Goblin Squad Member
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The Walking Eye is one of many podcasts I listen to, and in this episode a previous host who's been away for a while comes back to share her perspectives on Eve. Since that game is something of an ancestor to PFO, a lot of the discussion may apply on a meta level.
Also, she reminds me of Proxima Sin... or at least the song at the end did.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Pretty interesting Keovar. Thanks for the link. Not something that I would normally seek out on my own, but something that I will look more into. I really want to understand these kinds of outlooks better.
I was intrigued a bit by how a professed "carebear" went down the dark path that she says that she has. It is very interesting how she describes feeling some residual guilt for the things that she has done and continues to do and at the same time, continues to do them. All just a game, except that she recognizes that it does hurt other people and also costs them real money and their lost time/effort.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was intrigued a bit by how a professed "carebear" went down the dark path that she says that she has. It is very interesting how she describes feeling some residual guilt for the things that she has done and continues to do and at the same time, continues to do them. All just a game, except that she recognizes that it does hurt other people and also costs them real money and their lost time/effort.
Purely responding to Bringslite's characterization, not knowing anything of the actual story, this is entirely consistent with my own personal view of how toxic these kinds of games can be. Ultimately, I think most of the folks who end up sticking around end up embracing that toxicity as a coping mechanism - as a way to take control of the situation that traumatized them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Costs them real money? huh?
Lost time and effort, sure.
But, if your playing a game that has no loss then what is the meaning of it? May as well play a single player game. Or you could just play STO or SWTOR.
Trauma lol, yeah, losing your internet space ship is traumatizing to the point you just quit playing games all together.
(Not meant as an attack Brings, just pointing out things in standard dramatic fashion LOLOL)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was intrigued a bit by how a professed "carebear" went down the dark path that she says that she has. It is very interesting how she describes feeling some residual guilt for the things that she has done and continues to do and at the same time, continues to do them. All just a game, except that she recognizes that it does hurt other people and also costs them real money and their lost time/effort.Purely responding to Bringslite's characterization, not knowing anything of the actual story, this is entirely consistent with my own personal view of how toxic these kinds of games can be. Ultimately, I think most of the folks who end up sticking around end up embracing that toxicity as a coping mechanism - as a way to take control of the situation that traumatized them.
It really surprises me that some people actualy do stick in completely voluntary environments that they find unpleasant. If I found a game experience unpleasant in any significant way, I would be gone quicker then you could blink an eye. I mean there isn't any sortage of venues for entertainment out there, including other games.
Edit: The above is why I wouldn't touch EvE with a 20ft pole. It would simply not be enjoyable for me, at all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Costs them real money? huh?
Lost time and effort, sure.
But, if your playing a game that has no loss then what is the meaning of it? May as well play a single player game. Or you could just play STO or SWTOR.
Trauma lol, yeah, losing your internet space ship is traumatizing to the point you just quit playing games all together.
(Not meant as an attack Brings, just pointing out things in standard dramatic fashion LOLOL)
Most of what She described sounded pretty standard for a game like EVE for a person playing an infiltrator and standard roving to gank miners, etc... The one thing that stuck out as the most unpleasant was something that I hope is not possible in PfO.
In one of the corps that she had slipped into, was a guy that had come into some real world cash. He had used some of it to buy plex for his corps mates and had left it in the hanger/station(?) for them. He had not put any "locks" on who could access it. She saw it one day when she logged in and took it, abandoning her original mission. Without a second thought.
Different game than we will be playing, I hope.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well... That was a mistake on his part. I dont understand why he would spend real money for game money then leave it open for anyone to take. If you want to give it to people thats cool... but give it to them... What she did, did not cost him real money, he spent it for game money. She did steal that.
I did something similar in my corp... the difference was the only people with access to it were people I knew in Real Life. Well that and I didnt buy it with RL money.
I will say, it is amusing how much a woman is fully trusted by gamers. She got away with much more being female then a male would have trying the same things.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well... That was a mistake on his part. I dont understand why he would spend real money for game money then leave it open for anyone to take. If you want to give it to people thats cool... but give it to them...
I did something similar in my corp... the difference was the only people with access to it were people I knew in Real Life. Well that and I didnt buy it with RL money.
