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Raging Song wrote:
A raging song counts as the bard’s bardic performance special ability for any effect that affects bardic performances.

I'll take your replies as "yes" on if it does affect them.

The odd logic started when I read the bold parts in this reply. Everyone else's replies, including yours, say only the first part, not really needing to say the bold parts. So I'm like "why are those words even there?"

Thank you.

Bardic Performance wrote:
A bard cannot have more than one bardic performance in effect at one time.
Raging Song wrote:
A raging song counts as the bard’s bardic performance special ability for any effect that affects bardic performances.

Sorry for the odd logic, but does Bardic Performance affect Bardic Performances?

(Yes, I saw this. I just wasn't convinced.)

This is awesome! I was already scary with my Bloodrager limited to before DD levels. XDD

This kind of means I need to have a Draconic Bloodine on my Bloodrager then, right? (As a prerequisite, since I have a class that grants a Bloodline)

Since they're essentially the same, I wonder if the DD's Bite attack would trigger in a Bloodrager's OH MY GOD! WHAT SORCERY IS THIS?!

This is just messed up. Thank you guys. XDD Was just trying to add a flavorful character, and I ended up optimizing.

Thank you, all. ^w^

I don't recall any erratas that allow DD's Blood of Dragon's to affect Bloodrager Bloodlines, but everything else makes sense.

VMC's all bloodline powers still are limited to granting only sorcerer levels, so I don't think it helps bloodragers in any way, unless we can find one that looks, specifically, at sorcerer levels (like looking for Druid levels in a Ranger's animal companion)

Also, for the record, I didn't forget about the instead. That scenario is under Alternative.

However, it seems it makes sense now.

0. Not having sorcerer levels, I have no prerequisit to get a Draconic Bloodline. I get it through DD Instead.

1. I qualify for new powers through DD, and VMC sorc doesn't help me get them faster.

2. When qualifying for new powers, VMC Sorcerer levels don't stack with those from DD's Blood of Dragons, because I have no real sorceror levels, and cannot, in any way, get real sorcerer levels.

3. I use my character level, and that alone, for all bloodline powers that look for sorcerer bloodlines.

I'm hoping these are all correct now.

As mentioned above, I declared Bloodrager (which gets his first Arcane Spell at Level 4), and it being my only other class, it gets the DD's bonus to spells per day.


I find the separate Breath weapons plausible, but Sorc VMC's Bloodline says all bloodline powers. RAW imply it's not restricted to only bloodline powers from the VMC. One can argue that the people can't normally get bloodlines, but I find it odd for them to forget DDs.

Forfeiting my "tied to a class" question:

Variant Multiclassing wrote:
Under the standard rules, multiclassing can lead to a wide disparity in character ability. With this system, each character can choose a secondary class at 1st level that she trains in throughout her career, without giving up levels in her primary class. Once selected, this choice is permanent (though if using the retraining rules, the secondary class can be retrained by paying half the cost of retraining all her class levels).

That should mean I'm stuck gaining the bonuses of Sorc VMC, no matter the multiclassing.


Trying to reword my questions, because I think I'm confusing people.

1. Do I get the Bloodline powers I WOULD gain from Blood of Dragons?

(Current assumption: VMC sorc gave me 2 Bloodline powers, and 1 level in DD gives me the Level 1 Bloodline power through Blood of Dragons)

2. (Forfeited. I don't qualify for new powers through VMC Sorcerer, so I only count Blood of Dragons for new Bloodline powers.)

3. Do I add Blood of Dragon's sorcerer levels to the effective sorcerer level given by Sorc VMC, even when I don't have actual levels in Sorcerer?

(Current assumption: They're separate, and I should use only the higher of the 2)

Also, just to clarify since I feel this being implied:

Is Variant Multiclassing tied to a class or a player?

As in, if I VMC Sorc in Bloodrager, can I VMC rogue when I Multiclass to Ranger?


I'm I stuck with just VMC sorc, no matter the number of multiclassing?


I felt this implied as you said:

RedNeckDevil wrote:

It just lets u continue gaining sorcerer levels in the background instead of stopping because ur not taking levels in the other class.

About #1. DD says I "add" my DD levels to my now available "effective sorceror levels", given to me by the VMC in Sorc.

However, now that you mention it, not having actual sorc levels puts up the alternative, giving me both "effective sorceror levels" and "sorceror levels".

This STILL gives me a redundant source of Bloodline powers though, since I get them from both VMC Sorc and DD. I just don't get them as early.

I get my Level 1 Bloodline Power at level 3 with any class, then I get it again on my first level in Dragon disciple, because I now earn a bloodline, and have a new DD based sorc level sorc.

The word "instead" inside Blood of Dragons will make it annoying though, since that means I can't use the first sentence that allows me to "add" eff Sorc levels "if I don't have Sorc levels".

I get 2 separate sets of Sorc levels, that will confuse everyone without actually being a sorc.

Variant Multiclass wrote:

A character who chooses sorcerer as her secondary class gains the following secondary class features.

Bloodline: At 1st level, she must select a sorcerer bloodline. She treats her character level as her effective sorcerer level for all bloodline powers.

Bloodline Power: At 3rd level, she gains her bloodline's 1st-level bloodline power.

Improved Bloodline Power: At 7th level, she gains her bloodline's 3rd-level bloodline power.

