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This kind of comment comes up a lot, and maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see this happening in this instance.Have you seen the aftermarket pricing for some of the popular Heroscape stuff? It is through the roof. Since these were non-random, the hot miniatures were snapped up at the Targets and Walmarts leaving less desirable miniatures to sit unsold.
Paizo will be producing the Adventure Packs in a non-random format. I guess time will tell whether Paizo and other retailers will be sitting on any of this product.
In this case, Paizo themselves is entering the aftermarket by opening the boxes and selling singles themselves at a (hopefully small) premium. None of the other manufacturers did this.
Technically Paizo is not the manufacturer, Wizkids makes the miniatures. However, with the Pathfinder logo and many of the miniatures using Pathfinder designs, Paizo will get a well deserved leg up on other retailers. But they will buy random cases just like other retailers, and burst boosters to sell individual miniatures.
In essence, until they just aren't actually manufacturered anymore, it's really Paizo who will set the aftermarket price, not the likes of ebay, etc.
As I understand it, this is not how it works. Wizkids will have an order to manufacture X number of miniatures for this one set. Once this run or printing is done it is done. Wizkids will then gear up the manufacturing process for the next set. So you will be dealing with X number of cases of boosters for the Heroes and Monsters set. Once they are all sold they are gone. Now Paizo/Wizkids could order another printing, but that could be a big IF.
Retailers including Paizo that burst boosters to sell miniatures individually will initially set the market price. But after that the marketplace will begin to determine the aftermarket pricing for these miniatures. I predict the Succubus could sell in the $30.00US+ range or higher. If you don't get a Black Dragon with a case purchase, I don't want to think what that puppy could sell for in the aftermarkets.
Bottom-line the Random format is the best format to prevent unsold product. Even Paizo will not know exactly what is in the cases they open.
Later,
Mazra-
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Haven't we been asked to stop arguing about Paizo's business policies?Not exactly... we've asked that you keep the discussion specific to the product in this thread. You can feel free to discuss our policies regarding the Pathfinder Battles line over in the Paizo Licensed Products forum... and by the way, there's already a thread over there for suggestions for future minis.
Sorry about that Mr. Wertz! Geez, can't I do anything right?
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I think it's a great idea putting out a minis set named after the Rise of the Runelords adventure path. There may be some people who buy the minis and discover (or rediscover) the adventure path as a result. Great cross-marketing.
It also suggests names for sets every six months or so...Curse of the Crimson Throne, Second Darkness, etc. (or maybe every four months or so...so that you can catch up to adventure paths...yes).
I would hope that if WizKids and Paizo did something like this, we would see figures straight from the various Bestiaries mixed with figures that uniquely represent the particular adventure path they're named after. I hope there's a balance in each set, so it isn't just full of unique figures.
Sorry about that Mr. Wertz! Geez, can't I do anything right?
Don't worry! We love you. :)
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I think it's a great idea putting out a minis set named after the Rise of the Runelords adventure path. There may be some people who buy the minis and discover (or rediscover) the adventure path as a result. Great cross-marketing.
It also suggests names for sets every six months or so...Curse of the Crimson Throne, Second Darkness, etc. (or maybe every four months or so...so that you can catch up to adventure paths...yes).
I would hope that if WizKids and Paizo did something like this, we would see figures straight from the various Bestiaries mixed with figures that uniquely represent the particular adventure path they're named after. I hope there's a balance in each set, so it isn't just full of unique figures.
I would expect that if they go for AP themed sets regularly, they'll probably aim closer to the present release schedlue. RotR is only coming out to match with the rerelease as far as I can see.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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While I know that goblin and skeleton encounter packs would be winners, I would suggest that a Summon Monster series would be extremely useful (especially the lower level spells).
This is a very good idea. It may take us several sets to get all of the summon monster critters out there, but once that has been done a collection like this would be invaluable.
Wow 23 pages of what I can only assume are high fives and shouts of "Hell yes!"
Ha! If only.
But I think you might have meant that a bit tongue in cheek. ;-)
This is really great news. It was disappointing when the DDM sets came to an end. I can't wait to see the full set list and photos of the miniatures.
The only criticism I have is the 1 mini per box. Which based on an earlier post will change in the next set.
