fleece66's page

The real question is: why do you even *want* to be here?

You literally wear your edition loyalty on your sleeve on a forum devoted to a different incarnation of the game run by a company who has moved on from your preferred ruleset. You obviously find the moderation environment hostile. You manage to always find threads crumbling around you without any introspection that your own negative contributions might have some part to play in it. You engage in thread sabotage against the wishes of the website's owners while they're away and against their stated wishes. And you seem to be at odds with the majority of posters here sympathetic to both the company's ruleset and forum decorum.

So what's here for you? Why not move on to another forum environment where you feel more at home? If booted, why in the world would you go through the trouble to conceal yourself for a return when you're at such odds with every angle?

James will like this one on two levels, and it covers the Loch Ness angle someone else chimed in with:

A zombie plesiosaur

I'm totally thinking Dana Knutson's cover from Castles Forlorn!

I'm testing posting to see where my contributor tag went...

Gary Teter wrote:

Personally I'd prefer if nobody ever manually included a signature in their posts, including 3rd party publishers, Paizo staff, secretaries-general of the United Nations or ambassadors from another solar system. But that's just me, and others here may have a different opinion. We'll talk about it.

I agree completely!

Thanks,
cos

I see what you did there.

Not seeing my little black dot using Firefox. Just reporting in...

I can't stand DM fiat made up solely to screw people over. Since when did electricity destroy metal? Oh yeah, never.

Would you please mind your tone, Cartigan? Even this simple post is unnecessarily aggressive to make your point, and we could use a lot less attitude on these boards now days. I'm even asking pretty please, with a cherry on top. =-)

The answer is "Yes -areas of concealment hamper terrain." Besides the fact that according to the rules you can't charge a person you can't see (see second sentence), visibility conditions otherwise negate the use of the charge action. Fog cloud provides poor visibility, poor visibility hampers movement, and you cannot charge while your movement is hindered. Here are the relevant passages from the PRD (emphasis mine):

You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge.

If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent.

"Poor Visibility = x2 Movement Cost"

That's my reasoning there. I'm pretty sure I'm accurate.

EDIT: Quick on the draw there, TriOmega! No fair -I had to quote stuff!!
=-)

I would lean towards no its not treated as a whip other than it shares proficency. They appear to have (even post Armory errata) intentionally left out the 'in all other ways treat this weapon as a whip line' that existed in its 3.5 description.

The line "this WHIP" isn't specific enough? I'd say if it looks like a whip, smells like a whip, uses the whip proficiency and is, you know, a whip, then it's a whip.

When did campaign setting books become "splats?"

I'd love to suggest a solo adventure for you:

The Wooden Mouse by Roger Smith. It can be found in Dungeon Magazine #11. Solo thief game for about 6th level. The PC is hired to break into a mansion during a party and steal a simple carved mouse. The mansion is well-detailed, cleverly executed, full of devious little traps, and would be a pretty easy on-the-fly conversion for Pathfinder, even. Pick up a copy on eBay and give it a read. One of my all-time faves and even great to introduce new players to the game.

But suppose Thassilon didn't have paper either? What if the library in Rise of the Runelords was filled with clay tablets, or etched gold sheets?

Great minds, Firest! You should have been a patron! The books contained the Archives in Shore to Seaare in fact etched sheets of precious metals that levitate near the reader like ioun stones. A lot of Azlanti stuff orbits and floats -inspired, of course, from their obsession with those enigmatic little devices.

Keep in mind that Thassilonian culture and technology was directly inherited from Old Azlant, so use what additional sources you've got there to augment your players' (and your own) understanding of the them. I can tell you from my work on From Shore to Sea that a lot of new elements of these cultures were introduced: buildings and structures that were magically grown from a coral-like substance, favoring of glyph and rune magic, lots of themes of orbiting and levitating devices (it emphasizes a high-minded laziness; I always figured these noble people would work as little physically as possible), clearly defined yet unusual architecture, and unusual technology with consistent themes that hint at the culture's mindset.

The companion book to FStS, Sunken Empires took those ideas one step further. Sure, we "genericized" them, but the intention was to show what was left of an ancient Azlant-like/Atlantean culture, and there are chapters on incredibly advanced lost "arcano-technology" like firearms, arclights, and charged hoplite armor all powered by mystical vril batteries. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. If you've got a player really into figuring things out, let them discover a coral-encrusted weird glyph-covered cylinder with all the wood bits rotted off, and let them go crazy figuring it out how it works...until they find an intact battery, plug it in and blow a hole in the wall.

