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This is an attempt to break down the various "changes" concerns and issues to try to figure out what we all want.
It seems the intent was to make it functionally full BaB TWF following the TWF progressions at the appropriate levels. The concept being the monk should be comparable to a TWF martial class. This isn't comprehensive, feel free to add.
Power Problems with the "old" way:
1. Allowing a single weapon to be used as frequently as a twf uses two separate weapons is a huge advantage.
2. There was a lack of clarity if you could use THF and flurry.
3. You allow players to avoid having to deal with offhanded attack.
4. You marginalize unarmed, since it is far cheaper and more effective to boost a single weapon than go with AOMF.
Lack of power problem with the "new" way
1. You functionally get TWF, but you don't get access to any of the bonus feat chains.
2. You still have the limitation of only being able to do it with suboptimal (and and generally more rare) monk weapons.
Problems both ways.
1. Unarmed damage goes up, but attack bonus doesn't. Amulet of Mighty fist caps at +5 with a cost greater than two weapons, and takes up a amulet/necklace slot. So unarmed is far worse than using a monk weapon, despite being the iconic concept of the class.
2. Monks generally have lower strength than martial classes, given the need to spread out ability scores more, making the attack bonus even lower.
3. You are more likely to hit with a flurry than with a single attack, which is kind of silly.
The monk is a fun class, but it has become a patchwork class. I hope the Devs take this opportunity to figure out what they want the class to be.
The last several books a "too many cooks in the kitchen" problem has seemed to emerge that isn't the fault of any specific Dev (I think they are all quality) but rather from what I view as a lack of a clear definition of intent for each class.
And frankly, I don't think any of the Devs are big monk players or this would have been cleared up a long time ago.
So I hope however it works out, this time it isn't a bandaid.
Figure out what the Pathfinder monk is supposed to be, and make it so.
Figure out what the Pathfinder monk is supposed to be, and make it so.
This. Make it so.
Please God, make it so indeed.
And the choir sang AMEN!
Master Arminas
1. You functionally get TWF, but you don't get access to any of the bonus feat chains.
Do you need them? Double Slice is unnecessary, you get full bonus to damage regardless. Two Weapon Rend is inappropriate as you may not actually hit with two different weapons, and so on.
2. You still have the limitation of only being able to do it with suboptimal (and and generally more rare) monk weapons.
This is the real problem. Admittedly there have been some additions, and some feats to allow normally non-monk weapons to become monk weapons. On the flip side, past mid-levels and your base unarmed damage is more than most weapons regardless.
Problems both ways.
1. Unarmed damage goes up, but attack bonus doesn't. Amulet of Mighty fist caps at +5 with a cost greater than two weapons, and takes up a amulet/necklace slot. So unarmed is far worse than using a monk weapon, despite being the iconic concept of the class.
Brass Knuckles: they come as a pair, cost as a standard magical weapon. Problem solved.
2. Monks generally have lower strength than martial classes, given the need to spread out ability scores more, making the attack bonus even lower.
The answer in my experience is that you are not going to out-damage the fighter anyway, so don't try. Max out Dexterity and take Weapon Finesse, Agile Maneuvers, then Combat Reflexes; then you can tie down heaps of foes.
3. You are more likely to hit with a flurry than with a single attack, which is kind of silly.
Actually, it doesn't make that much difference. If you only get a single attack it's probably because you charged (+2 to hit), while a flurry at 20th level is 3 points ahead of the normal attack bonus. I;d rather the 'flurry' was the 'monk weapon attack bonus' instead.
The monk is a fun class, but it has become a patchwork class. I hope the Devs take this opportunity to figure out what they want the class to be.
The monk makes an excellent maneuver-based fighter, a decent scout, is very effective at getting him where you want him to be, and is very effective in many ways not immediately obvious. Many DMs do not like monks because whatever they do the monk tends to just keep coming - and coming very fast. Conversely, monks are not fighters, and trying to play them as such does not work.
Brass knuckles do inferior damage to even most monk weapons as they do not use your unarmed damage.
You mean they crappified them again? That made no sense.
I have suggested that there be a Greater Ki Focus weapon attribute that allows a monk to substitute their unarmed damage for the weapon damage. With that fix, the monk is suddenly pretty decent.
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Paizo, we'll all give you a mulligan on the monk. Re-release them as a full BAB, d10, unarmed (or scarcely armed) and unarmoured warrior who gains Two-Weapon Fighting at first level, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting at sixth level, Greater-Two Weapon Fighting at 11th level, and has scaling unarmed strikes.
Flurry of Blows need no longer apply.
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You mean they crappified them again? That made no sense.
I have suggested that there be a Greater Ki Focus weapon attribute that allows a monk to substitute their unarmed damage for the weapon damage. With that fix, the monk is suddenly pretty decent.