We do not currently have any concrete plans regarding a separate miniatures game. Is that something you'd like to see?
Yes. I think it would be a missed opportunity if a separate game wasn't developed.
While the biggest audience for these miniatures will be RPG players, the increase in sales from a separate game would be to everyone’s benefit and hopefully help this miniatures line continue for a long time.
The DDM sets made the mistake of basing some of the set list and rarity decisions on the skirmish game rules. As long as the pathfinder sets are designed with the RPG in mind first and then the miniature game, the same problems shouldn't occur.
Another problem with the DDM skirmish game was the change of rules when 4ED arrived. Effectively splitting the community for that game and eventually leading to its discontinuation.
As long as the minis game isn't a hastily put together afterthought, it should help the miniatures line in the long-term. Maybe even releasing the rules as a beta first and getting community feedback/play testing, as that has worked so well for Paizo.
Also since there are already plans to release some non-random boxes between sets, releasing a "starter" set for the miniatures game could be dual purpose. By carefully choosing miniatures that people want multiples of, and including the rules for the separate game.
At its height DDM skirmish had a respectable following, so I’m guessing there is a gap in the market for a new game to take its place and for Paizo to reach to new customers.
Color me interested... If I can get my hands on a case here in faraway Belgium I probably will. Shipping overseas will cost way too much in taxes. Glad to see the gap DDM left filled with these.
I'll probably skip Heroclix to buy the PF Minis.
And please keep releasing hero packs as well (4ish PPP boxes) with new player chars (Lem etc ;-)
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While I know that goblin and skeleton encounter packs would be winners, I would suggest that a Summon Monster series would be extremely useful (especially the lower level spells).This is a very good idea. It may take us several sets to get all of the summon monster critters out there, but once that has been done a collection like this would be invaluable.
Yay!
While I may have picked up on the suggestion from somewhere else, if this happens it will be the 3rd Paizo (or in this case, Paizo-ish) product to come out which I put on the boards :)
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I just pre-ordered a case.
I still am against randomness but since it is highly likely according to the description I suppose in a way it wont be random...in a way.....round about way...with a strange way looking at it but yea hope the quality is as good as the sample pictures.
Sean
It's chaos... But ORGANIZED chaos!
:-)
Wow 23 pages of what I can only assume are high fives and shouts of "Hell yes!"
That's exactly how it went - except for all the rage.
To this day I have more warforged minis then gnomes or halflings and I don't even own an Eberron book.
But that's not (well, not only) because they have a metal boner for warforged (personally, I'm not against robots, but they work better as a supporting feature rather than the main attraction), but because they hate gnomes.
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It's chaos... But ORGANIZED chaos!
:-)
I prefer Systematic Chaos.
New sculpt pictures came in to HQ here and they look amazing! Chimera problem solved. Not sure when we will be able to show pics to y'all though.I have removed the old pic.
Is there a current picture of the Chimera up somewhere?
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Is there a current picture of the Chimera up somewhere?New sculpt pictures came in to HQ here and they look amazing! Chimera problem solved. Not sure when we will be able to show pics to y'all though.I have removed the old pic.
Nope. The picture we had up wasn't up to snuff, so it got snuffed. And a new Chimera will replace it. I have seen pictures of the wax sculpt and it is AMAZING. But we aren't ready to show it off. Yet. :)
-Lisa
Nope. The picture we had up wasn't up to snuff, so it got snuffed. And a new Chimera will replace it. I have seen pictures of the wax sculpt and it is AMAZING. But we aren't ready to show it off. Yet. :)
-Lisa
Thanks Lisa, that also explains why I can't find the old one that I knew had seen. Good to know that I wasn't hallucinating!
While I have your attention, is that really the color scheme that WizKids is going with for the Gnome Fighter? A bit Leprechaun-ish don't you think? Other than that one, I'm loving what's been shown so far, I can't wait to see more and hoping to pick up a case.
This is awesome. And now that I'm caught up, here's what I'd like to see:
Swarms. 5x5 swarms, not those annoying 10x10 ones.
Huge and gargantuan creatures.
Daemons, demons, devils and qlippoth.
Elementals, especially big ones.
Lots of Lovecraftian creatures, especially huge shoggoths.