And that's just Pathfinder stuff you can get right now. Some of my source material when working on these cultures was James Churchward's The Lost Continent of Mu, Donnelly's Atlantis: The Antediluvian World, and the incredibly awesome, written-by-a-17-year-old-medium-channeling-an-ancient-Atlantean A Dweller on Two Planets by Phylos. Crazy stuff that does a great job setting the stage for lost cultures that are both ancient and incredibly advanced, albeit along tangent historical lines that are perfect for fantasy roleplaying. Pick up a cheap used copy and pick through it.

Just some suggested reading!

Indeed, Mark, but HUGE congrats in any case. The Pathfinder Wiki is an indispensable part of my writing routine, and I'd be like a little lost puppy, flipping through multiple tomes and pdfs without it. Major kudos to you and all contributors, and count on all of our support when the polling opens! Ya' dun good work!

Brandon

That's unfortunate and should never have gotten into print. I can't control everything that comes out under the Pathfinder Chronicles line, I guess.

Those shamans should not be clerics, actually. They should be adepts or druids.

James -you know I'd love to see you bend on your stance a little on this one. My offer still stands. I'll write you a sidebar, gratis, that reconciles Core Rulebook allowances and Golarion Pantheism/Philosophical worship (NOT this "godless" worship, though) to leave the door open for folks who want to play official pantheistic clerics in Golarion. I could do it in four sentences! =-)

C'moooooooon, James. I'll let you pick any two domains you want!!! ;-)

Brandon

I've got one. Check out Sunken Empires. It takes exactly that approach to aquatic adventures, giving level-by-level breakdowns for getting PCs' feet wet as they advance in levels, and even provides a great little environment to facilitate those sorts of adventures. Perfect for what you want to do...

Research to add a desired spell to your list is TOTALLY worth it at only 1,000gp per spell level and a little time on your character's part. And easy to do, since you aren't making a spell from scratch.

I just added spectral hand to my cleric's spell list so I could heal at a distance, and it totally rocks.

I also felt the same way as the OP about disrupt undead not being on the cleric spell list. What the heck? The destroyers of these unholy abominations (esp. my cleric of Pharasma) can't use that great little spell?

Well, corrected, and cheaply at that. Very cost-effective.

So... Everyone in Blackcove is turning into a Gillman, on the way to becoming Skum.

Now... the PF Bestiary says Skum are all males, and that's why they have to have the sex with human females.

Since there are gill-tainted women, (some of which are rather far along, like Sara Vanderholt) ... does this mean the women are all becoming (fish)Men?

I can answer that!

The simple answer is..."only sorta not really." =-)

The mutation of the female villagers isn't due to a breach in the "breeding rules" of the skum, but rather the mutating nature of the island's energy field known as "the Warping," as detailed on page 12. The female villagers who have undergone 'the change' (like sweet, lovely Sara -pucker up!), have done so because of their long exposure to the island's field, Mohl'omog's slime, and the fact that most of them have some "true" gillmen blood, as described on page 19. Since they also have a lot of ulat-kini taint in their blood after years of breeding with the creatures, their ultimate mutation is a bit more stable than the random way it affects PCs, so you get to see Sara and some of the others with gills and aquatic traits that the females would not have developed otherwise if left alone in the village to live their lives.

But, you could certainly rule otherwise if you wanted to make an exception and deal with the implications! That could be exciting! You might decide that after the close of the adventure, the villagers escape without the cure, and a new female breeding stock for skum develops. This would lead to a temporary increase in the skum population, threatening the coastline of Cheliax a generation from now with raids from the waves. Of course, all the resulting offspring would be male, but it would increase their raiding party numbers and maybe tip the balance in the region. PCs might have to venture below the sea to destroy this rapidly breeding skum colony to stop the attacks. Hold on...I'm feeling a sequel coming on... =-)

The implications were left intentionally vague, though. The way I saw it, the females would just never fully change, and cease mutating once achieving their potential gillmen form, never reaching that next stage of evolution to become true skum, because, like you pointed out, skum are all male, and we stayed aware of that while writing. But that's just me. Do what's FUN! =-)

Brandon

Maybe a few of these are already among the posts:

Theurgist

Incanter

Legerdemist

Spellbinder (hey -spellbind is a word!)