I think they need to stop patching and have a long sit down to decide what they want.
If it is an unarmed fighting class, allow them to be as good unarmed as they are armed. Right now, the gap is a higher gold cost and an additional slot cost to get comparable.
Like I said, I don't think any of the Devs play monks regularly.
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Heh, I see a fighter (monk) archetype coming down the road.
At first level, the monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike. This replaces the fighter first level feat.
At second level, the monk gains Two weapon fighting. This replaces the fighter second level feat.
At second level, the monk may apply his wisdom bonus in addition to his dexterity bonus to ac, but only while wearing no armor. This ability replaces the bravery class feature.
At third level, the monk gains a bonus to speed. This bonus starts at +10 at 3rd level, and improves by an additional ten at 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th for a total bonus of +60 at 18th level. This ability replaces the armor training class feature.
At fourth level, the monk gains a ki pool. Ki pool information yadda yadda yadda, the extra attack from using a ki point does not stack with haste. This ability replaces the 4th level bonus feat.
At fifth level, the monk gains weapon training, but may only select the monk weapon group. At when a fighter would normally gain an additional weapon group, he may increase his bonus with the monk weapon group as normal, but may not select any additional weapon groups.
At sixth level, the monk gains improved two weapon fighting. This replaces the 6th level fighter bonus feat.
ect. as necessary to keep balance. The whole spell resistance thing can be dropped, I think. I definitely prefer the fighter capstone to the current monk capstone :D
God, I hope not, Magicdealer.
MA
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Heh, I see a fighter (monk) archetype coming down the road.
At first level, the monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike. This replaces the fighter first level feat.
At second level, the monk gains Two weapon fighting. This replaces the fighter second level feat.
At second level, the monk may apply his wisdom bonus in addition to his dexterity bonus to ac, but only while wearing no armor. This ability replaces the bravery class feature.
At third level, the monk gains a bonus to speed. This bonus starts at +10 at 3rd level, and improves by an additional ten at 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th for a total bonus of +60 at 18th level. This ability replaces the armor training class feature.
At fourth level, the monk gains a ki pool. Ki pool information yadda yadda yadda, the extra attack from using a ki point does not stack with haste. This ability replaces the 4th level bonus feat.
At fifth level, the monk gains weapon training, but may only select the monk weapon group. At when a fighter would normally gain an additional weapon group, he may increase his bonus with the monk weapon group as normal, but may not select any additional weapon groups.
At sixth level, the monk gains improved two weapon fighting. This replaces the 6th level fighter bonus feat.
ect. as necessary to keep balance. The whole spell resistance thing can be dropped, I think. I definitely prefer the fighter capstone to the current monk capstone :D
I'd try that. Weapon Training would make up for lack of unarmed strike progressing, and you'd only need a 15 Dex to grab Double Slice.
A 20 point-buy could look like Str 16, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8. He'd probably still be good in light armour most of the time, but the wisdom to AC would be really helpful for delicate situations or getting caught with pants down. Take away heavy and medium armour proficiency and replace them with Perception as a class skill and 4 skill points. :)
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Heh, I see a fighter (monk) archetype coming down the road.
At first level, the monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike. This replaces the fighter first level feat.
At second level, the monk gains Two weapon fighting. This replaces the fighter second level feat.
At second level, the monk may apply his wisdom bonus in addition to his dexterity bonus to ac, but only while wearing no armor. This ability replaces the bravery class feature.
At third level, the monk gains a bonus to speed. This bonus starts at +10 at 3rd level, and improves by an additional ten at 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th for a total bonus of +60 at 18th level. This ability replaces the armor training class feature.
At fourth level, the monk gains a ki pool. Ki pool information yadda yadda yadda, the extra attack from using a ki point does not stack with haste. This ability replaces the 4th level bonus feat.
At fifth level, the monk gains weapon training, but may only select the monk weapon group. At when a fighter would normally gain an additional weapon group, he may increase his bonus with the monk weapon group as normal, but may not select any additional weapon groups.
At sixth level, the monk gains improved two weapon fighting. This replaces the 6th level fighter bonus feat.
ect. as necessary to keep balance. The whole spell resistance thing can be dropped, I think. I definitely prefer the fighter capstone to the current monk capstone :D
I'd try that. Weapon Training would make up for lack of unarmed strike progressing, and you'd only need a 15 Dex to grab Double Slice.
A 20 point-buy could look like Str 16, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8. He'd probably still be good in light armour most of the time, but the wisdom to AC would be really helpful for delicate situations or getting caught with pants down. Take away heavy and medium armour proficiency and replace them with Perception as a class skill and 4 skill points. :)
I would play that as well, but I don't think it would be a monk.
Again, for me it comes down to the need for the devs to dedicate a day sitting in a locked room to hash out exactly what they see the class as being and then create that, rather than the patchwork changes that have been coming out in fits and bursts.
