Pathfinder Secrets of Magic

Announced for July! Product image and description are not final and may be subject to change.

Announced for July! Product image and description are not final and may be subject to change.

Awesome! I cannot wait for this! Magus was always my #1 favorite choice for a class to play and Summoner was my secondary choice, tied only with Alchemist. I will finally be able to play what I have really wanted to the most since the first announcement of 2nd edition.

New Summoner iconic is not Balthazar! Noooo! First Alhazra, now Balthazar! Funky Hats Club loses another!

C'mon, Imrijka, only you can save us!

Huh, pink with ice blue. And Seltiyel seems to have changed his color scheme to be less dark blue

But yeah, if somebody can actually be like "Oh yeah, that tentacle monster there isn't actually a generic tentacle monster, its a/an [x]" then I'll be really surprised somebody can tell what it is :D

Wait and see what we get for the revised 2 new classes, should be interesting though. More magic items and spells are the bigger deal for me.
I wonder when we will get the new original classes talked about (more like hinted at in various twitch streams when asked point blank)

Maybe the next book after this perhaps??

Tom

But yeah, if somebody can actually be like "Oh yeah, that tentacle monster there isn't actually a generic tentacle monster, its a/an [x]" then I'll be really surprised somebody can tell what it is :D

Between the spikey tentacle and the mouth, my though is Chaos Beast. Shoggoth is also a possibility.

This is probably the most excited ive been for any book since the core rulebook.

I wish I had this already.

Looks like a great release. Interesting to see that this is being released in 3 different print formats right out of the gate...clearly the pocket editions are proving to be a solid channel for Paizo.

I really, really can't wait to find out what that Book of Unlimited Magic is all about. The teased bits from there seem wildly different to normal Pathfinder operations!

I really, really can't wait to find out what that Book of Unlimited Magic is all about. The teased bits from there seem wildly different to normal Pathfinder operations!

They talked about it a bit at GenCon, at least the philosophy behind it, and I can’t wait to see what’s in it. Just the names sounds very interesting. :3

Yeah I wonder if this is the thing they were referring to when they said "Yes" to having something to 'address' vancian magic. I'm super duper down, my players and I are the type to eat this kinda stuff up, and it sounds like something even 1e didn't really do. Gonna temper expectations because they haven't explained yet, but it almost sounds like alternative magic systems you can archetype or feat into, and that can be splashed onto monsters.

Looking forward to it! Great cover

A special section within the volume—the Book of Unlimited Magic—presents new methods of spellcasting, with elementalism, geomancy, shadow magic, rune magic, and even pervasive magic to give every place and creature in your game a magical spin!

Very curious about this. Though since there was no playtest for new magic systems, I'm expecting this to be very light.

Hopefully the alternate magic stuff will either be added to in the future or sufficiently future proofed to add to them yourself. SO that those that use them can continue to do so, unlike the words of power for PF1 that was never mentioned again.

"Ok, who let the Unspeakable Door open?"

Pretty awesome cover! :D

I'm hoping to see some 5th edition style spell prep in the alternative rules. The current rules for me are the one thing holding back the level of versatility and flexibility that 2e pathfinder spell casting can do.

More "Prepare or know X number of spells a day and cast at any spell slot applicable"

Less "Prepare each spell slot with a specific spells or only know select spell levels of a spell and let a DM curve ball knock you off guard"

"Ok, who let the Unspeakable Door open?"

Pretty awesome cover! :D

No that's the Doorway of 2020, and all the horrors we have faced! If they don't close that door we will only see further Horrors unleashed in 2021!

Note that they never said there was alternative rules.
IMHO, they sound much more like "in-game" magic systems. Like, not "new rules" but using what we have to have more variety.
I expect personally for each kind of magic to have "Explanation of the themes and how it works in world", "Creature templates to add that kind of magic on any creatures, be them monsters or NPCs", and MAYBE "new player archetypes to add these themes to player characters".
Like, Shadow magic would explain how this use illusion to create quasi real things, gives a "Shadow Magic template" that you could give to creatures, with a couple of powers you can choose to give them power over shadow, with explanation to alter some of their normal abilities to give them a "shadow magic" flavor, and extra feats for the APG's Shadowdancer.