I will say, it is amusing how much a woman is fully trusted by gamers. She got away with much more being female then a male would have trying the same things.
I agree on several points here. He made a mistake. She was overly trusted simply because she was female (not a common thing) and had a pleasant voice. And finally, what she did was possible in EVE and probably OK from CCP's viewpoint.
There is a difference demonstrated here between what some people will do when they come across a situation like that. What some people will do just because they can do it and whether it makes them feel good, bad, or somewhere in between.
There is something to think about.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The above is why I wouldn't touch EvE with a 20ft pole. It would simply not be enjoyable for me, at all.
Whereas I've avoided it because, first, I've had the impression that I'd never catch up starting new in a time-based system and second, because I would probably dig it too much, become totally engrossed and the rest of my life would be in tatters (shattered). <apologies to Richards/Jagger>
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Goblin Squad Member
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In one of the corps that she had slipped into, was a guy that had come into some real world cash. He had used some of it to buy plex for his corps mates and had left it in the hanger/station(?) for them. He had not put any "locks" on who could access it. She saw it one day when she logged in and took it, abandoning her original mission. Without a second thought.
I don't think it would hold up in court but stranger things have happened in court cases. But it would be interesting if the guy had taken her to court (civil or criminal) for stealing what he spent real money for.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think it would hold up in court but stranger things have happened in court cases. But it would be interesting if the guy had taken her to court (civil or criminal) for stealing what he spent real money for.
I am actually quite certain that people have already tried to take other people to court in EvE Online, based on in-game scams (and the loss of equity due to those scams). I am equally quite certain that every single case has fallen in the favor of the scammer. The precedent set by a ruling in favor of the scammed would be extremely interesting. Imagine, rather than just stealing the PLEX, she had attacked a hauler that happened to have the PLEX in its hold. It gets destroyed. Is she liable?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Insurance companies talk about "driver-assisted theft" when a car is stolen after the driver leaves his keys in it. It seems to me this is the same kind of thing. It's not to say the person who stole it wasn't a jerk, just that the person who was robbed failed to take even the minimum precautions.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I guess that I am just a complete wreck. I do get that the fellow made a really dumb mistake. I do understand that in that instance She was there as an infiltrator and had zero real ties with that Corp. I do understand that She was there to harm that Corp in some way, in any case. I do understand that in that game it was a legitimate action.
Still, to me, it was too much and I hope that it is not that easy in PfO to lose so much. It has a great deal to do with the game and the culture that it fosters. There will always be a@%$&+&s and opportunists though, so the best thing to do is play smart.
I guess I had better quit sniffing glue. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I didn't get a chance to listen to the whole pod cast, but around 00:24:00 when she first spoke about how she transitioned to PVP and how she reconciled killing miners... That is exactly the point!
Inexperienced players learn from getting ganked, if they are smart enough to listen to what they did wrong.
In the 8 - 10 times I have lost ships in EVE, I have always tried to contact the killer and ask what I could have done better. I usually opened up the conversation with praising them for a good kill. This always (in my experience) got them talking in a positive way and shifts them into an "instructor" mode which is a stroke to their ego.
Many time I have been invited to join their PVP roams in the future, and although I only did that twice it was always a positive experience. That was my ticket into two pirate corps. I went for victim to student to member.
Can;t wait to finish listening to the pod cast, thanks for posting it Keovar.
Perhaps, unlike many here, her views reinforces my desire to be PVP focused right from the start in PFO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Funny that you capitalize the pronoun, Bringslite. While she's cool, I'm fairly sure she's just as human as any of us. :P
Yes,, the plex-theft is problematic. I think she stole an ingame item because there's no legitimate way to trade plex back into meatspace currency. If there were, that would open up all sorts of legal complications, from giving lawsuits over ingame damages actual legal standing to international Ponzi schemes and money-laundering operations. Not the sort of thing a relatively little company wants to deal with, I'm sure.
I've been playing a browser game called Ikariam (think semi-steampunk/ancient Greece/multiplayer Civilization) since 2008, and the company, Gameforge, can't legally delete accounts which retain the MTX resource (ambrosia), though the civs owning it may have been abandoned for over 5 years now. It's also impossible for another civ to steal ambrosia or to even gift it. German law apparently considers ingame items purchased with RL money to therefore be real property, which places some limitations on their design and causes complications in other areas.
