Pathfinder Adventure Path #35: War of the River Kings (Kingmaker 5 of 6) (PFRPG)

Two more words: "it's shipped." :D

So they're shipping, eh?

(starts the "one week after the first subscriptions ship" counter)

A jabberwock AND a vorpal sword? Well done!!!

Ken

Snicker-snack!

Just getting my first look at the book right now; very good stuff. As always, pretty darn awesome.

Noticed a bug, though - the Pitax Heralds only have their first level number of rounds of Bardic Performance. They are listed as having 7 rounds/day, and should have 17.

A question regarding the mass combat rules. The only reference I find for Consumption is that it is equal to half the army's CR. However, all of the monstrous armies have Consumption much higher than this. While this seems balanced, I can't figure out what determines the higher Consumption. What am I missing?

A question regarding the mass combat rules. The only reference I find for Consumption is that it is equal to half the army's CR. However, all of the monstrous armies have Consumption much higher than this. While this seems balanced, I can't figure out what determines the higher Consumption. What am I missing?

Consumption is increased by equipment that an army has, such as mounts, magic or masterwork weapons, or the like. Most of the prebuilt armies have some form of extra equipment.

Consumption is increased by equipment that an army has, such as mounts, magic or masterwork weapons, or the like. Most of the prebuilt armies have some form of extra equipment.

Ah, okay, so that equipment has a consumption cost, not just a one-time buy cost. That makes sense.

Another thing: Under critical hits in mass combat it says a natural 20 always deals damage, even if your OM is less than the other army's DV. However, since damage is OM - DM, I am curious how much damage a critical is supposed to deal?

Personally I am just considering having criticals treat the opponent's DV as 0, but that could result in some very short fights. xD

Another thing: Under critical hits in mass combat it says a natural 20 always deals damage, even if your OM is less than the other army's DV. However, since damage is OM - DM, I am curious how much damage a critical is supposed to deal?

Personally I am just considering having criticals treat the opponent's DV as 0, but that could result in some very short fights. xD

I've covered this in the stickied "Mass Combat" thread in this forum. The short answer is that if you hit another army with a natural 20, you do a minimum of 1 point of damage even if your result isn't above the target's DV.

I've covered this in the stickied "Mass Combat" thread in this forum. The short answer is that if you hit another army with a natural 20, you do a minimum of 1 point of damage even if your result isn't above the target's DV.

Great! ... Could you provide a hotlink to it?

James Jacobs wrote:

I've covered this in the stickied "Mass Combat" thread in this forum. The short answer is that if you hit another army with a natural 20, you do a minimum of 1 point of damage even if your result isn't above the target's DV.

Great! ... Could you provide a hotlink to it?

Here ya go!

For me this adventure was some kind of a let-down.

The mass combat rules are superb, simple and easy. I´m looking forward to some of the battles.

For me this adventure was some kind of a let-down.

Sorry about my critique, Jason. It´s just what I think at the moment.

Hey, everybody likes what they like. But, with regard to your thoughts...

I liked the adventure quite a bit, and I've sent you an email. Thanks for the work.

What I'm having trouble with here is more of an "entire adventure path" problem. I'm having the greatest difficulty I've ever had with spatial understanding...I don't get where everything is in relativity to other locations!

Is there a large map somewhere that shows me things like where War of the River Kings hex map is as connected to the hex map from #4, #3, and the one from #2 and #1?

I liked the adventure quite a bit...

I liked it, too. Jason and I worked quite a bit on making sure the handoff from "Blood for Blood" would work well with "War of the River Kings" and I thought we had some good synergy. The "tone" of Kingmaker takes a significant turn from a storytelling standpoint in chapter 4. And chapter 5 turns up the heat in a way that the stage is set for the final villain to be revealed. So, together, these two adventures represent that point in the plot where things come to a crest and now the heroes finally know what they need to do to secure the safety of their kingdom.

What I'm having trouble with here is more of an "entire adventure path" problem. I'm having the greatest difficulty I've ever had with spatial understanding...I don't get where everything is in relativity to other locations!....Is there a large map somewhere that shows me things like where War of the River Kings hex map is as connected to the hex map from #4, #3, and the one from #2 and #1?