Warfarer

Magister

Maleficarist (has a certain ring to it) or Maleficar

Ritualist

Enochiast (use celestial language to empower weapons?)

B.

Well the way I see it, I'd prefer it to the witchhunts/ignorance of the 80's...it took a long time to shrug off that mountain of BS.

Man, Amael, I can remember so well (growing up in very conservative Southeast Texas) the crap I had to put up with at school from other students and some of the brochures from the local churches that had screen-shots from the cartoon of "satanic pentagrams" on the castle walls and copies of Monster Manual devils as 'proof' that we were all worshiping the dark lord.

Once, my previously tolerant father showing up from his job at the refinery with some pamphlet a co-worker gave him about the "evils" of D&D. I think I was 10. After he lectured me for a few minutes and read some stuff off the pamphlet while telling me I couldn't play anymore, I ran upstairs, got a few books, and sat down and kind of gave him this full disclosure of what I was doing with my friends when we rolled dice and talked about dragons. He watched and listened, sort of muttered something like "Yeah, I though Bertrand was a little too religious" and told me I could keep playing.

Sad epilogue is that the guy who gave him that pamphlet is still estranged from his son, Tim, a classmate of mine, because of D&D. He caught him playing the game just after we got out of high school and "banished" him from their family. Tim's 36 now, for chrissakes. Sheesh.

I totally agree with Dennis here. The BRP system is easily the most straightforward and intuitive of the major game systems for new gamers and on-the-fly roleplaying sessions with non-gamers.

"Here's your character. Everything you can do is listed as skills here on the right. The percentage is your character's chance of performing the action, and if you roll less than that number on these two dice, you are successful. I'll explain a few other things as we play, like damage and hit points, but let's get started!"

It really is that easy. And quite elegant. In my experience, that really is the extent of the opening conversation with new players. I also know it isn't quite as simple as I made out here, and it complicates just like any other game, but it really is that easy to get started with non-gamers. Sure beats explaining skill ranks, armor class, saving throws, attacks of opportunity, etc.

Cool article, btw. Exposure to new potential gamers can only be good, right?

The heat is ON, Reynolds! Daigle and I have a pretty impressive Black Rock for the Green Blood tournament. But your skills are legendary...your prop-fu most impressive...we shall see...

Of course, I'd better get the thing in the mail, too, or we're going to be playing on a flat table... =-)

Brandon

I do think that if you really want to try Pathfinder out, it's best to try it out in native format... in other words take your 3.5 material and put it on a shelf for awhile and try Pathfinder in it's pure form.

You may find that you'll never want to return to that shelf.

THIS.

Our Austin group (which includes a couple of PF contributors) has always been a by-the-book gaming group. No houseruling or, in the past, non-WotC sourcebooks.

With our full conversion to Pathfinder, we shelved everything and declared Paizo the way to go. The supplemental materials in the APs and CS give a lot of good flavorful feats and traits, and Chronicles materials give lots of great information on regions, classes and religions. And our community here is unparalleled in communication and support.

As a game, much more balanced and streamlined, and we're thrilled with our recent gaming experiences. We haven't had to change a thing!

Erik Mona wrote:

mearrin69 wrote:

I plan on stalking you guys until I get all of you to sign my core book. Hopefully I can get Erik to sign it with a "c" instead of a "k" but that might be asking too much.

M

This will never, EVER happen.

I feel your pain - I can't tell you how many times someone has spelled my name with a K!

Marc Radkle? Yeah...that sucks. =-)

Buzzby is right about the Kobold Guide to Game Design. GREAT resource full of juicy bits about pitching and freelancing.

And don't discount the baptism by fire that Open Design provides to its Senior Patrons in projects. I know it certainly opened the door for me. In less than one year, I went from pitching ideas to patrons to running my own two-book project and writing for Paizo. Senior Patrons of Open design projects not only get the best seat in the house (either front row or backstage, depending on your analogy) but get to collaborate with other talented writers and pitch ideas in successive rounds towards adventures, crunch and fluff of the finished product -in some cases entire chapters. Your pitches get positively critiqued and you get the straight dope pretty quick on why yours may or may not have worked.

It is an excellent way to get your feet wet, and there are new projects on the horizon! Get in early and stay late.

Brandon

Hey I didn't see any 5ft squares. (grin)

They're on there now! Done manually with a charcoal pencil so they blend in nicely and don't ruin the whole paint job. It looks great! Now to just get Daigle over for some detail work and some final touches.

