New cover looks awesome! And strangely familiar. I'm not what anyone would really call a 'feminist' (well, my chauvenist friends often do ;-)) but I'm getting a little tired of the exposed cleavage poses. Not that I don't appreciate fine female flesh, but I look back on this year's covers and go, "Hmm. So cover models have to be evil, hot, and show the top of their breasts in a cutout." This new necromancer (?) chick. Dhusarra from the Vampire trilogy. The peekaboo mummy, the tiefling chick, the Lady of Pain (the Lady of Pain shows cleavage?!?!)
Just for a change of pace, can we see some female heroes who don't bare their breasts? I loved the covers of Iggwilv and the drow chick from the Istvin trilogy. Thanks. :-)
-Amber S.
Well how about this one?
;)
GGG
PS "The best beauty is cruel beauty, according to all the members of the Dungeon staff."
From the table of contents page of Dungeon 110.
Geez -- the new issue of DUNGEON shipped yesterday, and I still have yet to get my issue from LAST month...*sigh*
I wonder if most fantasy worlds are warmer than ours is (especially now, here in Iowa)...I know I'd freeze if I wore the kinds of clothing/armor depicted on some of the covers!
It sure looks good!
Matter of fact, it could well be my favorite cover since issue 124.
There's no such thing as too much cleavage. :D
I kept looking for the caption: "Cleric of Wee Jas bares all! Centerfold pull-out inside!" but I guess we will have to wait for a later issue. ;-)
I would like to go on the record as supporting cleavage.
Sex sells.
I'm with Medesha on this one - a little VARIETY sells...
Cleavage, month in and month out, gets tired.
Implied perception of magnificent gazongas behind flowing robes can be just as sexy as half a nipple poking out from behind that plate mail bikini. Maybe it's because I've outgrown the twenty-something geek urge to see skin, but I'm sure it's just a matter of varied taste.
Give me some heavily robed wizard-babe...
*which begs the need for a knock-style, "unwrap/disrobe" spell ;-)
M
They already have variety -- lots of men covers, kraken covers, vomiting dragon covers.
It just seems rare that when a woman gets prime billing on the cover (i.e. she's not the 2-inch tall member of an adventuring party) she has to display her huge gazongas.
Which is fine -- see my avatar -- but I'd like a little variety -- see Iggwilv and drow chick.
I know they value artistic value and variety over "sex sells," otherwise they'd have hot mummy chicks on the cover of every issue.
I feel it's important to express my opinion to the editors, so they know what one of their readers wants and likes. :-) Happy holidays, everyone!
-Amber S.
Creative Director
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It's true: Sex Sells. We have monthly circulation meetings where we look over how well the magazines do in the bookstores—and the main way to sell magazines in bookstores is by the covers. And lo and behold... the cleavage covers tend to sell well.
Additionally, the character on the cover of Dungeon #131 isn't just a random character; it's our iconic cleric who's appeared on covers before and in the magazine, so her penchant for showing cleavage had been established well in advance of her run on the cover of #131.
Finally... check out the cover to the previous issue. #130. The samurai on the cover there is a woman (part of the art order I wrote explicitly asked for a non-cleavage warrior woman)... it's just hard to tell since she's almost completely in armor. Time will tell if this cover worked or not, but we certainly do aim for variety on the Dungeon side at least. Can't speak for those sketchy Dragon folk though...
Remember, it could be worse - I can recall reading InQuest in middle school and owning several issues with honest-to-god "the girls of Magic" SWIMSUIT sections. At least we try to put it in the context of the game. : P
Well how about this one?
;)
GGGPS "The best beauty is cruel beauty, according to all the members of the Dungeon staff."
From the table of contents page of Dungeon 110.
Matt -
I appreciated that one a lot! I'm sure my husband did too!
- Ashavan
I'm fine with cleavage (in fact I like it very much!). But I don't mind if they use it less. It's not like you can't find cleavage elsewhere...
Remember, it could be worse - I can recall reading InQuest in middle school and owning several issues with honest-to-god "the girls of Magic" SWIMSUIT sections. At least we try to put it in the context of the game. : P
Yeah it could be a lot worse. Just look at Dead or Alive: Beach Volleyball. Unnaturally (outside of SoCal) proportioned ninja models in bikinis playing beach volley ball.
How about: RPGA Challenge of Champions: All Star Women of Fantasy Throw Down! With special guest stars... ;)
If it was anyone other than the cleric of Wee Jas I would complain about the cover of #131, but as is I just can't. Dragon #339 on the other hand...that is not the Lady of Pain, clevage or no clevage that's just not the Lady. Overall I like to see clothing appropriate for the person, creature or deity wearing it.
