Help with my first Pathfinder Character (Two Weapon Fighter)


Advice


Hi, I started to play Pathfinder a short time ago and in all honesty I don't know much of anything about the game.
I will try to keep this short.
I'm currently in a party of three, one Rogue, one Monk and my Fighter.
We all just reached level 3 and have just finished a quest, which left me with around 2300 gold pieces to spend on equipment.
Stats:
STR: 12 HP: 30
DEX: 17 AC: 19
CON: 15
INT: 11
WIS: 14
CHA: 10

Skills:
Acrobatics: 3
Appraise: 3
Climb: 5
Escape Artist: 3
Fly: 3
Heal: 2
Intimidate: 4
Knowledge (Dungeoneering): 5
Knowledge (Engineering): 4
Perception: 9
Ride: 3
Sense Motive: 2
Stealth: 4
Survival: 7
Swim: 5

Traits:
Seeker:
You are always on the lookout for reward and danger. You gain a +1 trait bonus on
Perception checks, and Perception is always a class skill for you.
Hard to Kill:
Your strong will to live and spread good combined with your pure physicality makes you a tough opponent to take down. You may
have discovered this as a child after a tragic accident or during the course of your first battle. When you are attempting a Constitution
check to stabilize when dying, the penalty on the check is only half your negative hit point total instead of your full negative hit point
total.

Feats:

Combat Reflexes:
You can make additional attacks of opportunity.
You may make 3 additional attacks of opportunity per round. With this feat, you may
also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.

Two-Weapon Fighting
You can fight with a weapon in each of your hands. You can make one extra attack
each round with the secondary weapon.
Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty
for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See
Two-Weapon Fighting in Chapter 8.

Weapon Finesse
You are trained in using your agility in melee combat, as opposed to brute strength.
With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size
category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on
attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.

Weapon Focus (Sword (Short))
You are especially good at using your chosen weapon.
You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.

Piranha Strike
You make a combination of quick strikes, sacrificing accuracy for multiple, minor wounds that prove exceptionally deadly.
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When wielding a light weapon, you can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks
to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand
weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and for every 4 points thereafter, the penalty
increases by –1 and the bonus on damage rolls increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before the attack roll, and its effects
last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage. This feat
cannot be used in conjunction with the Power Attack feat.

Special Quality:

Armor Training (Ex)
You are more maneuverable while wearing armor. Whenever you are wearing armor,
you reduce the armor check penalty by 1 and increase the maximum Dexterity bonus
allowed by your armor by +1

Equipment:

Masterwork Sword, Short x 2
Masterwork Longbow
Masterwork Longsword
Breastplate (Mithral)

So with that all said, I was looking to build a character that fought with two swords, while relaying more on evading and attacking with dexterity than strength.
And I was thinking to build his feats to increase his effectiveness at wielding two weapons, increasing his criticals and anything else that helps him kill more while being harder to kill.
While I mostly have poor knowledge and make bad choices how to handle combat, I'm seeing that I deal way less damage than my monk and rouge party members.

I have several questions and anything you think you could tell me to improve will be appreciated, even if it isn't what I'm asking for!

1) What should I look at as equipment for the budget I just got?
2) How can I improve the base damage I deal out? (I'm really envious of the rogues dex to damage! But I know that isn't an option.)
3) What weapon should I focus on, since most of the feats I will have to choose, will be weapon specific. Or should I stick with the short swords?
4) What feats should I look to get?
5) Any advice you can think of to improve is appreciated.

Thanks in advanced!


To improve on base damage, don't use short swords, use Kukri (because they're 1d4 and 18-20/x2 crit range, with Imp Critical, you can have 15-20/x2). Since you're going Dex, get weapon finesse and Piranha Strike. Theoretically, you will crit at least 1.5x every round by lvl 8 because you have a 30% chance to crit.

Feats:
TWF
Imp TWF
Greater TWF
Double Slice
Weapon Finesse
Piranha Strike
Weapon Focus / Greater Weapon Focus
Weapon Spec / Greater Weapon Spec
Imp. Critical
Critical Mastery
Critical Focus
Sickening Critical
Bleeding Critical


Given no divine caster in the party, I'd look at throwing some ranks into Use Magic Device so you stand a chance of activating a Wand of Cure Light Wounds between battles.

You can do Dex to damage with a Starknife and the feat Starry Grace (prerequisites are DEX 13, Weapon Finesse, and Weapon Focus (Starknife) or with a Rapier and the feat Fencing Grace (same prerequisites except weapon focus would be for a rapier) or Slashing Grace (same prerequisites except weapon focus would be with a light or one-handed slashing weapon of your choosing). However, none of them work when fighting with two weapons.

