Why does Cheliax hate Halflings?

Is there any answer more complicated than "They're evil"?

Is there any answer more complicated than "They're evil"?

Why did the Spanish hate the American Indians, the English hate the Guineans, or the Victorians hate children?

They're a ready source of exploitable labor, able to perform tasks either cheaper than adult humans can perform them or able to perform them at all when adult humans can't, and on the face of things ill-equipped to avoid impressment into service. They also potentially share quite a lot in common with the degraded lower-class humans (serfs, proletarians) in Chelish society, and with others. Unity on this basis must be prevented. An ideology justifying their degradation, and their special degradation below [almost] everyone else, only follows naturally.

(The "almost" is there because tieflings exist, and are ghettoized rather than even being exploited for labor. YMMV on who has it worse.)

The don’t hate them, they think they’re inferior. Both are horrid and cruel, but veeeeery different.

Halflings. Duh. :p

If you hate someone, you are deeply emotionally engaged with them.

In Cheliax, halflings are more like furniture than creatures you would emotionally engage with. Indifference is the more likely emotion.

I thought there was a throwaway line or two in one of the books that mentioned that the Chelish don't care for halflings because of their natural gifts towards sneakiness, which lends to lawbreaking, but I could be wrong.

Why don't they extend it to gnomes? They have the whole 'Half as big but can work just as well.' thing going on.

Why don't they extend it to gnomes? They have the whole 'Half as big but can work just as well.' thing going on.

I'm not sure that's quite true. A gnome confined to one place and held to the same or similar tasks day in and day out would bleach into uselessness in pretty short order.

That said, Cheliax probably does have an ideology of gnome inferiority. Even if Chelaxian humans weren't already beating a human supremecist drum for various reasons (the above justification for slavery, similar justifications for conquest of their neighbors which would also have involved those neighbors' enslavement, Arodenism which was a manifestation of both in its time, etc.), the gnomes' king is a willing Thrune supporter/toady who placed his people at their de facto disposal in exchange for de jure autonomy for himself and his court. But while halflings live basically everywhere humans live, in pretty significant numbers, gnomes are thin on the ground except in and around Brastlewark. So gnomes don't have as much of a well-defined role within Chelish society. Chelaxian human attitudes toward them, therefore, don't come up very much.

Why don't they extend it to gnomes? They have the whole 'Half as big but can work just as well.' thing going on.

Oppressing gnomes isn't very beneficial to the the oppressor. It's like why people used horses and oxen as draft animals instead of large cats and bears. Gnomes die if they get too bored, so forced drudgery doesn't suit them, even if you can keep them captive and on task given all of the innate magic they inherited from the first world.

Chelaxians think they are superior everyone, halflings are just one position on a long list. Even devils are seen as serving Cheliax, not the other way around. Give it few more decades, and they will even have Asmodeus portrayed as a Chelaxian.

I think it is mostly a "them" to contrast the "us". I imagine the Thrune had something against halflings from way back, but I don't know what. And of course, it is reminiscent of the antisemitism of the Nazis, or the slavery of the United States. It makes sure that we don't look too favorably at Cheliaxians. They are bad guys, or at least good people suffering through a bad situation.

I imagine the Thrune had something against halflings from way back, but I don't know what.

Slavery in Cheliax and Chelish/human supremacism as an ideological justification thereof predate the Thrune regime, and probably House Thrune as a recognizable entity, by a long way. The Azlanti practiced slavery, as did their descendants in imperial Taldor and their successors in Cheliax. Arodenism was one big human-supremacist racket, and Taldor and Cheliax were in their turns centers of Aroden worship. It is probably no accident that the church of Aroden was seduced to demonology in its latter days or that his most proud worshipers have fallen as far as they have. I'd go so far as to call it an allegorical warning about the dangers of supremacist thinking if I believed the people writing this stuff were capable enough as a collective body of staying on message to actually make that point. A happy accident, then.

For all that, the most prominent use we're shown to which halfling slave labor is put is domestic servitude. This use informs the backstories of iconics Lem and Meligaster, as well as Liberty's Edge faction leader Tamrin Credence. The use of halfling slave labor in Chelish industry is, like Chelish industry itself, fairly modern, and dates specifically to an innovation by House Leroung of using halflings on sailing ships because they and their food took up less space, leaving more space for cargo. (Never mind that a worker's physical strength and mass are actually important on a sailing ship in a way that they aren't in, say, a spinning mill, and that it would have made a lot more sense worldbuilding-wise for halfling slavery to intensify in machine industry, perhaps powered by infernal or protean engines for fantasy flavor if steam power is too prosaic. We got what we got.). In other words, intensified exploitation stemmed from the profit motive, rather than a personal beef or even ideological extrapolation. So it was, so it is, so it shall ever be.

