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Don't underestimate the value of a thorough Pathfinder-compatibility (rather than spelling/grammar and 3.0 or 3.5-compatibility) editing. Paizo customers have stuck with Pathfinder for good reason, a) they enjoy the 3.5 system; and b) they enjoy the refinements Pathfinder has brought to 3.5. If you stray from that formula, you risk losing customers.
Paizo have stated they're not really interested in publishing a large number of variant PC races, as they prefer to keep their Golarion campaign setting human-centric and close to the core. This is fine, but many 3rd Edition-era players have grown up playing various flavours of elf, half-ogres, centaurs, Eberron, Races-of-series etc and miss this flavour/variety. This opens up a huge opportunity for a product like Avlis, whether or not a player/GM is interested in running an Avlis campaign themselves, races (and other game elements) will certainly be borrowed and incorporated into their home campaigns. As such, they need to adhere to Pathfinder conventions, as many GMs concern themselves with game balance, compatibility etc.
Avlis isn't the first Pathfinder-compatible product to be savaged for non-compliance with Pathfinder conventions. Have a look through Adamant Entertainment's Tome of Secrets thread. This product had so much promise, but fell way short of the mark. Clearly the community is hungering for products like these, but quality Pathfinder-compatibility editing will make or break a product.
Odd racial modifiers (+1, +3, +5) might seem insignificant, but they're a red flag that the editor doesn't understand the Pathfinder system, and a GM then has to double-check every other detail for potential problems.
Favoured Classes probably shouldn't appear in a Pathfinder-compatibile product, I'm happy for a third-party publisher to throw a bone to 3.5 players who haven't converted wholly to Pathfinder, just mention in a side-bar that this is the reason you're doing so. Even if I don't use the 3.5 favoured class mechanic in my Pathfinder games, others still do, and it's interesting to note which classes the race leans toward for campaign flavour.
Many of us have been following the Paizo messageboards and Jason Bulmahn's posts throughout the Pathfinder Alpha and Beta playtests, if not actively contributing to those discussions. While I don't expect every game developer to have done so, I'd strongly recommend reading the free Pathfinder RPG Conversion Guide which does outline many of the differences between 3.5 and Pathfinder and many of the game's broad design goals to keep in mind when converting (or developing) races, classes, spells, monsters, etc. Apply these guidelines across rules within your Alvis product, and I think you'll have a winner on your hands!
As much as I love what Paizo are producing (keeping 3.5 alive, six new base classes, YAY!) if they're not encouraging greater choice in PC races, then I'll gladly welcome a company that does, IF their rules are solid, definitive and fit seamlessly alongside Paizo's. Eg, if various companies release a half-ogre race, I'll go with the company whose races are consistent when compared with each other, and with Paizo's core. There's wisdom in not having to pick and choose between different companies of varying qualilty and power-creep. Avlis provides a good assortment of races, which could prove to be a good one-stop-shop IF they fit comfortably and confidently within Paizo's system.
I'm using races as an example here, but the same holds true for any rules component: classes, feats, spells, monsters etc.
I kind of hoped that other third-party-publishers might read the feedback given to products like Tome of Secrets and learn from it to improve their own offerings and avoid the pain others have endured.
Thanks for the review, Urizen. Yes, we are going to be revising the text and putting it out again, giving all those who bought a copy a new version for free. At this time, I think it is only the Avlis fans buying, so we should not have a big problem there.
What I do not know is how long it will take to update/revise this content, as that will probably require some additional layout work as well, which might take time and money that we have yet to set aside.
Thanks also to all who piped up in this thread. See you for the next release.
I am really encouraged by this!
As much as Avlis content appeals to me, I wouldn't purchase it in it's current form. Did that with Tome of Secrets - once bitten, twice shy. I buy Pathfinder-compatible products so I don't have to invest time developing my own - proofing and editing a published product isn't something I'm interestd in doing.
I really wish the best for Pathfinder-compatible publishers, because I really want to buy their products to expand my game options. I know game development isn't an easy process, and I know it's difficult to accept negative feedback, but get it right and reap the rewards your product deserves! So I hope you won't regard this as some random guy bashing your product on a messageboard, but hopefully regard it as constructive criticism and an honest and strong encouragement to continue! I'm sure many here feel the same way.
Cheers,
DarkWhite
Point taken, DarkWhite. I am glad that the community here is supportive. Yeah, yeah, they did "savage" my product as you put it, but I think it's probably because they care. That's encouraging. To me that means I might have a chance to bring Avlis to this community after fixing the book.
I'm no stranger to this kind of thing. Back when Neverwinter Nights came out in 2001, we were one of the very first persistent worlds to come online and go public. We thought we had the best thing since sliced bread. Well, the same thing happened. Our reviews were awful. The NWN community thumbed its nose and laughed. What that did was galvanize us. We swore we would address the valid problems people brought up and make a comeback....and we did. Avlis PW was and still is the most successful PW in NWN. Not only that, but our PW wound up contributing to the whole NWN community by giving them new content and tools that are used by almost every PW out there now.