B.

I was going to post the series of pictures, but it took longer to take them between coats than it took to paint it. Soooooo, without further ado, here is the mostly complete Black Rock!

I really went for a bilestone feel to it.

terraleon wrote:

I don't think it could have been in "weeks ago," as the print edition was only made available on the 10th

And yet, my receipt for the print edition is from April 26, three weeks ago tomorrow. Maybe I used magic to order it before the 10th of May. <sigh>

At least I don't have to worry as much for the time being that it's lost. Gracias.

I'm pretty sure Sunken Empires was available for pre-order for a few weeks before it was finally available to ship from the warehouse on the 10th. You're both right! =-)

Why not?
That's exactly what a player would do.

DM: "The psychic shockwave reverberates across the multiverse, as you wake from your sleep, to realise that Bokkblag, the god of War and Destruction, has been slain by his rival Cherubia..."

Player: "Dangnabbit; hand me that eraser..."<rub, rub>....
<writes 'War and Destruction' in the 'Deity' box, where Bokkblag used to be>
"Right, all done, let's pray for spells, and go kick some Cherubic ass."

PCs are just NPCs, with delusions of importance; they act under the same cosmic laws as everyone else.

If it were possible for a PC to worship domains, without the need for a god, then it's possible for NPCs to do it just as easily, in which case, no NPC would ever pick a deity, since doing so is simply hamstringing oneself.

Man -that wouldn't fly for a second in my group, and it obviously doesn't fly for Paizo in their Campaign Setting, either.

But getting into this gets us beyond rules and into less defined territory. See my post on faith, above, or just read the flavor text of the cleric class in Core and CS. Listen, if you are a 15th level cleric of Aroden 100 years ago, and you've spent your whole life in his devotion, from a young boy aiding priests at the altar all the way to your final indoctrination in seminary and an adventuring career promoting his causes, you don't just shrug off the death of your god and say "Awww...shucks. He was alright, I guess. It was really what he stood for that ultimately mattered." No. Your god was the living personification of those ideals, and you asked him directly for the blassing of his power. I mean, you've drank the kool-aid at that point, and it is a little late to spit it back up.

The death of Aroden DECIMATED CULTURES. It destroyed a church. Your character, through the advancement of class levels through the rules, has taken level after level as a worshipper of Aroden. You've been praying DIRECTLY to him for power, not asking his individual 'ideals' aspects for spells. After some serious roleplaying, you could probably eventually figure something out, like ask for the grace of a sympathetic god like Iomedae to allow you into her fold, or discover a way to tap into the divine power of a sympathetic philosophy by asking gods with similar portfolios to not abandon you, but that's going to take some serious roleplaying, and a heck of a lot more than 10 seconds with an eraser...

Of course, if you started the game as an undeclared cleric that worshiped the same ideological mindset as Aroden's followers, but weren't devoted to him directly, you'd probably say "yes -our world has lost a great bastion of Strength and Justice," but you'd keep praying to those two "divine concepts worthy of devotion" that you always have, because that's how YOU were raised and nurtured, and get your spells as usual, despite the death of a god sympathetic to your cause.

In our groups, anyway, and certainly according to the CS.

But I wanted a retort to my Razmir-disintegrating-his-cleric example! Hahahaha.

This really has been a nice mental exercise, and still surprisingly flame-free with only a minor, minor hiccup with a couple of posts. Fun, fun. Kudos.

(And on a brief sidenote, we all know that the reasoning behind rules for generic clerics of "ideals" is to placate those who want to play the game that might otherwise find the concept of pretend-worshiping a false god in a fantasy roleplaying game to be against their individual real-world religious doctrines and beliefs, right? Just wanna make sure we're all on the same page there.)

What virtues do Razmir and Aroden have, those Are the domains you get...see they still fit the "divine concept requirement"

Any Ideal that can be made a "divine concept" by Raw. If you think about it hard enough.

I don't know about that. It doesn't say that, and the given examples don't lead me to believe that you can get far beyond loosely defined abstract concepts like "Strength." Keep in mind that all but one of the example concepts correspond directly to domains, which makes my point pretty strong.

