution to the problem--take it as a suggestion for marketing D&D outside the traditional white audience).
P.S. As short term suggestions: 1) The bald sorcerer iconic might pass for being some kind of person of color, and the ranger iconic with the kitty-cat hood might pass for Asian or native American. Aren't there any usable clips of these two you could turn into avatars? 2) Also thinking back there were a couple of articles some time ago on the Al-Qadim setting, and one on the (*forgot name*) FR "New World" setting that, as I recall, had some illustrations that could be used to boost avatar diversity. 3) I don't know if Drow do the job, but the one in the MM is a good drawing and uses dark brown instead of the usual purple to represent the ebon tone of Drow skin, so it might be a bit closer to the mark. (White hair, though). (Purple and gray Drow are an artistic convention that drives me nuts, although maybe there is some valid reason for it--I've always imagined them having the beautiful dark brown, almost black skin of a Nubian warrior, but maybe that makes it hard to see their features in a painting.)
I think one of the areas you may be thinking of is Maztica which was based heavily if not entirely on the Aztecs and Mayans. There was a 3rd party book dealing with African adventures for 3rd Ed play called Nyambe I believe. Beyond this there was a whole series of articles in Dragon that dealt with RP in an African type setting. Much of this could be adapted and some of the illustrations could be snapped up for avatars if Paizo can get the rights to them. That and try to borrow as much as possible from OA for Asians. Besides that weren't there some illustration of ethnic folk done for the various issues of Polyhedron that you can sneak in for avatars?
(Purple and gray Drow are an artistic convention that drives me nuts, although maybe there is some valid reason for it--I've always imagined them having the beautiful dark brown, almost black skin of a Nubian warrior, but maybe that makes it hard to see their features in a painting.)
That would be it. Trying to define features with very dark skin is a pain in the rear to try to recreate - it's worse in monochromatic media. I've found myself lightening/darkening skin in order to show details and shading better, particularly for drow.
more deversity would work better
What the hell?
7 pages of cartoons of fantasy races, monsters, stick figures and photos of minis, how is that black or white?I am simply amazed anyone took this seriously. It's the most inane, spectacularly ridiculous thing I've seen in quite some time.
But, hey, since we're whining about nothing...
Why are there no avatars for 30-something out of shape white guys? All these buff heroes make me feel insecure...
Oh, and by the way, it's spelled dIversity.
But, hey, since we're whining about nothing...
Why are there no avatars for 30-something out of shape white guys? All these buff heroes make me feel insecure...
*fails saving throw to avoid damage from adult red dragon's breath due to being a slow, heavily armored cleric*
As an out of shape 40 year old white guy, I resemble that remark. But, at the risk of sounding like an old fashioned liberal, I hope that we can keep this unusually civil forum unusually civil by responding to others as though we are in the same room with them. And since we're not editing this for publication, there's no need to waste time correcting people's typing, IMHO.
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I agree that civility is needed. You want to rant: go to the rant thread. If I wanted to have flamewars I would go to WOTC's messageboard where all the playground antics are in full effect and bashing someone with words is the norm. I post here, due in major part, to the feeling of brotherhood I have with my fellow posters. If someone who has recieved unfair treatment all their life due to race/color/creed/appearance whatever feels a little slighted by something like avatar selection, then who am I to try to invalidate their feelings. The response that the Paizo staff has shown is a credit to the organization and a reaffirmation of everything that I, and most likely my fellow posters agree, love about these messageboards. I think an apology should be made to the original poster. He/she deserves it.
as always IMO
FH
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As a white guy (also out of shape), I've got no problem with there being more avatars of "race". We want avatars that represent us in some way, so it can be frustrating ( as it was for me - I don't really care for my avatar that much, but it was closest to the concept of the character from which I drew my online moniker) so why not. If no one says anything, the staff at Paizo would never know.
"What the hell?
7 pages of cartoons of fantasy races, monsters, stick figures and photos of minis, how is that black or white?
I am simply amazed anyone took this seriously. It's the most inane, spectacularly ridiculous thing I've seen in quite some time.
But, hey, since we're whining about nothing...
Why are there no avatars for 30-something out of shape white guys? All these buff heroes make me feel insecure...
Oh, and by the way, it's spelled dIversity."
HaHaHA Finally someone with the guts to call it for what it is!Why do we have to jump when someone plays the "race" card even in the most pointless situations? Ban White Dragons!How ridiculous can this get...wait it just did..lol
Thank you Paizo, for having an avatar of an evil, vaguely turnip-shaped creature.
