Pathfinder Adventure Path #138: Rise of New Thassilon (Return of the Runelords 6 of 6)

The Gold Sovereign wrote:

Thanks for the replies, both of you. It seems that this will be an amazing volume. I can't wait to read it!

I'm also hoping to see more of the Redeemer Queen in PF2E, as it would be really anticlimactic if she returned as a Demon Lord in future adventures. I would love to see her as one of the Inner Sea Gods.

I have a feeling she might be one of the New 20.

If I remember correctly, it has been confirmed that the core gods aren't changing any time soon.

Can anyone tell me about the Ashen Forgemaster? Undead Salamanders sound interesting.

Zaister wrote:

The Gold Sovereign wrote:

Thanks for the replies, both of you. It seems that this will be an amazing volume. I can't wait to read it!

I'm also hoping to see more of the Redeemer Queen in PF2E, as it would be really anticlimactic if she returned as a Demon Lord in future adventures. I would love to see her as one of the Inner Sea Gods.

I have a feeling she might be one of the New 20.

If I remember correctly, it has been confirmed that the core gods aren't changing any time soon.

If the clerics are going to be so majorly affected by the deities they serve in 2E, there might be the need for another "Inner Sea Gods" book sooner, and I hope we get the minor gods covered faster into the new edition. I'm talking about Kurgess, Milani, Zyphus and the likes, among which I hope to see Nocticula, the Redeemer Queen.

It would be so cool if she stoped to grant spells to her evil followers, in an attempt to redeem them as well, and that would shake one of the strongest demonic worshiping cults in Golarion.

I loved how Sorshen redemption mirrored that of Our Lady in Shadow, and I hope to see more of them in future products.

Course, a big thing about redemption is not 'Reflecting on your actions and forgiving yourself'. You gotta do the twelve steps and repay those you have harmed through your actions. With Noctulia..that is gunna be a heck of a lot. Plus not everyone is going to be so generous. To quote John Constintine, 'God may have forgiven you but I haven't."

Yeah, I don't think you can apply whatever "12 steps" you think there are to a deity. I think the other good gods will be just happy that there is one new good deity and one less demon lord.

Well that is the big advantage paizo deities is that they don't have the 'Must have faith' that many other settings have. I recall 'Monstrous Regiment' from Discworld that had one deity(Nuggan) who was such an utter d-bag that he effectively strangled himself out of existence. Plus any world that has an Atonement spell on tap makes redemption easy.

Brother Larry: Brother Frank, I ate a baby after getting dominated, would you please?

Brother FranK: Of course. *Zot* There you go!

Atonement isn't easy redemption though because besides one seeking it needing to be genuine, deity needs to accept it <_<

Atonement is spell where you basically petition a god for redemption, but spell's text points out god can reject it :P

Anyhoo, I thought I already pointed out that Redeemer Queen explicitly doesn't grant spells for CE followers?

Anyhoohoo, isn't 12 steps of redemption about evil to good alignment? Pretty sure evil to neutral requires just growing a conscience :p

Her now abandoned evil cultists might hate the goddess and her new favored, they might see her redemption as a betrayal and seek vengeance by murdering her followers. Maybe they might seek a new patron in Shamira or Nocticula's brother, two demon lords I see fighting to inherit her realm, domains and faith.

Yep, I imagine the new followers of the Redeemer Queen will be a prime target for pissed off demons who feel betrayed.

I wonder if Arueshalae will become a follower of the new Nocticula? ^^

Why would she? Redeemed version is CG plus she worships Desna meanwhile redeemed Nocticula is CN

IIRC, there is a tiefling artist in Magnimar (the one responsible for the "entwined succubi" statues in several APs) who has worshipped the heretical version of Nocticula for a long time. She'll be delighted to hear that Nocticula is now officially CN.

Instead of "Continuing the Campaign", there is "Beyond the Campaign" which works as epilogue for New Thassilon and two runelords who are assumed to survive plus info about new faction of rune magic researching wizards which is created.(also Nocticula's domains as redeemer queen, apparently she doesn't allow CE worshippers anymore)

Aside from Sorshen, which other runelord is assumed to have survived the end of the AP?

Also, do the Cyphermages survive as an organisation? (Assuming that Riddleport survives too.)

