Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Rival Guide (PFRPG)

Sounds like a NPC bestiary from level 1 to 20, about time, I use low level NPCs more often, but I can make a low level NPC in 5 minutes, a high level NPC takes 50 minutes. I have to purchase it, I don't know why it is a Golarion book instead of a generic PFRPG book, but it isn't a problem for me.

I have to purchase it, I don't know why it is a Golarion book instead of a generic PFRPG book, but it isn't a problem for me.

It is a Golarion book so they could have rich backgrounds for each NPC. That's hard to do in a vacuum. On the other hand, it is easy enough to transplant them into another world. Which most Golarion content is designed to do.

It is also a Golarion book because it clearly doesn't fit in the only line that has generic content: the rules line which contains 256 page hardcovers. A 64 page book of NPCs can only fit in the campaign setting line.

Of course if they do a generic hardcover book on high level play, I would expect a good section of NPC stat blocks like the Game Master Guide had.

I have to purchase it, I don't know why it is a Golarion book instead of a generic PFRPG book, but it isn't a problem for me.

One reason: So we can give the NPCs fun backgrounds.

Another reason: Because supporting our campaign world with material that it can use is important to us.

Yet another reason: We have 3 opportunities to do books a year in the RPG book line, but 12 opportunities a year to do books in the Campaign Setting line. If we have more than 3 ideas for a book, turns out that some of those ideas go beyond the RPG book line.

Reading through thoroughly now. This is really, really nice stuff.

Good God, the Marrow Reavers.

Reading through thoroughly now. This is really, really nice stuff.

Good God, the Marrow Reavers.

Glad you like :D

Well...let's just say that many people have noticed certain horror icons showing up in Carrion Crown so far...

i.e., ghosts for the Haunting of Harrowstone, the Frankenstein monster for the Trial of the Beast, werewolves in Broken Moon, Cthulu-esque horrors in Wake of the Watcher, vampires in Ashes at Dawn, etc. But there's another horror "icon" absent from the AP. I did my best to include him in the Rival Guide...and he's a member of the Night Harrows. ;-)

Another teasing two cents,
--Neil--

Hmmm, I've looked, but I can't say I see hi......Aaaargh! Get off!

Good God, the Marrow Reavers.

Of course, Todd -you know when Mikaze says that, what he's really saying is "Good God, what happened to the Marrow Reavers? What did the Dust Coven do to them??? Is that a HEAD or a bloody cabbage? *choke*"

Just thought I'd clear that up. The rest of the rival groups are already doomed, and you'll never even see who did it.

Then they're coming after the other authors. =-)

The rest of the rival groups are already doomed, and you'll never even see who did it.

I'm not worried in the slightest.

Which group is written with Rise of the Runelords in mind?

The Kneecappers seem like they'd fit right in, though I'm not sure what kind of success they'd have in their chosen goal.

I assume they hunt 'giants' in the general sense, as I can imagine them taking on a small group of ogres. Anything larger than that, and they'd be a red smear on the rock...

Why, picking people off one-by-one is the Dust Coven's specialty! Since they live on the Plane of Shadow, they've got it pretty easy at only showing up when they need to get the job done.

That puny harrower will never survive Xeyog's vicious barrage of arrows that slam into her body after he steps from their adopted home plane and turns her into a undead-bloodline-sorcerer-harrower pincushion. While the rest of your party argues over whether to raise her as a skeleton or a zombie, the dark elf rogue Zelfane casually walks through the crowd, removes his ring of retribution, and drops it at his own feet right behind them, confident in the fact that he'll survive the blast unscathed while dropping that priestess with a few more slices among the lingering flames and seared flesh of the surrounding crowd. Victory never smelled so sweet.

Xeyog loves stalking elusive prey, too, and that invisible assassin might give him an hour's entertainment...but Xeyog just hates humans, and your boy might be invisible, but he still stinks something awful, so it won't be long before Xeyog picks up his scent and he's just an invisible pool of blood, a few drag marks, and a bloody pile of arrows.

As for your vampire? My hag witch and drider cleric of Shax just love a new boy-toy. But, they get bored easily, too, so he might last the night after they've commanded him to shift form from bat to wolf to vampire about 6 thousand times like a Bugs Bunny routine. (Try the 4:55 mark)

"La dee da da da daa, la dee da da la da dee la abracadaaaabraaaa...