Cheliax seems very 'might makes right' and celebrates the exercise of the strong over the weak. Few races, and none so ubiquitous in human lands, epitomize 'the weak' like halflings. They seem almost custom designed to evoke contempt and abuse from the natural bullies of Cheliax, who delight in 'punching down.'

They themselves aren't exactly known for being rugged paragons of physicality, like the Shoanti or Ulfen or Kellids, so the halflings give them a convenient people to get away with bullying, and that let them 'feel big'. (And they can go on deriding the Shoanti / etc. as oafish lumbering brutes, to rationalize why their 'might makes right' philosophy doesn't extend up past themselves, to more physically robust folks...)

(Never mind that a worker's physical strength and mass are actually important on a sailing ship in a way that they aren't in, say, a spinning mill, and that it would have made a lot more sense worldbuilding-wise for halfling slavery to intensify in machine industry, perhaps powered by infernal or protean engines for fantasy flavor if steam power is too prosaic. We got what we got.)

In fairness, halflings are a lot stronger than humans pound for pound. they weigh, like, 30 pounds, and yet remain something like 4/5 as strong as an adult human five or six times their weight. Many Halflings can lift three times their own body weight over their head, something really rare among even the strongest humans, and strong halflings can easily lift six times their own body weight over their head, something basically impossible for humans to do (the specific numbers here are PF1, but this remains true in PF2 as well, given their ability to carry unconscious humans and the like).

Whether that is a sufficient explanation for their increased usages on ships I'm less sure, but it's at least something vaguely resembling a justification.

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

(Never mind that a worker's physical strength and mass are actually important on a sailing ship in a way that they aren't in, say, a spinning mill, and that it would have made a lot more sense worldbuilding-wise for halfling slavery to intensify in machine industry, perhaps powered by infernal or protean engines for fantasy flavor if steam power is too prosaic. We got what we got.)

In fairness, halflings are a lot stronger than humans pound for pound. they weigh, like, 30 pounds, and yet remain something like 4/5 as strong as an adult human five or six times their weight. Many Halflings can lift three times their own body weight over their head, something really rare among even the strongest humans, and strong halflings can easily lift six times their own body weight over their head, something basically impossible for humans to do (the specific numbers here are PF1, but this remains true in PF2 as well, given their ability to carry unconscious humans and the like).

Whether that is a sufficient explanation for their increased usages on ships I'm less sure, but it's at least something vaguely resembling a justification.

Woah! 30 pounds? Source?

EDIT: Sorry, posted before doing a basic search. It's in the CRB page 170. Halflings average weight is 30/25 + 2d4 (male and female respectively). That means that somewhere out there there's a level one halfling that can clean and jerk 172.5 pounds, while weighing only 30-38 pounds. That's mind boggling.

Woah! 30 pounds? Source?

Check Chapter 7 of the 1E CRB, page 170, Table 7-3.

SOLDIER-1st wrote:

Woah! 30 pounds? Source?

Check Chapter 7 of the 1E CRB, page 170, Table 7-3.

Halflings could range from 27 lbs to 38 lbs, with males tending to be larger than females.

Yeah, I posted and then researched instead of the other way around. Thanks!

Deadmanwalking wrote:

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

(Never mind that a worker's physical strength and mass are actually important on a sailing ship in a way that they aren't in, say, a spinning mill, and that it would have made a lot more sense worldbuilding-wise for halfling slavery to intensify in machine industry, perhaps powered by infernal or protean engines for fantasy flavor if steam power is too prosaic. We got what we got.)

In fairness, halflings are a lot stronger than humans pound for pound. they weigh, like, 30 pounds, and yet remain something like 4/5 as strong as an adult human five or six times their weight. Many Halflings can lift three times their own body weight over their head, something really rare among even the strongest humans, and strong halflings can easily lift six times their own body weight over their head, something basically impossible for humans to do (the specific numbers here are PF1, but this remains true in PF2 as well, given their ability to carry unconscious humans and the like).

Whether that is a sufficient explanation for their increased usages on ships I'm less sure, but it's at least something vaguely resembling a justification.

Woah! 30 pounds? Source?

Source. Specifically, 30 pounds is the "base weight" for a male halfling. Mean weight for a male halfling is 35 pounds, and for a female halfling is 30 pounds.

It's really this mass deficit compared to humans that is a problem for uses of halflings on ships, and not their comparatively smaller absolute strength deficit. It's not modeled in the game, but tasks like hauling line use the body as a counterweight. The need for this can be offset somewhat by improved tackle machinery, so perhaps that was another, contemporaneous, Leroung innovation.