The plex-theft is also problematic in the sense that people are quick to edge into victim-blaming. If someone were dressed in a way that made them appear to have money, but got stranded in a rough area, would they be responsible for their own mugging? Was Artimus Pyle to blame for his own shooting because he entered someone's property with blood all over him, after being disoriented and injured from a plane crash? Whether there's ill intent or just an overly-suspicious assessment of a bad situation, you have some harm against a vulnerable person who has few options by the time they realize there's a problem. It doesn't seem right to say that they're to blame for not having a contingency plan for every possible complication, and the complication itself does no harm without someone taking advantage of it or just not thinking. Perhaps people want to deny that such things can happen to anyone, and contempt for the victim is easier than facing their own potential vulnerability. We are talking about a game here, but the transfer of cultural ideas and assumptions isn't a one-way street.
Anyway, I think these are interesting questions, and felt it could apply to the future of PFO, so I thought I'd share. I'm glad some others found it interesting too.
A plex is not a real world item.
A game time code is a real world item which you can sell for real money. The moment you convert it into a plex it no longer has a real world value merely an in game value.
I take 2 plex and sell them for isk and I use it to buy a freighter and you blow it up an steal everything that drops I have lost the equivalent of 2 plex.
If I take 2 plex and transport them in a shuttle cargo hold and you see me in space and blow me up I have lost 2 plex (regardless of whether the plex drop as loot or not)
If I take 2 plex and put them in a public hangar and you take them out of a public hangar then I have lost 2 plex (please note the entire point of the public hangar is that anyone you have given permission to use it can take out anything there). Then I have lost 2 plex.
Why are these 3 scenario's different. In all cases you no longer have the 2 plex nor anything to show for it.
The person with the plex did the equivalent to living in a shared house and putting his wallet on the coffee table and saying to his housemates help yourself if you want any cash. A housemate did so and then stopped living there. I doubt any police force would be keen to list that as a crime frankly.
Police: So you told them to take money if they wanted it?
victim: Yes but I didn't know she was going to stop living here
Police: But you told her to take it and she did? Doesn't sound like theft to me sir but a gift you now regret making. Good day.
There was no need for him to store his plex there in the least. He could have easily have kept them in his private hangar and just said to people pm me if you need a plex. He invited people to take what they want and they did simple as that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The plex-theft is also problematic in the sense that people are quick to edge into victim-blaming.This is relevant to not only this topic but also any discussion on the PvP on this boards.
Relevant, perhaps, but that doesn't mean that people should be able to abstain from any responsibility for how other people react to their actions. Don't get me wrong, there are instances when victim-blaming is, quite clearly, entirely negative; when it appears in rape cases for example. Having something stolen from you in a competitive environment because you did something stupid is not one of those instances.
You do something stupid, you face the consequences of having done something stupid. We are allowed to say that within the context of online video games because, by and large, the consequences you face are arbitrary and easily recoverable from. There are very, very few things that I can do to someone online that will have a long lasting, overtly negative effect on a mentally healthy persons psyche. Even those people who are not particularly mentally healthy (myself, for example. Diagnosed anxiety issues out the ass) shouldn't be particularly influenced.
If you don't want to have your virtual stuff stolen, be careful about leaving it out in the open. Appropriating victim-blaming language in an attempt to protect someone from being relatively tamely ridiculed for a relatively inconsequential mistake is a removal of agency, nothing less. Even worse, it breeds a culture that refuses to give advise on how someone else might not fall into the same circumstances, for fear of being labelled as blaming the victim. Not healthy for a competitive environment where you must assume that everyone could, at least potentially, be out to get you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Without having actually played the game, it would be difficult to say, however using the context of other games that appear to be similar to PfO, “leaving it in the open” would be whatever analogue to guild banks we have. Semi-public vaults within which the access list can be controlled, but is generally fairly open. However the same approach applies to wandering out into uncontrolled territory. If you don't want to risk your carried equipment, don't go into lands that you aren't explicitly safe in.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you don't want to have your virtual stuff stolen, be careful about leaving it out in the open.Am I correct to assume that in the context of PFO by "leaving it in the open" you mean being logged in the game?
