My party of iconics was TPK'd, If you must run this with the pregens, do not use the rogue, ranger or fighter. Between them they did a total of 10 hp damage on the Scarlet Son, the Succubus and her demon, as they just could not overcome the DR.
Fun story, but this thing is a meat grinder.
The rogue has a cold iron dagger. The paladin has 10 cold iron arrows she can give to the ranger. The cleric can cast align weapon on the fighter's sword and can herself use spiritual weapon.
DR should not be a problem.
My party of iconics was TPK'd, If you must run this with the pregens, do not use the rogue, ranger or fighter. Between them they did a total of 10 hp damage on the Scarlet Son, the Succubus and her demon, as they just could not overcome the DR.
Fun story, but this thing is a meat grinder.
The rogue has a cold iron dagger. The paladin has 10 cold iron arrows she can give to the ranger. The cleric can cast align weapon on the fighter's sword and can herself use spiritual weapon.
DR should not be a problem.
I agree. The Paladin also has Bless Weapon he can cast on someone's weapon (since his smite is already overcoming the DR).
It should also be noted the Paladin can opt for a Cold Iron +1 longsword in addition to bless weapon. If anything they should trade and then the Paladin bless the fighter's sword.
The Ranger's tanglefoot bag option will half of the time ground the Scarlet Son with a little better then a 50% chance of success.
Everyone except the Wizard have +1 weapons so they ignore the Scarlet Sons DR. The Fighter, Rogue and Ranger (as previously mentioned) can have the Cleric or Paladin cast Bless Weapon to deal with the Succubi.
I'm confused by the amount of difficulty your group had...
The PC's don't know what's coming, so they don't know what would be the best mods to get. Once they do know, they MIGHT not know what overcomes the DR.
The equipment I mentioned above is their standard combat equipment. Even if the players don't know, their Knowledge checks should help or failing that, after stabbing with their normal weapons the GM should prompt the player with something like, "You notice your attack had little effect as your blade skips across her silky skin like a dull knife against a tomato. Perhaps there is some other weapon you have that could be more effective?"
Creative Director
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Why would is the Free RPG Day module a 5th level adventure is beyond me. If you want to introduce people to PF, you really should begin with a level 1 adventure.
Because we wanted to tie the adventure in to the Champions of Evil minis encounter pack. And some of those monsters don't do well at all as a 1st level adventure.
We chose 5th level because that's as low as I really felt we could go while still featuring a CR 8 monster with the assumption that there'd be 6 PCs in the adventure (we assumed 6 PCs because of anecdotal evidence/feedback from how many players played in We Be Goblins last year, and because you can fit more folks at a 6 person table than a 4 person table, and so on).
And while this is indeed one way for us to introduce people to Pathfinder... it's not the ONLY purpose Free RPG day serves for us, since the bulk of those who go to Free RPG day are probably NOT people who have never heard of RPGs or are trying to get into them for the first time. A product that appeals to established gamers is as important as an intro product—perhaps MORE important—for Free RPG day.
Whether or not making a super-short adventure to serve so many different masters worked or not... time will tell, I guess.
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It would need to be an entirely different bent if we are creating an event for new players around the world. That is what the Beginner’s Box is for.
Interesting to see a pile of negative reviews from day one of release. JJ is usually such a fine writer, it will be interesting to see if the reviews stay low (and if I agree) once this module is more widely available.
I'll be interested too. It's sounding like there was a certain gap in expectations though. People seem to have assumed it was a "module for new players" and that it was therefore going to be on the easy side of things (or at least not exceptionally difficult). Perhaps if it was approached with a different mindset the experience wouldnt be so jarring.
.I certainly can't remember a JJ adventure that has been less than terrific.
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Ran it for 2 new players and 1 experienced.They used the pregens, so 4 of them minus the fighter and ranger. Knew this wouldnt work out well but played, just because. It went okay till the end. They knew about the shrine before the ambush and went there, but didnt look out back. Ambush and chase seen was okay. Scarlet Son died easily and the 3 went down pretty fast with some good roles.
Than we get to the next encounter and the wizard throws a fireball that catches cleric, pally and bad guys.
We snagged the module last night (a happy chance that there were still some left in the early evening!) and ran through it later that night. While a tough fight, the adventurers won the day and most importantly, everyone had a good time.
