Regarding The Ultimate Combat Errata


Pathfinder Society

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Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

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The errata for Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Combat is now live and in effect for the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild.

The Pathfinder Society team received a heads-up about the imminent errata, and we’ve prepared the following list of changes for characters affected by the errata. Some changes allow rebuilding in the case of a conflict, which might refer to a character with two archetypes that now conflict with one another; a druid with only the lion shaman archetype would not qualify for a rebuild because there is no conflict, though the character would still need to retrain any feats or other options that relied on the woodland stride class ability.

Any “No special action” response denotes that there is no special exception for this change. Check the current playtest and errata rules on page 29 of the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide. If you don’t see a feature listed below, assume that any guidelines in the Guide are in effect, but feel free to ask.

The ghost rager rage power no longer requires the superstition rage power.
Retrain the superstition rage power, if desired.

The luring cavalier’s versatile challenge now replaces demanding challenge.
Rebuild only in case of conflict.

All of the “[animal] shaman” druid archetypes have woodland stride as a replaced feature.
Rebuild only in case of conflict. Note that this change also applies to all other “[animal] shaman” druid archetypes that appear in other publications.

The unarmed fighter archetype’s trick throw replaces the bonus feat at level 8. Takedown now replaces the 12th-level bonus feat, not weapon training 2.
Rebuild only if the character has at least 8 fighter levels and this archetype.

A 13th-level musket master no longer ignores all misfires when using a musket.
No special action

Pistolero loses the ability to reduce Up Close and Deadly to 0 grit.
Retrain any feat used to reduce the cost of this deed, if desired.

A 13th-level pistolero no longer ignores all misfires when using a pistol.
No special action

The mymridarch’s ranged spell strike is clarified.
No special action

The maneuver master monk archetype cannot use flurry of maneuvers when wearing armor or using a shield.
Sell back any armor or shield at full price. Retrain any levels in the monk class, if desired.

The master of many styles monk archetype has a different way of handling the bonus feats.
Rebuild any monk levels if you have the master of many styles archetype. Retrain all feats. Sell back any equipment desired at full market price (based on remaining charges, if applicable).

Terrain Mastery rogue talent no longer boosts all other favored terrains.
Retrain any rogue talents. Retrain any levels in the horizon walker prestige class, if desired.

Hard-Minded advanced rogue talent now works rather differently.
Retrain the rogue talent, if desired.

The Crane Style feat chain has changed.
No special action

Feral Combat Training is slightly more restrictive.
Retrain any features and their prerequisites that would have been modified by Feral Combat Training but no longer apply.

Final Embrace requires a racial constrict feature.
No special action

Improved Snapshot feat only extends the range of the Snapshot feat by 5 feet, not 10.
Retrain Improved Snapshot, Snapshot, and any feat prerequisites.

Sap Adept grants a lower bonus to damage.
Retrain Sap Adept, Sap Master, and any other feats associated with using saps or dealing nonlethal damage. Sell back any saps or associated gear at full cost.

The Sneaking Precision feat now has a large sneak attack prerequisite.
Retrain any levels in a class that grants the sneak attack class feature; alternatively, retrain any other class features (e.g. allowing one to become a single-class rogue or single-class fighter). Retrain any critical feats and Critical Focus.

Kikko and four-mirror armor are more expensive.
No special action, but these errata also apply to the armor in Ultimate Equipment.

Double-barreled muskets can only fire both barrels at once as a standard action.
Retrain any levels in gunslinger (if desired), sell back any associated equipment, and retrain any associated feats.

Scorpion whip got some changes.
No special action

Aklys damage reduced to 1d6.
You can sell back the aklys as full cost. Retrain any associated feats. Note that this damage change applies to the aklys in other books.

The abundant ammunition spell has changed.
Retrain the spell known, if desired. You can sell back any wand or scroll of this spell at full market price (if purchased with Prestige Points, regain 2 PP for a wand with 50 charges, 1 PP for 15–49 charges, or keep it if you have 14 or fewer).

Several “litany” spells have gained some clarification and/or saving throws.
Retrain these spells known, if desired.

The communal stoneskin spell has a higher spell component cost.
Retrain the spell known, if desired.


Do you know yet if the errata will open up any options that were previously banned?

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

Nohwear wrote:
Do you know yet if the errata will open up any options that were previously banned?

When Linda and I were looking over the errata, we spotted nothing that would change the currently allowed options. Those banned options are almost entirely disallowed for flavor reasons or because of reliance on unused rules variants and subsystems (e.g. siege weaponry and vehicles).

Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo aka Chess Pwn

The master of many styles monk archetype has a different way of handling the bonus feats.
Rebuild any monk levels if you have the master of many styles archetype. Retrain all feats. Sell back any equipment desired at full market price (based on remaining charges, if applicable).