La dee da da da daa, la dee da da la da dee la hocus pooooocuus..."

Cute. Sadly misguided. But cute.

This looks similar to the Faction Guide, which is probably my favorite book to come out last year, so I'm looking forward to snatching it up!

This looks similar to the Faction Guide, which is probably my favorite book to come out last year, so I'm looking forward to snatching it up!

It's as good as Faction Guide, if not better.

It's as good as Faction Guide, if not better.

You tease me with your teasing! Ooh! It's 'go to the comic book shop day,' I hope they have it!

Cute. Sadly misguided. But cute.

I see a PaizoCon fight in the near future.:)

Mikaze wrote:

Good God, the Marrow Reavers.

Of course, Todd -you know when Mikaze says that, what he's really saying is "Good God, what happened to the Marrow Reavers? What did the Dust Coven do to them??? Is that a HEAD or a bloody cabbage? *choke*"

Just thought I'd clear that up. The rest of the rival groups are already doomed, and you'll never even see who did it.

Then they're coming after the other authors. =-)

Oh yeah, well the Kneecappers have a +1 weapon. That's right, a +1 bardiche!!! So yeah, that's right, you better run! Don't mess with those girls or they will mess YOU up and stuff, Mr. Dusty McDusterson.

So there! :P

Gorbacz wrote:

Which group is written with Rise of the Runelords in mind?

The Kneecappers seem like they'd fit right in, though I'm not sure what kind of success they'd have in their chosen goal.

I assume they hunt 'giants' in the general sense, as I can imagine them taking on a small group of ogres. Anything larger than that, and they'd be a red smear on the rock...

Not necessarily. Giants are humanoids now, with fairly crummy Ref and Will saves. A little hold person, create pit, color spray, or an illusionary diversion to knock them off their game and a bum rush attack probably could take down a lone hill giant or a troll without too much danger.

That's probably pushing the limit tho. :)

Please please please release the pictures in an art gallery so I can print them out and use them as character pictures.

Zelfane Vexidyre is amazingly hot and there needs to be more art like him.

How come Paizo doesn't have a gallery like WotC did for all their book art? Especially when Paizo's stuff is so much better...

How come Paizo doesn't have a gallery like WotC did for all their book art? Especially when Paizo's stuff is so much better...

Lots of reasons. One of them being that we're nowhere near as big as WotC and don't have the resources to manage a website as big as theirs. Another is that we value our art a LOT, and "giving it away for free on the web" is something that, beyond our blog (which is already QUITE generous with the free art), we generally don't like doing.

Please please please release the pictures in an art gallery so I can print them out and use them as character pictures.

At the very least they are a must for the next set of Face cards added to the schedule.

Absolutely superb job - well done to everyone who wrote / illustrated this book.

Great NPCs, plot hooks, new spells, magic items...

What's not to like?

Bravo.

...a bunch of threatening stuff...

Zelfane Vexidyre is amazingly hot and there needs to be more art like him.

There's a few I may have to show to Mrs Snorter, I'd agree.

I have to say I really love this product.

Holy Moly! Just picked this up today. The art for the NPCs is fantastic! A majority of the NPCs are drawn in a much more natural way which is a nice change of pace and really adds a nice touch of realism to this book. Well done (and hire those artists again, please).

I first want to say I basically love this book. Second making blocks of statistics and powers is not my problem, coming up with interesting characters and stories that are not 1 dimensional is, I envy good script writers which is why I buy product. I know it's a GM's job to flesh things out......but a 20th level cleric who is basically described simply as a bully who graduated to better foes? That's it? For a 20th level character? I like the crunch being worked out, but just a little more interesting fluff would be nice too..

Brandon Hodge wrote:

Mikaze wrote:

Good God, the Marrow Reavers.

Of course, Todd -you know when Mikaze says that, what he's really saying is "Good God, what happened to the Marrow Reavers? What did the Dust Coven do to them??? Is that a HEAD or a bloody cabbage? *choke*"

Just thought I'd clear that up. The rest of the rival groups are already doomed, and you'll never even see who did it.

Then they're coming after the other authors. =-)

Oh yeah, well the Kneecappers have a +1 weapon. That's right, a +1 bardiche!!! So yeah, that's right, you better run! Don't mess with those girls or they will mess YOU up and stuff, Mr. Dusty McDusterson.