What's your character's race?


Thanks for all your input!
My Character is a Human but, although it might be a hassle, I want him to wield two weapons at the same time.


If there is no divine caster, and you are thinking of kukris for the Threat Range, then maybe instead of being a Fighter, be a Warpriest. Use your twin Kukris, and your damage will be Warpriest Sacred Weapon Damage instead of the regular Kukri Damage of 1d4. At level 1 Warpriest Sacred Weapons do 1d6, and they get better with increased levels. And the party has its divine caster.


Personally, I'm not a big fan of crit fishing for my own characters. The DPR might be higher that way, but the idea just offends me somehow.

Rather than use 2 Short Swords, why not use a Long Sword and a Short Sword? Then your main attack does 1d8 instead of 1d6?

Rather than use a Long Sword and a Short Sword, why not use a Long Sword and Armor Spikes? Armor Spikes also do 1d6, and now you have a hand free to use a Shield.

You could take Exotic Weapon and use a Katana or Falcata if you like Critical hits, or Bastard Sword if you don't. Bastard Swords do 1d10. If your character were a Tengu, you would be proficient in all swords, including exotic swords like Bastard Sword, 2 Bladed Swords, and Katanas. If you were a Dwarf, you would be automatically proficient in the Dwarven War Axe, which is like the Bastard Sword, but its an axe.

Do you think your GM would let you take an Archetype? How about Phalanx Soldier? At level 3, Phalanx Soldier Fighters can use a Pole Arm in 1 hand and a Shield in the other. You can fight with Halberd (1d10), Armor Spikes(1d6), and Shield or Lucerne Hammer(1d12), Armor Spikes, and Shield.

Shields are weapons, too. If you take Improved Shield Bash, you keep your AC bonus when you Shield Bash. If you take Shield Slam (further down the road, BAB+6) you get a free Bull Rush with every Shield Bash. If you take Greater Bull Rush, your fellows get attacks of Opportunity whenever you Bull Rush somebody. If you take Paired Opportunist, you get an AoO, too. I have a build that does that and uses Thunder and Fang: Earthbreaker(2d6) and Klar(1d6, and it's a Shield) and levels in Inquisitor to get Paired Opportunist. You could do something with Halberd and Light, Spiked Shield. But now I'm talking about a very complicated build that might involved a complete rehaul of your character so far.

The Kukri-Warpriest thing also would involve a complete overhaul of your character, and your GM may not allow that, but it would lead to more DPR and give your party your divine spellcaster.

My Thunder and Fang idea would involve being a Paladin/Ranger at level 3, also a complete overhaul of your character build and very complicated, but between the level in Paladin and levels in Inquisitor that would follow, it would also give your party your Divine Spellcaster.

I can tell you more, but I would like to know more about what your options are and what you are willing to do.

Shadow Lodge

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Rather than use 2 Short Swords, why not use a Long Sword and a Short Sword? Then your main attack does 1d8 instead of 1d6? Rather than use a Long Sword and a Short Sword, why not use a Long Sword and Armor Spikes? Armor Spikes also do 1d6, and now you have a hand free to use a Shield.

You could take Exotic Weapon and use a Katana or Falcata if you like Critical hits, or Bastard Sword if you don't. Bastard Swords do 1d10.

Non-light weapons don't qualify for Piranha Strike, and often cannot be used while grappled.

~ ~ ~

TWF Accelerants:

* barbarian[urban] for Controlled Rage (DEX+4)
* wakizashi proficiency
* Dragon Style
* cestus on one hand, wakizashi in the other for piercing, slashing, bludgeoning without equipment-swapping
* Quick Draw (for quickdraw shields besides usual other reasons)


Sir Thugsalot wrote:
Non-light weapons don't qualify for Piranha Strike, and often cannot be used while grappled.

True. You use Power Attack for non-light weapons, not Piranha Strike. What woud you use for Tiny Weapons, Candiru Strike? That's too scary to think about.

Is getting Grappled something the OP is concerned about?


Thanks again for all your input!
But in all honesty, I didn't understood most of it.
I would go more for increasing the base damage and hit ratio success, than for the criticals (that would be an added bonus).
What items would you suggest?
I was thinking to try and get something to add 1 dex point, not sure what item it would be or how much it would cost.

And I'm not especially worried about being grappled, although I have already suffered from it.