Familiars, like bats, birds, etc.
Stirges.
Vermin, lots of vermin.
The reality is, it'd be cool to eventually have all of the creatures from the Bestiaries, etc.
And let's have none of the foolishness with made-up monsters. I got SO tired of all those bluescale this and blackscale that garbage.
While I have your attention, is that really the color scheme that WizKids is going with for the Gnome Fighter? A bit Leprechaun-ish don't you think?
He's the cover-boy from Gnomes of Golarion.
He's the cover-boy from Gnomes of Golarion.
Fair enough, question withdrawn. =)
He's the cover-boy from Gnomes of Golarion.
While I have your attention, is that really the color scheme that WizKids is going with for the Gnome Fighter? A bit Leprechaun-ish don't you think?
And originally appeared in Seeker of Secrets as illustration for one of the prestige classes there.
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At first I wasn't too keen to pay 270+ Dollars for minis all at once. Then I realised I got more than 100 Minis for that at the amazing price of 2.7 Dollars each !!
Wahooo.
Good thing and bad thing we have to wait till December to save the cash.
Good
I can save some cash my wife is going to kill me (WHAT ? YOU PAID 300 DOLLARS FOR THIS BOX OF PLASTIC SOLDIERS ? lol )
Bad
I HAVE TO WAIT TILL THEN !
Question :
Is the black dragon included within the price ?
When I put it in preorder I can't get the 15% of subscribers (Well I'm not a subscriber yet but that would push me to become an AP subscriber). So is it normal ?
ANYWAY I LOVE IT. And I love the randomized thing also. I got plenty of metal figs than i can't be asked to paint... Call me lazy ... or a busy man ;o)
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As far as we know, the black dragon is not included in the price. It will be something that is available later for purchase to people who purchased a case, and maybe others.
If you are an AP subscriber you get the 15% pathfinder advantage discount, which brings the price to $233.74. You also get a 10 dollar discount on shipping because you will be spending $100 or more.
Thanks Grotnar !
Wonder how much it will cost though. ;o).The shipping price is horrible to Europe... ;o(
Yes, I'm on subscription for the Pathfinder books and generally they manage to get to South Africa fine. But I don't trust the shipping for a case or brick. I'll have to look into one of the few game stores if they can reliably get me one.
Also, more information on the black dragon would be welcome. How exactly is it obtainable, at what cost. Separate shipping? etc... :)
I’ve never really bought WizKids minis before, but I assume they have released huge sized mins?
The reason I ask, is one of annoyances from the DDM line for me was it seemed at times the base of the huge minis were warped or bowed slightly. I think it was because the base was not thick or strong enough for the mini that was sitting on it. I hope WizKids has handled huge minis better than that, and will do so for the Pathfinder line. I would be willing to take a heavier mini and pay a bit more money to have thicker base so it remains flat.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I’ve never really bought WizKids minis before, but I assume they have released huge sized mins?
The reason I ask, is one of annoyances from the DDM line for me was it seemed at times the base of the huge minis were warped or bowed slightly. I think it was because the base was not thick or strong enough for the mini that was sitting on it. I hope WizKids has handled huge minis better than that, and will do so for the Pathfinder line. I would be willing to take a heavier mini and pay a bit more money to have thicker base so it remains flat.
The Mage Knight dragons chariots and a couple of others would count as "Huge", but they were on clicky bases.
The Mage Knight dragons chariots and a couple of others would count as "Huge", but they were on clicky bases.
From what I recall the bases for MageKnight were thicker due to the rotating bases. I would be ok with that thickness of a base for the huge minis on Pathfinder, if it prevented any warping or bowing on the base, of course minus the rotating and ‘clicky’ design.
As far as we know, the black dragon is not included in the price. It will be something that is available later for purchase to people who purchased a case, and maybe others.
If you are an AP subscriber you get the 15% pathfinder advantage discount, which brings the price to $233.74. You also get a 10 dollar discount on shipping because you will be spending $100 or more.
Thanks Grotnar !
Wonder how much it will cost though. ;o).The shipping price is horrible to Europe... ;o(
Here are my calculations for getting a whole case to Denmark, posted earlier in this thread (page 15). I don't know what the toll and VAT numbers are for France (I assume you're from France, based on your profile), so adjust for that. You can always add the order to your shopping cart and go almost all the way through check-out, that'll give you the shipping cost too.