I am not saying that doing the same thing here is a slam dunk, but I am saying that there seems to be a demand for something like Avlis here, and all this criticism I have received has sorta made me angry and determined enough to provide for that demand. The same goes for Nob. Moreover, Avlis has potentially more writers than just Nob and I. I'm fairly lenient with allowing people to invent in my world, as you can see from all the extra content on the Avlis wiki, so this is nice.
Nob and I are going through the PFRPG rules with a fine-tooth comb, and buying the competing campaign worlds' PDF's to see what we're up against. The plan is to "quickly" fix this book and put out a "Revised" edition, after a Pathfinder Editor goes through it. Next, we will release an "Avlis Expanded" edition, where we actually add in a lot of material to the book, like plot hooks, personalities, organizations, etc.
Stay tuned. Game on.
That's the spirit, Josh! We look forward to your expanded edition.
Thanks for the more extensive review, Chris.Well, I read through this product and posted a short review. Here's a longer description with more details.
snikt
+1
That's the spirit, Josh! We look forward to your expanded edition.
Looks like a lot of fun possibly, when you get it done (and who here doesn't hear the DNF "when it's done" and groan) we will be waiting to enjoy it.
Nothing bad about being ambitious and willing to redo it to further entice dollars into his wallet.
Hey everyone,
I wanted to give an update to those who were interested.
I intend to fix this Avlis work in two phases. Phase I is to simply fix the rules mistakes in the book, but not actually add any content. That will be the Avlis Sourcebook "Revised Edition".
Phase II is to extend some of the information and add plot hooks, according to some of the criticisms given in this thread. That will be the "Expanded Edition" and will come out a bit later.
So where am I now? Well, I've been busy with life stuff, but still managing to slowly get this moving. I started a pnp group to actually play some Avlis PFRPG weekly, so that's taken some of my time. Nevertheless, I am almost through with editing the Races section of the book to bring it into line, since that was the section that received the most bad press. Next I will tackle classes, then monsters, along with some prose editing and we should be done.
Along the way, I plan to have the work checked, and soon will be asking for help from some of the earlier critics to look over the revised Races chapter for rules editing.
Once this Revised Edition is done, I will give a PDF of it to anyone who has purchased the original PDF already.
Best,
--Josh, aka Orleron
Yeah, I'd be interested to know if there's an update too. I'm interested in looking at this, but it'll certainly move up my list of things to buy once the revised edition arrives. :)
Hello all,
Thank you for asking about the revisions. They are proceeding. It is taking a little longer than expected because I am re-wiring the holy warrior classes into base classes instead of prestige classes. Plus, there's been a death in the family that's slowed things down, and I am simultaneously working to launch an Avlis version of a Facebook Game that should be up and running within a couple of weeks in beta mode.
Lots of stuff on my plate. What would really help out is if I could get some feedback on some of the revisions, like the entire Races chapter whose revision is complete. If interested, email me on that, please.
I am also interested in anyone who would be willing to play test a class here and there as I do the revisions.
--Josh
So did this get updated?
So did this get updated?
Gah, posting late at night ends up with this.
What I meant to ask is "Did this get updated with the works in progress, as described in previous posts?".
I read the table of contents preview on RPGNow; but wanted to make sure that it wasn't the outdated version that people seemed to have a problem with.
The PDF was last updated on December 29th, 2011, but I don't know if it contains the works in progress as discussed in prior posts. I'll poke the publisher and see if he can chime in with any information.
I'm friends with the publisher on FB. I'll link back. :)
I'm friends with the publisher on FB. I'll link back. :)
Thanks!
Hello, hello.... No, the PDF that is up there is NOT updated.
I am actually most of the way through a decent-sized revision, but am having a hard time with my co-author who is spending most of his time trying not to lose his legal immigration status in the US. Yikes. That means he's not too into writing lately, which means I'm going to have to finish the revisions myself.
Having said that, I could still use some play testers who are willing to take a chapter at a time and use the crunch in there for their real games to tell me how it goes. Email me at joshua.simon@gmail.com or friend me on FB via the same email address if interested.
Many thanks in advance,
--Josh
Nice to see another PW creator thought of this. Good luck with the revisions Josh and once I get Brynsaar published maybe we'll see more NWN worlds here.
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By the by, I have just submitted the Revised Edition of World of Avlis to Paizo for publishing to the website as a PDF. It should run for $6.95 instead of 20 bucks.
As always I am grateful for feedback, and I hope you will find that this version agrees a lot more closely with the Pathfinder RPG rules.
I also hope you will get to enjoy my world as much as I do, and as so many others have done along the way.
Special thanks goes to Mark Smiley for that artwork, and to Matthew Lindley for helping to redesign the cover a bit. I'd also like to thank the crew that helped revise the text and rules.