Note that they never said there was alternative rules.

IMHO, they sound much more like "in-game" magic systems. Like, not "new rules" but using what we have to have more variety.
I expect personally for each kind of magic to have "Explanation of the themes and how it works in world", "Creature templates to add that kind of magic on any creatures, be them monsters or NPCs", and MAYBE "new player archetypes to add these themes to player characters".
Like, Shadow magic would explain how this use illusion to create quasi real things, gives a "Shadow Magic template" that you could give to creatures, with a couple of powers you can choose to give them power over shadow, with explanation to alter some of their normal abilities to give them a "shadow magic" flavor, and extra feats for the APG's Shadowdancer.

Tts hard to say, the question they cryptically said "Yes" to at Gen Con Online was: "Will there be anything in the book to address vancian casting?"

Its pretty clear the questioner meant something along the lines of "will this have alternatives for people who don't like vancian spell casting?" and I'm fairly certain the designers recognized that. I'm sure they're also getting a lot of feedback from former 5e players who are frustrated with a lack of neo-vancian casting like they're used to.

So I would be pretty surprised if there wasn't actually any 'alternative spell casting' in this book. I was kind of guessing they might do a class archetype for the Wizard that turns them into an Arcanist, personally.

But who knows, they could do a lot of things.

Elfteiroh wrote:

Note that they never said there was alternative rules.

IMHO, they sound much more like "in-game" magic systems. Like, not "new rules" but using what we have to have more variety.
I expect personally for each kind of magic to have "Explanation of the themes and how it works in world", "Creature templates to add that kind of magic on any creatures, be them monsters or NPCs", and MAYBE "new player archetypes to add these themes to player characters".
Like, Shadow magic would explain how this use illusion to create quasi real things, gives a "Shadow Magic template" that you could give to creatures, with a couple of powers you can choose to give them power over shadow, with explanation to alter some of their normal abilities to give them a "shadow magic" flavor, and extra feats for the APG's Shadowdancer.

Tts hard to say, the question they cryptically said "Yes" to at Gen Con Online was: "Will there be anything in the book to address vancian casting?"

Its pretty clear the questioner meant something along the lines of "will this have alternatives for people who don't like vancian spell casting?" and I'm fairly certain the designers recognized that. I'm sure they're also getting a lot of feedback from former 5e players who are frustrated with a lack of neo-vancian casting like they're used to.

So I would be pretty surprised if there wasn't actually any 'alternative spell casting' in this book. I was kind of guessing they might do a class archetype for the Wizard that turns them into an Arcanist, personally.

But who knows, they could do a lot of things.

It's a shame that there's such a backlash against the semi-Vancian casting styles in Pathfinder. Honestly both myself as GM and the players at my tables who have rolled up casters have all come to enjoy it much more than the generic stuff in 5e.

I've never really liked the "spell slots" approach. It seems too contrived*. The most elegant system, to me, is something like Harnmaster's: every spell is a skill, your mastery of that skill (a number between roughly 0 and something a bit over 100) defines how good you are at casting the spell; casting a spell makes you tired; when you get too tired, your spells start to misfire; misfire is bad.

* this is especially true with the two classes in this book, where you only have slots in your two highest spell levels, any you used to have in lower levels disappear when you gain levels. That's almost as bad as "once you cast a spell you forget how to cast it until you get a good night's sleep", which is just plain silly IMO.

I've never really liked the "spell slots" approach. It seems too contrived*. The most elegant system, to me, is something like Harnmaster's: every spell is a skill, your mastery of that skill (a number between roughly 0 and something a bit over 100) defines how good you are at casting the spell; casting a spell makes you tired; when you get too tired, your spells start to misfire; misfire is bad.

* this is especially true with the two classes in this book, where you only have slots in your two highest spell levels, any you used to have in lower levels disappear when you gain levels. That's almost as bad as "once you cast a spell you forget how to cast it until you get a good night's sleep", which is just plain silly IMO.

