Defender always wins? Tie rolls.

I actually can't find what you are suppose to do in case of a tie. I have never been that bothered by it since its a 5% chance it should ever happen. However, one session, one player actually ran into this for 5 rolls in a row. In other sessions his rolls never seem to hit or succeed because he always manages to tie. This isn't a case of us just remembering the times he failed and forgetting the rest, he always seems to ether tie or miss.

This also has something to do with the fact that at level 3, he has a base attack of +1 and a dex of 15. He only has a +3 to attack, "+4 because of point blank shot" and for some strange reason everything we fight tend to have an ac in the 19-22 area. That goes into a different topic altogether though, question is.

Not to go up into to much details, but his class is suppose to have a low base attack because he is suppose to be a "caster" but this campaign does not have spells. He was given an "animal companion" who is effectively "another player" but also has about the same chances as him.

So in short, does Defender always wins on Tie rolls.

The CMD and AC are target numbers. You match that number, you succeed. You roll + mod one lower, you fail. There are no "tie rolls" in D&D. They're all "match the number or better" rolls.

So, your player who rolled equal to the defender's number (whether AC, CMD, Bluff check, Stealth check, Perception check, whatever) was successful.

If a roll, be it attack, skill check or whatever, equals or exceeds the DC (AC for attacks), it succeeds.

Its not entirely clear (from my reading) what you're asking. You're talking about BAB and attack bonuses, so I'm inclined to think you mean when an attack ties with an AC, but I'm not sure.

Assuming that is what you mean, AC is a target number for attacks. As long as a roll + applicable bonuses equal or exceed the AC value, then its a hit. If I have a +7 to hit (all bonuses added together) and want to hit a 15 AC, then I need an 8 or higher on the die roll, that simple. :)

If you're asking about something else, please clarify and we can help with that as well.

All of the above except that when you are doing competing rolls, the tie goes to the guy with the higher modifier. If both have the same modifier, you re-roll.

For example: If two people are having a cook-off, one with a modifier of +8 and the other with a modifier of +7, but they both receive an 18 as their result, the guy with the modifier of +8 wins. If they both had a +7 and both received an 18, they would re-roll until they were no longer tied.

There is no tie, there is only did or did not.

EDIT: I should mention that for the purpose of tie breaking you use your total modifier for the roll, including all circumstance and other odd bonuses and penalties, even if those modifiers only count for just that roll.

All of the above except that when you are doing competing rolls, the tie goes to the guy with the higher modifier. If both have the same modifier, you re-roll.

Mmmm, no. Most "competing rolls" are opposed skill checks, which the defender does win ties on regardless of base modifiers. Initiative ties are commonly adjudicated as you describe, but as far as I'm aware that's not an official rule.

StabbittyDoom wrote:

All of the above except that when you are doing competing rolls, the tie goes to the guy with the higher modifier. If both have the same modifier, you re-roll.

Mmmm, no. Most "competing rolls" are opposed skill checks, which the defender does win ties on regardless of base modifiers. Initiative ties are commonly adjudicated as you describe, but as far as I'm aware that's not an official rule.

No. A spot check of 12 sees a stealth check of 12. At total to hit of 17 hits ac 17. You don't have to hit 18 to hit 17, you gotta hit 17. A sense motive of 10 beats a bluff of 10.

No. A spot check of 12 sees a stealth check of 12... A sense motive of 10 beats a bluff of 10.

Incorrect:

If the result of your skill check is equal to or greater than the difficulty class (or DC) of the task you are attempting to accomplish, you succeed. If it is less than the DC, you fail. Some tasks have varying levels of success and failure depending on how much your check is above or below the required DC. Some skill checks are opposed by the target's skill check. When making an opposed skill check, the attempt is successful if your check result exceeds the result of the target.

Name Violation wrote:

No. A spot check of 12 sees a stealth check of 12... A sense motive of 10 beats a bluff of 10.

Incorrect:

Quote:

If the result of your skill check is equal to or greater than the difficulty class (or DC) of the task you are attempting to accomplish, you succeed. If it is less than the DC, you fail. Some tasks have varying levels of success and failure depending on how much your check is above or below the required DC. Some skill checks are opposed by the target's skill check. When making an opposed skill check, the attempt is successful if your check result exceeds the result of the target.

I always thought it was meet or meet.

PRD:
Difficulty Class (DC): Whenever a creature attempts to perform an action whose success is not guaranteed, he must make some sort of check (usually a skill check). The result of that check must meet or exceed the Difficulty Class of the action that the creature is attempting to perform in order for the action to be successful.

It seems like we have another rules contradiction here. My fellow posters need to flag this one. Nice catch though, Zurai.

I think the contradiction you are seeing is not a contradiction at all. Opposed checks don't have set DCs. The stealth roll isn't the DC for the perception check, it's just the stealth roll which you must exceed with your perception check.

It has always been "meet or beat" at our tables, and we've played with several DMs. Makes sense that DCs are the target number. Anything higher than the DC is icing on the cake.