Evilturnip has been my online handle for over a decade now, and I finally feel like I've got an avatar that fits.
Many people want a Avatar to represent themselve's. So I believe we should not insult those wanting to represent themselves. This is a Friendly and hopefully non Racist place. So if someone want to represent themselves back them up. (i'm represented by my avatar,good lier=lizard/snake thing)So if those who insulted could plz Forgive them.
I do not believe people are trying to insult others here. No apologies are necessary, as far as I can see. Some people are tired of seeing a certain cycle perpetuating(sp?) itself every time someone doesn't like their choices.
Kudos to the staff, they replied as quickly as they could when a problem was brought to their attention. Perhaps the OP could have been less standoffish? Not everything is a racial attack or stance.
I am not now, nor will I ever be Politically Correct. I am a talking wolf with a right to express my opinion. If you disagree with my right, cool. That is your right and I will not deny that to you.
Diversity means dealing with a whole lot of choices and aspects that you may not like. Sorry, suck it up. Better yet, join the military. Then you can be green, like everyone else(for those of us in the States).
I live in California, in the SF Bay Area. Diversity? We run the gamut out here. I love it. Wouldn't change it. We all have our issues--even us talking animals, stick figures, cartoons, monsters, etc.. YOU choose what offends you.
And Liberty will die, not with a bang, but with a whimper.
I am guessing you mean more black images and not something else which I cannot even guess at, perhaps you could clarify; there certainly aren't any images I would consider cultural for me. My avatar, which is probably originaly Persian, would look strange in black; a black efreeti, might look cool though, never know till you try. Disney did a genie, the good version of a efreeti, in blue and it seemed to go over well.
It would be cool to have a lot more Avatars; though they have added quite a few in my time on the boards. I am curious what they will come up with as they said the original poster had a good point and it was more or less an oversight. Are they going to add more PC avatars for those of us who don't consider ourselves part of the WASP culture...Skating in the PC ice rink is hard; everyone falls down adventually and gets hurt. I couldnt be PC if I tried, I just try to be polite.
I seriously doubt this avatar thing has anything to do with any kind of prejudice, imho, roleplayers are the least racially prejudice people on the planet, I would suppose this is because you try to get into the minds of so many different characters and player or monster races and primarily get together to have a fun time and everyone is generally happy to be involved. $0.02
Why don't midgets have avatars?
How about avatars for lesbians?
I'm just being sarcastic.
True there could be more "black" and "asian" avatars; these guys are doing the best they can with the pictures they have.
And what's wrong with picking a minotaur or demon avatar? Race is pointless on messageboards.
Ultradan
hehe more sarcasm; how about girls that are guys and guys that are girls; you all know who you are lurking behind some other sex; female and male are pointless on the message boards too, but what can you do, I like my efreeti, fits me and I dont want a sexless, raceless robot thinging or blob of goo.
I am all for more avatars regarless; good work Piazo, if anyone feels strongly about this sort of thing; I suppose you could draw some giving rights to piazo to publish ect and submit them for avatars. Wonder what the rules on this would be; it would be really cool to have several thousand avatars to choose from; would help those who want to be unique.
I am not usually one to pile on, but there are so many races in DnD that the game itself embraces diversity.
However, another prickley question to ask is when is paizo going to start publishing multi-lingual magazines - specifically in spanish?
Actually, I would subscribe to a version in Japanese!
Maybe they could mix it all together and provide a babblefish decoder for each issue...
hmm... I am going to make an adventure with a Tower of Babble in it now. cheers!
There is so much diversity in DnD now. Stop trying to make this racial. I am white and proud. Why no white Drow? If you do not like the races then do not play.
I remember that back when I was reading Living Greyhawk or maybe the Greyhawk Gazetteer I noticed that the major human race descriptions didn't particularly match those of us caucosoids here on Earth. I was thinking that such a measure may have been specifically designed to keep the whole question of D&D whitey dominance out of the picture. The same way every other description defaults on "she" rather than the previous universal default of "he" when describing classes. There is a river thick vein of PC running through D&D already.
The avatars are mostly thumbs of published art. The art is, I'd guess, based around impressing the majority audience. The majority audience is, I'd guess, white. I think it's completely sensible that a black person would lobby for black avatars, but I think their best chance of getting some would be to recruit as many other black people to play as possible. With greater numbers come greater influence.
Sound the bell.
The same way every other description defaults on "she" rather than the previous universal default of "he" when describing classes. There is a river thick vein of PC running through D&D already.