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I actually like this Module, there is enough there in 9 pages to get a nice short story in.
The issue comes is if the group decides not to take upon themselves to do a little investigation of the murders.
If they skip the investigation they will miss the cues on what they will be facing and will not be ready for it.
Those who will have problems are groups that try to play with less then 6 players or/and groups that decide not to do their own investigation.
I think my biggest problem with the scenario was there was way too many stat block errors in it, though that might be more noticeable due to how short it is.
The PC's don't know what's coming, so they don't know what would be the best mods to get. Once they do know, they MIGHT not know what overcomes the DR.
Yeah, this--+1 I had casual Pathfinder players and some 4e folks at the table. A lot of options just didn't enter their heads. In the long run, just scoring a hit on the villains was difficult enough, let alone overcoming any DR. They also failed lots of saving throws.
Yea...honestly, "using all your options" is not a thing casual players do. Not even ones with a moderate level of system mastery do this, unfortunately.
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The Ranger's tanglefoot bag option will half of the time ground the Scarlet Son with a little better then a 50% chance of success.
But at the time the player has to decide what option to take, they have absolutely no idea what they are going to face. The mission briefing doesn't come until after all the characters are assembled.
Regular characters fare better - they'll probably have enough cash in hand to be able to pick up a few handy odds-and-ends after they've learned a little more about what they might be facing. But the pregens don't have enough money - their only significant choices are which of the listed customisations the player decides to take.
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And while this is indeed one way for us to introduce people to Pathfinder... it's not the ONLY purpose Free RPG day serves for us, since the bulk of those who go to Free RPG day are probably NOT people who have never heard of RPGs or are trying to get into them for the first time. A product that appeals to established gamers is as important as an intro product—perhaps MORE important—for Free RPG day.
Whether or not making a super-short adventure to serve so many different masters worked or not... time will tell, I guess.
Well, as a GM who had signed up to run this on Free RPG Day, I'd appreciate just a little more guidance from Paizo. Am I supposed to be running this as an introductory module for new-to-RPG players, a taster of Pathfinder for experienced gamers, a PFS-sanctioned module for a typical game-day or convention table, or an "If at first you don't succeed, try, try, try again" scenario for Lair Assault or other System Mastery afficionados?
Those who will have problems are groups that try to play with less then 6 players or/and groups that decide not to do their own investigation.
Our group did do a fair bit of investigation and got the
I think my biggest problem with the scenario was there was way too many stat block errors in it
Out of interest can you detail what the errors were? We TPK'd which is alright. I've yet to die in PFS before so I'm more than happy. But I'm curious as to how much contributed to the TPK.
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Those who will have problems are groups that try to play with less then 6 players or/and groups that decide not to do their own investigation.Our group did do a fair bit of investigation and got the ** spoiler omitted **
I think my biggest problem with the scenario was there was way too many stat block errors in itOut of interest can you detail what the errors were? We TPK'd which is alright. I've yet to die in PFS before so I'm more than happy. But I'm curious as to how much contributed to the TPK.
It was only a Diplomacy (Gather Information) DC 20 check to get the first bit of info about a "Demon" flying about, that should be easy for level 5s. The more detailed bit of information was a DC 30, defiantly possible but harder. None of the 6 of you had Knowledge (Planes)? Odd group, it is a common skill for someone to have in a PFS game.
Actually most of the errors, if they were not there would have made it more difficult, so they did not contribute.
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It was only a Diplomacy (Gather Information) DC 20 check to get the first bit of info about a "Demon" flying about, that should be easy for level 5s. The more detailed bit of information was a DC 30, defiantly possible but harder. None of the 6 of you had Knowledge (Planes)? Odd group, it is a common skill for someone to have in a PFS game.
Only one of the six pregens has this "common" skill. And even then a DC 30 check needs a roll of 17 or better.
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Only one of the six pregens has this "common" skill. And even then a DC 30 check needs a roll of 17 or better.
You misread my post...
The common Skill I was speaking of was Knowledge (planes) which the above poster said they did not have, which I was surprised about.
Though Diplomacy is a common skill as well, and the first target is 20, 30 was just more detail, and I admitted that would be more difficult to get, 20 is more then enough to get the first clue about "Demons".