So just making sure, retrain all feats means ALL FEATS and not all feats from this class. Am I correct?

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

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Chess Pwn wrote:

The master of many styles monk archetype has a different way of handling the bonus feats.

Rebuild any monk levels if you have the master of many styles archetype. Retrain all feats. Sell back any equipment desired at full market price (based on remaining charges, if applicable).

So just making sure, retrain all feats means ALL FEATS and not all feats from this class. Am I correct?

That is correct. If your character build required X feat at Y level in Z combination, the new master of many styles might not allow that in quite the same way. If getting rid of all of your monk levels is your preference, you should have that opportunity to get rid of any other monk-related feats.

Sovereign Court 5/5 5/55/5

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I'm sad to see a few of these errata, but I'm glad to see this post. Thanks so much for pouring your time into these clarifications.

5/5 Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston

Pity about sneaking precision. I do not think you can get it in PFS, at least easily.

4/5

A Titan Mauler Barbarian can now use two-handed weapons larger than their size would normally permit.

Is there any chance existing Titan Maulers could trade out weapons and/or Feats (like Weapon Focus or Exotic Weapon Proficiencies)?

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

redward wrote:

A Titan Mauler Barbarian can now use two-handed weapons larger than their size would normally permit.

Is there any chance existing Titan Maulers could trade out weapons and/or Feats (like Weapon Focus or Exotic Weapon Proficiencies)?

Hmm, quite possibly. Let me discuss that with a colleague or two, and I can modify the post if appropriate.

4/5

John Compton wrote:
redward wrote:

A Titan Mauler Barbarian can now use two-handed weapons larger than their size would normally permit.

Is there any chance existing Titan Maulers could trade out weapons and/or Feats (like Weapon Focus or Exotic Weapon Proficiencies)?

Hmm, quite possibly. Let me discuss that with a colleague or two, and I can modify the post if appropriate.

Awesome. Thanks for the consideration either way!

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

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The titan mauler barbarian archetype now allows one to wield a larger two-handed weapon.
If desired, a barbarian with this archetype can sell back her weapon and retrain any feats directly associated with that weapon—but only in order to purchase and wield a weapon useable by the updated titan mauler archetype. For example, you can retrain Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword) and Weapon Focus (bastard sword) in order to purchase a Large greatsword.


Improved Snapshot feat only extends the range of the Snapshot feat by 5 feet, not 10.
Retrain Improved Snapshot, Snapshot, and any feat prerequisites.

What about Combat Reflexes? A lot of archers took it as part of the build but it is pointless if you retrain out of the chain.

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

Bigguyinblack wrote:

Improved Snapshot feat only extends the range of the Snapshot feat by 5 feet, not 10.

Retrain Improved Snapshot, Snapshot, and any feat prerequisites.

What about Combat Reflexes? A lot of archers took it as part of the build but it is pointless if you retrain out of the chain.

Sure. Combat Reflexes should have been part of the list.


In the Titan Mauler errata, splicing the sentence permitting oversized two-handed weapon use between sentences dealing with wielding two-handed weapons in one hand seems confusing. As it stands now, the text reads:

UC Errata wrote:
At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. She can use two-handed weapons meant for creatures one size category larger, but the penalty for doing so is increased by 4. However, the weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like.

Would moving that reference to the end not make more sense?

UC Errata wrote:
At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. However, the weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like. She can [also] use two-handed weapons meant for creatures one size category larger, but the penalty for doing so is increased by 4.

2/5 5/5

Does the Double-barreled pistol follow the same change as the Double-barreled musket or was it omitted intentionally?

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

DebugAMP wrote:
Does the Double-barreled pistol follow the same change as the Double-barreled musket or was it omitted intentionally?

It appears this was answered in a very recent FAQ. Those using double-barreled pistols can use the above rebuilding opportunity for double-barreled muskets.


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Let the great nerfing continue!

Overall I seem to have made it through this one.

As a non PFS note since it happens at 13....gunslingers got hosed! Removing the misfire chance ability brings their dpr back down from the stratosphere.


Please don't forget to update the OP with the Combat Reflexes

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Ok so now scorpion whips work as described in the errata? Cool. My half elf bards thank you.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

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uh, that's quite the bonus my Myrmidarch just gained.

Dark Archive

Thank you for putting this much thought and doing this in a less shocking way :)

4/5

Before I ask my question, I have to say I am quite impressed with the quick and awesome response. Thanks John!

Some of the litany spells have saves, which makes scrolls and wands of them pretty underwhelming. Can those be sold?