Actually, there is some rhyme and reason behind the alternating pronouns in character class descriptions in the WoTC books. The pronoun that corresponds to the gender of the iconic class member is used. Since Lidda is the iconic rogue, she/her is used when talking about rogues. Since Tordek is the iconic fighter, he/him/his is used when talking about fighters.
The same way every other description defaults on "she" rather than the previous universal default of "he" when describing classes. There is a river thick vein of PC running through D&D already.Actually, there is some rhyme and reason behind the alternating pronouns in character class descriptions in the WoTC books. The pronoun that corresponds to the gender of the iconic class member is used. Since Lidda is the iconic rogue, she/her is used when talking about rogues. Since Tordek is the iconic fighter, he/him/his is used when talking about fighters.
Hmm... velly intelesting. Thanks, Philarete.
But why do they use the same alteration in all of the prestige class descriptions in all of their various supplemental books? This one male, next one female, next one male, one after that female.
...female and male are pointless on the message boards too, but what can you do...?
Assume incorrectly at times, apologize if offense was given, and blame it on the glare from the SUPERNOVA.
LG
Oh yeah, I know its only one avatar among the rest, but the new bald iconic sorcerer is pretty cool. AND I wouldn't want to mess with the wizard that graces the front of The Complete Arcane...what about an avatar for him?
From what I've read recently, the current trend in professional writing, when using pronouns that refer to multiple hypothetical persons, is to alternate between male and female for each person in the example. Alternately, it is acceptable to use the profile that corresponds to the writer's gender, so a male writer may use all HEs and a female writer can use all SHEs.
Wow, I think my English Lit degree just came in handy for the first time since graduating.
But why do they use the same alteration in all of the prestige class descriptions in all of their various supplemental books? This one male, next one female, next one male, one after that female.
more deversity would work better
Because any offered would open the door to saying that Paizo would be "stereotyping africans". So unless they change all the avatar to Greyhawk human races (which I'd be perectly content with) lets leave the omnipresent racial issues out of it.
From what I've read recently, the current trend in professional writing, when using pronouns that refer to multiple hypothetical persons, is to alternate between male and female for each person in the example. Alternately, it is acceptable to use the profile that corresponds to the writer's gender, so a male writer may use all HEs and a female writer can use all SHEs.
Wow, I think my English Lit degree just came in handy for the first time since graduating.
The English language has no non sexist pronoun; it has been a real problem everyone has been working on for a few decades, but nothing proposed has yet to be accepted. It has always been correct to use the he pronoun in general usage to denote anyone, but as the canon is now broken to bits all these issues are quite confused and we have no language changes to keep up with current liberal trends. I believe this is more or less true of things like avatars also, Piazo probably just picked avatars they thought were neat, colorful and descriptive for a wide audience intending to add others as they became available adding more as requested by their customer base. I really dont see that is is reasonable for anyone to be offended by that; wait a few years and see what is available then; if you still dont have the type of things that inspire you; then rant.
But why do they use the same alteration in all of the prestige class descriptions in all of their various supplemental books? This one male, next one female, next one male, one after that female.
From what I've read recently, the current trend in professional writing, when using pronouns that refer to multiple hypothetical persons, is to alternate between male and female for each person in the example. Alternately, it is acceptable to use the profile that corresponds to the writer's gender, so a male writer may use all HEs and a female writer can use all SHEs.
Wow, I think my English Lit degree just came in handy for the first time since graduating.
But why do they use the same alteration in all of the prestige class descriptions in all of their various supplemental books? This one male, next one female, next one male, one after that female.
Thank ye. :)
The English language has no non sexist pronoun; it has been a real problem everyone has been working on for a few decades, but nothing proposed has yet to be accepted. It has always been correct to use the he pronoun in general usage to denote anyone, but as the canon is now broken to bits all these issues are quite confused and we have no language changes to keep up with current liberal trends. I believe this is more or less true of things like avatars also, Piazo probably just picked avatars they thought were neat, colorful and descriptive for a wide audience intending to add others as they became available adding more as requested by their customer base. I really dont see that is is reasonable for anyone to be offended by that; wait a few years and see what is available then; if you still dont have the type of things that inspire you; then rant.
I stand educated. Thanks. :)
more deversity would work better
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Chief Technical Officer
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when is paizo going to start publishing multi-lingual magazines - specifically in spanish?
We're unlikely to do such a thing, but are able to license out such translations if you know a professional spanish magazine publisher that's interested. (Currently, there's an Italian publisher.)
Actually, I would subscribe to a version in Japanese!
While we haven't got that going for Dungeon or Dragon, some of our GameMastery Compleat Encounters have been translated into Japanese and Italian.
-Vic.
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