Yeah it could be a lot worse. Just look at Dead or Alive: Beach Volleyball. Unnaturally (outside of SoCal) proportioned ninja models in bikinis playing beach volley ball.
;)
I'm looking, I'm looking!!!
GGG
PS I like it when they jump.
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I have a subscription to "Play" magazine (electronic gaming) that I have decided to let lapse due to the over-use of scantily-clad artwork. I feel a little embarassed to be seen with something so provocative in public. Love women, love cleavage, its just that I grew up and would rather see awesome depictions of the creatures we all battle. I miss the old cover art with beautifully drawn dragons and such. Sex sells but it can also alienate an audience.
FH (35 yrs old in case anyone wonders)
I'm a 30-year-old man, not a 14-year-old boy. I like the overall style of the cover in question, but I think scantily clad women for covers of Dragon and Dungeon Magazines are too common to pass off as something more than just a ploy to get a sale from as many "boys" as possible. Truthfully, I find female drawings such as the cover with Iggwilv and Grazz't (#121) more attractive anyway.
I love the female form, but I don't think its something that should be trivialized as a device to sell a product. I also think it adds to the negative stigma that surrounds Dungeons & Dragons and its players.
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Creative Director
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I have a subscription to "Play" magazine (electronic gaming) that I have decided to let lapse due to the over-use of scantily-clad artwork. I feel a little embarassed to be seen with something so provocative in public. Love women, love cleavage, its just that I grew up and would rather see awesome depictions of the creatures we all battle. I miss the old cover art with beautifully drawn dragons and such. Sex sells but it can also alienate an audience.
FH (35 yrs old in case anyone wonders)
I wish Dungeon had as many subscribers as Play...
On a more serious note, don't expect to see Dungeon abandon the time-honored practice of cheesecake on the cover. Every time one of the magazines has a racy cover, it gets people talking and more issues sell. In other words, the cleavage, like it or not, does the job.
But you're absolutely right, Fake Healer; it can alienate the audience. Which is why this tactic won't be used on every cover. Other tactics we're using on upcoming covers is another cover featuring a classic D&D Demon Lord (along the lines of our Graz'zt and Demogorgon covers) and the "Let's show a cool, classic D&D fight with some iconic D&D monsters". Neither of these two covers (for issues #132 and #133 respectively) have cleavage as the focus.
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By the way, I thought the party "playing" with the black dragon outside the Whispering Cairn was great. When I mentioned Play mag. I only meant that every single cover is almost exactly the same. Women with future back problems toting the latest anime style tree-chopper or bang-stick. Its not something I want to lug to my daughter's dance class. There have been some Dungeon mags that I didn't want public eye to see me with because of the looks you get from women thinking you're some Perv........not that I'm not one but thats another story...
FH
It's true: Sex Sells.
Anyone with a Business Degree, Business background, or even one Marketing class knows this is rule number 1.
I’m a Marketing Major myself, and I’m not justifying it, just stating a widely adhered to academic theory passed off as fact.
James and most other persons in a position of making sales decisions must walk a fine line. They have to have art like this to attract new or occasional readers, but cannot have so much that it turns away others like the ones who feel modesty should be in order.
For the record, I don’t care if the cover art is done in crayon by a 4 year old – as long as they keep pumping out great adventures, I’m buying it.
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Creative Director
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Having every single cover look almost exactly the same is another magazine-industry theory. Namely; if you change your cover too drasticly, then how will people know to look for your magazine when they're scanning over the dozens of magazines on the shelf?
I don't really agree with this theory for most magazines. It makes sense for magazines that sell on supermarket checkout line racks, but that's about it.
Every time one of the magazines has a racy cover, it gets people talking and more issues sell. In other words, the cleavage, like it or not, does the job.
For the record, I wouldn't say this particular cover is racy per se.
I'm with Medesha on this one - a little VARIETY sells...
Cleavage, month in and month out, gets tired.
Exactly! I mean there's an "A" in "T and A" after all! ;)
Implied perception of magnificent gazongas behind flowing robes can be just as sexy as half a nipple poking out from behind that plate mail bikini. Maybe it's because I've outgrown the twenty-something geek urge to see skin, but I'm sure it's just a matter of varied taste.
I think I need cold shower now.
Give me some heavily robed wizard-babe...