I was very lucky in that early on in the design process Wes accidentally forwarded the entire series of hex maps to me that they'd sketched out for regions 1-4. I think he meant to send me a different file, but it actually helped a lot for me to get a sense of where everything was located in relation to everything else. I was able to recognize the heroes were settling into region #2. And chapters 1-2 would take place there. Then, chapter 3 ("The Varnhold Vanishing") would lie to the "east" of their kingdom (or, at least to the right of their initial map of the Stolen Lands). Similarly, in chapter 4 ("Blood for Blood"), I knew that adventure would lie to the "west" of their kingdom (or, to the left of their initial map). And Jason's adventure, chapter 5 ("War of the River Kings") would lie further "west" towards Pitax.

So, if you lay out the individual maps side-by-side from the adventures, it goes something like this:

Region 4 - Region 3 - Region 2 - Region 1

Adventures 1 and 2 take place in Region 2. Adventure 3 takes place in Region 1. Adventure 4 takes place in Region 3. And adventure 5 (and 6?) takes place in Region 4.

Hope that helps,
--Neil

P.S. For my own satisfaction, I actually took all four of the original hex maps and strung them together into a single .JPG file so I could reference it while writing. You can pretty much do the same with the maps in each of the adventures.

I liked the adventure quite a bit, and I've sent you an email. Thanks for the work.

So did I. Thank you.

I liked the adventure quite a bit, and I've sent you an email. Thanks for the work.

So did I. Thank you.

I liked the adventure quite a bit, and I've sent you an email. Thanks for the work.

What I'm having trouble with here is more of an "entire adventure path" problem. I'm having the greatest difficulty I've ever had with spatial understanding...I don't get where everything is in relativity to other locations!

Is there a large map somewhere that shows me things like where War of the River Kings hex map is as connected to the hex map from #4, #3, and the one from #2 and #1?

this?

On a separate note: Am I the only one who got a butchered map of Whiterose Abbey on page 33?

The bottom half of the map is much darker (hard to see) and the two maps have been switched around in this bottom half. To add to the confusion, the location codes are in the correct place, so they don't match the transposed images.

'Tis very confusing.

For me this adventure was some kind of a let-down.

** spoiler omitted **

The mass combat rules are superb, simple and easy. I´m looking forward to some of the battles.

I don't find this a compelling analysis at all, if there are any wavering purchasers reading this thread. I've expressed my dismay with paizo APs before, but I've got no complaints with this one whatsoever. If they can rock the sixth installment, it's the equal of their best AP to date: Crimson Throne.

Is it me, or does the map of the Whiterose Abbey on page 33 look messed up? I can't really make heads or tails of it. If this has been fudged, is it possible to get an corrected picture?

DogBone

Stephan wrote:

For me this adventure was some kind of a let-down.

** spoiler omitted **

The mass combat rules are superb, simple and easy. I´m looking forward to some of the battles.

I don't find this a compelling analysis at all, if there are any wavering purchasers reading this thread. I've expressed my dismay with paizo APs before, but I've got no complaints with this one whatsoever. If they can rock the sixth installment, it's the equal of their best AP to date: Crimson Throne.

** spoiler omitted **

You´re right, this AP was fantastic and still is. I´ve never said the AP is bad, not at all. My "analysis" is about this module. I read the adventure, and I´ll play it, but I still think my complaints are reasonable. Others have no complaints, and that´s fine. But this is a discussion, and not only positive critiques should be allowed.

Is it me, or does the map of the Whiterose Abbey on page 33 look messed up? I can't really make heads or tails of it. If this has been fudged, is it possible to get an corrected picture?

DogBone

If you scroll up to the top of this thread, in the product description, right below the ISBN, there is a link to a corrected map for that page.

roguerouge wrote:

Stephan wrote:

For me this adventure was some kind of a let-down.

** spoiler omitted **

The mass combat rules are superb, simple and easy. I´m looking forward to some of the battles.

I don't find this a compelling analysis at all, if there are any wavering purchasers reading this thread. I've expressed my dismay with paizo APs before, but I've got no complaints with this one whatsoever. If they can rock the sixth installment, it's the equal of their best AP to date: Crimson Throne.