Hm, sure. I haven't found spell slots, spells known, or any of that too hard to explain in ways my players find logical and not gamey. But like a lot of fantasy and fantasy gaming, the deeper you dig, the sillier it all looks.

Huh, pink with ice blue. And Seltiyel seems to have changed his color scheme to be less dark blue

But yeah, if somebody can actually be like "Oh yeah, that tentacle monster there isn't actually a generic tentacle monster, its a/an [x]" then I'll be really surprised somebody can tell what it is :D

Is there more than one creature there beside the tentacle thing? The horned thing reminds me of a nightgaunt. But it seems like something from a different plane. Or a nightmare fuel Otyugh :P

The-Magic-Sword wrote:

Elfteiroh wrote:

Note that they never said there was alternative rules.

IMHO, they sound much more like "in-game" magic systems. Like, not "new rules" but using what we have to have more variety.
I expect personally for each kind of magic to have "Explanation of the themes and how it works in world", "Creature templates to add that kind of magic on any creatures, be them monsters or NPCs", and MAYBE "new player archetypes to add these themes to player characters".
Like, Shadow magic would explain how this use illusion to create quasi real things, gives a "Shadow Magic template" that you could give to creatures, with a couple of powers you can choose to give them power over shadow, with explanation to alter some of their normal abilities to give them a "shadow magic" flavor, and extra feats for the APG's Shadowdancer.

Tts hard to say, the question they cryptically said "Yes" to at Gen Con Online was: "Will there be anything in the book to address vancian casting?"

Its pretty clear the questioner meant something along the lines of "will this have alternatives for people who don't like vancian spell casting?" and I'm fairly certain the designers recognized that. I'm sure they're also getting a lot of feedback from former 5e players who are frustrated with a lack of neo-vancian casting like they're used to.

So I would be pretty surprised if there wasn't actually any 'alternative spell casting' in this book. I was kind of guessing they might do a class archetype for the Wizard that turns them into an Arcanist, personally.

But who knows, they could do a lot of things.

It's a shame that there's such a backlash against the semi-Vancian casting styles in Pathfinder. Honestly both myself as GM and the players at my tables who have rolled up casters have all come to enjoy it much more than the generic stuff in 5e.

Me too, my players were resistant at first, i held my ground on not adjusting it and eventually they got over it and like it too. Overall I think its a good system that works just fine, but since its already present and very well supported, I wouldn't mind seeing some alternatives in place as well-- which is what I'm hoping they're going to have in this book.

Please , a variant rule for magic.No more vancian magic.

I hope we will see some class archetypes for spellcasting classes. No idea how it would work though. I was thinking maybe like a Blighter for Druid, but at the same time it can just be an additional Druid order.

Are there any news on the Dinosaur Form Spell?

Are there any news on the Dinosaur Fort Spell?

Hotly anticipated.

Open the door, get on the floor
Everybody walk the dinosaur

Ooh, missed the geometry and run magic systems - be cool if they were separate from the norm, and can be used alongside vancian. My gf would love it! :D

A special section within the volume—the Book of Unlimited Magic—presents new methods of spellcasting, with elementalism, geomancy, shadow magic, rune magic, and even pervasive magic to give every place and creature in your game a magical spin!

Do we have any idea on what this could entail? Any hints dropped by Paizo? Very exciting! What part of which Gencon video do I need to watch?

Quote:

A special section within the volume—the Book of Unlimited Magic—presents new methods of spellcasting, with elementalism, geomancy, shadow magic, rune magic, and even pervasive magic to give every place and creature in your game a magical spin!

Do we have any idea on what this could entail? Any hints dropped by Paizo? Very exciting! What part of which Gencon video do I need to watch?

The gencon stream had even less details than that product description above. It was basically "hey, next year we will have this book about magic with 2 new classes, that's all folks!".

The gencon stream had even less details than that product description above. It was basically "hey, next year we will have this book about magic with 2 new classes, that's all folks!".