So there! :P

Dusty is right! Go Kneecappers! Go!

I have to say I love this book. I love using the rival adventuring band in my games. Heck I usualy include in most of my games 2 or 3 rival adventuring bands. But I love reading the backgrounds of these and they will all see use in my games.

Now if you guys ever decide to do another one of these books( and I think they would be enough interest for another one) I would love to contribute some of my older NPCs rival groups to it. Heck I probably have enough for another 3 books....

Anyway great job on this book.

I first want to say I basically love this book. Second making blocks of statistics and powers is not my problem, coming up with interesting characters and stories that are not 1 dimensional is, I envy good script writers which is why I buy product. I know it's a GM's job to flesh things out......but a 20th level cleric who is basically described simply as a bully who graduated to better foes? That's it? For a 20th level character? I like the crunch being worked out, but just a little more interesting fluff would be nice too..

Big stat blocks don't leave as much room for background story, alas. :(

Old Nekron wrote:

I first want to say I basically love this book. Second making blocks of statistics and powers is not my problem, coming up with interesting characters and stories that are not 1 dimensional is, I envy good script writers which is why I buy product. I know it's a GM's job to flesh things out......but a 20th level cleric who is basically described simply as a bully who graduated to better foes? That's it? For a 20th level character? I like the crunch being worked out, but just a little more interesting fluff would be nice too..

Big stat blocks don't leave as much room for background story, alas. :(

I actually see the lack of a huge backstory as a good thing. The more actual backstory there is, the more contradictions there will be when I go to use the character.

On the other hand, that simple paragraph gives me a ton to work with when I go to use her in my campaign - and I won't have to rework a bunch of integrated backstory on the fly.

I, for one, would love to contribute to a future volume of a Rival Guide 2 and do a bunch of lower level NPCs, thereby trimming back the crunchy stat-blocks enough to do some deeper dives on their backstories. Not overkill, obviously. You can only save so much room with a lower level stat-block anyway. But to roll in some extra awesome.

If we do a Rival Guide 2... chances are good it'll be VERY similar in level spread to the first Rival Guide, since the fundamental theory behind it is that high-level NPCs are harder to make than low-level ones, and are thus more useful to a paying customer.

I first want to say I basically love this book. Second making blocks of statistics and powers is not my problem, coming up with interesting characters and stories that are not 1 dimensional is, I envy good script writers which is why I buy product. I know it's a GM's job to flesh things out......but a 20th level cleric who is basically described simply as a bully who graduated to better foes? That's it? For a 20th level character? I like the crunch being worked out, but just a little more interesting fluff would be nice too..

I think we all got the same word limit for our sections, and thus on the higher level NPCs, the stats are by default going to cut into the available word count for background.

While some of us would happily write a 68k word treatise on a given topic, that's not normally possible with word counts and pragmatism coming into play.

Pragmatism, that bully. *fist shake*

If we do a Rival Guide 2... chances are good it'll be VERY similar in level spread to the first Rival Guide, since the fundamental theory behind it is that high-level NPCs are harder to make than low-level ones, and are thus more useful to a paying customer.

I already want another Rival Guide. Count me as pre-ordered!

Old Nekron wrote:

I first want to say I basically love this book. Second making blocks of statistics and powers is not my problem, coming up with interesting characters and stories that are not 1 dimensional is, I envy good script writers which is why I buy product. I know it's a GM's job to flesh things out......but a 20th level cleric who is basically described simply as a bully who graduated to better foes? That's it? For a 20th level character? I like the crunch being worked out, but just a little more interesting fluff would be nice too..

I think we all got the same word limit for our sections, and thus on the higher level NPCs, the stats are by default going to cut into the available word count for background.

While some of us would happily write a 68k word treatise on a given topic, that's not normally possible with word counts and pragmatism coming into play.

Pragmatism, that bully. *fist shake*

Actually, the 20th level characters all had the appropriate word count (give or take), but that was without the benefit of being part of the layout, art direction, or editing process.