Let's say you are in Razmir's church and try to be his cleric. At least that's what you'll claim. You choose Knowledge and Community domains, just as examples. Now, your devotion is to those ideals and concepts, and not to the direct worship of Razmir. Same with Aroden. Neither god is going to answer your prayers. Your chosen divine concepts will be granting you your power, and they'll be roughly equivalent to your domains. Razmir is going to see you getting power, realize it isn't from him, and immediately disintegrate you, sympathetic to his ideals or not.

Razmir won't like it because you aren't praying or receiving power directly from him- you're sidestepping his worship, because paying homage to concepts he supports is NOT directly worshiping some guy claiming to be a god. As for Aroden, he doesn't care because he's dead.

Ah but see thats the point, You just did the same thing. Any ideal works or just Ideal you think win your augment. See how that works?

See the slop there? It simply is not defined.

I think it IS defined, and I think that DOMAINS define the legal ideals. Maybe that has gotten lost here. (continuing just because this is still fun, right?)

A cleric undeclared to a single deity "selects two domains to represent her spiritual inclinations."

Unfortunately for clerics who want to find a loophole to worshiping Razmir by worshiping the ideal of his godhood, there isn't a "Please Make Razmir A Real God" domain, just as there isn't a "Dead God" domain for those who want to get around Aroden's death, or a "Damn-I-live-in-a-country-where-divine-magic-is-outlawed-but-maybe-if-I-tak e-this-domain-they'll-like-me" domain.

You might not have to declare a single deity, but you DO have to commit to the ideals with the selection of your domains, and those are pre-defined, RAW "divine concepts," right?

I disagree, as he is not a god, worshiping hims IS worshiping the ideal of his godhood. Same with a dead god, he is dead so all you have is his ideal.

It simply is the very same thing and both by RAW are valid. Bout are worthy of devotion. One was a god with ideals and a massive following, the other you think is a god. Both count.

NOW who's the one defining what is and isn't an ideal, Seeker? There isn't anything you just said that is discussed in the rules beyond your own presumption of what defines an ideal. It is the same presumption you just accused everyone else of making, when in fact we're quoting from the rulebook, which defines and lists several divine concepts worthy of devotion, yet we find no mentions of "the ideals of gods."

How now brown cow? =-)

To me an ideal is an ideal. To you guys you place all kinds or restrictions on what is and is not an ideal, restrictions that are simply not there in the rules.

Seeker, man, I love your tenacity, but you're overlooking some important aspects of the debate.

First, the rules DO define what an "ideal" is, and it can't just be anything. It is defined as "a divine concept worthy of devotion—such as battle, death, justice, or knowledge." Like it was stated above, the sorts of "ideals" that end up being domains or powering philosophies.

Simple: Razmir can't have clerics because if they are worshiping his ideals, they aren't worshiping him directly. If they aren't worshiping him directly, then they aren't part of his religion. Similar case with Aroden.

I don't buy into that "we'll just worship what our dead/false god stood for and keep going." Faith doesn't work that way, and there is a lot of flavor text to back up what it takes to be a devoted cleric of a god, and if your god dies, a BIG light goes out in your life that can't be sidestepped by suddenly switching your fealty to the ideals your god once had.

And James left the door open for undeclared clerics in Golarion with his refusal to deny them, so you gotta stop using only half of what he said in your argument. =-)

I think this argument ends very simply, as I explained a long time back:

"Ideals" that grant spells, like Good and Strength, are "sponsored" by the deities who represent those ideals in their portfolios, and they grant spells to undeclared clerics of sympathetic alignments they wish to promote.

Isn't that simple enough? It solves the debate. You can't have "godless" clerics, but you CAN have clerics undevoted to a singular deity.

After all, both Core and the CS do explicitly state that deities grant spells.

It goes on to say "Yet despite their unusual—some claim heretical—
religious views, the pious members of the Order of the Godclaw receive spells just as the worshipers of any other deity. What power grants the faithful of the Godclaw their might remains a matter of some debate outside the order, with many believing Asmodeus himself encourages this
corruption, while others suggest they draw their power from the fanatical devotion to law alone. The signifers of the Order of the Godclaw have another answer, though, claiming their might merely proves the legitimacy of their faith.'

So while they seem to think it is faith alone, they do in fact worship a pantheon and most agree Asmodeus is fueling the most of it.

You and I are still on the same side in this debate, and this quote really backs up my pantheism argument definitively, but I'm afraid it really opens the door more for the worship of an ideal in the passage you quoted: "others suggest they draw their power from the fanatical devotion to law alone."