*which begs the need for a knock-style, "unwrap/disrobe" spell ;-)
M
There is such a spell in Sword and Sorcery's: Relics and Rituals I do believe. It's called Unbuckle (3rd level arcane(?)) and it's usable in other forms of hand-to-hand combat as well.
GGG
If I read Medesha correctly, she's not even asking for an end to female sex appeal on the cover - she's just asking for something other than cleavage shot after cleavage shot. Show some leg already!
I've set aside a bit of time to trying to understand why many women are turned off by gaming advertisements. You could find a rather lengthy rant by Sheri Ray in bookform as "Gender Inclusive Game Design" which includes some good points. Most of them having nothing to do with magazine cover art, but it's a book worth reading.
From what I've seen, the single biggest thing with the portrayal of women is that your audience, male or female, wants to be able to identify with characters in the story. If the only female avatars available are hyper-sexualized, then women who aren't comfortable in that role aren't going to have anyone to identify with and are going to feel excluded.
There's a similar argument from wanting to look up to the characters: it's not that people don't want an avatar to look up to whose smoking hott, it's that they want their avatar to have other admirable traits, too. We want to look up to avatars that are powerful or courageous or clever or pious or thoughtful or
mysterious or graceful or whatever else. The girls want the same chance at admiring their avatars that the guys do in this regard, and many feel aren't getting it. Most people do want avatars that are dead sexy, but not everyone wants an avatar for whom that's the first, most dominant trait.
Being sensitive to the girls interested in the hobby has an obvious upside for the company and the players, too. For the company, you double your potential market. For the players, the boys finally get a chance to meet girls who share their interests, and vice versa. There's no doubt that sex sells, and at the same time a quick glance at the success of Vampire: the Masquerade or The Sims shows the benefits of welcoming girls to the gaming table.
There was a lot of buzz over Blue Rose for this reason. And I agree, Vampire did more to address the table top gaming gender gap than any other game out there.
GGG
PS They also had cool covers.
All this talk of minmaxing munchkins lately but no one has anything to say when cup sizes are getting maxed out. These cover woman are all fifth level boobomancers with feats in 'unnatural lift' and 'spellbinding hips'
Men come in all shapes and sizes on covers but women seem to be relegated to the Baywatch Greyhawk set.
My hobby mag is skinned to look like a metaphysical girly mag.
"Uh, yes. Brown paper bag please."
THAT'S HOW PAIZO GETS YOU! You're forced to subscribe out of embarassment at the counter! >:) Ba-RILLiant!
Edit: Violence outsells sex actually. So, Dungeon really has its bases covered. If we could only cover our scantilly clad demonesses in clothing of sewn together sandwiches we'd really have something there.
I appreciated that one a lot! I'm sure my husband did too!- Ashavan
Indeed. Now my guy wants me to order that issue. Heh.
All this talk of minmaxing munchkins lately but no one has anything to say when cup sizes are getting maxed out. These cover woman are all fifth level boobomancers with feats in 'unnatural lift' and 'spellbinding hips'
Men come in all shapes and sizes on covers but women seem to be relegated to the Baywatch Greyhawk set.
My hobby mag is skinned to look like a metaphysical girly mag.
"Uh, yes. Brown paper bag please."
THAT'S HOW PAIZO GETS YOU! You're forced to subscribe out of embarassment at the counter! >:) Ba-RILLiant!
Edit: Violence outsells sex actually. So, Dungeon really has its bases covered. If we could only cover our scantilly clad demonesses in clothing of sewn together sandwiches we'd really have something there.
Totally agree with this one. Everytime a female is represented, she has got a great figure. What happened to all the fat ladies??? Surely we should fill the magazine with a bit of variety. Can't a heroine be portly? And I mean portly, not buxom. :)
Balabar Smenk from AoW is a good example of an overweight iconic. The fact he is a rogue makes it even more strange. But it was different and I liked that. Lets have a few overweight women to balance it all out. We wouldn't want the men to tip the scales!
The new cover is great and count me in as supporting cleavage.
I'm afraid I can't really see what the fuss is about, I would not consider the cover racy. It is mild by european and even UK standards.
To throw an additional $0.02 in on this- I haven't read the Palace of Plenty yet, but I'll readily admit- I had no idea at all that the Samurai on the cover of last issue was a female. Sorry James.
I'm all in favor of the icnoic characters. I even like the Wonder-Woman outfit on the Wee Jas cleric. But I do find it rather annoying that any female depicted on the cover is a variant on Medieval Barbie.
The cynic in me also now thinks that one of the next covers will have a stereotypical witch on the cover- a standard old hag.