I know Papaver, you don't like to read it, but it is a truth you will either learn to accept or you won't play the game.
When you log in, you assume risk. You and you alone are responsible to mitigate that risk. This is a competitive PVP environment, you know that coming in. It is your responsibility to secure your in game items.
When you are thrust into a PVP situation that you did not plan for, you are not a victim. You are a participant, and your effectiveness in that is based on your choices and actions. If you really want to avoid PVP, then plan accordingly.
As Pax Morbis explained: Don't engage in risky behavior if you don't want to be at risk. Try to stay where you know you will be pretty much safe, but know that you will never be completely safe.
So to answer your question directly, in the context of PFO "Leaving it in the open", is being logged in and not securing your safety or your items.
In the Pod Cast the rule of thumb that people (players) often forget "A fool and his money are soon parted".
The second most important rule: "Don't be a Fool".
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Goblin Squad Member
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I know Papaver, you don't like to read it, but it is a truth you will either learn to accept or you won't play the game.
I sencerely hope that PFO will not be the game that you want to play. So that you will go back to EvE, a game you obvioulsy enjoy more.
I still hope that PFO will be a game as described in the Kickstarter a Sandbox - Themepark Hybrid. I don't want it to be a full Sandbox and I don't want it to be a full Themepark. That I what was advertised when I put in the money and I hope that is what i'm going to get out of it. While obviously i'm not goint to do anything like saying that i want my KS money back, I will however try to sway the Crowdforging in that direction.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I know Papaver, you don't like to read it, but it is a truth you will either learn to accept or you won't play the game.I sencerely hope that PFO will not be the game that you want to play. So that you will go back to EvE, a game you obvioulsy enjoy more.
I still hope that PFO will be a game as described in the Kickstarter a Sandbox - Themepark Hybrid. I don't want it to be a full Sandbox and I don't want it to be a full Themepark. That I what was advertised when I put in the money and I hope that is what i'm going to get out of it. While obviously i'm not goint to do anything like saying that i want my KS money back, I will however try to sway the Crowdforging in that direction.
Where in the Kick Starter did it tell you that you will not be at risk? Where has Ryan or any Dev said that you will never have to PVP if you don't want to?
If you join a company, you can be feuded. If you join a settlement, you can be at war. If you join a faction, you can be attacked by an opposing faction. If you travel outside of the safer areas, you can be attacked.
These and other instances of conflict have been expressly explained, over and over again.
Your hopes for my not wanting to be in this game will not be realized. There is enough PVP opportunities to keep my interest, and I have pre purchased 2 years of play time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Where in the Kick Starter did it tell you that you will not be at risk? Where has Ryan or any Dev said that you will never have to PVP if you don't want to?
I have no desire to not be at risk at all nor never have to PvP. So please do not construct the question as If I have.
We can discuss this like civilized people or we can start putting words into each other's mouth if you prefer, I will leave you the choice.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Talking about EVE Online, did I already leave the link to the blog of Psychotic Monk around (which is Belligerent Undesirables)?
I think it's fascinating reading... in the "watching a train wreck happen" kind of way. And the guy is totally nice to chat with outside of the game, I've talked with him on G+. It's his way to enjoy himself in the game, and he's quite open about it.
Some of the things I read about in this blog are the things I'm hoping PfO won't have (being able to rep/heal people in combat without being in danger yourself is one, being able to attack corp-mates (fellow guild members) without repercussion is a second (and then having to wait for the person to dock to even be able to kick him out of your corp...)).
As said, some of what Psychotic Monk and his mates are up to is fascinating, but some of it ... borders on mis-use of the rules of the game. Though it fits very well with the sometimes toxic environment that is EVE Online.
There is risk, and there is risk. I don't mind fighting the good (or bad) cause, I don't mind being ganked (as long as it has consequences), I assume I'm not safe the moment I spawn into the world.
But there should be some places where trust can be built, things can be enjoyed, or Pathfinder risks becoming a toxic wasteland similar to EVE.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Where in the Kick Starter did it tell you that you will not be at risk? Where has Ryan or any Dev said that you will never have to PVP if you don't want to?I have no desire to not be at risk at all nor never have to PvP. So please do not construct the question as If I have.
