Let's say you were given the option to retrain feats from your GM. Hypothetically, let's say at each even level you were given the option to swap a feat you have currently for a new one that you qualify for. Now let's pretend there is no limit to what feats you can replace the old feat with as long as you currently meet the new requirements. How do you believe this would enhance or diminish gameplay?
As an example, let's say at 1st level you take a feat that has no prerequisite (like Skill Focus {Basketweaving}), then at 6th level you now qualify for Vital Strike (BAB +6), so you swap your basket weaving for Vital Strike. Obviously you'd probably have better feats but you get the idea.
Now contrast this with being able to do the same except with feats that you qualified for when you took the initial feat. But can you think of a way that this wouldn't get convoluted, having to keep track of what you qualified for way back when?
As an example, let's say that you took a feat back at 1st level, and it required Strength 15, and now at 12th level you decide that feat sucked an you don't like it, so you want to retrain it. So you have to pick another feat that you could have qualified for at 1st. Say maybe two-weapon fighting, except you needed to be able to qualify for it way back when. You've since distributed some stat increases and you totally qualify, but did you way back? Do you need to reverse engineer your PC if you're playing with a pregen? Can you think of a way this wouldn't end up at least somewhat convoluted?
And finally, what if you had a hybrid of the two? Maybe your GM is nice and believes that since certain statistics can be raised or lowered over the course of a character's journey they should be able to retrain stuff within reason (maybe he or she likes the idea that you might retrain feats as you no longer qualify for them, such as with aging adjustments in favor of new things you qualify for), but restricts only based on the following statistics: BAB, skill ranks, base saving throws, and class level requirements.
As an example of this method, you could retrain for feats you didn't qualify for at 1st level (say you rolled poorly and didn't have the needed 15 Dex for Two Weapon Fighting but now you're 8th level and by gum you totally qualify for it now!), but you can't take things that are specifically barred from acquisition based on hit dice (you couldn't take Weapon Specialization with a feat that you got before 4th level because it requires 4 levels of fighter, nor could you take Vital Strike because it required more BAB than you could have possessed at that level, etc).
So assuming that your GM was offering one of these options, which would you prefer and why? This came up recently in a conversation with some tabletop friends of mine, and I wanted to get some other ideas and opinions. Personally, I kind of dig the 3rd option the most, though I can understand the desire for simplicity in #1, and the desire for fairness in #2.
So what do you guys and gals think? Which would you prefer, and why?
The first one, with the third if there had to be limits on it.
Seems like a good way to save a player/character when he goes "Crap, I wanted this Feat but it had THIS one as a prerequisite and I forgot to take it 5 levels ago."
The first one, with the third if there had to be limits on it.
Seems like a good way to save a player/character when he goes "Crap, I wanted this Feat but it had THIS one as a prerequisite and I forgot to take it 5 levels ago."
Pretty much the idea behind this. We got into a discussion about optional rules concerning retraining of characters (there was some in 3.5) but most of them seem fairly convoluted. There were some tricks in 3.5 that allowed you to reselect all your feats (psychic reformation was the simplest method) and it led to a phenomena called "reforging" a character, where you could replace old feats with new feats you now qualified for but didn't back in the days of old, and there was some discussion as to whether or not that was a good, bad, or indifferent sort of thing.
Most of us agreed we liked the idea of being able to go "oops, made a mistake" and spend a bit of off-screen time doing to a training montage and learning a new trick in favor of an old one. I personally leaned more towards the 3rd because I think it's simple enough to not become convoluted and doesn't require you to keep intimate records of your character's entire career (perhaps I'm just old school, or perhaps too new school, but I generally use either a single character sheet and keep modding it or use a digital sheet), while also preventing someone from going "Okay, now all my feats are stuff with a BAB +11 or better! :D". Replace BAB with 11 ranks in a skill, 11th+ caster level, 8 levels in Fighter, or whatever.