** spoiler omitted **

You´re right, this AP was fantastic and still is. I´ve never said the AP is bad, not at all. My "analysis" is about this module. I read the adventure, and I´ll play it, but I still think my complaints are reasonable. Others have no complaints, and that´s fine. But this is a discussion, and not only positive critiques should be allowed.

I quite agree - good, bad, or in between, it's all part of the discussion. I think there are answers to your questions, and hopefully some of those answers might increase your enjoyment level, or once you actually it the play-through of the adventure you'll find it turns out to be more enjoyable than you're expecting.

As for the tournament events, I'll say that I ran that section of the adventure as a PaizoCon event and the players had a blast both participating in and (in-character) betting on the events. A con game isn't the same as an ongoing campaign, of course, but still it was qutie a fun event.

I think there are answers to your questions, and hopefully some of those answers might increase your enjoyment level, or once you actually it the play-through of the adventure you'll find it turns out to be more enjoyable than you're expecting.

That´s right, you´ll never know for sure before you´ve played the adventure.

As for the tournament events, I'll say that I ran that section of the adventure as a PaizoCon event and the players had a blast both participating in and (in-character) betting on the events. A con game isn't the same as an ongoing campaign, of course, but still it was qutie a fun event.

I think I was a little unfair regarding the tournament. The setting is very cool, very atmospheric.

But we´ll see if my players are as smart as I think. ;)

Stephan:

Jason Nelson wrote:

I think there are answers to your questions, and hopefully some of those answers might increase your enjoyment level, or once you actually it the play-through of the adventure you'll find it turns out to be more enjoyable than you're expecting.

That´s right, you´ll never know for sure before you´ve played the adventure.

Quote:

As for the tournament events, I'll say that I ran that section of the adventure as a PaizoCon event and the players had a blast both participating in and (in-character) betting on the events. A con game isn't the same as an ongoing campaign, of course, but still it was qutie a fun event.

I think I was a little unfair regarding the tournament. The setting is very cool, very atmospheric.

Thanks. One thing as far as the gameplay of the tournament, which I think is still there in the text, is this:

Go ahead and play out the events for fun. If your players' characters aren't necessarily good matches for the events, have them take on the roles of some of the sample NPCs. This way they aren't stuck watching on the sidelines but can take a little one-off character and run with it. Add a few personality quirks from the Gamemastery Guide (or, Heaven forbid, your own creativity) to make the various competitors distinct.

Heck, offer a free bag of M&M's to the player who notches the most victories, or get a sack of chocolate coins at the toy store and hand them out to winners. Even a small real-life trinket or amusement can be a great inducement to players to dive in and go whole hog. A little bit of staging can go a long way here.

There is also a map pack for tournaments which could come in very handy (one of them quite serendipitously showed up in my PaizoCon swag bag!), which has a jousting list, archery range, and some other handy little pieces. The "Arena" flip mat could also come in handy for laying out some of your events.

But we´ll see if my players are as smart as I think. ;)

As for your spoilered note, Neil lays it out excellently above. Yes, they have SOME reason to think that perhaps he's not entirely on the up and up, but remember this:

You're in the River Kingdoms.

EVERYBODY they meet is likely to have some kind of agenda, and every ruler is likely to be at least a little bit squirrely, sleazy, sneaky, skullduggerous, etc. So he's a little suspicious. They should expect nothing less from anyone able to control one of the RK's.

He's also persuasive and has plenty of plausible excuses, and more to the point it's nothing more than a notion, a suspicion. Even if they think there's something to it, how better to find out if there's a real threat than to take up the invitation and go check it out first hand? Get an up close look at a potential rival where there are lots of other people around and he wouldn't try anything... openly... :)

The map locations are a bit odd because the territory overlaps with the territory covered in #6, which means you have a lot of locations that are present on the map... but don't have any detail attached until the next adventure. Whether you like the wilderness better then, we'll see.

Actaully... we had to fit all of this region's locations into this adventure, because the last adventure's more about a terrible blight and horror that affects the ENTIRE Stolen Lands; it's not just centralized in a specific region. There's also a fair amount of First World stuff going on as well. So yeah... we did have to fit all the Glenebon Uplands encounters into part 5.