Why would she? Redeemed version is CG plus she worships Desna meanwhile redeemed Nocticula is CN

Well, Nocticula is her former boss and she accepts CG followers but not CE followers as the Redeemer Queen. Also, Arueshalae is a redeemed succubus, the theme would fit like a glove. I know she follows Desna, but she'd make a great ambassador to the good faiths for Nocticula as well. Just saying, it would fit well and as a CG goddess of liberty, I don't think Desna would mind sharing. ^^

IIRC, there is a tiefling artist in Magnimar (the one responsible for the "entwined succubi" statues in several APs) who has worshipped the heretical version of Nocticula for a long time. She'll be delighted to hear that Nocticula is now officially CN.

Yeah, Ayavah has a part to play in Return of the Runelords. :)

Aside from Sorshen, which other runelord is assumed to have survived the end of the AP?

** spoiler omitted **

IIRC, there is a tiefling artist in Magnimar (the one responsible for the "entwined succubi" statues in several APs) who has worshipped the heretical version of Nocticula for a long time. She'll be delighted to hear that Nocticula is now officially CN.

Yes, her name is Avayah, and this was long planned: You may have noticed that each part 6 book of any adventure path has a "motto" hidden in its small print on the credits page, often a literary quote fitting with the AP. For Wrath of the Righteous (back in 2014!), which featured Nocticula prominently, the quote in part 6 was "Avayah was right all along!"

The quote for Return of the Runelords, by the way, is:

The Gold Sovereign wrote:

Thanks for the replies, both of you. It seems that this will be an amazing volume. I can't wait to read it!

I'm also hoping to see more of the Redeemer Queen in PF2E, as it would be really anticlimactic if she returned as a Demon Lord in future adventures. I would love to see her as one of the Inner Sea Gods.

I have a feeling she might be one of the New 20.

That would mean one of the old 20 has to go...

Zaister wrote:

The Gold Sovereign wrote:

Thanks for the replies, both of you. It seems that this will be an amazing volume. I can't wait to read it!

I'm also hoping to see more of the Redeemer Queen in PF2E, as it would be really anticlimactic if she returned as a Demon Lord in future adventures. I would love to see her as one of the Inner Sea Gods.

I have a feeling she might be one of the New 20.

That would mean one of the old 20 has to go...

Someone already pointed it out, but none of 20 core gods are changing :p

Zaister wrote:

The Gold Sovereign wrote:

Thanks for the replies, both of you. It seems that this will be an amazing volume. I can't wait to read it!

I'm also hoping to see more of the Redeemer Queen in PF2E, as it would be really anticlimactic if she returned as a Demon Lord in future adventures. I would love to see her as one of the Inner Sea Gods.

I have a feeling she might be one of the New 20.

That would mean one of the old 20 has to go...

Perhaps bump out Calistria since paizo seems to be changing things so she is no longer the goddess of Lust and Trickery. The old versions (When they still used words like brothel) played up the Sacred Prostitute thing which is going out of style (Like Eristal being a 'stay in the kitchen!' type) So having her go off and focus on the outer space elves might work and leave space for Noctululululululu Help I can't stop spelling!

Does the AP explain why Nocticula decided to "redeem" herself? Like, was there significant event or experience that brought out this change or did she just decide to start being less of a horrible person?

Does the AP explain why Nocticula decided to "redeem" herself? Like, was there significant event or experience that brought out this change or did she just decide to start being less of a horrible person?

Uhhhhhhhhhh, I'm trying to avoid stating it, so let's just say you'll find out if you have Redeemer Queen worshipper in the party

Does the AP explain why Nocticula decided to "redeem" herself? Like, was there significant event or experience that brought out this change or did she just decide to start being less of a horrible person?

I think there must have been a significant event or experience during someone's adolescence that has lead to three (edit: or more!) different "hawt evil chick becomes nice girl" plots being put in Pathfinder APs.

Definite examples:
Arushaelee
Nocticula
Sorshen

Potential:
A couple of redemption options in Curse of the Crimson Throne
That CN witch in the Technic League who wants to make nice with players

Related:
The Casandalee reprogrammable woman fantasy - make the hot robot god have whatever personality you want!

I haven't read every AP, I'm sure there are more. And I can guess which ones likely include them.

Who’s the third one?

Arueshalae, I suppose. Also, isn't there a redeemable shadow librarian in this AP?

Delightful wrote:

Does the AP explain why Nocticula decided to "redeem" herself? Like, was there significant event or experience that brought out this change or did she just decide to start being less of a horrible person?

I think there must have been a significant event or experience during someone's adolescence that has lead to three (edit: or more!) different "hawt evil chick becomes nice girl" plots being put in Pathfinder APs.