At the same time, I can't help but to feel the first method is definitely the simplest and creates a new option in the game where you would actually be encouraged to adjust your routine heavily from low to high levels. Cleave is awesome at low levels but near useless at high levels, so you would be expected to swap Cleave for something like Dazing Assault when you qualified for this new shiny feat.
Interesting to think about. :)
I approve of this idea. However, I'm also expecting a huge wave of people coming here to accuse you of supporting munchkins.
I approve of this idea. However, I'm also expecting a huge wave of people coming here to accuse you of supporting munchkins.
Well thanks. Don't worry, I've steeled myself against the almost inevitable flood. :P
I'm curious though. Given the opportunity, which would you choose? The least restrictive #1, which might cause issues with loading up on high level-only feats (since it high level only I'm not sure it's really so bad); #2 the most restrictive (prevents abuse potential) but most convoluted and/or complicated; or #3, the hybrid method that keeps certain feats restricted (not allowing more +X BAB feats or CL X feats than you should be able to normally have) while also being open to most everything else (such as going back and retraining feats now that you have the needed ability score requisites)?
I'm legitimately curious. If so, then why?
/Topic: This is actually of great interest to me because not only is it something I'm curious about in general but it also concerns a Star Wars RPG I'm working on for my players, as the RPG emphasizes feats heavily (lots of customization) and after discussing it with my group it turned out there's a lot of different ways we could go about doing it. One of the things I wanted was to offer the opportunity for characters who have grown older or changed their ways due to circumstances to be able to re-grow effectively.
A great example would be Darth Vader. During his youth he was exceptionally nimble, but after suffering disfiguring wounds and being turned into a cyborg he found himself lacking that sort of dexterity but now possessing mechanically enhanced strength, so he adapted his fighting style over time to adjust for this (emphasizing form V with singular precise but powerful strikes). In mechanical terms he took a huge hit to Dexterity but got a big buff to Strength, and suddenly probably doesn't qualify for feats like Mobility or Agile Steps, yet things like Power Attack and Vital Strike might look way more appealing now. :P
For a D&D example, reincarnate can end up with very similar effects. If you get re-incarnated you can easily end up losing access to several of your feats. For example, a Halfling who qualifies for Two Weapon Fighting comes back to life as a Bugbear. Suddenly he just got what amounts to a net +6 Strength gain at a loss of -2 Dexterity and his size bonuses. Suddenly he probably doesn't qualify for Two Weapon Fighting, but now might have access to new feats.
I'd suggest option 1. The bookkeeping is minimal and is manageable without requiring a copy of every level's character sheet.
I would add these rules: You can only untrain 1 feat a level (or whatever the frequency is). You cannot dump a feat that is a prerequisite for a feat you still have. You cannot pick feats whose only prereqs are level or BAB dependent.
This means you can't dump power attack for vital strike, but you can dump TWF for Power Attack because you found that you like greatswords a whole lot. This point should prevent dropping of low level feats for the powerful later-level feats (though, really this isn't a problem for every class; in fact the majority of such feats are monk stances and fighter options).
What happens when you dump a feat that is a prerequisite for a feat you maintain? Say, I want Whirlwind attack, but I don't care about most of the chain required to get it. So, my human fighter takes combat expertise, dodge, and mobility at 1st. Then, at 4th level he takes spring attack, and drops mobility (no longer required for anything) to take whirlwind attack. Even if you ruled that he has to keep mobility at 4th, to gain spring attack, he could do it at 5th level.
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I prefer not to have a default rule for retraining but to take it on a situational individual case by case basis. Retraining should reflect as a part of character development, not something that should be used as a standard swap mechanic the way wizard characters change spell selections.
My group also handles retraining individually, though if a player hasn't planned for a feat tree and needs prerequisites or has reason to alter their combat style or role we usually allow retraining.
