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I've read so many posts/threads on how useful they are.... but I just dont see it.

1) Makes the class more MAD
2) Sub-optimal use of 9th level casting
3) Sub-optimal martial
4) Requires big feat investment

I know about the AOO thing using reach, but the big prob is that as a 3/4 BAB class your ability to hit regular AC is going to diminish as you level up and peoples AC starts getting into the high 20s and above. Even if you do hit the amount of damage you're doing is going to be fairly trivial.

What am I missing??


If you took a basic 20 point build with optimised stats and took it through to 8th level and then gave it the appropriate wealth by level amount of GP to spend on items, approx what CR do you think it would merit?

The AP I'm running has some enemy characters that I'm looking at designing from scratch as I think my PCs will run through them. Looking at the database on PFSRD, it seems that the CR is about 1 behind the NPC level, but with these examples they are certainly not optimised in terms of stat arrays and/or items.


Hi all

I'm looking at running a 4 man AP with experienced PCs, I have read some reviews but I wanted to get some more GM/player feedback. Here's what I'm looking for:

1) Good RP/combat balance
2) Hard to complete - I don't have any probs with PC deaths!
3) Goes up to at least 14th level
4) Not too much book keeping
5) Interesting theme
6) Puzzles and trap type stuff

I was initially thinking about Strange Aoens, Age of Worms or Mummy's Mask...

Any ideas or thoughts greatly appreciated!


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I was having a few vodkas with my fellow gamers the other night, we were taking about pure casters in PF and we got chatting..... what would be the optimal starting point for a cleric caster?

Here's my vote:

Samsaran Ecclesitheurge cleric of Mhar

Samsaran = great race for a pure caster (+2 WIS +2 INT... but yes -2 CON)
Wall of Ashes = amazing on-tap debuff
Tunnel Runner = amazing self buffs anytime you are underground
1st level domain powers (combined) = effectively on-tap range attack that will function well at levels 1-4.

Mystic past life = Choose Adept - invisibility, mirror image, web, lightning bolt, polymorph, stoneskin

Ash & Caves = useful spells that cover some weak points in the cleric spell list. The only deity as far as I'm aware that can grant you both.

Access to Dreamed Secrets = 2 Wiz spells/day of anything you fancy

Anyone beat it?


Interesting and ironic to see that In ‘Faiths of Golarion’, one of the last PF1 products, that some love has been directed towards a cleric archetype – the Divine Paragon.

When this archetype came out, it largely struck me as “MEH!” because in many cases the domain powers it traded out were being replaced largely by boons that were underpowered and/or coming into effect too late to be level appropriate. Too many of the deities had limp boons so it wasn’t worth it as an archetype.

In this book, the Divine Paragon (and clerics as a whole to a lesser degree) gets a bit of indirect love because the boons and bonus spells gained by worshipping many of the deities mentioned are actually pretty good – thus making the archetype worthwhile.

The book for me really starts to grasp the whole point of a cleric worshipping a deity… clerics of different deities really should be quite fundamentally different from each other not only in terms of roleplay but also in terms of the available class mechanic. Too many times in PF1, clerics of different deities don’t play out differently in actual gameplay.

Here’s a few examples AON link:

1) Chaldira
Solid domains, a good set of Sentinel boons and a couple of useful low level bonus spells for clerics in general (Mage Hand, Expeditious Retreat).

2) Grandmother Spider
Solid domains, great Exalted boons (including more spells) and a selection of useful low level spells - Silent Image, Ventriloquism, Spider Climb, Web

3) Hei Feng
Solid domains, OK boons (would probably require Diverse Obedience to optimise). However getting Gust of Wind, Lightning Bolt and Hydraulic Push as bonus spells would also mean that any cleric could benefit from worship.

4) Kazutal
Solid domains, great Exalted boons and Beast Shape I-III as bonus spells

5) Nivi Rhombodazzle
Solid domains, great Exalted boons and the breaking of one of the sacred PF1 laws……”A cleric shall not gain access to Greater Invisibility!”