Definite examples:
Arushaelee
Nocticula
Sorshen

Potential:
A couple of redemption options in Curse of the Crimson Throne
That CN witch in the Technic League who wants to make nice with players

Related:
The Casandalee reprogrammable woman fantasy - make the hot robot god have whatever personality you want!

I haven't read every AP, I'm sure there are more. And I can guess which ones likely include them.

Well, isn't that nice armchair psychology.

Uh, ignoring the other creepiness in that post, Nocticula and Sorshen don't become nice, they became Chaotic Neutral <_<

Like, main motivation for both of them becoming non-evil seems to be that they got tired of being evil or rather idea of having to stay evil just because they have always been like that. For Sorshen in particular, its also motivated by Karzoug's, Krune's and Zutha's failure to return and view that "Evil Wizard Overlord" shtick is outdated in current world.

Only thing I can agree on in that post is that Paizo does have officially become uncomfortable with "Sexy evil lusty woman" trope since they stated that directly iirc, but honestly, pretty much all groups I've seen react to the two characters had "eyeroll" reaction :P Thing is, most of players I know find it gross when writers introduce stuff that sounds like someone's fetish.

Sorshen's motivation to change is practical, if not exactly a riveting narrative of self-analysis and repentance for several lifetimes of evil. Not that I'm knocking it. It makes sense, especially since she's only going from Chaotic Evil to Chaotic Neutral. I mean, if Gorum and Calistria prove anything its that Chaotic Neutral isn't that high of a bar to reach. :P

I still sort of wish there was more of an inciting incident for Nocticula's change other than "Being evil has gotten boring after countless eons." Arueshalae redemption was great because it had a sizable backstory and her continuing to make an active effort to undo some of the horrible things she's done. But just like in Sorshen's case, Nocticula's only going from Chaotic Evil to Chaotic Neutral, so her not needing that great or weighty of a push might make sense. Still, it would have been nice to have a story of Sarenrae or Shelyn reaching out to her and getting her to realize the futility of evil, or maybe her just looking at brother and realizing how much of a freak he is and how she doesn't want any part of that depravity anymore.

Of course, I still haven't read the this last adventure yet, so who knows what extra bits of lore gets dropped in them! He's to hoping there's a lot.

Also, thanks CorvusMask for dropping all this info for us. I really appreciate it.

Uh, ignoring the other creepiness in that post, Nocticula and Sorshen don't become nice, they became Chaotic Neutral <_<

Like, main motivation for both of them becoming non-evil seems to be that they got tired of being evil or rather idea of having to stay evil just because they have always been like that. For Sorshen in particular, its also motivated by Karzoug's, Krune's and Zutha's failure to return and view that "Evil Wizard Overlord" shtick is outdated in current world.

Only thing I can agree on in that post is that Paizo does have officially become uncomfortable with "Sexy evil lusty woman" trope since they stated that directly iirc, but honestly, pretty much all groups I've seen react to the two characters had "eyeroll" reaction :P Thing is, most of players I know find it gross when writers introduce stuff that sounds like someone's fetish.

Hm, I find that a bit hypocritical, unless they also roll their eyes at the mention of the numerous evil lusty male demons and devils. Sorry, but sexually active people can also be evil, it's not just limited to the prudes.

CorvusMask wrote:

Uh, ignoring the other creepiness in that post, Nocticula and Sorshen don't become nice, they became Chaotic Neutral <_<

Like, main motivation for both of them becoming non-evil seems to be that they got tired of being evil or rather idea of having to stay evil just because they have always been like that. For Sorshen in particular, its also motivated by Karzoug's, Krune's and Zutha's failure to return and view that "Evil Wizard Overlord" shtick is outdated in current world.

Only thing I can agree on in that post is that Paizo does have officially become uncomfortable with "Sexy evil lusty woman" trope since they stated that directly iirc, but honestly, pretty much all groups I've seen react to the two characters had "eyeroll" reaction :P Thing is, most of players I know find it gross when writers introduce stuff that sounds like someone's fetish.

Hm, I find that a bit hypocritical, unless they also roll their eyes at the mention of the numerous evil lusty male demons and devils. Sorry, but sexually active people can also be evil, it's not just limited to the prudes.

I'd like to point out that Socothbenoth isn't exactly popular villain in circles I've seen either :P However, regardless I do admit there is double standard going on since all three, Socothbenoth, Sorshen and Nocticula have done really horrible things, but on Paizo message board 2 out of 3 seem to be pretty popular.