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If your GM will let you, ask about taking 3 levels of unchained rogue. (This is a variant of the rogue class that Paizo put out in the pathfinder unchained book. The classes they put in there are basically what they would make those classes if they were putting the base book out today. Kind of an update to the old 3.0 style of class)

Level 1 will give you weapon finesse so you can retrain it when you return to fighter, level 3 will let you use dex to damage on a single weapon type that you can finesse.

An important thing to keep in mind is that eventually your flat damage bonus is going to make more of a difference than the die size of the weapon you use. Every die size increase is basically 1.5 to 2 damage bonus.

Here is a link to the unchained rogue class It is official paizo, out of a pathfinder hardcover, but still kind of optional.


MarcosMK wrote:

Thanks again for all your input!

But in all honesty, I didn't understood most of it.

Well, do you have any specific questions? What of what was suggested would you like to know more about?

Also, how much leeway do you think your GM would give you in changing aspects of your character retroactively, or just playing a new level 3 character with the same wealth? Some of the things I suggested could involve retroactively changing things about your character: some minor, some major. I'd like to know more before I make more specific suggestions.

Shadow Lodge

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Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Is getting Grappled something the OP is concerned about?

He should be.

Liberty's Edge

MarcosMK wrote:

Thanks again for all your input!

But in all honesty, I didn't understood most of it.
I would go more for increasing the base damage and hit ratio success, than for the criticals (that would be an added bonus).
What items would you suggest?
I was thinking to try and get something to add 1 dex point, not sure what item it would be or how much it would cost.

And I'm not especially worried about being grappled, although I have already suffered from it.

at 4th level, you get an ability point you can put into dex.

You should just start to catch up to the rogue, at least before flanking, because you will get full bab (and piranha strike) and weapon specialization on. Have you set your 3rd level in stone yet?
For example, I don't think combat reflexes does much for you unless you get something else where you need those attacks of opportunity like a reach weapon, bodyguard feat, etc.

How do you feel about using a double weapon vs two weapons?
Like Scott said how much can be retroactive? If I was the DM of this game I'd let a lot change - as it is, a rogue, monk, and fighter are surprisingly similar in combat so if you aren't keeping up with at least the rogue you don't bring *anything * to the party other than hit points and maybe some armor because the rogue and monk will have way better skills, saves, and special abilities.


I just found out, that if I manage to enchant a weapon with agile, it would get the dex to damage.
And that would already help me out, a lot!
Since I usually manage to hit, but then roll very low damage.
Any idea how much it would cost to enchant one of my masterwork Short swords?

And although I don't think he would be against small changes, I am slightly apprehensive of doing them.
It might sound dumb, but I think I should "live with the consequences" of my choices and I don't dislike playing him.
Except from when I manage to hit, roll a freaking 1 and only inflict between 1-4 points of damage (depending on if it is with or without piranha strike and with what hand)!

What I am considering is Increasing the base damage, the two weapon fighting feats, weapon focus and if I get the weapons to do dex to damage, would Double Slice mean that I can make my off hand deal full dex damage?


MarcosMK wrote:

I just found out, that if I manage to enchant a weapon with agile, it would get the dex to damage.

And that would already help me out, a lot!
Since I usually manage to hit, but then roll very low damage.
Any idea how much it would cost to enchant one of my masterwork Short swords?

And although I don't think he would be against small changes, I am slightly apprehensive of doing them.
It might sound dumb, but I think I should "live with the consequences" of my choices and I don't dislike playing him.
Except from when I manage to hit, roll a freaking 1 and only inflict between 1-4 points of damage (depending on if it is with or without piranha strike and with what hand)!

What I am considering is Increasing the base damage, the two weapon fighting feats, weapon focus and if I get the weapons to do dex to damage, would Double Slice mean that I can make my off hand deal full dex damage?

A single +1 agile weapon is 8000 gold plus the cost of the masterwork shortsword. Thats a big reason I suggested going for unchained rogue levels, the rogue levels let you apply dex to damage on both hands just as though it were strength, whereas 2 of the weakest possible agile weapons costs you 16000 gold or more.

Liberty's Edge

Double slice only applies if you happen to use strength for damage while two weapon fighting. Because of this, I only see getting your main-hand weapon as an agile weapon being useful until much later in the game. Usually you're only looking at a point or two of damage on the second weapon, so you'll be just as well off with an enhancement bonus instead.

So, I'll second that kukris are the weapon of choice for two weapon fighters, unless you have weapon proficiency with wakizashi's, though I wouldn't consider it being worth a feat to gain said proficiency. On average, 1d6 is only 1 damage more than 1d4. Meanwhile you could pick up weapon specialization for 2 damage. There is a build that can make use of 2 falcatas while dual wielding, but it really only comes online at level 9 unless you take the weapon master archetype. I would talk to the GM about maybe retraining, though if you want to stick with short swords, it's not the end of the world. I would definitely stick with a single weapon choice as a fighter.