6) Shizuru
Solid domains and a nice set of bonus spells – Tail Strike, Colour Spray (again breaking one of the PF1 laws!), Scorching Ray, Unbearable Brightness, Prismatic Spray. The boons aren’t overall worth it which makes more suitable for general cleric worship rather than the Divine Paragon path.

7) Tsukiyo
Solid domains (Madness for a LG deity yes please!), great Evangelist boons (selective AOE Vision of Madness…. Errrrrm Oh yes!) and a few moderately useful bonus spells.

Kind of bizarre that one of the last books and one dealing with some of the minor/lesser known deities ends up providing some half decent options for a cleric archetype……something that in itself has been IMO sorely lacking in the lifespan of PF1!


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I have to say I'm sorely disappointed by the cleric in the playtest

One of the big gripes people previously had in PF1 was that the cleric was too gish and didn't really provide the 'holy man' pure caster option. And as it was feat starved it didn't allow for any wiggle room.

Looking at the cleric in the playtest....

- Its spell list is now distinctly sub-par compared to PF1.... the divine list has now slipped way down the pecking order
- The domains are in many ways not only lacking in flavor in comparison to PF1 but also in power/effectiveness.
- Paizo has AGAIN continued to hold on to that albatross called channeling.... so many of the class options are geared towards it and to little benefit (or point)

I could go on.....

Overall, the cleric has YET AGAIN been nerfed with a change of edition and is arguably even more gish and healbot than it was in PF1!!! Paizo made a big statement at the beginning of all this saying they realised the PF1 cleric was lacking, but IMHO the class has taken a step backwards.

It is gish and it is a healbot!!

Looking at the bigger picture with the other classes, I cannot see any reason why you would play one!! What purpose do they serve other than to heal?!?

A lost customer I'm afraid..... as I've been saying for years... Paizo just doesn't get the class.

In their heads they just cannot seem to let go of the age old flawed thinking of....cleric = bit of armour + bit of weapon + crap channeling + sub-par caster


I was looking through PFSRD and came upon this archetype for clerics..

Apols if it sounds stupid but how does it work? I get the general picture but how does it work specifically with for example, Animal Domain?

Forbidden Rites

Granted powers from the cleric’s second domain function as if the cleric’s level, Wisdom, and Charisma were 2 lower than normal (minimum level 1) in terms of effect, DC, and uses per day. This also means the separatist doesn’t gain the domain’s higher-level ability until 2 levels later than normal. If the second domain grants additional class skills, the separatist gains these as normal.

Animal domain

Animal Companion (Ex): At 4th level, you gain the service of an animal companion. Your effective druid level for this animal companion is equal to your cleric level – 3. (Druids who take this ability through their nature bond class feature use their druid level – 3 to determine the abilities of their animal companions).

Now I know that you wouldn't get the animal companion until 6th level due to the archetype, but does it also mean that your effective cleric level is -5 as well? I didn't think it did because it says 'Your effective druid level.....'... but then I wasnt sure?


I have posted this in another thread but since I have started dabbling in PFS I thought I would see if I could get a clarification here! As a bit of a PFS newb I didnt want to chip in but then again the player vs GM debate was taking quite a long time on both occasions!

Interestingly, I have just started dabbling in a bit of PFS and on 2 separate occasions I have seen ruled:

Regarding the Lore Spirit (Arcane Enlightenment) and Wandering Spirit combo, that Wandering Spirit DOES NOT over-ride the original mechanics of Arcane Enlightenment... ie) it cannot be used to choose a different set of Wiz spells every day. The core mechanics of Arcane Enlightenment still apply..... one spell can be replaced per level.

The GM's ruled that the core purpose of Wandering Spirit is to allow access to different spirits on a daily basis. Repeatedly accessing the same spirit every day does not over-ride the mechanics... you are in essence still 'wandering' back to the same list.

I have to say at the time, I thought 'Does it really matter in a PFS game?', but then looking at the abilities more carefully it makes perfect sense. If this is not the case then the wording on Arcane Enlightenment is essentially pointless, and also it changes the ability from powerful to OP. In both cases, the game stopped for at least 15 minds to allow the arguing to settle down!

I would love to get a PROPER FAQ ruling on this from a Paizo dev or PFS authority... as opposed to an ongoing cyber flame war!!