I'm not sure I will like the final product, but at least then it will be something clearly defined rather than what we have blowing up on the boards every few weeks.
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My first choice for a monk re-make would be removing a fair amount of the unusual abilities on the monk - and then exposing them all as optional ki powers. Similar to rage powers and rogue talents.
I would play that as well, but I don't think it would be a monk.What is a monk?
You, TriOmegaZero, it's that thing that the developers dangle in front of the players just so they jerk it away at the last minute, like they are playing with a kitten and a piece of string.
Master Arminas
I think the problem with the new ruling is it's delay.
I also think the Devs were completely aware that many people were using the "artifact" ruling from 3.5 about one weapon full flurries. They ignored our oversight until the UC monk weapons came out. Those weapons are likely getting clarified in the upcoming Ultimate Equipment.
The problems that I see:
1) Flurry with a reach Weapon
2) Flurry with a 2 handed weapon.
3) Monk weapons that may or may not be a double weapon.
4) Any or all of #1-3 combinable with a full, one weapon FoB.
Any of these have the potential to make a headache in the future.
They are trying to address one of the oldest issues with the monk class, a crappy weapon selection. To do that they need to fix FoB so it doesn't become broken with the new options.
We KNOW that there is an issue in the disparity of cost for magic items that monks need. Particularly the ubiquitous AoMF and the Bracers. It's an 800lb. Gorilla for some games.
They do not want to change the AoMF. They think it's fine as is. I disagree but I concede that JB & SKR are much better at numbers crunching and balancing than I am. Getting monks to the right "Accuracy Rate" without making them the new damage engine is going to be a challenge.
My first choice for a monk re-make would be removing a fair amount of the unusual abilities on the monk - and then exposing them all as optional ki powers. Similar to rage powers and rogue talents.
I believe this is why the Quinggong Archtype is so popular, it's very modular.
The problem here is that ki points are the most limited (class feature) resource in the game.
I don't believe the class needs to be rebuilt.
The primary obstacle to the monk is it's attractiveness as a dip class. It has been designed with built in handicaps to prevent dipping. Those handicaps hurt real Monks at advanced levels however.
A full BAB d10, class with TWF at first level is just a Ranger from a monastery. That's a bad route to take I think.
The things I like in the class are it's Save progressions, AC mods, useful skill selection and the speed coupled with feats. If I lose any of that for BAB and HP I doubt I'd like the class mechanically.
I think the implications being made here is... if you want to be an effective Monk in 3e/3.5/PF your best option is *still* to just play a cleric with Imp Unarmed Strike and rebrand all your class features with words like "ki Powers" "Meditation" and "Unlocking Chakra Gates"
That's unfortunate, I don't like clerics particularly.
I don't want to HAVE to cast spells.
I would play that as well, but I don't think it would be a monk.What is a monk?
The earliest reference I own says,
Dotted across the landscape are monasteries--small, walled cloisters inhabited by monks. These monks pursue personal perfection through action as well as contemplation. They train themselves to be versatile warriors skilled at fighting without weapons or armor. Monasteries headed by good masters serve as protectors of the people. Ready for battle even when barefoot and dressed in peasant clothes, monks are able to travel unnoticed among the the populace, catching bandits, warlords, and corrupt nobles unawares. By contrast, monasteries headed by evil masters rule surrounding lands through fear, as an evil warlord's castle might. Evil monks make ideal spies, infiltrators, and assassins.
By that standard,
(1) monks train in monasteries and keep ties to them, i.e., be lawful and pledge herself to a specific order like a cavalier;(2) be contemplative, i.e., have wisdom and wisdom-based skills;
(3) be versatile, i.e., have abilities that can solve a variety of problems;
(4) fight well without weapons or armor; i.e., have Improved Unarmed Strike and ability-based substitutes for armor;
(5) blend in with common people even at high levels, i.e., not require obvious magic items such as magic weapons and Bracers of Armor.
That was the monk as envisioned. The actual monk designed in 3.0 and redesigned in 3.5 gave a different impression. When Paizo imported the 3.5 monk into Pathfinder, they wrote their own description of the result:
For the truly exemplary, martial skill transcends the battlefield—it is a lifestyle, a doctrine, a state of mind. These warrior-artists search out methods of battle beyond swords and shields, finding weapons within themselves just as capable of crippling or killing as any blade. These monks (so called since they adhere to ancient philosophies and strict martial disciplines) elevate their bodies to become weapons of war, from battle-minded ascetics to self-taught brawlers. Monks tread the path of discipline, and those with the will to endure that path discover within themselves not what they are, but what they are meant to be.
The mechanics became the class. Paizo had to create the monk archetypes to have any hope of making a contemplative, versatile, unassuming monk.