On the Pregens
On Knowledge (Planes) Ezren can take 10 to figure out demons DR are mostly Good and Cold Iron.
And on the Diplomacy, Seelah could have taken 10 to to get the Hint.
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The common Skill I was speaking of was Knowledge (planes) which the above poster said they did not have, which I was surprised about.
Ah. Still, as I pointed out, there's only one pregen who has this skill.
But I agree with your major premise - that investigation beforehand can be key in how well a party will do in the final encounter.
Yep and that is Ezren. Our DM discourage me to take him and instead I took Valeros. I am not sure it was a good choice. Specially during the last encounter when my fighter become dominated and try to kill the other players and our paladin was suggested to go to find the guard...
A rogue, a sorcerer and a cleric against the succub and the fighter... oh and of course the iconic was the cleric, the paladin and the fighter, so the rogue has no cold iron dagger.
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The end boss for us was a long drawn out fight that they survived only because they had 2 healers keeping the heavy hitters on their feet and used good combat (flanking & Buffing) tactics. I think the level of experience at the table helped a lot.
In the end fight how did you get around ...
Our fighter was Dominated to fight the party, Our Pally (me) was Suggested to go get the guards, Our Rogue was Charmed to "Save me from the bad Wizard - he keeps attacking me!". Our Wiz did pretty well putting fear into our fighter but after that we were pretty much out of options"
The DC to dispel the Dominate was too high for our Wiz. As a consequence it was a little like a save or die fight.
And the teleport!!!
Be glad to hear how some others went
All in all it was a great time and we all had fun having our butts handed to us. Good game
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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<cynic> If this is an example of the level of 'Six member party' adventures in season 4, I'll be completing my collection of Season 3 and 2, thank you very much. </cynic>
As is, Ezren is fairly useless against the BBEG, he has fire spells, spells subject to SR, and she has high saves. Even Kyra, who I think is the *best* prepared to take on the succubus suffers from a) crappy touch AC and b) SR and saves. I played her and the biggest contribution I did was soaking damage from the dominated rogue and doing channels and heals to keep Seelah running.
The plot is good, but the last encounter, it's not a game it's just a rout.
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Playing this with a 5th cavalier, my 5th paladin, a 5th rogue, kyra and a 5th monk we got through pretty unscathed.
We spent 3 hours before we even started the mod (our poor GM [VC for Sydney] was thinking on his feet as we went all around Magnimar hunting information on cults) researching
We obliterated encounter 1 in the streets.
That made the trio the second encounter and our cav failed one save.
I stupidly gave my masterwork short sword to the poor cowering captive who I tried to give some confidence to through my paladin aura of courage. This lead to a death attack on kyra while we waited for the 'others' to come.
The battle didn't last particularly long after that. She failed to get her babau summon off. Came back tried to hurt us but instead got 'Paladin'd' by a katana crit for lots of damage. Then she took off, being the only one with a ranged weapon, I peppered her with arrows until she fled, much to the ire of a paladin of Iomedae.
All in all, I had an absolute blast playing the mod and running it.
Running the mod for a ranger 2/alchemist 4, sorcerer 4, ranger 4, kyra and merisiel:
Investigations went really well. I gave them some extra info from the background because they consulted with some dividers and paid through the teeth for it.
I told the party about the summoning of a large number of demons in the form of an au should the ritual be completed in an obscure divining way
They then set up for the first encounter, the ranger got full attacked by the nasty thing for standing on a roof and dropped. Other than that the ranger/alchemist brutalized the encounter even with DR.
The trio got off their nasty present once before being wiped.
Here the babau came into play and lasted longer than the Succubus. The death attack went off but was saved against and from there it didn't go well. Pure damage overwhelmed the Succubus and the babau didnt quite get his five rounds.
With built PCs my experience is probably blurred but I would definitely run and play it again.
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And while this is indeed one way for us to introduce people to Pathfinder... it's not the ONLY purpose Free RPG day serves for us, since the bulk of those who go to Free RPG day are probably NOT people who have never heard of RPGs or are trying to get into them for the first time. A product that appeals to established gamers is as important as an intro product—perhaps MORE important—for Free RPG day.