Also, as mentioned above... at this level, the PCs are pretty high level. Flight, teleportaion, and other options make overland exploration less and less compelling for most groups. If this isn't the case for your group... you'll probably want to take the time to design a few more encounters. (As for the empty dragon lair... never fear: that dragon won't go "wasted" for much longer!).

The overland encounters that occur in part 6 occur throughout the Stolen Lands, in other words; and the exact locations are left to each GM so that you can place them in areas that, in your particular game, have been more important than in others.

I think that there's a VERY good chance that some groups will see through the ruse and avoid going to the tournament. Especially groups whose GM has, over past campaigns, done a lot with NPC betrayals and ambushes and the like. (A GM really only has to do this twice over the course of a career as a GM with the same group to forever make his players suspicious of all NPCs, I think!)

All of which is why I added the section on page 9, "A Note about Timing." To summarize, this is a sandbox adventure and you shouldn't feel obliged to run it in order from page 6 to page 59. If the PCs don't want to go to the tournament, congratulate them on their shrewd judgement of character and then have a frustrated Irovetti attack their kingdom anyway. Then, once the PCs win, you can use the tournament section as a celebration type event rather than a distraction.

-Lisa

Got my shipping notice today - what a nice birthday present! :)

Belated happy birthday. Am still waiting for mine :)

I think that there's a VERY good chance that some groups will see through the ruse and avoid going to the tournament. Especially groups whose GM has, over past campaigns, done a lot with NPC betrayals and ambushes and the like. (A GM really only has to do this twice over the course of a career as a GM with the same group to forever make his players suspicious of all NPCs, I think!)

Whaaattt? NPC betrayal? Come on, it wasn't THAT many times...

All of which is why I added the section on page 9, "A Note about Timing." To summarize, this is a sandbox adventure and you shouldn't feel obliged to run it in order from page 6 to page 59. If the PCs don't want to go to the tournament, congratulate them on their shrewd judgement of character and then have a frustrated Irovetti attack their kingdom anyway. Then, once the PCs win, you can use the tournament section as a celebration type event rather than a distraction.

Good point. The tournament piece really could happen any time you want it to, and for that matter anyWHERE you want it to. Heck, the PCs could HOST the tournament (perhaps suggested by some NPC) as a goodwill gesture to their neighbors, they could hold the event in their own kingdom, or co-host it with nobles from Pitax, Mivon, or Brevoy. Most of the skulduggery could still happen by all the rascals they invite in as their guests.

** spoiler omitted **

-Lisa

Brilliant!

The key point for anyone with regard to the politically important NPCs from this adventure, both the ones that appear directly in the adventure like Villamor Koth and Irovetti, and the background NPCs like the leaders of the other RKs who appear at the tournament, is the same:

Foreshadowing is your friend.

If you want to set up a certain outcome for WotRK, then drop in extra information about those NPCs ahead of time. Afford them an opportunity to meet them in person, or at least their representatives. I did much the same with Maegar Varn during KM #2 to set up things that will happen in KM #3, and it ended up leading in some very interesting directions (as in, one of the PCs getting pregnant by way of Varn and the two deciding to marry... blissfully unaware of the bad juju lurking around the corner in #3). You can and absolutely should do the same with Koth, Irovetti, and any other NPCs you want to set up.

As a GM *running* the AP you have two great advantages:

1. You know your players and what they will respond to; and,
2. You get to see the whole AP laid out either before you start running it or at least while you're running it.

Most groups running Kingmaker are now in #2 or #3, but you get to look ahead several issues, see what you think will work for your players and not work for them... and you also are in position to do something about it! You don't need to take our words on the page as indelible fate. You can craft and manipulate events, foreshadow and set up people and events that are coming down the road in a way that will grease the skids for when your players finally get there. You can add or remove clues that you think would make things problematic for your PCs going along where you want them to.

No adventure is going to be great for every group of players just sitting on the page, no matter how much time, effort, skill, and love go into it (which I can tell you is quite a bit), less still an entire series of adventures. Hopefully with a little of your secret GMing sauce, though, it'll make sweet, sweet music.