A 20th level stat block naturally takes up more words than, say, a level 5 stat block. More than that, though, the words for a stat block take up more space than those in prose. Hard returns for different stat lines means that a 20th level stat block can take up well more than half a page. Add in art, headers, background, various pagination requirements, page numbers, and all that other fun stuff, and fitting in more than a small amount of background information would force the one-page character descriptions on to an additional page--or necessitate the use of minuscule fonts. Barring choices that would make the characters either unreadable, or violate the premise of the book (a kind of bestiary of 40 one-page NPCs with additional support information), the only reasonable thing to do was to cut out a bit of text.

And, seeing as I wrote it, I'm okay with them cutting out my beautiful, beautiful words. Especially if they're going to put art like that on my characters.

That said, if people really do want to know more about Inaris Jerveel and Echean Ansolandi, Paizo knows a bit of their stories. How much they want to reveal is entirely up to the developers. Personally, I think they'd make an awesome blog post--since it's doubtful the backgrounds for these characters will appear anywhere else--but that would depend on how much outcry there is from the fan base, and how much willingness there is from the team at Paizo to release information cut from the book for space.

Unfortunately, sometimes the need to meet the expectation of the book trumps the expectations of certain readers. In this case, the cleric in question needed to fit on one page, and between art, background, and stat block, only the background could be sacrificed.

-Brian
(who wants very much to be able to use the image for Derrak Stoneskull as his messageboard avatar, please)

I, for one, would love to contribute to a future volume of a Rival Guide 2 ...

Likewise. This was a fun project and I'd eagerly sign up for a second one.

Neil Spicer wrote:

I, for one, would love to contribute to a future volume of a Rival Guide 2 ...

Likewise. This was a fun project and I'd eagerly sign up for a second one.

I'll happily third the idea of working on a followup book to this one too :)

Fourth! Working on this one was a blast. Put us to work, boss!

If we do a Rival Guide 2... chances are good it'll be VERY similar in level spread to the first Rival Guide, since the fundamental theory behind it is that high-level NPCs are harder to make than low-level ones, and are thus more useful to a paying customer.

By way of feedback, I'd like to see the "rivals" compressed a little more into the mid-level ranges. The first book wound up having a lot more in the higher levels than I originally realized. You had:

4th level - The Kodar Kneecappers
6th level - The Poisoned Lodge
8th level - The Hands of Slaughter
9th level - The Marrow Reavers
10th level - The Argentate Blades
12th level - The Queen's Hands
14th level - The Night Harrows
16th level - The Dust Coven
18th level - The Hellblood Corsairs
20th level - The Children of Steel

I'd like to see something more along these level bands:

2nd-3rd (vary these guys so they're not all the exact same level or CR)
5th
7th
8th
9th
11th
13th
15th
17th
19th

That way, the weightings are a little more to the middle, while still giving folks a couple of really high level rivals to use, but also a few more low level ones that could grow alongside the PCs throughout the course of an entire campaign, as opposed to more of a one-shot encounter with them. It would also help you fill in some of the gaps from the prior mix in Rival Guide 1.

Just my two cents,
--Neil

from Brian Cortijo in regards to my post about wanting more fluff and history on high level characters....

"That said, if people really do want to know more about Inaris Jerveel and Echean Ansolandi, Paizo knows a bit of their stories. How much they want to reveal is entirely up to the developers. Personally, I think they'd make an awesome blog post--since it's doubtful the backgrounds for these characters will appear anywhere else--but that would depend on how much outcry there is from the fan base, and how much willingness there is from the team at Paizo to release information cut from the book for space."

I think this is a great idea and I would totally love it, I would even pay a couple of dollars for a supplementary download of stuff like this as an extra "appendix" of story to go with products. I love the mythology, history, personae, social placement of things in RPG's. Would love a little more about characters past histories and how it motivates their presents, especially how the exploits of on the cusp of epic level characters has made an imprint and sent dominoes tumbling in Golarion.

Fourth! Working on this one was a blast. Put us to work, boss!

Fifth! As my 13-year-old would say, this book was teh funzorz!

I think this is a great idea and I would totally love it, I would even pay a couple of dollars for a supplementary download of stuff like this as an extra "appendix" of story to go with products. I love the mythology, history, personae, social placement of things in RPG's. Would love a little more about characters past histories and how it motivates their presents, especially how the exploits of on the cusp of epic level characters has made an imprint and sent dominoes tumbling in Golarion.