Whether or not making a super-short adventure to serve so many different masters worked or not... time will tell, I guess.
Well, as a GM who had signed up to run this on Free RPG Day, I'd appreciate just a little more guidance from Paizo. Am I supposed to be running this as an introductory module for new-to-RPG players, a taster of Pathfinder for experienced gamers, a PFS-sanctioned module for a typical game-day or convention table, or an "If at first you don't succeed, try, try, try again" scenario for Lair Assault or other System Mastery afficionados?
What guidance did you need? Its a module for 5th level characters.
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I see a lot of people posting blatantly incorrect rules interpretations on this module. I admit this module took a lot of work on my part to run. Many of the powers and abilities of the NPCs and PCs were things I had not had to deal with before.
But you know what I did? I spent the week leading up to the adventure studying the module, asking questions of my fellow GMs and my VC and creating copious notes on possible outcomes. I wanted to make this special event, well special.
And after that I still messed at least one thing up the first time I ran it. The second time I ran it went more smoothly.
Is there something to be said for having an easy straightforward module like We Be Goblins for Free RPG day? Sure, its certainly easier to run.
Is there also something to be said for a complicated and dangerous module that ends in a balls to the wall knock down drag out fight where the entire party can hear the shuffling step of the Grim Reaper? Hell yes there is, and that word is AWESOME.
Great story, great suspense, dangerous enemies and a BBEG that my players will never forget.
sveden,
You should write a review.
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We just finished the module 2 hours ago all six of us played the pregens and it was a TPK. I don't mind difficult games but I like to feel like I have a chance in a fight. The pregens are totally outclassed in the end fight. I felt like I was in a sealed cylinder slowly filling with water knowing there was nothing I could do about it.
After some more thought on the subject I realize the problems our group had was too many inexperience players at their class.
So I feel if we had a more experienced table we might have had a good shot at this module. It's a bad idea to run this as an introductory module to experience pathfinder, but as a society adventure the fact it's a 4-7 should tell you something. The pregens require very efficient management but smart EXPERIENCED players should be able to have a better than average chance of succeeding with 1 or 2 deaths.
Strictly from a player's perspective I enjoyed the module; I thought it was entertaining and well written...and certainly challenging.
The weak links were the pregenerated characters. While I don't necessarily expect them to be a stacked deck against the encounter, it would be nice if each character had something useful and dynamic to do both in and out of combat.
The print version of this module is now available for order.
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But you know what I did? I admit this module took a lot of work on my part to run. Many of the powers and abilities of the NPCs and PCs were things I had not had to deal with before. I spent the week leading up to the adventure studying the module, asking questions of my fellow GMs and my VC and creating copious notes on possible outcomes. I wanted to make this special event, well special.
You say that as if it's something unusual. I do that for anything I'm going to be running for the first time, not just for 'special' events.
It's precisely because I did that, and analysed the contributions that the pregens can make to the final encounter, that I was concerned. If the party don't do their homework, and just walk into the situation without adequate preparation, they aren't going to enjoy it. But even with good research (and a sound tactical battle plan), there are too many chances for failure. Is the party under-strength, and missing one of the more valuable pregens? Not good. Did the players pick the wrong optional enhancements to their pregens? That will make things trickier. But these are decisions that have to be taken blind, without any knowledge of just what the party should be preparing for.
With a well-rounded group of characters run by experienced players familiar with the Pathfinder rulebooks, and a well-thought-out plan, this could be an excellent experience. But if a GM has to spend significant time researching the powers and abilities of the PCs, it's a bit much to expect that a walk-up player will be able to replicate that effort in a few minutes.
As several other posts on this thread can attest, my concerns appear to have been justified.
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You say that as if it's something unusual. I do that for anything I'm going to be running for the first time, not just for 'special' events.
I wasn't speaking directly to you when I wrote my second post on this page. So please don't think I am accusing you specifically of not taking the time to prepare.
The post before, however, I was speaking directly to you. Do you have an answer to my direct question? Also why did you put quotes around special?
With a well-rounded group of characters run by experienced players familiar with the Pathfinder rulebooks, and a well-thought-out plan, this could be an excellent experience. But if a GM has to spend significant time researching the powers and abilities of the PCs, it's a bit much to expect that a walk-up player will be able to replicate that effort in a few minutes.