Jason: Well done!!

My PCs will go just because there is a tournament. They won't care if they know he's the BBEG or not, the chance to compete would be enough. I can't see any of them actually using the ROLM, but I can see them snapping it up and selling it, and using it to improve about a dozen other magical items.

The mass combat rules rule! And frankly, so do the tournament rules. And the quest for the drunken jousting absolutely rocks. I can see more than one of my PCs, even ones who can't ride, entering for a shot at that.

One question - you said that improvements to armies cost continuing consumption. How about siege engines, which are kind of expensive. That seems a little high for a weekly cost.

Jason: Well done!!

My PCs will go just because there is a tournament. They won't care if they know he's the BBEG or not, the chance to compete would be enough.

I think this is the reaction I was hoping for in including it in the adventure. "There's a tournament? With jousting and archery and who knows what else? And we get to go and be big shots with our own kingdom? AWESOME!"

I can't see any of them actually using the ROLM, but I can see them snapping it up and selling it, and using it to improve about a dozen other magical items.

The RoLM is a totally weird old-school item, which I think fit better in the age of the game before specialization, where people used anything they found. I can see how "modern" characters might have reservations about it, which would lead me to suggest:

a. Change the weapons it switches into into ones your PCs actually use; or,
b. Change the ITEM ITSELF so that it can change into items selected BY THE WIELDER. Say:

- Base form is a +2 light mace
- 3/day you can change it into another weapon: a +4 one-handed martial melee weapon; a +3 spear, lance, or polearm; or a +1 flaming (or perhaps any energy type) weapon of ANY KIND (including exotic weapons, two-handed weapons, even ranged weapons).

You could put a limit on the duration it can be used for any weapon, but the point of it would really be that it's a moddable weapon that allows a fighter to be ready for anything.

Just an idea...

The mass combat rules rule! And frankly, so do the tournament rules. And the quest for the drunken jousting absolutely rocks. I can see more than one of my PCs, even ones who can't ride, entering for a shot at that.

One question - you said that improvements to armies cost continuing consumption. How about siege engines, which are kind of expensive. That seems a little high for a weekly cost.

James is actually the genius responsible for the mass combat rules (and the highly entertaining addition of drunken to jousting), so he will be the authority of reference for the weighting and costing of various improvements to armies.

Major__Tom wrote:

Major__Tom wrote:

I can't see any of them actually using the ROLM, but I can see them snapping it up and selling it, and using it to improve about a dozen other magical items.

The RoLM is a totally weird old-school item, which I think fit better in the age of the game before specialization, where people used anything they found. I can see how "modern" characters might have reservations about it.

But why are the save DCs so witheringly low? At this level, that's just useless. I'll be bumping them (probably by about 10!). But even then, at 1/day, and requiring a touch attack (for 2 of the uses), that's still not that amazing.

Jason Nelson wrote:

Major__Tom wrote:

Major__Tom wrote:

I can't see any of them actually using the ROLM, but I can see them snapping it up and selling it, and using it to improve about a dozen other magical items.

The RoLM is a totally weird old-school item, which I think fit better in the age of the game before specialization, where people used anything they found. I can see how "modern" characters might have reservations about it.

But why are the save DCs so witheringly low? At this level, that's just useless. I'll be bumping them (probably by about 10!). But even then, at 1/day, and requiring a touch attack (for 2 of the uses), that's still not that amazing.

The save DCs are set at the defaults, which are the relevant spells with minimum stat mods.

If you think they're too low, by all means change them. They're entirely arbitrary grab-bag abilities that are what they are. You could think about having them able to be activated as an immediate action, say any time you score a crit with the rod (in whatever form it is) - might make them more handy even with the lower saves.

As I said, the rod is a weird grab-bag item from the quirky days of 1st Ed. Why does it do these particular spell effects? Why these weapons? Why does it turn into a LADDER? It's high on quirk and low on min-max specialization. That's just not what the RoLM is all about.