When we do retrain, we usually go with something similar to option 3. We don't bother with tracking at exactly what level you added certain skill points or put an ability increase into Dex, but you can't use retraining to dodge feat prerequisites or to fill your low level feat slots with feats you couldn't possibly have taken at that level.
My personal argument against it is feat retraining is a fighter specific ability, that so far *no one* else has been able to get. As such I wouldn't like to see it branch out much.
Also I never like allowing players to get something they couldn't get the first time around when it comes to feats.
In all the years I've run versions of D&D with feats in them, I've allowed totally free retraining of feats every level--not just one per level, but any and all of them each level. And maybe at other times if I felt like it.
The amount of time it takes to become bored with what your character can do is invariably shorter than the time it takes to become bored with who your character is--at least in my experience--so retraining is a great way to breathe new life into a game for someone that likes their fluff but is bored of the crunch.
My personal argument against it is feat retraining is a fighter specific ability, that so far *no one* else has been able to get. As such I wouldn't like to see it branch out much.
Also I never like allowing players to get something they couldn't get the first time around when it comes to feats.
Well that would have concerned me if it wasn't for the Fighter's feat retraining being so worthless as to be basically non-existant in most cases. Fighters can only retrain 1 feat / 4 fighter levels, and it must be a Fighter bonus feat, and it cannot be a feat that is used as a prerequisite for another feat. With all these restrictions, I can't recall the last time I saw a Fighter go "oops, retrain" in Pathfinder.
About the only feat I can think of that a fighter would take at low levels and be able to swap out easily would be Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and only if he hasn't taken Weapon Focus or similar in that weapon. >.>
So to me, the Fighter's retraining is effectively non-existent and isn't worth my concern; and certainly that class has stunted advancement of the game enough as it is. (~.~)
What happens when you dump a feat that is a prerequisite for a feat you maintain? Say, I want Whirlwind attack, but I don't care about most of the chain required to get it. So, my human fighter takes combat expertise, dodge, and mobility at 1st. Then, at 4th level he takes spring attack, and drops mobility (no longer required for anything) to take whirlwind attack. Even if you ruled that he has to keep mobility at 4th, to gain spring attack, he could do it at 5th level.
It is a standard rule that if you no longer qualify for a feat you lose access to it. That's in core actually and has been a case for feats since 3.0 as far as I know. I actually considered this after thinking about how Fighter retraining effectively blows because of how hard-coded your feats are, which is why when I was writing this up for my Star Wars RPG it was written like this:
Feat Retraining
Sometimes a player will wish to re-select a feat. Perhaps a feat is not working as the player expected, or the character no longer qualifies for the feat for some reason. The most common reason for this is due to ability score adjustments from aging, or changes to the character's statistics after cybernetic modifications.Retraining a feat takes time and has special restrictions. A character may retrain one feat when they achieve a new character level, and the feat must be retrained before they take their next character level or the opportunity is wasted. The feat to be retrained should not be a prerequisite for another feat the character possesses (this doesn't prevent the retraining but will cause feats requiring the lost feat to become inactive due to loss of the prerequisite which is generally undesirable to a player). The new feat that will be gained in its place must be a feat that you qualify for and is subject to some restrictions. The new feat cannot have a base attack bonus, level, saving throw, or skill rank prerequisites that were impossible to qualify for at the level you gained the original feat.
Example: Corlana Jui the Jedi Guardian is now 8th level and wishes to retrain a feat she gained at 1st level. She can retrain her feat, but cannot choose any feat that has a BAB requirement of +2 or higher, 2 or more ranks in a skill, a +3 or higher saving throw, or requires more than 1 level in a class she possesses.
I think if I were going to do it I think I would make the call on a case by case basis and not make it a standard SOP for my characters. But to be honest, I would not look down on anyone for doing it on a more regular basis. I could see how once you play a character for a while your vision for that character might shift or change.
Hasn't something like this been mentioned in regard to the upcoming Ultimate Campaign book?
Feat retraining during down time at least has the advantage of not stepping on any existing class features.