As several other posts on this thread can attest, my concerns appear to have been justified.
That is your opinion. To imply that only one or two of the pregens is useful in this module is incorrect.
Most, if not all, of the Pregens have ways to exploit the chinks in this modules' armor. Its up to the players to utilize them.
Do I think that a group of entirely new to pen and paper RPGs players will struggle with this module? Yes.
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There are some issues with Avalexi
** spoiler omitted **
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Had a go at putting Avalexi together in herolab
OUCH CR 8
Female Demon, Succubus Assassin 2
CE Medium Outsider (Chaotic, Demon, Evil, Extraplanar)
Init +5; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +21
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DEFENSE
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AC 26, touch 15, flat-footed 21. . (+4 armor, +5 Dex, +7 natural)
hp 133 (8d10+2d8+80)
Fort +10, Ref +12, Will +11
Defensive Abilities Uncanny Dodge; DR 10/good or cold iron; Immune electricity, fire, poison; Resist +1 Save Bonus against Poison, acid 10, cold 10, fire 10; SR 18
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OFFENSE
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Spd 30 ft., Flight (50 feet, Average)
Melee Claw x2 (Demon, Succubus) +14 x2 (1d6+2/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +14/+9 (1d3+2/20/x2)
Special Attacks Death Attack (DC 15), Sneak Attack +1d6
Spell-Like Abilities Charm Monster (At will), Detect Good (Constant), Detect Thoughts (At will), Dominate Person (1/day), Ethereal Jaunt (self plus 50 lbs. of objects only), Suggestion (At will), Summon (level 3, 1 babau 50%) (1/day), Teleport, Greater (self plus 50 lbs. of objects on, Tongues (Constant), Vampiric Touch (At will)
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STATISTICS
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Str 15, Dex 21, Con 24, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 29
Base Atk +9; CMB +14; CMD 26
Feats Agile Maneuvers, Assassin Weapon Proficiencies, Combat Reflexes (6 AoO/round), Iron Will, Toughness +10, Weapon Finesse
Skills Bluff +29, Diplomacy +21, Disguise +20, Escape Artist +16, Fly +18, Intimidate +20, Knowledge (Local) +14, Perception +21, Sense Motive +13, Stealth +16, Use Magic Device +14
Languages Abyssal, Celestial, Common, Draconic; Telepathy (100 feet)
SQ Change Shape (Small/Medium humanoid; alter self) (Su), Energy Drain (DC 24) (Su), Poison Use, Profane Gift (Su), Ring of Counterspells
Combat Gear +1 Glamered Studded Leather; Other Gear Ring of Counterspells, Wand of Flame Blade
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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+1 Save Bonus against Poison +1 bonus to saves vs Poison.
Agile Maneuvers Use DEX instead of STR for CMB
Change Shape (Small/Medium humanoid; alter self) (Su) You can change your form.
Combat Reflexes (6 AoO/round) You may make up to 6 attacks of opportunity per round, and may make them while flat-footed.
Damage Reduction (10/cold iron or good) You have Damage Reduction against all except Good or Cold Iron attacks.
Damage Resistance, Acid (10) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Acid attacks.
Damage Resistance, Cold (10) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Cold attacks.
Damage Resistance, Fire (10) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Fire attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Death Attack (DC 15) (Ex) You can kill or render a target helpless for 1d6+2 rounds with a prepared sneak attack.
Energy Drain (DC 24) (Su) A succubus drains energy from a mortal she lures into an act of passion, such as a kiss. An unwilling victim must be grappled before the succubus can use this ability. The succubus's kiss bestows one negative level. The kiss also has the effect of a
Flight (50 feet, Average) You can fly!
Immunity to Electricity You are immune to electricity damage.
Immunity to Fire You are immune to fire damage.
Immunity to Poison You are immune to poison.
Poison Use You don't accidentally poison yourself with blades.
Profane Gift (Su) Once per day as a full-round action, a succubus may grant a profane gift to a willing humanoid creature by touching it for 1 full round. The target gains a +2 profane bonus to an ability score of his choice. A single creature may have no more than on
Ring of Counterspells This ring might seem to be a ring of spell storing upon first examination. However, while it allows a single spell of 1st through 6th level to be cast into it, that spell cannot be cast out of the ring again. Instead, should that spell ever be cast upon the wearer, the spell is immediately countered, as a counterspell action, requiring no action (or even knowledge) on the wearer's part. Once so used, the spell cast within the ring is gone. A new spell (or the same one as before) may be placed in it again.