Either way, in general though male sexually villains tend to be portrayed as forceful and female ones as seductive. There are exceptions (like Mammy Graul and Iron Cages of Lust), but in general in circles I've been to I haven't seen positive reaction to any sort of sexual villain :P If they are forceful, then people feel uncomfortable, if they feel sexy, then everyone feels uncomfortable in different the "is writer forcing their fetish on us" way.

Too long to read version: Please don't assume how other people react, its kinda rude :P

(I do admit its bit hypocritical in that I don't think they are getting rid of succubi in general, succubi is probably the most common demon type in all the APs overall)

Anyhoo, on Nocticula, there IS inciting incident... But its really spoilery and uh, you need Redeemer Queen worshiper for it. So I don't know if I should really spoil it or not. I can't say whether you would find it disappointing or cool since that depends on your tastes.

I was not targeting your comment in specific, but rather a general movement which seems hellbent on purifying roleplaying of sexual elements.

I was not targeting your comment in specific, but rather a general movement which seems hellbent on purifying roleplaying of sexual elements.

Ah, oki, no problemo then, I have no problem if ye aren't specifically targeting my players xD

Anyhoo, on Nocticula, there IS inciting incident...

That's good to hear. Without a little more background, the redemption arc just seems kind of flat.

CorvusMask wrote:

Uh, ignoring the other creepiness in that post, Nocticula and Sorshen don't become nice, they became Chaotic Neutral <_<

Like, main motivation for both of them becoming non-evil seems to be that they got tired of being evil or rather idea of having to stay evil just because they have always been like that. For Sorshen in particular, its also motivated by Karzoug's, Krune's and Zutha's failure to return and view that "Evil Wizard Overlord" shtick is outdated in current world.

Only thing I can agree on in that post is that Paizo does have officially become uncomfortable with "Sexy evil lusty woman" trope since they stated that directly iirc, but honestly, pretty much all groups I've seen react to the two characters had "eyeroll" reaction :P Thing is, most of players I know find it gross when writers introduce stuff that sounds like someone's fetish.

Hm, I find that a bit hypocritical, unless they also roll their eyes at the mention of the numerous evil lusty male demons and devils. Sorry, but sexually active people can also be evil, it's not just limited to the prudes.

The subtext of this pattern I discussed above is that sexy women sleeping around are evil, but the universe will forgive them if they quit their maneating ways for cold blooded reasons.

Strangely, ugly men/gods doing horrible things never seem to be forgiven or want to change. There's no Shax or mortal serial killer analogue who decides to limit his predations to those who really have it coming and move up to CN, all past torture, mutilations, and murders forgiven. Folca isn't going to move up to N and become the god of scary but character forming clowns or NG and teach children how to protect themselves from and civilize and humanize bullies.

Only hot sexy babes repent and reform in Paizo's products, and only in a subset that have one key ingredient in common. I have some suspicions for why that is.

In isolation this isn't a novel argument. Plenty of people observed when Wrath of the Righteous came out that it was awfully convenient that Arueshalae was a succubus rather than, say an omox or hezrou. Now that would be some NPC motivation backstory with PC role playing required!

I think that's a fair criticism, xenocrat. Paizo isn't immune to using tired tropes like that. The whole redeeming the sexy baddie is a staple of the fantasy genre and we see it everywhere nowadays. I mean, half of Kylo Ren's appeal in the Star Wars fandom is this strange desire by fans for Rey to redeem him since he looks like Adam Driver, ignoring the fact he's an insane manchild. :P

That aside, I am more or less confident that Paizo will likely start turning away from this trope after awhile. Most people are unaware of the cliche and Paizo has used it enough that I'm sure even they're getting tired of it. Redemption stories are great! They can even work for horrific demon lords and runelords who probably violated and sexually exploited thousands upon thousands of people... I think? But when they come with the trappings of less than stellar genre conventions "Only beautiful people deserve the chance at redemption" they get stale and predictable rather quickly.

But Paizo has to know all that, so I'm sure we'll see less of it over time. Hell, maybe we already have there have been a bunch of "ugly" male baddies that have gotten their chance to be better?

That aside, I am more or less confident that Paizo will likely start turning away from this trope after awhile.

I'm sure we'll see it in no more than half of future APs, and never in consecutive ones.

On the whole redemption thing, don't forget that one of the potential after-campaign subplots for Wrath of the Righteous was attempting to redeem a Runelord lich.