That's a shame. I'll be counting down the months.

GGSigmar wrote:

The gencon stream had even less details than that product description above. It was basically "hey, next year we will have this book about magic with 2 new classes, that's all folks!".

That's a shame. I'll be counting down the months.

I'm sure the next big release of info will start in May with PaizoCon, which I assume will be online, but that's not official. We've 2 new APs, Bestiary 3, and Lost Omens Ancestry Guide to promote for before SoM.

Grivenger wrote:

GGSigmar wrote:

The gencon stream had even less details than that product description above. It was basically "hey, next year we will have this book about magic with 2 new classes, that's all folks!".

That's a shame. I'll be counting down the months.

I'm sure the next big release of info will start in May with PaizoCon, which I assume will be online, but that's not official. We've 2 new APs, Bestiary 3, and Lost Omens Ancestry Guide to promote for before SoM.

Can't wait to hear about the Bestiary and Ancestry Guide!!!! We're so close.

Aaron Shanks wrote:

Grivenger wrote:

GGSigmar wrote:

The gencon stream had even less details than that product description above. It was basically "hey, next year we will have this book about magic with 2 new classes, that's all folks!".

That's a shame. I'll be counting down the months.

I'm sure the next big release of info will start in May with PaizoCon, which I assume will be online, but that's not official. We've 2 new APs, Bestiary 3, and Lost Omens Ancestry Guide to promote for before SoM.

Can't wait to hear about the Bestiary and Ancestry Guide!!!! We're so close.

January is definitely gonna be brimming with exciting news and teasers! I am for a bunch of reasons really excited for 2021, but some of the Pathfinder releases keep pushing for a ridiculously high slot in my brain. I'm glad the wife enjoys a nerd or I'd feel like an idiot, haha.

I would not be unhappy if this was the final cover of the book.

Maybe they will have the equivalent of the card caster and the quarterstaff options for the magus.

Now that we know there will be an automaton ancestry in Guns and Gears, what ancestries do y'all think might potentially be in this book? are there any pathfinder 1e races that were particularly connected to magic?

EDIT: quick ctrl-F on AoN's 1e races page for "Magic" yielded the following:

Drow: seems more likely in a darklands book
Fetchling: coming in the LO ancestry guide
Gathlain: seems more likely in a wilderness or fey book
Nagaji: possible, although the connection is slim
Svirfneblin: again, more likely in a darklands book
Undine: coming in LOAG
Wyvaran: this one seems the most likely of these options, but still tentative

Now that we know there will be an automaton ancestry in Guns and Gears, what ancestries do y'all think might potentially be in this book? are there any pathfinder 1e races that were particularly connected to magic?

I think it would have been listed, were there something, there's confirmed to be quite a few spells and even magic items in this book.

KaiBlob1 wrote:

Now that we know there will be an automaton ancestry in Guns and Gears, what ancestries do y'all think might potentially be in this book? are there any pathfinder 1e races that were particularly connected to magic?

I think it would have been listed, were there something, there's confirmed to be quite a few spells and even magic items in this book.

Yeah, Paizo is aware enough that new ancestries are a top advertising point, so if there was gonna be a new ancestry in SoM, we would've known when the playtest dropped.

I think, since they wanted to boost spells and magic items, and that Lost Omens Ancestry Guide and Lost Omens: Mwangi Expanse was coming out, it was fine to just not put out any ancestries.

Since this is coming out in July, does that mean it is getting ready to go to the printers now? If so, I am really curious to know how the issues in the Secrets of Magic Playtest Aftermath article on the Paizo Blog turned out in the final draft.

I mean, will Striking Spell be available to the magus less often in order to get a bigger bang or is it more of an at-will ability? How was getting more spell slots addressed? What were magic syntheses renamed to, how many are there now, what are their names, and what was added to them to make them meatier, more significant choices? How were Battle Spells addressed in the end?

What new types of eidolons were added to the summoner and what traditions do they represent? How was their customization beefed up? How much have incarnate spells changed, if at all? Are incarnate spells exclusive to the summoner class?