Holy crap thanks for the map info guys! And I've looked up what the Outlaw Council is on the wiki; great stuff Lisa, and I'm going to use it as well if that's okay. We're actually just finishing up the first module on Sunday - since we alternate two games, it takes forever to get through these. :)

Holy crap thanks for the map info guys! And I've looked up what the Outlaw Council is on the wiki; great stuff Lisa, and I'm going to use it as well if that's okay. We're actually just finishing up the first module on Sunday - since we alternate two games, it takes forever to get through these. :)

Feel free to use any ideas I put up there! That is what makes paizo.com so cool, is all the GMs sharing ideas. It has made my own campaign so much richer and more detailed. I am happy to throw in my own 2 cents when it make sense. :)

-Lisa

Elfgasm wrote:

Holy crap thanks for the map info guys! And I've looked up what the Outlaw Council is on the wiki; great stuff Lisa, and I'm going to use it as well if that's okay. We're actually just finishing up the first module on Sunday - since we alternate two games, it takes forever to get through these. :)

Feel free to use any ideas I put up there! That is what makes paizo.com so cool, is all the GMs sharing ideas. It has made my own campaign so much richer and more detailed. I am happy to throw in my own 2 cents when it make sense. :)

-Lisa

Awesomeness, I think I'll be doing the same thing. Thank you for the idea, I was just starting to get worried because...

I've got to say Jason that I really like how you handled the tournament. I ran a Birthright game two years ago, and those archery and jousting rules seem a lot of fun. I think your rules will find a lot of use in other tournaments!

Hey Lisa sorry to bug you, but at which point/during which module do you plan on having them go to the Outlaw Council? I want to make it so that they are important enough to be invited, but politically weak enough to feel like the underdog there.

You´re right, this AP was fantastic and still is. I´ve never said the AP is bad, not at all. My "analysis" is about this module. I read the adventure, and I´ll play it, but I still think my complaints are reasonable. Others have no complaints, and that´s fine. But this is a discussion, and not only positive critiques should be allowed.

I just don't agree with you. Doesn't mean I was implying that only shiny happy people should post.

Hey Lisa sorry to bug you, but at which point/during which module do you plan on having them go to the Outlaw Council? I want to make it so that they are important enough to be invited, but politically weak enough to feel like the underdog there.

The Outlaw Council really only invites those who rule "significant" countries in the River Kingdoms. I am thinking that might be sometime after volume 3 when the PCs annex Varnhold. That should get them to the point of being worthy to be at the Council. But I think a lot will depend on your own campaign and how significant the PC's country is by that time. It may take longer or it may take less time. You be the judge!

-Lisa

The Outlaw Council really only invites those who rule "significant" countries in the River Kingdoms. I am thinking that might be sometime after volume 3 when the PCs annex Varnhold.

That would make for good timing, especially considering...

Very nice ideas there, Lisa and Neil! I'll have to remember them when the time comes.

Lisa Stevens wrote:

The Outlaw Council really only invites those who rule "significant" countries in the River Kingdoms. I am thinking that might be sometime after volume 3 when the PCs annex Varnhold.

That would make for good timing, especially considering...

** spoiler omitted **
My two-cents,
--Neil

Excellent weave Neil! I just finished reading your adventure and it is really fun! I love the little threads like the one in your spoiler, which a GM can use to weave in a larger sense of the world. Fun stuff!

-Lisa

Excellent weave Neil! I just finished reading your adventure and it is really fun! I love the little threads like the one in your spoiler, which a GM can use to weave in a larger sense of the world. Fun stuff!

Cool!

I really believe that's my signature style. I'm a thread-weaver. I usually have so many "hooks" and "threads" that come to me when I'm writing something, I have to consciously rein them in and only go with the handful that make the most sense. I liked including that particular thread in Blood for Blood because, having also worked on Guide to the River Kingdoms, I already had a larger sense of the world where Kingmaker takes place and thought it deserved incorporating a few elements from outside the borders of the Stolen Lands and Pitax.

Hope you have fun with your campaign,
--Neil

I know this thread is old, but for anyone scrounging the forums for Kingmaker tips in the modern age...

I started writing letters to the players from various characters early on, so I had used this letter early on in book 4:

This was mostly a response to the PCs considering the possibility of deploying armies in book 4, but it also set up the Rushlight Tournament as something to be achieved by impressing the other lords.