Zurai wrote:

Name Violation wrote:

No. A spot check of 12 sees a stealth check of 12... A sense motive of 10 beats a bluff of 10.

Incorrect:

Quote:

If the result of your skill check is equal to or greater than the difficulty class (or DC) of the task you are attempting to accomplish, you succeed. If it is less than the DC, you fail. Some tasks have varying levels of success and failure depending on how much your check is above or below the required DC. Some skill checks are opposed by the target's skill check. When making an opposed skill check, the attempt is successful if your check result exceeds the result of the target.

I always thought it was meet or meet.

PRD:
Difficulty Class (DC): Whenever a creature attempts to perform an action whose success is not guaranteed, he must make some sort of check (usually a skill check). The result of that check must meet or exceed the Difficulty Class of the action that the creature is attempting to perform in order for the action to be successful.

It seems like we have another rules contradiction here. My fellow posters need to flag this one. Nice catch though, Zurai.

No rule contradiction here.

DC = meet or exceed
opposed check = higher check wins

DC is not when a character or NPC making a skill check against another skill check from a different character or NPC.

opposed example: Rachel the Rogue is trying to sneak past Gus the Guard towards the armory. She makes a stealth check of 11. For Gus the Guard to hear her, he must make a check result of 12 to hear Rachel.

DC example: Gus the Guard locks the door behind him as left the armory for his roving patrol. Rachel the Rogue must meet or exceed the DC 20 check for opening the simple lock on the armory door.

Ok, I see where I misread it.
So what about caster level checks. caster level + 11 = X
Do you have to meet or beat X to dispel a spell?

I realize that the rules are meet or beat on attacks, but just to add a slightly different perspective I have always used the houserule in my home game that a tie goes to the defender. It is one of those things that doesn't affect things too much, but in the small ways it does it makes both sides of the battle just slightly more survivable.

I do treat skill checks as meet or beat though since that more often favors the players and encourages them to try skills with a little encouragement.

Caster level checks and spell resistance are versus a DC, not an opposed check. So you must meet or beat. Unless, you have some house rules for spell duels.

Counterspell: DC=15 + spell level
Dispel: DC=11 + caster's level

- Tarlane, house rules are your option.

The Most Important Rule

The rules in this book are here to help you breathe life into your characters and the world they explore. While they are designed to make your game easy and exciting, you might find that some of them do not suit the style of play that your gaming group enjoys. Remember that these rules are yours. You can change them to fit your needs. Most Game Masters have a number of “house rules” that they use in their games. The Game Master and players should always discuss any rules changes to make sure that everyone understands how the game will be played. Although the Game Master is the final arbiter of the rules, the Pathfinder RPG is a shared experience, and all of the players should contribute their thoughts when the rules are in doubt.

Most people seem to forget that one...

Referring to a few previous posts, the rules for opposed checks read "exceed the target". There were two examples given as well, Perception vs. Stealth and Bluff vs Sense Motive. Who's roll becomes the target for these?

One party has to set the target, with the other needing to exceed it. I can't decide who's action would get the priority. In most instances, I will default to the Player's benefit. The players will set the target that the NPCs will have to exceed. This gives the Players a slight advantage.

Referring to a few previous posts, the rules for opposed checks read "exceed the target". There were two examples given as well, Perception vs. Stealth and Bluff vs Sense Motive. Who's roll becomes the target for these?

One party has to set the target, with the other needing to exceed it. I can't decide who's action would get the priority. In most instances, I will default to the Player's benefit. The players will set the target that the NPCs will have to exceed. This gives the Players a slight advantage.

The stealth and bluff check come first since without them there is no need for a perception or sense motive check.

Referring to a few previous posts, the rules for opposed checks read "exceed the target". There were two examples given as well, Perception vs. Stealth and Bluff vs Sense Motive. Who's roll becomes the target for these?

One party has to set the target, with the other needing to exceed it. I can't decide who's action would get the priority. In most instances, I will default to the Player's benefit. The players will set the target that the NPCs will have to exceed. This gives the Players a slight advantage.

In cases where it's "Tie goes to the Defender," the Defender is the person who has something to hide. A list of what opposed checks are common as I see it just from glancing at the Skill Table:

Bluff - Defender vs. Sense Motive
Disguise - Defender vs. Perception; only if noticed
Escape Artist - Attacker vs. DC or vs. Use Rope (Dex) check
Linguistics - Defender vs. Linguistics; forgery function, only if noticed
Perception - Attacker vs. Disguise, Sleight of Hand, Stealth
Sense Motive - Attacker vs. Bluff
Sleight of Hand - Defender vs. Perception
Stealth - Defender vs. Perception

Special Cases
Diplomacy - Opposed checks have no Defender; high roll wins
Handle Animal - Opposed checks have no Defender; high roll wins

Hope that helps out a bit.

Wow... I've always treated rolls as "meet or beat" since I figured they worked just like AC and DC. If the PC sneak rolls Stealth 12 and the NPC guard rolls Perception 12, I figured the sneak was seen...but apparently, the NPC guard needs Perception 13 to notice the sneak.

I wonder why this works different than AC and DC?