Dragon Disciple wrote:

Blood of Dragons: A dragon disciple adds his level to his sorcerer levels when determining the powers gained from his bloodline. If the dragon disciple does not have levels of sorcerer, he instead gains bloodline powers of the draconic bloodline, using his dragon disciple level as his sorcerer level to determine the bonuses gained. He must choose a dragon type upon gaining his first level in this class and that type must be the same as his sorcerer type. This ability does not grant bonus spells to a sorcerer unless he possesses spell slots of an appropriate level. Such bonus spells are automatically granted if the sorcerer gains spell slots of the spell's level.

Draconic Bloodline wrote:

Breath Weapon (Su): At 9th level, you gain a breath weapon. This breath weapon deals 1d6 points of damage of your energy type per sorcerer level. Those caught in the area of the breath receive a Reflex save for half damage. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 your sorcerer level + your Charisma modifier. The shape of the breath weapon depends on your dragon type (as indicated on the above chart). At 9th level, you can use this ability once per day. At 17th level, you can use this ability twice per day. At 20th level, you can use this ability three times per day.


My character takes a VMC Sorceror, taking Draconic as my bloodline. As mentioned in other forums, I forfeit my Blood Arcana, and have to wait for a few levels before I feel the difference.

Assume I have 7 levels in a different class (Let's say, Bloodrager. But not important, I think). I have my first Bloodline Power at Level 3, and second Bloodline Power at Level 7 as normal.

Talking solely about Bloodline powers, when I get my first level in Dragon Disciple, I feel like these are what would happen:

1. Because I'm effectively above Level 3, I unlock my Bloodline powers AGAIN as an effect of Blood of Dragons, thus allowing me to get 2 Bloodline Mutations (or redundant Abilities that do not stack).

2. Because I'm character Level 8 AND I have Level in DD, my effective sorcerer level now becomes 8 + 1 = 9, giving me access to the Breath Weapon.

3. 2 more Levels in DD makes me 7 Rager, 3 DD. This makes me character level 10, + 3 effective sorcerer levels through Blood of Dragons. I unlock the legit DD Breath weapon (which could have a 2nd use if #2 is correct), and deals 13d6.

Alternative: Because I have no real levels in Sorceror, I, instead, have a redundant Draconic bloodline, which allows me to, maybe, qualify for the level 1 Blood Mutation.

Are any of these correct?

Okay, that clarifies a lot of things. Many thanks. ^w^

Sorceror Draconic Bloodline

Bloodline Arcana: Whenever you cast a spell with an energy descriptor that matches your draconic bloodline's energy type, that spell deals +1 point of damage per die rolled.


Blood Havoc

Whenever you cast a bloodrager or sorcerer spell that deals damage, add 1 point of damage per die rolled. This benefit applies only to damaging spells that belong to schools you have selected with Spell Focus or that are bloodline spells for your bloodline.

This ability replaces the sorcerer's 1st-level bloodline power or the bloodrager's 4th-level bloodline power.


Frost Bite

School transmutation [cold]; Level bloodrager 1, druid 1, magus 1, shaman 1, witch 1

Your melee touch attack deals 1d6 points of nonlethal cold damage + 1 point per level, and the target is fatigued. The fatigued condition ends when the target recovers from the nonlethal damage. This spell cannot make a creature exhausted even if it is already fatigued. You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level.


Although there are so many other spells that are better here, I wanted to use Frostbite, for flavor. (Cross-blood Elemental/Draconic bloodlines make all energy spells potentially fire and boosted)

However, after seeing how Blood Havoc was worded, I'd like to know if Self Buffs do affect these abilities.

So, are Self Buff spells affected by Draconic Bloodline's Arcana, and Blood Havoc?

Do I deal 1d6 + caster level + 2 per punch?


(While, I'm at it, I might as well ask if Natural Attacks do trigger Frostbite's melee touch attack)

I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to do, but if your plan involves needing your opponent to disarm you to get their weapon back...

Actually, I'm making sure the opponent can't get his weapon back. Also, any attempt to get it back means I AoO him.

But you're right. Best carry around an improv weapon rather than hope I can improvize theirs.

Thank you, all, for the input though.

(Why I'm asking this question)

Long story short, I found a way to use Sneak Attack dice on Improvised Weapons using Disarm combat manuevers and Catch Off Guard, as Unarmed opponents are Flatfooted because of this combination.

Part of this build needs me to be unarmed, so the opponent has to Disarm me to get his weapon back.

Unfortunately, I have to multiclass, and thus gain the proficiencies of other weapons.


Are there ways to lose weapon proficiency? Or, at least treat a weapon as if you're not proficient with it?

I know of the Monk of the Empty Hand archetype, but because I multiclass, I gain such proficiencies anyway.

What came to my attention was that dealing non-leathal damage with a lethal weapon has the same -4 penalty as when using a non-proficient weapon. Thus, I would believe something like this is allowed.

Thank you. :)

Thank you for clarifying. Took me some time to find that quote. :)

Magical armor occupies a body slot, and you only have one armor slot.

I would assume that you can wear a +1 chainmail and "Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes" with no problems?

Sorry for the stupidity of these questions, but RAW don't clarify. Armor Bonus stacks with Enhancement Bonus, but if you can wear 2 suits of armor, it can stack a different way.

So, if I wear +4 Leather Armor (+2 AC, +4 enhancement), AND +1 Chainshirt (+4 AC, +1 enhancement), what happens?

Highest AC + Highest enhancement? (+8 AC)


Highest AC total of one suit? (+6 AC)


Also, the total weight is now 40 lbs. Does this mean I'm slowed down by medium armor rules?


How about their enchantments?

I assume if "Highest AC total of one suit" applies, then only the ones of that one appear.

But if not, then does that mean you can stack multiple suits of armor to stack multiple enchantments?