gniht's page

Organized Play Member. 150 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.



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Eric Clingenpeel wrote:
gniht wrote:
it's not like they just outlawed 1 feat choice... it's a huge proportion of the possible options that have been eliminated.

Huge proportion eliminated?

Went and counted, ~12 Item Creation feats vs. ~39 Metamagic and 1 Spell Mastery

I don't consider 1/5 a huge proportion of the options. You've still got ~77% of other options available and that's not even counting the discoveries.

perhaps this is a matter of personal opinion, but I think 23% is huge.

PS. when you look at a wizard build up to level 20, then picking up more meta also seems a lot better than if you're looking at a build retiring at 12th, which is the typical situation in PFS afaik.


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MrSin wrote:
Pan wrote:
Key word is shouldn't. OPs example is joining a balanced 4 player group. What is the harm of a monk/oracle? Keep in mind mechanics are completely different than how a player chooses to roleplay the character.

PFS does expect a level of usefulness. There are even a few missions with DPR race things going on. I keep in mind roleplaying is different, I don't expect him to yell at the top of his lungs to alert foes during stealth missions or to make enemies out of everyone they meet. However I would hope he knows what he's doing to remain competent and useful.

Really thought, what's special about a monk/oracle?

maybe he's taking a couple pally later :p

but seriously...

don't sweat it. if the party is lacking something fundamental, then I think you should consider playing something else... but if your party is pretty balanced already, why not?

the important thing is that you think the concept is cool, and that you have a well defined idea about what the character is going to contribute in different situations.

assuming the team can accomplish it's goals without using a ridiculous amount of consumables, the only reason others really have to be irritated is that their specialized build rolled crappy attempting to do something they were made to do, and you had a decent roll and accomplished it.

but that's how the d20 works, particularly at low levels.


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For any who are interested or unsure of how this feat works I thought I would consolidate and repost here. In another thread there has been a lot of discussion over the heighten spell metamagic. I am pleased to say that I finally have a complete understanding of how the feat functions as written, which I will elaborate on below with some Q/A. it is important to note that this is not a claim as to the intended functionality of the feat but rather a statement of how heighten does work as worded in the feat text.

for reference:

Quote:

Heighten Spell (Metamagic)

You can cast spells as if they were a higher level.

Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

the feat text as written means that when heighten is applied to a spell it:

makes a spell's effective level equal to the level of slot it was prepared in or cast from. it does not adjust the level of slot used, it adjusts the level of the spell cast from or prepared in that slot

Q: so how does this function in practice?

A: normally casters are allowed to prepare and cast lower level spells in higher level slots. if they choose to do so the level of the spell remains unchanged, it simply occupies a higher level slot. when applied to a spell that occupies a higher than normal level slot, heighten spell changes the actual level of the spell to be equal to the level of the slot it occupies.

Q: well, how does that work when other metamagic are applied to a spell along with heighten?

A: all level increases imposed by metamagic are cumulative, and must be added together to determine the slot that a spell augmented by meta will occupy. however, not all meta alter the slot level of spells (merciful spell, for example). heighten spell is one that doesn't modify the slot level that the spell uses, instead it adjusts the level of the spell cast from or prepared in that slot.

when you apply heighten to the spell, whatever slot you choose to place the spell in becomes the effective level of the spell. keep in mind that this slot must be at least high enough to accommodate the cumulative adjustments of other meta you have applied.

Q: doesn't this make heighten overly powerful?

A: Possibly, but it's not all roses. when you alter a spell with other meta you don't change the level of the spell in any way, you only change the minimum level of the slot it must occupy. as such, an empowered fireball remains a 3rd level spell even though it takes up at least a 5th level slot.

if you heighten this empowered fireball that resides in a level 5 slot, it would become in all aspects a level 5 spell.

so what's the drawback? without heighten on the spell you can still use a minor metamagic rod to augment an empowered fireball prepared in a level 5 slot because it remains in all aspects a level 3 spell

if you choose to heighten the spell, it becomes a level 5 spell and although you gain 2 dc, you then would need a normal metamagic rod to augment it while cast.

another thing to keep in mind is that normally there are powerful high level spells one can already prep in that higher level slot that already do more base damage and automatically have higher base dc.

so thanks for reading...

in closing I would like to give a special thanks to all those who took the time to argue against this description in the other thread. before that discussion I was not convinced, but you guys forced me to take a closer look at the exact wording in the feat and I really appreciate that.

also I would like to reiterate that this is not a claim as to the intended functionality of the feat but rather a statement of how heighten does work as worded in the feat text.


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wraithstrike wrote:
Why would you think it was really that different when the selling point was backwards compatibility?

if the point is to leave everything the same then there is no point...

obviously that doesn't mean everything is different, but I think trying to look at things without pre-conceived notions is warranted.

in 3.x I never really felt that the magic system scaled very well across levels. I think metamagic was supposed to be the thing that helped it compensate. here we are in pathfinder and so far i'm not seeing a lot of difference, so i'm trying to keep an open mind about how these things *may* work...

and although taking that sort of departure from 3.x in how we use heighten seems a bit op, 1. it's definitely within the scope of how one could interpret the feat description and 2. it's not without drawbacks if you consider the application of metamagic rods.

on a side note, I rather liked your suppression approach to the whole haste/slow issue. it seems more simple and straightforward than actually dispelling.


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Ascalaphus wrote:
Oh, and it's Mage's Lucubration, not Lubrication. Unless you had something special in mind...

some kind of freudian slip?

wonder what i was thinking... i got rid of my familiar just to avoid embarassing situations like this.