That really leaves the door open to 'idealogical' worship and is intentionally vague, as it was meant to be. All it states is that others outside the order think Asmodeus might be behind the power, and is far from definitive proof otherwise, as you cite. Quite the opposite, it does say that it is a possibility that the order's own convictions grant it divine strength.

So, there's that.

(circles, circles!) =-)

Most impressive thing here to me is the inclusion of tables that actually list potions by name, so you don't have any more arguing about which spells can be made into them! We did the same thing on Sunken Empires: New spells? These are the ones that qualify as potions! No more flipping around between the spell listing, the magic item chapter and the brew potion feat!

Mikaze brought up the Hellknight Order of the God Claw previously, and for those of you interested in this topic, and whether or not Golarion can officially have undeclared clerics, it does shine some interesting light on the subject in another example of a philosophy, and even the specific domains that followers of this order have access to.

From the Pathfinder Wiki:

The Order of the God Claw is a Hellknight order which extols the virtues of five lawful deities, distilling select tenants into a dogma far from any one god’s faith.

Although the God Claw venerates aspects of Abadar, Asmodeus, Iomedae, Irori, and Torag, it is unclear from which of these gods it draws its power; indeed, it is possible that its own convictions* grant it divine strength. Clerical signifiers and other religious members of the order have access to the Glory, Law, Protection, Strength, and War domains.

*(emphasis mine)

The only thing that gets me about the philosophies is not all of them have gods, so they would not have clerics from that philosophies alone. Although a cleric of a god could still follow one of those I am thinking.

Yeah -I hear you, but there is a lot of stated leniency in that listing that leaves things open, and the Diabolism listing, in particular, states that followers of that philosophy supplicate all 9 architects of Hell as well as the structure of hell itself, so that gives some clue of pantheism there.

For what it is worth, Gods & Magic explicitly states that gods grant spells, just as the Core Rulebook states they grant domains. I'm being very explicit here on purpose.

I think this simple fact alone precludes any sort of "godless" cleric in "official" Golarion, or, as Core states, a cleric "free of deific abstraction." The fact is, it doesn't make sense to pray to "Strength" and expect "Strength" to grant you spells, even in our high fantasy games, even if Core defines it as "a divine concept worthy of devotion." Rather, as I argued before, you've got to ask the appropriate, closely-aligned god or philosophy that represents that ideal concept in its portfolio for the power to cast the spells and domain abilities that they represent, and those abilities can only be granted by the grace of a divine power.

I think that fits everyone's argument here, for the most part. It accounts for standard clerics as well as pantheism, which I think is the proper term for the misleading implications of "godless." You just can't have divine magic without a divine source. In Golarion, the evidence seems to be that you can either pick one or draw power from the pantheon through philosophies. In Core, "divine concepts worthy of devotion" can stand in for gods, but I'm still not sure that "godless" is the term to use when you go that route.

EDIT: And, for what its worth, I guess the first officially pantheistic NPC in Golarion will be coming up in From Shore to Sea, because Lira Schruuven was specifically stated as being undevoted to a singular deity in my turnover, and instead administers the rites of many gods of the sea for the varied worshipers of Blackcove, who spend a lot of time trying to supplicate a harsh sea.

Good debate, guys! I enjoyed this thread today! Way to keep it civil, folks!!!

(Of course, I'm assuming we all got the answers we came for, right?)

James Jacobs wrote:

Godless clerics are possible under the Pathfinder RPG... as they should be. I'm not sure if they're possible in Golarion, though. To be honest, we probably just won't say one way or another and let each individual GM decide if he wants Godless clerics in his Golarion campaign; we just won't have NPC clerics without deities showing up. It's generally not good game design to set arbitrary "nos" into stone, after all...

So no, godless clerics are not forbidden in Golarion. None exist in canon, but they can exist if the GM wants. Link for reference.

There it is! Man -I've got some memory! Of course, I'd never have found it.

That's all good stuff. I'd be curious if the definition of "godless" means you pray to ideals like "healing" and "strength" without ANY deific influence at all, or if you just don't pray exclusively to one particular god to get all your spells (or, like Core says, "not devoted to a particular deity").

Brandon Hodge wrote:

[I put a lot of thought on this subject with a previous character, who was an "undeclared" cleric. He carried about 8 holy symbols of various deities, went through the rituals of different faiths every morning and gave proper tithing and supplication to the various gods he prayed to for spells of different ideals/domains. They were all within one step of his alignment. It was a lot of fun and very interesting to play.