Yeah, I don't disagree with that, I was just super surprised at how little they weighed and how strong they could theoretically be without augmentation.

Slavery in Cheliax and Chelish/human supremacism as an ideological justification thereof predate the Thrune regime, and probably House Thrune as a recognizable entity, by a long way. The Azlanti practiced slavery, as did their descendants in imperial Taldor and their successors in Cheliax. Arodenism was one big human-supremacist racket, and Taldor and Cheliax were in their turns centers of Aroden worship. It is probably no accident that the church of Aroden was seduced to demonology in its latter days or that his most proud worshipers have fallen as far as they have. I'd go so far as to call it an allegorical warning about the dangers of supremacist thinking if I believed the people writing this stuff were capable enough as a collective body of staying on message to actually make that point. A happy accident, then.

While I agree with zimmerwald1915's points about slavery and ancestral chauvanism, I don't think "Aroden worship fosters diabolism" is supported by the text. Were it otherwise, centers of worship in Absolom and elsewhere would also have begun worshipping Asmodeus. In fact, Aroden's former worhipper largely switched over to Iomedae, and I imagine Abadar and Erastil to a lesser extent.

Cheliax began worshipping Asmodeus not because of Aroden or human chauvanism, but because House Thrune, who were diabolists even before the Age of Lost Omens, won the Chelish Civil War.

It's not that dramatic a shift though, which I believe is the point.

From a god of order that almost exclusively concerns himself with humankind and is the absolute dominant faith (and one of the major political power), to a diabolist regime that puts humans (especially chelish ones) above all else... Not necessarily that much of a transition.

It's not for everyone, for sure, but neither is going over to the Inheritor. Iomedae might have been Aroden's Herald, but their Dogmas are quite different.

Yeah, I don't disagree with that, I was just super surprised at how little they weighed and how strong they could theoretically be without augmentation.

"And they fit easily in most overhead storage compartments!"

Speaking of tight spaces, mining.

I think it really comes down to halflings are small and easier to control than fully grown humans.

I think it really comes down to halflings are small and easier to control than fully grown humans.

Holy vulgar materialism, Blackjack!

Phillip Gastone wrote:

Why don't they extend it to gnomes? They have the whole 'Half as big but can work just as well.' thing going on.

Oppressing gnomes isn't very beneficial to the the oppressor. It's like why people used horses and oxen as draft animals instead of large cats and bears. Gnomes die if they get too bored, so forced drudgery doesn't suit them, even if you can keep them captive and on task given all of the innate magic they inherited from the first world.

A bit off topic, but Nidal values gnome slaves highly. That's for a lot of shadow magic, where intensity of experience and emotion is valuable.

Kelseus wrote:

I think it really comes down to halflings are small and easier to control than fully grown humans.

Holy vulgar materialism, Blackjack!

I can't tell if you are being serious...

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

Kelseus wrote:

I think it really comes down to halflings are small and easier to control than fully grown humans.

Holy vulgar materialism, Blackjack!

I can't tell if you are being serious...

Thank you.

Kelseus wrote:

I think it really comes down to halflings are small and easier to control than fully grown humans.

Holy vulgar materialism, Blackjack!

Though, I feel like they were just going to oppress whichever group of people who were nearby that they could:

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

Kelseus wrote:

I think it really comes down to halflings are small and easier to control than fully grown humans.

Holy vulgar materialism, Blackjack!

Though, I feel like they were just going to oppress whichever group of people who were nearby that they could:

1) Other
2) Push around

And its counterpart: abstract, timeless psychology.

It's not that dramatic a shift though, which I believe is the point.

From a god of order that almost exclusively concerns himself with humankind and is the absolute dominant faith (and one of the major political power), to a diabolist regime that puts humans (especially chelish ones) above all else... Not necessarily that much of a transition.

It's not for everyone, for sure, but neither is going over to the Inheritor. Iomedae might have been Aroden's Herald, but their Dogmas are quite different.

Let's also not forget that Cheliax's socio-political belief structure was heavily influenced by the prophecy that Aroden would return to Golarion and take over Cheliax to personally lead it into a golden Age of Glory. That would have influenced their interpretations of Aroden's faith to be more humanocentric, and when Aroden died and the prophecy was ruined, they lost that percieved status as Golarion's "chosen people," so it was relatively easy for Hell to offer a return to that status through House Thrune. The alternative was to admit that they were not the greatest and most divinely favored nation on Golarion, which would be far too humiliating to bear.

And this probably impacted how they viewed halflings as well: being chosen by prophecy meant they had a divine right to lord over halflings, and turning to Asmodeus allowed them to maintain that justification, albeit with fewer pretensions of righteousness.