I realize the covers of the magazine are used to sell the contents, but what about some of the other contents? I brought issue #126 with me to work today (What can I say? I was planning on slacking today) and can't help but think a cover featuring Girddrez would've been SWEET.
Now to throw another monkey wrench into this debate- but a lot of the people posting here (the website as a whole- maybe not necessarily this post) are regular/semi-regular contributors to the magazine.
Given my theory that the cover is designed to sell the contents of the magazine- how many of you are including NON scantily clad/vivacious/buxom females in your adventures as major characters? Seems to me the editorial staff and art directors have their hands somewhat tied by the adventures that are being submitted by we as a collective. Not that I've been published... yet...
Tired of the endless cleavage shots? How about trying to give the paizo folks an easy fix. Write up a stand out female character in one of your submissions that doesn't support the stereotype.
With luck, it'll be published by Summer of '09 :)
I'm afraid I can't really see what the fuss is about, I would not consider the cover racy.
I know Amber pretty well, though I won't presume to actually speak for her. Here's my guess, though. There's no fuss at all about the cleavage. One of her favorite covers is the medusa that she uses for an avatar, after all. What I believe Amber is saying is that there ought to be a bit of variety when it comes to putting pictures of women on the cover. Sexy ladies are cool and, well, sexy; but not every woman has to have ample cleavage spilling out of her tunic.
Umberhulk cleavage?!
Troll cleavage!?!
Kobold kleavage!!??
Beholder cleavage!!!!
I mean, iconic creatures and all...
-------------------------------------------
Anyway, you know, I wasn't even all that aware of/focused on the cleavage on the cover (and yeah, I'm a red-blooded hetero fella). I was focused on the quality of the art and the mood the cover evoked.
The mood of the cover of a novel really helps me pick it up and give it a look-through.
I see a sci-fi novel with yet another spaceship orbiting a planet or flying through space...yawn.
I see a cool-looking monster, an insteresting planet's surface, you have some interest from me.
It's a little different with fantasy novels where I'd like to see an action scene ala the covers of Ed Greenwood's non-Forgotten Realm novels from Tor.
Now the covers of Dungeon of late have been very evokative of "mood".
== The feel of action from issue 114 as the PCs come rushing out at you.
== The terror of being engulfed by shadow monsters and being alone on issue 117.
== The evil and love/lust felt on the cover of issue 121.
== The adventure...the sheer THREAT on the cover of issue 124!
== The raw power of the illithid on issue 127.
== The brutality on the cover of issue 128.
== and now the dread and superiority on the cover of 131...
ALL great covers that do their job for me, if not for the masses: evoke a mood and make me want to explore the contents of the magazines.
Kudos to each of the artists and editors involved in creating these covers.
my 2c....
IMHO the more offensive things in recent Dragon & Dungeon mags are the "Goin' Postal" ads where a lady in a convention booth has to flaunt herself physically at a guy to get him interested in PBM!
what up with that?
what are the pros and cons of being a pro... at a con?
Well if the cleavage on the last cover bothered her the June cover, featuring my menacing Abolethian craftwork... the 11 foot tall Gazonga Golem, will really cause her to shed a tear. It is as gratuitously bouncy as it is lethal.
my 2c....
IMHO the more offensive things in recent Dragon & Dungeon mags are the "Goin' Postal" ads where a lady in a convention booth has to flaunt herself physically at a guy to get him interested in PBM!
what up with that?
what are the pros and cons of being a pro... at a con?
....and if someone named Loviatar's Whipping Boy is offended...well, 'nuff said!!!
....and if someone named Loviatar's Whipping Boy is offended...well, 'nuff said!!!
Careful, legend holds that he possesses a weapon of legacy: an orange rubber mouthball gag named Whammo The Muter.
Laugh now but that thing really irritates your lips on the side.
Careful, legend holds that he possesses a weapon of legacy: an orange rubber mouthball gag named Whammo The Muter.Laugh now but that thing really irritates your lips on the side.
Jade, can i confirm on behalf of my Dark Mistress your witching hour appointment with the lash? and given this arrogant outburst, i dare say She will insist on the gag this time.
nice to see how we can reduce a reasonable feminist argument to giggling sexual perversion
i mean if the lady in the ad WANTED to solicit herself, then that would be OK by me and by Miss L, just the ad doesn't make it clear if she's in control or just desperate for a sale. a sale of what i hear u ask?
Just for the record, with the comments about the female heroes with the nice figures . . . how many out of shape male adventurers have been featured on the covers?
Well how about this one?