Reminds my of that guy in "The mummy" who keeps pulling out symbols and speaking different languages!!!

Was that how you played that PC?

Quite a bit, yeah. He was actually a very academic mystic theurge, and he had all of his holy symbols on the inside of his cloak, like a New York stolen watch dealer, and he'd rifle through them when he needed one. "Damn -I need to cast flame strike. Where the hell is my holy symbol of Sarenrae??? Crap! I left it in my other cloak!"

Apparently he cursed a lot. =-)

Brandon Hodge wrote:

You obviously CAN'T tap into divine power without a patron of some sort.

And I'm saying it is not obvious. Just because no one in the setting does is not proof that no one can. Hopefully someone will officially clarify it before too long.

Well, I think that is where the entries for cleric in both Core and the CS come into play. Lots of statements about faiths and representation of gods on earth, but yeah, this isn't the first time this debate has erupted over undeclared clerics. I imagine James will be along shortly. Last time this happened, he said "you gotta have a god" but I don't recall what his clarification was regarding polytheism or pantheism or philosophies. That would be a nice quote to dig up right about now, eh?

True, I hope the new CS does cover the new classes however. I can agree if ya follow one of the philosophy that have gods that you could venerate all of them. I still think you would have a main god, but I can see ya giving a nod toward the others. But I am not saying you could not have pantheism, far from it. I am saying you could not have a cleric without a god of some type. I think we are on the same page more or less.

I do think the oracle however was made to fit that role best and really hope they cover that in the updated CS.

See there! We are on the same page! Hahaha.

Right. "Godless" is misleading and, in my view, not possible. Divine power comes from divine sources, which are gods. So, yeah, you can be a cleric of "Strength & Light" but you've GOT to pray to the deities of Golarion whose portfolios encompass those ideals or philosophies. You can't just worship "Strength." You can embody and idealize it, but ultimately you've got to ask Torag or another sympathetic deity close to your alignment with Strength in their portfolio for those spells when you need them. And they'd grant them, because they'd see that you are a sympathetic embodiment of the ideals they wish to promote in the world.

I put a lot of thought on this subject with a previous character, who was an "undeclared" cleric. He carried about 8 holy symbols of various deities, went through the rituals of different faiths every morning and gave proper tithing and supplication to the various gods he prayed to for spells of different ideals/domains. They were all within one step of his alignment. It was a lot of fun and very interesting to play.

Brandon Hodge wrote:

Listen -I'm not saying at any point here that a cleric can get away without actual worship. They have to, at the very least, pray to the multiple deities that represent their ideals and domains in order to be granted spells, but you seem unwilling to concede pantheism even with explicitly stated evidence in the Campaign Setting.

Wanted to address this. That is an oracle not a cleric. A cleric is the servant of a single god. The CS states this, the oracle however is the servant of an"ideal" and is powered by all the gods with that domain.

Yeah, sorry man. A cleric is typically the servant of a single god, and there are other options. You're relying on things that the CS doesn't say to make your argument, and I'm relying on what it does say, which supports the existence of pantheism through philosophies, most obviously through Diabolism and the Green Faith, which precludes the worship of just a single deity. And I've go the Core Rulebook explicitly backing up my argument.

But it's alright that you don't agree! We're still buds! =-)

KenderKin wrote:

A class/character/concept doesn't fit my CS.
So, can't there be just 1 in the whole CS?

No there can not be..of you get no Cheilx war, you get Clerics of man would be all over Rahadoum and may , Razmir WOULD have clerics and would be spreading the 'faith" of the living god.Druma would be full of clerics and not need to rely on magic items for protection, something the CS points out they do, they would have clerics all over the place.

Simply put the CS would be a diffent world if just 1 was possable, as if there is one then faith is all you need and faith is not limited to just one and the CS shows faith is not enough you need a god or god like critter.

This post really revealed to me that my argument has maybe fallen on the wrong side. At no point am I saying that you can get away with being a cleric without worshipping a deity. As in, not giving supplication to any single god. My only argument has been that you CAN be polytheistic in Golarion, and that the philosophies back that up. You obviously CAN'T tap into divine power without a patron of some sort, but I think you could make a concession that you CAN tap into the power of multiple deities through the various philosophies, such as the Green Faith, which probably includes a little Erastil, a little Gozreh, etc.