Since this is coming out in July, does that mean it is getting ready to go to the printers now?

Honestly I imagine they sent the draft off about a month ago.

I go into more detail regarding my logic Here. Based on that, I'm a little surprised GG is coming out in October, to be honest.

That is even more of a reason to hope that my questions might get answered in some fashion before we get to summer, even if only in a vague manner.

I wouldn't expect anything before PaizoCon, really. But maybe.

I'd like to know as well, as I recall, some information became available at Paizocon for the APG classes, so I agree with Sporked we'll probably find out around then.

The problem is that PaizoCon is roughly 5 months away, if I recall correctly; and that is only about 2 months before Secrets of Magic comes out. We usually learn a few more things about an upcoming book before that point. I hope they will tell us some details before then. I'm not looking for every detail. Well... actually, I am. :) But, I know they have to hold some stuff back. However, I also know that marketing-wise, it is always a good strategy to whet a potential audience's appetite for a book in a slow burn before release so that the audience does not forget the book is coming.

Honestly, at this point, I feel like I know more about Guns & Gears than I do about Secrets of Magic and G&G comes out 2 months after SoM. Maybe it is because G&G's playtest has more "fiddly bits" to play with (for the firearms) and more discussion about firearms in Golarion on the boards here. I'm not certain, but I do know G&G's product description and the talk on the boards has me feeling more confident in what is coming in that book than in how much I think I know about what to expect in SoM. I guess there is a reason it is called "SECRETS of Magic". :)

I guess I am also just frustrated because I am more excited for what I see in the playtest version of the new Inventor class than I ever was for the what I saw in the playtest versions of Magus and Summoner classes. It is disheartening to me because those were two of my all-time favorite classes in 1st edition and I am concerned with what happened in the SoM playtest with those classes.

Eh, first world problems... I guess I should just focus on the fact that I just survived getting over COVID and be happy with that. I've just been cooped up in the house too long, I guess. How does that song go...

With the lights out, it's less dangerous.
Here we are now, entertain us!
I feel stupid and contagious.
Here we are now, entertain us!

Well, if nothing else, Aaron now has your feedback.

I actually think there's something to your comment that it feels like we know more about what is in G&G than SoM. Probably because what we do know about SoM we don't really have a firm frame of reference. Spells, sure. Magic, yes. The two classes, definitely. But beyond that...

What IS Geomancy? Will Rune magic look like focus spells? Will pervasive magic be a player-side thing or more of a GM's tool? Class feats are guaranteed, but what kind of skill feats might be lurking? Archetypes? Rituals? Its a lot of questions!

Whereas with G&G, I have a pretty good idea on what an ancestry looks like. I might not have all the rules for a steam engine, but I can surmise what kind of games that might include. And we have example firearms to pick apart, which gives us an idea of what to expect for that entire section. Plus bombs and other consumables.

I guess my point is that whichever book has actually revealed more information, the hints we have on G&G are seemingly more rooted in rules elements we already know or were just revealed, while Shadow Magic could be any number of things.

Well, if nothing else, Aaron now has your feedback.

I actually think there's something to your comment that it feels like we know more about what is in G&G than SoM. Probably because what we do know about SoM we don't really have a firm frame of reference. Spells, sure. Magic, yes. The two classes, definitely. But beyond that...

What IS Geomancy? Will Rune magic look like focus spells? Will pervasive magic be a player-side thing or more of a GM's tool? Class feats are guaranteed, but what kind of skill feats might be lurking? Archetypes? Rituals? Its a lot of questions!

Whereas with G&G, I have a pretty good idea on what an ancestry looks like. I might not have all the rules for a steam engine, but I can surmise what kind of games that might include. And we have example firearms to pick apart, which gives us an idea of what to expect for that entire section. Plus bombs and other consumables.

I guess my point is that whichever book has actually revealed more information, the hints we have on G&G are seemingly more rooted in rules elements we already know or were just revealed, while Shadow Magic could be any number of things.

It's in the name folks. Secrets of Magic.