If I buy a case of the new miniatures (going with the average of 108 miniatures) that'll cost me (including shipping, toll (4.27%), VAT (25%) and a steep fee for paying the toll and VAT ($30.27)) a total of $384.48 (DKK 2,032.-).
That's an average of $3.56 per miniature (which also includes the large miniatures).
Edit: The above calculations include my Pathfinder Advantage discount.
HEY! Where's my love? I want to be loved, too!Sorry about that Mr. Wertz! Geez, can't I do anything right?Don't worry! We love you. :)
I think you just cost yourself a job at the hatecrime ministry or wherever you fascists work at in Cheliax.
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Nope. The picture we had up wasn't up to snuff, so it got snuffed. And a new Chimera will replace it. I have seen pictures of the wax sculpt and it is AMAZING. But we aren't ready to show it off. Yet. :)-Lisa
Hi Lisa,
Any other digital sculpt out there to whet our appetites? Maybe a Goblin! :)
Later,
Mazra
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All of the goblins in this set are practical sculpts, and we have not shown any of those off yet. They look amazing, though.
Can't Wait! But I guess I will have to. A few more previews will be nice. But not the whole set. It is nice to have surprises too.
So far I am guessing all the miniatures reviewed are rares except the Dire Rat, which is maybe a common. If you do give us a few more sneek peeks, the rarity would be appreciated.
Thanks for the responses,
Mazra
All of the goblins in this set are practical sculpts, and we have not shown any of those off yet. They look amazing, though.
For someone who is not really familiar with the process (like myself), but what is the difference between digital and practical sculpting and what is involved with them?
For someone who is not really familiar with the process (like myself), but what is the difference between digital and practical sculpting and what is involved with them?
A digital sculpt is created on a computer in a 3D modeling package. Basically it's all CGI and usually a physical master is created from that model, often using 3D printer technology.
A practical sculpt is traditional... hand-made master.
For someone who is not really familiar with the process (like myself), but what is the difference between digital and practical sculpting and what is involved with them?A digital sculpt is created on a computer in a 3D modeling package. Basically it's all CGI and usually a physical master is created from that model, often using 3D printer technology.
A practical sculpt is traditional... hand-made master.
Ok, thanks.
I had figured the practical dealt with the traditional, hand made sculpting, but I really wasn’t sure what was involved with the digital, except the fact that it dealt with using a computer.
From what I had heard in prior posts, the quality is supposed to be a lot higher with the minis, in both painting and sculpting, with going the digital route. I hope they end up doing so for all the miniatures in the sets if that is the case.
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All of the goblins in this set are practical sculpts, and we have not shown any of those off yet. They look amazing, though.
New board rule: Whenever you guys tease us like that, you have to show us something new!
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The PPMs look great so I just pre ordered a case. One suggestion that I would make is to consider adding one of those "clicky bases" to each mini indicating the PFRPG combat condition. Shouldn't be a big deal for Wizkids right?? I'd even buy packs of blank click bases to mount my painted character and other minis on just for game play. Just an idea . . .
The PPMs look great so I just pre ordered a case. One suggestion that I would make is to consider adding one of those "clicky bases" to each mini indicating the PFRPG combat condition. Shouldn't be a big deal for Wizkids right?? I'd even buy packs of blank click bases to mount my painted character and other minis on just for game play. Just an idea . . .
Honestly that's a cool idea but it won't fly. The reason being, the bases would no longer be 1" so they wouldn't fit the standard they're made for and Paizo's many maps (and the industry standard overall) is 1" squares...
*Edit: because I said honestly twice in the same sentance, and it was honestly stupid to read. Honestly*
All of the goblins in this set are practical sculpts, and we have not shown any of those off yet. They look amazing, though.New board rule: Whenever you guys tease us like that, you have to show us something new!
Or I start sending pictures of Lion's Tap burgers!
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You had me until you added commonalities. That serves no purpose. This isnt a Collectible mini game, its just collectible minis.
Why? this isnt a game. Unless......
Anyway, I'll buy what I want on the aftermarket and save a ton of money.