;)
GGGPS "The best beauty is cruel beauty, according to all the members of the Dungeon staff."
From the table of contents page of Dungeon 110.
I find it silly to quote myself but it seems to me the boys at Paizo need a good spanking by the Chosen of Loviatar.
"We've been good! Really we have!"
G-Cube
Just for the record, with the comments about the female heroes with the nice figures . . . how many out of shape male adventurers have been featured on the covers?
Oh come on. All those guys the cover look just like about 90% of the -heh, heh- typical male ::smirk:: gaming populat- Meph, snork, Bwahahaha! Somebody take over! I can't go on! Hahahaha!
The teary eyed,
GGG
Hey, James (Sutter) pass the "man paste!" Hehehe!
Careful, legend holds that he possesses a weapon of legacy: an orange rubber mouthball gag named Whammo The Muter.Laugh now but that thing really irritates your lips on the side.
Jade, can i confirm on behalf of my Dark Mistress your witching hour appointment with the lash? and given this arrogant outburst, i dare say She will insist on the gag this time.
nice to see how we can reduce a reasonable feminist argument to giggling sexual perversion
i mean if the lady in the ad WANTED to solicit herself, then that would be OK by me and by Miss L, just the ad doesn't make it clear if she's in control or just desperate for a sale. a sale of what i hear u ask?
Actually I am in solidarity with the feminist front a few posts higher. I wasn't talking about an ad. I have no idea what you're talking about. That said... a weapon of legacy gag for Loviatar's Whipping Boy and a gazonga golem... I just had to. Call it a frisky spasm. Call it brain damage.
Tell Loviatar I have pictures of her being genuinely nice to a man and I'll release them to the public if she even once more sends a minion to threaten me. If that Morgan Fairchild lookalike wants a piece, she knows where to find me.
Actually I am in solidarity with the feminist front a few posts higher.
Me too. I'm all over feminist fronts.
;)
GGG
I'm afraid I can't really see what the fuss is about, I would not consider the cover racy.I know Amber pretty well, though I won't presume to actually speak for her. Here's my guess, though. There's no fuss at all about the cleavage. One of her favorite covers is the medusa that she uses for an avatar, after all. What I believe Amber is saying is that there ought to be a bit of variety when it comes to putting pictures of women on the cover. Sexy ladies are cool and, well, sexy; but not every woman has to have ample cleavage spilling out of her tunic.
There you go again, actually reading my posts instead of assuming you know what they're about. You ruin all my fun.
-Amber S.
P.S. James J, the samurai is way cool. I'm sorry I forgot to mention her.
Tired of the endless cleavage shots? How about trying to give the paizo folks an easy fix. Write up a stand out female character in one of your submissions that doesn't support the stereotype.
With luck, it'll be published by Summer of '09 :)
That could be cool.
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Oh come on. All those guys the cover look just like about 90% of the -heh, heh- typical male ::smirk:: gaming populat- Meph, snork, Bwahahaha! Somebody take over! I can't go on! Hahahaha!
Um, the guy on the cover of Dungeon 118 looks like a couple of gamers I know... big, pasty white complection, could do with a bit of a haircut...
"Sex sells so we're going to do it" - kind of empty of morals isn't it? Just seems like an incomplete reply to me.
"Samurai on the cover was a girl" - Of course it was. The flaunting crotch-shot is how we can tell (that's a joke)
The PBEM Ad - That ad is insulting, poor taste, and reflects badly on your magazine. You shouldn't have accepted it.
I don't mind the occasionally cleavage but I do agree with Amber - variety is good. I'm interested in cool art, boobs aren't required. A good fight scene, a nasty monster.
Just to mention: I too thought the PBEM advert a poor reflection on your magazine and had a prepubescent quality to it.
Let's stick to getting people to game by showing off it's qualities. This advert says to me that the game can't stand up on it's own and relies on another tact. Very very poor...
I guess its safe to say that you two (DMFTodd and Orcwart) neither live, or would ever consider visiting, Las Vegas based on what you might consider in poor taste. On the way to work, I passed 4 strip clubs, 7 bars, 2 casinos and trailed a taxi with an ad advertising the hottest nightspot in town. I love Las Vegas!
I'm really beside myself that this innocent drawing has conjured up so much turmoil - "morals", ha! That is laughable...I'm sure that while you take the time to type a post to rake Paizo across the coals for a drawing (that doesn't even come close to offensive), you've placed your coffee on your well-used Book of Vile Darkness.
You know, its easy for people to "arm-chair quarterback" what the cover of a magazine looks like when you have nothing at all to loose from it.