I'm glad to hear that people are interested in their stories. Working up 20th-level stat blocks is fun, in its own way, but getting inside the head of people that powerful... that's the rewarding part.

Well, that, and the stories I'll get at GenCon about TPKs. ;)

Oh, and add me in as #6 who'd love to give it another go around. Maybe next time I'll even allow my NPCs to multiclass!

If we do a Rival Guide 2... chances are good it'll be VERY similar in level spread to the first Rival Guide, since the fundamental theory behind it is that high-level NPCs are harder to make than low-level ones, and are thus more useful to a paying customer.

+1 Here's hoping for Rival Guide 2.0!

I love this book! Moar!

I get the impression that this one focused on the higher part of the power band so another one with more teams at mid level would be awesome. This from someone who when DMing the Savage Tide played up the Jade Ravens for all they were worth! Same thing with Entombed with the Pharaohs. There is nothing quite as much fun as rivalries between the PCs and other adventuring groups.

I love this book! Moar!

I get the impression that this one focused on the higher part of the power band so another one with more teams at mid level would be awesome. This from someone who when DMing the Savage Tide played up the Jade Ravens for all they were worth! Same thing with Entombed with the Pharaohs. There is nothing quite as much fun as rivalries between the PCs and other adventuring groups.

The biggest complaint we heard about the earlier "NPC Guide" was that the stats in that book were TOO low level—that the NPCs in that book were not really much of a timesaver since building low-level stats is relatively easy.

As a result, we deliberately skewed the NPCs in "Rival Guide" quite high, and judging by the reactions the book's getting, it seems to have been the right choice.

Another big NPC book would not focus on low level foes. It'd probably focus on medium and high level ones, similar to the Rival Guide, but perhaps with more in the CR 6–12 range than Rival Guide had.

Avemar wrote:

I love this book! Moar!

I get the impression that this one focused on the higher part of the power band so another one with more teams at mid level would be awesome. This from someone who when DMing the Savage Tide played up the Jade Ravens for all they were worth! Same thing with Entombed with the Pharaohs. There is nothing quite as much fun as rivalries between the PCs and other adventuring groups.

The biggest complaint we heard about the earlier "NPC Guide" was that the stats in that book were TOO low level—that the NPCs in that book were not really much of a timesaver since building low-level stats is relatively easy.

As a result, we deliberately skewed the NPCs in "Rival Guide" quite high, and judging by the reactions the book's getting, it seems to have been the right choice.

Another big NPC book would not focus on low level foes. It'd probably focus on medium and high level ones, similar to the Rival Guide, but perhaps with more in the CR 6–12 range than Rival Guide had.

Sounds really good; now, crack your whip and get those lazy freelancers to work on RG 2! Based on this thread, it looks like they have too much time on their hands anyway! ;P

The biggest complaint we heard about the earlier "NPC Guide" was that the stats in that book were TOO low level—that the NPCs in that book were not really much of a timesaver since building low-level stats is relatively easy.

As a result, we deliberately skewed the NPCs in "Rival Guide" quite high, and judging by the reactions the book's getting, it seems to have been the right choice.

Another big NPC book would not focus on low level foes. It'd probably focus on medium and high level ones, similar to the Rival Guide, but perhaps with more in the CR 6–12 range than Rival Guide had.

I agree that mid-level is the sweet spot to concentrate on while still covering the low and high level bases. However, for me the main reason to buy a book like the Rivals Guide is for the background, flavor and team mechanics of an actual party. Individual NPC books are neat too (as long as the actual NPCs are interesting) but for me what rocks hardest about this book is that it mirrors the PCs in terms of party interactions and tactics. The art is very good too.

I picked up a print copy at the FLGS the other day.

My $.02: Keep the higher level stat blocks, but allocate the additional space required for a detailed back story. I find real synergy in having both, and am fine with fewer NPCs for my money if it means those NPCs get the full treatment.

the word count for higher level entries should be be bigger than the lower level ones

My number one 'want' for this sort of book is at least a brief exploration of their preferred tactics in an encounter, and how (or, *if*) they synergize together or use teamwork to set situations up to take advantage of. Particularly in the cases of the higher level groups, it would make sense that they would have some preferred strategies that involve their standards spells, feats, skills and class abilities, and not necessarily derived from custom stuff (like the Kneecappers, who I like, but are built around some non-core options).