Now, I don't know how much you've read on the fighter, but most of the good options for them are in newer books, such as the melee and ranged tactics toolbox, and the weapon master's and armor master's handbooks. I don't know if there's a limit on what you can use for characters, but assuming that you can use online resources for character building, and you're planning on continuing with the build as is, I'd go with the following:

1 - Two Weapon fighting, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Finesse
2 - Weapon Focus (short sword)
3 - piranha strike
4 - weapon specialization (short sword)
5 - Weapon training light blades, Advanced Weapon Training>focused weapon (short sword)
6 - Improved Two Weapon Fighting
7 - Lunge
8 - Advanced Armor training>Armor specialization (Breastplate)
9 - Critical Focus, Advanced Weapon Training>Weapon Specialization (short sword - Improved Critical, Greater Weapon Focus)
10- Advanced Weapon training>Armed Bravery
11- Greater Two Weapon Fighting
12- Greater Weapon Specialization (Short Sword)

This build is better with kukris, but still works with short swords. Tried to keep everything in either the core rulebook, or the armor/weapon master's handbooks to prevent it from getting overly complicated.
You likely want to rush the agile weapon, to the point where you get it before your second weapon is even magical. I wouldn't rush it before the cloak of resistance though. Put all your 4 level stat increases into dex, and probably prioritize a dex belt over an amulet of natural armor, or a ring of protection.


MarcosMK wrote:

And although I don't think he would be against small changes, I am slightly apprehensive of doing them.

It might sound dumb, but I think I should "live with the consequences" of my choices and I don't dislike playing him....What I am considering is Increasing the base damage,

That doesn't sound dumb. If you are only slightly apprehensive about making retroactive changes, of the changes I suggested earlier, a slight change would be to put Archetype on your Fighter. The Phalanx Soldier Archetype will let you fight with a Halberd in 1 hand and a Shield in the other. The Halberd will increase your base damage to 1d10. The Shield will increase your Armor Class by 2 points, and you put Armor Spikes on your Breastplate and use them for an off-hand weapon. Doing 1d6, same as your Short Sword.

If you don't want to retroactively change anything at all, then make your next Feat Exotic Weapon: Bastard Sword. The Bastard Sword does 1d10. You can 2 weapon fight with your Short Sword as before, but now your main weapon does more damage.

MarcosMK wrote:
and if I get the weapons to do dex to damage

If you don't want to retroactively change anything, and you want Dex-to-Damage, then Ryan Freire's idea is probably the way to take your character. His idea was to swap out your levels in Fighter for 3 levels in Unchained Rogue, but his idea still works if you keep your levels in Fighter and make your next 3 levels Unchained Rogue. You will get your Dex-to-Damage by level 5. And while you won't be increasing your Base Damage, your Sneak Attack Damage will go a long way to make up for that, maybe even more than make up for that. You get to score Sneak Attack Damage under certain circumstances: when you have Initiative before your opponent has done anything--they are Flatfooted, when you have them Flanked--you are at 12:00; your ally is at 6:00, and your victim is between you both--and when your opponent is denied his Dex Bonus to AC somehow.

You just turned level 3. Make this level a level in Unchained Rogue instead of your 3rd level in Fighter, and make your level 3 Feat Dirty Fighting instead of whatever you took. Dirty Fighting gives you a bonus when you have your opponents Flanked, but the real reason you want it is that you need it as a prerequisite for other Feats. The next Feat you get, which you can get by your 2nd level in Rogue should be Improved Feint. As a Move Action, you can try to fake out your opponent with a Bluff Check, then if successful, your opponent has no Dex Mod to AC, and your next attack does Sneak Attack Damage. Next, take Improved Dirty Trick, Greater Dirty Trick, and Quick Dirty Trick. Dirty Trick is a Combat Maneuver that lets you do any of all kinds of things to your opponents, including make them Blind: good-bye Dex Mod to AC; hello Sneak Attack Damage.

After you start doing Sneak Attack Damage, another trick you might teach your character is to make one of your levels a level in Arcanist. Arcanist is a sort of Wizard/Sorcerer. At level 1 they have the option (Arcane Exploit) to gaining an ability called Dimensional Slide, which is a 10' Teleport that doesn't leave your character Disoriented (Dimension Door does.): this would be very useful for achieving Flanking.

I get the idea from your questions that minor magic items are available at market prices in your campaign. Consider the Mask of the Stony Demeanor in Ultimate Equipment. It gives you a +5 on those Bluff Checks I was telling you about.

