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"Notably,the trigger must be something that happens in the game world and is observable by the character rather than a rules concept that doesn’t exist in world."

Totally reasonable that opinions may vary here, and I have no position on the power-balance of the OP's interpretation, but to me ... if your character is observing the actual attack, it's too late to keep it from resolving (can't know if it's REALLY an attack until it hits or misses, right?) So yeah, the best you could get for your trigger would be "threat moves close to me", which means they haven't yet used a Strike (or etc.) Now, the tactic still might work that round - if they come after you, you move farther than they can follow and Strike, and there's no one else around for them to Strike at ... that could still make them "lose" an opportunity. But not always, and they would still have that action for SOMEthing (maybe a Stride next to you with a murderous gleam in their three eyes?)


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Somehow, I find this appropriate here:

The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”

The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


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Or at least one way of interpreting it. As context, I'm a long-time D&D player, but have just recenly started PF - I was looking at creating a monk, and so I've followed the recent threads. My opinion is that 1) there are clearly some contradictions that need resolving, 2) most of the actual positions on the subject I've seen are supportable. I'll not comment on the attitudes and personalities except to say I have seen some clearly incorrect claims made. A big one for me is that "Flurry has NOTHING to do with TWF" - reading the class description makes clear the devs made a connection. The nature of that connection is, granted, VERY uncertain (and contradicted by some published monk examples)- but saying there's no connection is just not reading, IMO. Another I saw too often is the claim that Magic Fist works with all your unarmed blows - I really don't see now people could read it that way.

Also, one of my favorite D&D monk characters back in the day wielded a pair of sai: one enchanted with fire-based stuff, and one with cold-based stuff. I always played him as getting half his flurry-strikes with fire, and half with cold. It frankly never occured to me to flurry with just the cold sai vs. a (say) fire elemental - that just wasn't the way flurry worked. My monk had flexibilty over the flaming-sword wielding paladin, but against the right (or wrong, depending on how you look at it) opponent, yeah, he was less effective. And, he was Master of Fire and Ice! I mean, that's more important than some average damage calculation, right?

Anyway, I wanted folks to know where I'm coming from, but I'm not looking to re-debate all that's gone before. I want to express what I like about the Flurry/TWF connection.

Short version It boils down to "I VASTLY prefer the flavor it gives the monk."

What do I mean by that? I see a flurry as representing a monk's ability to use "alternate" types of strikes in a way that the standard fighter class does NOT (or at least, the monk does so more effectively). Frankly, a "flurry" of (say) conventional slashes with a single kama is, to me, boring. It's obviously more efficient (in terms of magic item focus & etc.), but - bleh. When a monk flurries (in my vision), it's because half the blows are something different, and perhaps unexpected - a kick, a push, a smack with the haft of the (again, e.g.) kama. Or from the other hand - which could also hold a kama, obviously, but if you wanted it magic you'd have the burden of enchanting it seperately. And the opportunity to enchant it differently.

Even outside the traditional double and/or paired weapon, this works for me. I like the vision of a flurrying monk with a sword in one hand doing unarmed strikes with his other fist/feet/whatever (and per his unarmed damage stats/enhancements) for half his flurry. Just gaining extra iterative attacks with a single weapon doesn't say "flurry" to me. Or for two-handed/reach weapons, I can see half the attacks coming from a smash or thrust from the haft of the weapon, or even from a reach-kick using the haft as a lever (and thus not leaving your square). Again, I'd do half the attacks per his unarmed strike/damage, unless he had a double weapon. I might even let him turn a (e.g., for a sohei) halberd into a double weapon and enchant the haft/spear differently than the axehead.

Between flexibilty and flavor, I prefer this kind of approach (details might vary, but this spirit works for me). I doubt it over-gimps the monk, but I confess I'm not overly concerned with absolute equity amongst characters, and I value situational flexibilty quite highly (I found it totally worth it that my two-sai monk had some extra-effective attack twice as often vs. a super-effective attack half as often). And I value flavor over all. Flavor with a connection to mechanics, especially.

What's left of the problems created by varied interpretation of TWF-Flurry (unless I missed something) is the Zen Archer, who can't reasonably "half unarmed" or "double/paired weapon" flurry with a bow (firing half the arrows as per his unarmed damage is a bit too wierd for me). A new solution would be needed there. Is there a PF feat to injure multiple opponents with a single arrow? That'd work for me - bow-flurry is attacking 2 foes (within what, 10'? 30'? of each other?) with a single arrow for each normally-paired flurry-BAB. You get the "one item" synergy, but have to spread it across 2 bad guys. And (big bonus, for me) be different from a fighter/archer with bow feats.

So, there you go. I entirely understand that other people may have different priorities, and prefer flurrying away with a single weapon at regular-for-that-weapon-everything. I just wanted to express how I'm against that not so much for power reasons as for flavor reasons (and "inside my head" logic - I understand that "inside your head" may vary).

Anyone else?


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Kryzbyn wrote:
Well a sohei wielding a halbred as a double weapon could flurry with it, right?

A halberd isn't a double weapon, though. But that's an interesting solution - let ANY weapon become a double weapon when wielded by a monk in a flurry, where the 2nd side of the double=the monk's unarmed attack. In some cases, this could actually be an unarmed attack, while in others, it'd represent striking with the haft, flat of the blade, and the like.

It doesn't "fix" the fact that the monk loses the special benefits of the weapon for half the flurry, but it's no more complex than a double weapon already is. Given that apparently the developers WANTED to keep a monk from flurrying with a single weapon, this might be how I'd play it . . .

Except for Sohei bows/crossbows and the Zen Archer. Are bows wimpy enough to go ahead and let them be exceptions?