We can discuss this like civilized people or we can start putting words into each other's mouth if you prefer, I will leave you the choice.
If you are not questioning that there will be risk, just by logging in, then there is nothing further to discuss.
I am only arguing that by logging in, you assume some risk. That risk can be mitigated through the choices you make and by the actions you take.
If you fall prey to PVP, that you did not intend to happen, that does not make you someone that has been unfairly victimized. You bore some responsibility in not being victimized. That is the central theme of the Pod Cast and what I have been writing.
I agree with her 100%, and I'm fascinated by the discussion of emergent game play in that context.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you fall prey to PVP, that you did not intend to happen, that does not make you someone that has been unfairly victimized.
There will also be cases where the PvP you experience is bad/wrong, and not what you should reasonably expect, and the fact that it's technically possible is not an excuse.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you fall prey to PVP, that you did not intend to happen, that does not make you someone that has been unfairly victimized.There will also be cases where the PvP you experience is bad/wrong, and not what you should reasonably expect, and the fact that it's technically possible is not an excuse.
Can you provide an example, that is not outright griefing (ie. corpse camping, killing noobs 5 times in a row in starter area, killing someone and then degrading their mother in chat, etc...).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Can you provide an example, that is not outright griefing...
Why must it be "not outright griefing"? My entire point was that some PvP is griefing, and just because the game mechanics allow it to occur doesn't mean it's acceptable and doesn't mean that those who log in to such a game are automatically accepting that risk.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you are not questioning that there will be risk, just by logging in, then there is nothing further to discus
I fundamentally disagree. I think that this is the point where the discussion that is worth having actually starts. Because while we propably agree on that there should be risk we also propably disagree on what the risk is.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you are not questioning that there will be risk, just by logging in, then there is nothing further to discusI fundamentally disagree. I think that this is the point where the discussion that is worth having actually starts. Because while we probably agree on that there should be risk we also probably disagree on what the risk is.
I have explained the risks as:
If you join a company, you can be feuded. If you join a settlement, you can be at war. If you join a faction, you can be attacked by an opposing faction. If you travel outside of the safer areas, you can be attacked.
These and other instances of conflict have been expressly explained, not just by me, but by the Devs and Ryan as well.
I will add the risks that are not likely in your case:
1. If you commit acts that are considered Heinous, you will increase your risk.
2. If you commit crimes and are Criminal Flagged, you increase your risk.
3. If you raid outposts or POIs, you are at more risk.
4. If you have killed someone and are on their enemy list, they can hire a Bounty Hunter, and you are at more risk.
5. If you are a settlement manager, you are at more risk (of assassination).
Risk is not an all or nothing thing, there are varying degrees of risk which is why I have repeatedly written, there are ways for you to mitigate your risk.
I really can't see how anyone can disagree with this list I have laid out.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Can you provide an example, that is not outright griefing...Why must it be "not outright griefing"? My entire point was that some PvP is griefing, and just because the game mechanics allow it to occur doesn't mean it's acceptable and doesn't mean that those who log in to such a game are automatically accepting that risk.
There is no way to respond to this because you won't give an example of what you are referring to.
What PVP that you would consider griefing, that GW may not?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Exactly similar to EVE it is a game of risk mitigation not eliminiation.
For example to mitigate you can: join a company/kingdom, hire guards, pay attention to intel channels, know where it is safe/unsafe for you to travel, dont equip or carry what you cant afford to lose, etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Increase your Rep and be LG and you reduce your risk.
Not from feuds, wars, factions, refused SADS, and assassinations you won't. Even if you respond to an Outpost or POI raid, all the raideres have to do is wait for your to hit them twice and then you and they will both be hostile to each other. None of these impact alignment or reputation.
They are all the assumed risks of logging in.
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Wait...... Where you asking for an example outside of what will be regarded by the devs as greifing because you assume that you and Nihimon would already agree that griefing is bad and should not happen in PFO?
I think Bluddwolf was trying to see if he could goad Nihimon into describing one of the acceptable forms of PvP as unacceptable, thereby giving himself a victory.