Moderate evocation; CL 11th; Forge Ring, imbue with spell ability; Price 4,000 gp.
Sneak Attack +1d6 +1d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Spell Resistance (18) You have Spell Resistance.
Telepathy (100 feet) (Su) Communicate telepathically if the target has a language.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex) Retain Dex bonus to AC when flat-footed.
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You say that as if it's something unusual. I do that for anything I'm going to be running for the first time, not just for 'special' events.I wasn't speaking directly to you when I wrote my second post on this page. So please don't think I am accusing you specifically of not taking the time to prepare.
The post before, however, I was speaking directly to you. Do you have an answer to my direct question? Also why did you put quotes around special?
The answer to your direct question was already present it the post of mine to which you replied (and which you quoted in your post).
I put quotes around special because I didn't see this as in any way different from any other module/scenario, except for the expected player make-up at the table.With a well-rounded group of characters run by experienced players familiar with the Pathfinder rulebooks, and a well-thought-out plan, this could be an excellent experience. But if a GM has to spend significant time researching the powers and abilities of the PCs, it's a bit much to expect that a walk-up player will be able to replicate that effort in a few minutes.
As several other posts on this thread can attest, my concerns appear to have been justified.
That is your opinion. To imply that only one or two of the pregens is useful in this module is incorrect.
Most, if not all, of the Pregens have ways to exploit the chinks in this modules' armor. Its up to the players to utilize them.
I have not implied only one or two of the pregens is useful. I have stated (and posted analysis of the characters to back up the statement) that most of the pregens are borderline ineffective in simple combat (so the players need to come up with some other strategy), and that some of the most useful options available to the pregens are dependent on players having made the right choice of optional equipment.
Even with good tactical choices, the party need good luck on the dice; for some of the choices they need the BBEG to fail a saving throw that isn't all that likely. Meanwhile there are several options available to the BBEG that are far more likely to succeed.
Do I think that a group of entirely new to pen and paper RPGs players will struggle with this module? Yes.
Players familiar with tabletop RPGs, though not with the innermost details of Pathfinder, are quite likely to have a hard time finding the right exploits too. I think this is a significant problem for a module that is more likely than most to end up at just such a table.
To be fair, Free RPG Day modules do walk a fine line between being both beginner friendly as well as interesting for experienced players. I applaud Paizo for giving us a 5th level adventure as opposed to what would have amounted to a redux of Master of the Fallen Fortress.
Potential minor errors notwithstanding this was a well written adventure that was saddled with pregens that could have been better than what they were. Some were passable enough...but others were just plain awful.
There are some issues with Avalexi
** spoiler omitted **
Regarding Avalexi:
I put a lot of work into this in advance, since I wasn't sure whether I'd have brand new players or not. I spelled out virtually every ability I thought would come into play with a line or two, trusting that I could fill in the rest. I was very lenient on my rulings, trusting that I could sort out corner case scenarios. The party still needed to be lucky to survive:
All in all we had fun- but it's easy to see how this adventure could fall apart quickly without a lot of GM prep and an open mind to letting the party win.
Possibly veering off-topic...
I am toying with the idea to run this module as a drop-in between Edge of Anarchy and Seven Days to the Grave (CoCT AP).
Problem is, the status of Sarenrite worship in Korvosa is a tad... different to where the adventure is supposed to take place.
Does anyone have good advice how to patch things up?
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From what I read the differences in party survival come (in part) from DM approach to the final event.
Given how our encounter went I marvel that parties actually got a chance to go toe to toe with her.
A very fun adventure though and a great time to be had.
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I just read through this and it sounds interesting, I'm excited to try it out.
The one thing I'm not keen on so far is the propaganda. It feels like the whole purpose of putting the module out was to sell minis. I really hope the mini-pictures gimmick isn't going to find its way into other published products (even if they have a set--please don't taint the new Rise of the Runelords with this!). Really not a fan of the tacky sales attempt.