My point is that the evidence for pantheism is strong, and the rules and CS both back that up. Totally godless, to use the terms bing thrown around? I don't think so. You've GOT TO AT LEAST ask for spells from the gods that back your philosophy or ideals, and that isn't "godless."

Cool!

Bunch of stuff

I hear you, Seeker, and just don't agree. I'm not seeing refutation of what I proposed in your evidence, and certainly don't see "proof" in what the CS doesn't say. I'll stick with what it does state. But we might be arguing different things. Maybe. Point-by-point (and only because this is fun, dude -no snarkiness or ill will here):

1. I agree that there aren't any clerics of Aroden. Not a single one. Because if they are trying to get spells from him, they are dialing a disconnected number. He's dead. I never agreed with some of the above posts that you could get around his death by worsipping the ideals of Aroden instead. That's the whole faith thing that I brought up and that KaeYoss finished off with a great post. Maybe related deities like Iomedae would grant you a boon if you REALLY stuck to those ideals, but then your divine source becomes those philosophical ideals or even Iomedae if you made that switch, but NOT Aroden.

2.Of course there aren't any true clerics of Razmir. He isn't a deity and can't grant spells. Clerics who instead worshipped his proposed ideals would be worshipping those ideals, NOT Razmir, and I somehow doubt he would like that.

3. Rahadoum doesn't have clerics because they are outlawed. It doesn't say that they don't exist in the region, only that they get run off if they pop up. It only says they are outlawed. Someone who has drunk of the Kingdom of Man philosophy kool-aid is going to have faith in that, and the very belief in that philosophy precludes divine supplication or worship.

Listen -I'm not saying at any point here that a cleric can get away without actual worship. They have to, at the very least, pray to the multiple deities that represent their ideals and domains in order to be granted spells, but you seem unwilling to concede pantheism even with explicitly stated evidence in the Campaign Setting. If you've got a pantheistic cleric of, say, good deeds and healing, this guy prays to those sympathetic gods that represent those ideals, and he makes a little sacrifice or saves a little prayer to this one, then that one, and they grant spells because they want those ideals to be promoted in Golarion. I'm not sure how that doesn't fit.

Ultimately, I think what is getting lost here is the FAITH requirement for a character of this class. This isn't about just dipping your feet in the pool and giving lip service to some god. Becoming a cleric is serious stuff, and you have to dive right in to the belief in the god or philosophy of your choice. Whether you do that as the direct vassal of a single god or through the worship of multiple gods in the various philosophies, you've still got the have FAITH in someone or something.

We use the concept of pantheons with a patron deity or two. All divine spells come from a deity in the pantheon. Domains can be chosen or mixed from the two patron gods. The way clerics become ex-clerics and require atonement is when they are untrue to themselves (breaking alignment without a good reason) or blasphemously angering the gods.

This seems more logical in settings where say, the priest of Odin also respects Tyr, Freya, etc... Paladins are still the...

Oh, yeah -totally. I absolutely agree. And KaeYoss has a great entry up there explaining Aroden's demise and why his followers can't just get powers elsewhere, too.

Did we just win D&D? =-)

I know it can be done, but could a viable build exist for a bow-or-crossbow rogue (as compared to, say, a two-weapon-fighting or spring-attacking rogue)?

The problem I am of course encountering is how to trigger sneak attacks past the surprise round and first round of combat. Generating concealment and hiding is an option, but not a very good one since full attacks and rapid shots are right out if I have to spend a move action to hide each round.

I am sure this idea is not a new one... has anyone given much thought to this before? What is the general consensus on the "ranged rogue"?

Without getting into a whole "look at my character" thing, the simple answer is hell yes. Especially if you take 4 fighter levels at some point, which are very, very worth it.

In 3.5, I managed to create the most deadly character our group had seen in a while, and he was a fighter/rogue crossbowman. I ran him through RotRL, and it was crazy. By the end of it, it got to the point where I wouldn't even bother sneak attacking any more.

And he was done by the book in a middle-of-the-road fantasy game, with no third party splatbooks. Just WotC Core with the PF Campaign Setting and Pathfinder players guide for that campaign (for crossbow mastery and big game hunter, specifically). Otherwise, he was just all archer feats, imp. critical, etc. Levels of fighter let him specialize, and he flip flopped between the two until 4th level, then road rogue all the way out.

So, yes, you can do it, and it is fun and effective.

Brandon