You understand that the very aftermarket you plan on going to is the reason that commonalities exist, right?
Say you have a three-mini set (for the sake of simplification). You have a lich, a goblin, and a human rogue.
Let's say you manufacture equal numbers of each - so 100 liches, 100 goblins, 100 human rogues.
Let's say you have a Typical DM. Typical DM wants ten goblins (because encounters call for hordes of goblins), five human rogues (because having a few human rogues on hand is a good idea), and one lich (because liches are practically an entire encounter unto themselves, and you'll probably never see more than one at a time).
Let's say you have 20 Typical DMs, and they go to the aftermarket to buy exactly what they're looking for: 10 goblins, 5 rogues, and 1 lich each.
They get their liches, no problem. 20 liches are bought, and the aftermarket retailer has 80 liches left, and he will never get rid of them because no one needs more than one lich.
They get their rogues, just barely. They all have exactly the number of rogues they want, and the aftermarket retailer has sold through his stock.
They don't get their goblins, because there are only 100 goblins to go around and all of the DMs combined need 200. The aftermarket retailer knows that goblins are going to be in demand, so he raises the price.
The end result?
The aftermarket retailer has 80 liches he will never sell, and your Typical DM only has a 50% chance of getting the goblins he wants, and he's forced to pay exorbitant prices for them because there aren't enough to go around.
This is what happens when your set doesn't use varying commonalities. If you did use commonalities, you could manufacture 200...
Actually I would argue that it doesn't work like that. Using your example, what would happen is that the manufacturer would have a fair idea that their customers are likely to buy quite a few goblins, some rogues, but very few liches. They would then take that into account when they made the minis.
So the manufacturer would produce a heap of goblin minis, a reasonable amount of rogue minis and a smaller amount of liche minis. Here is where the economics come into it though.
From all reports, manufacturing pre-painted minis have a large fixed cost attached to each different mini you make. This is because, for each one, you have to pay for the sculpt, the production mold (very expensive for plastics), the painted master copy, etc. The variable cost (i.e. basically the plastic, paint, packaging and handling costs for each mini) is not that high in comparison.
Given that there are high fixed costs and smaller variable costs, the more of each mini you can sell, the lower you can price them and still make a profit.
Let's assume that the fixed costs are $1,000 per mini (totally unrealistic, I know) and the variable costs are $1 per mini.
If you make 10 minis then it costs $101 per mini.
If you make 50 minis then it costs $21 per mini.
If you make 100 minis then it costs $11 per mini.
If you make 200 minis then it costs $6 per mini.
If you make 1,000 minis then it costs $2 per mini.
With a non-random method a manufacturer would make roughly as many minis as they thought they could sell.
As DM's want multiple Goblin minis they would make 1,000 of them (just a number I have plucked out of the air for this example), be able to sell them at a low price and still make a profit.
There may be reasonable demand for Rogues so they would manufacture 200. However, they would have to charge 3 times as much for them compared to the Goblin minis just to cover their costs.
There may be small demand for Liches so the manufacturer is left with a problem. Let's assume the manufacturer guesses there is demand for about 50 Liches. In order to cover costs the Liches would need to be sold at $21 per mini.
At that price there may be people that want a Liche mini, but they aren't willing to pay $21 for one. The manufacturer can't afford to sell it for less than $21 per mini as they need to at least cover the cost of producing the mini. So all the Liche minis remain unsold at that price.
There are 2 options available to the manufacturer at this point. Either they make 100 of the Liche mini and hopes they underestimated the demand or they simply don't make a Liche mini.
If they decide to make 100 of the Liche mini there is still a risk that not all the minis sell and they make a loss on that mini. They also probably have to deal with people complaining that $11 per mini is too much for just a Liche.
As a result most businesses would take the safe option and simply not make the Liche mini.
The other option is to go with random minis. Since the consumer can't see what mini is in the box the manufacturer can effectively sell a Liche mini to someone who doesn't actually want a Liche mini. Increasing the sales of those minis with smaller demand enables them to create a wider range of minis than would be profitable using a non-random model.
The problem with random minis is that some people will refuse to buy them and others will complain about the random distribution.
So you're damned if you do and damned if you don't really.
Olaf the Stout