Liberty's Edge

So, I realized last night that I messed up copying over some stuff from another build I had for the one posted above, it should actually look like this:

1 - Two Weapon fighting, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Finesse
2 - Weapon Focus (short sword)
3 - piranha strike
4 - weapon specialization (short sword)
5 - Weapon training light blades, Advanced Weapon Training>focused weapon (short sword)
6 - Improved Two Weapon Fighting
7 - Lunge
8 - Improved Critical (short sword)
9 - Critical Focus, Advanced Weapon training>Armed Bravery
10- Advanced Armor training>Armor specialization (Breastplate)
11- Greater Two Weapon Fighting
12- Greater Weapon Focus (Short Sword)

I would consider using the 8th level fighter ability to retrain combat feats to retrain combat reflexes into improved critical. You could then take gr.weapon focus at 8, and greater weapon specialization at 12. Since you're a dex based character without reach, you're likely going to be one of the first ones acting, and not likely to draw more than a single attack of opportunity per round.

As for taking Phalanx Soldier archetype, I would suggest not taking it. First, it means you're going to want a polearm, but there's only one way to use weapon finesse with a polearm, and it's with advanced weapon training. You could just as easily take the focused weapon advanced training and deal 1d8 with your chosen weapon. At 10th level it's 1d10. If you use two of the same kind of weapon it applies to both of them. Using a single kind of weapon also allows all your feats like weapon specialization to pull double duty, and your weapon training isn't going to be 4 levels behind on your off hand weapon, plus require a second weapon training instead of trading it for an advanced weapon training. Second, Phalanx Soldier trades away armor training. Being a high Dex character means you're actually going to be able to use the additional dex to AC that armor training provides, plus the advanced armor training for armor specialization, which requires having the armor training ability, will provide 1/4 your level in AC bonus, up to +4 AC for medium armor. Between the two you're just as well off as having a shield without having to pay for a shield.

Then the option to take rogue for dex to damage, well, the main benefit would actually be sneak attack. Going fighter for two levels, then rogue for 3 would get you dex to damage, but a 5th level fighter could have weapon specialization and weapon training. So the rogue would get +4/+2 to damage for his main hand and off hand, the fighter would get +4/+3 because they still have 1 strength on the main hand, and +3 to every attack with your chosen weapon. The fighter would also have +2 to hit over the rogue. Once you get a belt of Dex +2 the damage would even out, but the fighter would still have the bonus to hit, and a higher BAB would mean that both the extra damage from piranha strike and extra attacks from BAB come a little sooner.

As for sneak attack, well there are a ton of threads about how it's not a great ability, but that's because it takes a lot of work for it to be considered (somewhat) reliable damage. There's a number of different options, like taking different archetypes, or focusing in either feint or dirty tricks, both of which can be traded out for a single attack in a two weapon fighters full attack action. For the two of them you're going to want the Dirty Fighting feat, plus Improved Dirty Trick, Greater Dirty Trick and Quick Dirty Trick for the dirty trick maneuver. Feint requires Improved Feint, Greater Feint, and Two weapon Feint. Also as a multi-class sneak attacker, you'd likely want Accomplished Sneak Attacker. All in all, not a bad trade off, but it's 5 feats for an average of 10.5 damage per attack, while also giving up one attack a round. Slightly better in your case if you go dirty trick and manage to blind a creature for the rogue to sneak attack.

Also a quick note, the pathfinder reference document is a little slow to update, but the Mask of Stony Demeanor was changed to 8000 GP, as seen here and here. So while still good, it's something that you likely can't afford till later levels.


As you go up levels of Fighter, Weapon Training and the feat Weapon Specialization will help, but damage is determined by strength and you have poor strength. Starting a character who uses strength to damage things with a 12 strength isn't a good idea, alas. Typically, I would build a two-weapon Fighter based on strength, with just enough dexterity to get Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and no more. If building a Weapon Finesse two-weapon character, I'd be using a very specialized Fighter with the Trained Grace ability or I'd use another class that depended less on raw strength to hurt.

I find Agile weapons annoying because your whole character's effectiveness is determined by a magic weapon property... but in this case, it's one easy fix (though costly).

Another possible quick-fix would be to take one level of Barbarian and the Extra Rage feat. This grants you bonus strength and the ability to use a Furious weapon. One level of Barbarian is all you ever need for Rage, since each Extra Rage feat grants 6 rounds/day of Rage. Your AC takes a hit from Rage, but a high-dexterity Fighter should have zero AC problems.

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