Yep, Alderpash. So, countered that argument right there. Also, various people who are not hot ladies get their chance at redemption in WotR and actually quite a few AP's after that one as well (including more than one other Runelord). Paizo has been pretty great in including at least a few lines for specific opponents how they can be redeemed (mostly by a lot of patience and drive by the players).

So, erm, yeah. Wrong on all accounts, Xenocrat.

Yes, one optional side character, willing to consider redemption when otherwise faced with eternal imprisonment and futility, clearly is an effective rebuttal to a pervasive theme features many characters main and otherwise throughout several different works.

And you are ignoring the line about the other Runelords (plural) you can redeem in this AP alone.

I could go through about four AP's I've recently run and am preparing to run where there are numerous opponents who are willing to redeem themselves if the players do it correctly. But this is really too much work to get into the nitty gritty of it all. So, just off the top of my head, here are a few names (under spoilers, from War for the Crown, Return of the Runelords and Shattered Star. So beware, if you don't want to be spoiled for any of them).

None of the above are "sexy females". And those characters are just the ones I remembered immediately, if you go into those AP's you'll find several others. Yes, they are side characters, but Nocticula's redemption really is not more than a sideshow in Return of the Runelords and even Arueshalae and Sorshen only get one module where they really take part in the plot of the respective AP's they are featured in.

So sexy bad girls are the only mandatory redemptions written in to the plot, all others are optional. You're really tearing my argument apart!

Ah, I see the goal posts being shifted to the word "mandatory". Well done, always the best way to try to distract when you lose an argument. :)

The subtext of this pattern I discussed above is that sexy women sleeping around are evil, but the universe will forgive them if they quit their maneating ways for cold blooded reasons.

Strangely, ugly men/gods doing horrible things never seem to be forgiven or want to change. There's no Shax or mortal serial killer analogue who decides to limit his predations to those who really have it coming and move up to CN, all past torture, mutilations, and murders forgiven. Folca isn't going to move up to N and become the god of scary but character forming clowns or NG and teach children how to protect themselves from and civilize and humanize bullies.

Only hot sexy babes repent and reform in Paizo's products, and only in a subset that have one key ingredient in common. I have some suspicions for why that is.

In isolation this isn't a novel argument. Plenty of people observed...

I'm starting a kick starter for the Redemption of Zutha Project!

I'll do you one better and start the Redemption for the Whispering Tyrant Project! Turns out Aroden drove Tar-Baphon to evil and he really he just wanted to be besties with other Mythic Wizards.

I'll do you one better and start the Redemption for the Whispering Tyrant Project! Turns out Aroden drove Tar-Baphon to evil and he really he just wanted to be besties with other Mythic Wizards.

Now I want to read how that battle between the two really happened^^

I wish it stated the Hallowed Lynx is quite simply the best creature in existence. That is all.

(It's got a great concept, and it's a surprisingly useful critter as a kind of high-level mega-familiar)

Aside from the Neutral Evil alignment (which makes no sense, but there it is...), it's really quite nice. ^^

Reading the entry again, I think they are evil because they were originally created by binding Shining Children(which are evil outsiders) into body of a lynx

Ah, I see the goal posts being shifted to the word "mandatory". Well done, always the best way to try to distract when you lose an argument. :)

Here's the original goal posts:

I think there must have been a significant event or experience during someone's adolescence that has lead to three (edit: or more!) different "hawt evil chick becomes nice girl" plots being put in Pathfinder APs.

Putting these front and center as unavoidable parts of the plot, while throwing a few obscufatory bones (and additional minor supporting evidence) in side plots in an apparently successful attempt to fool the easily fooled is entirely consistent with my thesis.

I've avoided discussing Shensen because it's just too easy, and will have already occurred to everyone able to see what's going on here.

In any case, beyond noting the Nocticula (which isn't new) and Sorshen plot arcs in this book confirming and reinforcing the long existing trend, this isn't on topic. The evidence is there, but it's hardly uncommon for people to refuse to draw unfavorable conclusions based on clear evidence if they don't like where it goes. There's no point in arguing it further.

But I don't want people to think I'm saying that is bad per se. Some people have used this sort of motivation to write good novels, bad poetry, or obscure blogs. Others, maybe, use it to write adventure paths.

Aside from the Neutral Evil alignment (which makes no sense, but there it is...)

Reading the entry again, I think they are evil because they were originally created by binding Shining Children(which are evil outsiders) into body of a lynx

...I mean, they're cats. Do we need more of an explanation? Cats are ***holes. :P