Dark Archive 5/5 5/55/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Upper Midwest aka Silbeg

I have not looked closely At the errata, but unlike the ACG errata, my characters are fine by these. Thanks for the quick response and PFS notes for these! Really helps to prevent issues later on!

Question... Could the errata and this threat (or better, a document with your notes on it from the first post, etc), be added to the Ultimate Combat section of Additional Resources? Would make finding all again much easier in the future! Thanks John!

Shadow Lodge 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Lieutenant, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka thistledown

I know many gunslingers used a cracked purple ioun stone in conjunction with their wands of abundant ammunition, so that they could reliably activate it themselves. May that be sold back at full price as well?

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

thistledown wrote:
I know many gunslingers used a cracked purple ioun stone in conjunction with their wands of abundant ammunition, so that they could reliably activate it themselves. May that be sold back at full price as well?

Under those circumstances, yes.

Shadow Lodge 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Lieutenant, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka thistledown

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John Compton wrote:
thistledown wrote:
I know many gunslingers used a cracked purple ioun stone in conjunction with their wands of abundant ammunition, so that they could reliably activate it themselves. May that be sold back at full price as well?
Under those circumstances, yes.

Great.

And thank you for having all this ready when the errata went up. Saves a lot of confusion and worry about things.


Wow...maybe we ought to all abandon the Advice forums. It's like the developers took all the builds from the last 2 years, dissected them, and strategically broke them.

No more twf with double pistols for 24 attacks
No more flurry of paws kung foo bears

I am sure there are plenty of other builds out there but those are the 2 that stand out to me from this particular errata. I am even in agreement about some of these changes, especially the gunslingers.

John: Thanks for being on the ball with this! Any other books getting a readjustment that you know of?

Liberty's Edge

I had a gunslinger take a single level of cleric to e able to cast abundant ammunition reliably... I don't suppose I can retrain that level, can I?

4/5 Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka Zoomba

Question, right now a character of mine is in the middle of a PbP scenario and has Sap Adept. Can we complete the game with the feat as it was pre-errata, or should I adjust its effect right now?

Complicating matters is that its a certain scenario-specific pregen from 6-98, meaning retraining is not an option.

Many thanks for the quick updates John. Your quick responses are always really appreciated!

4/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

lots of good things but sheesh I'm going to have to spend a lot of time rebuilding one of my favorite characters (he had a level of maneuver master monk but also wears brawling armor and uses a burglar's buckler so going to have to rethink his build considerably, also have to rebuild his rogue levels to probably unchained rogue so a lot of stuff to redo on that character before I can play him again...)

The Exchange

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Bummer, the favored terrain mastery change just ruined my Warden Ranger3/Slayer3 about to go into Horizon Walker. He was pretty much just an All-Terrain Pathfinder, my ALP.

I am 3 for 3 being affected by the recent erratas. I didn't even think I had these crazy fringe/overpowered builds but I guess I did. Shame on me. These recent errata's are really causing me to lose confidence or desire in playing Pathfinder Society.

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

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Zoomba wrote:

Question, right now a character of mine is in the middle of a PbP scenario and has Sap Adept. Can we complete the game with the feat as it was pre-errata, or should I adjust its effect right now?

Complicating matters is that its a certain scenario-specific pregen from 6-98, meaning retraining is not an option.

Many thanks for the quick updates John. Your quick responses are always really appreciated!

Finish the adventure before applying any errata.

Also, I'm inclined to just use the character's feat as reproduced on the character sheet. It won't ruin how that scenario plays, and it's more confusing to also explain errata on a pregenerated character.

Sovereign Court

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Dude, you guys want to nerf something, leave the Gunslinger archetypes alone and take a go at the Alchemist. I recently watched some grenadier build all but solo The Ruby Phoenix Tournament with his bow launched touch attack toppling force bombs. Now THAT'S deserving of some nerfing by errata.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Wrong forum for that complaint. PFS doesn't make the changes. The Design Team does.

4/5

Quote:

Final Embrace requires a racial constrict feature.

No special action

Regarding this, I believe the reason this was changed was because characters would use Anaconda's Coils to qualify for Final Embrace.

I know of at least two PFS characters using this particular trick. One of them is mine, but he's in a PbP and will be retiring afterwards on the off-chance he survives. The other is the honorable Bruno Breakbone of legend.

Something like "you may sell back at full price any equipment used to qualify for a feat that has changed" might work?

But I'm not looking to press my luck after the Titan Mauler addition.

4/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

how can a PC get a racial constrict feature? (or is Final Embrace a feat that only animal companions or Eidolons could take?)


So the new errata on ultimate combat clarified that scorpion whip and whip are two separate proficiencies and have rendered my level 9 Warpriest/Lore Warden whip build currently unable to use a whip and all of his whip mastery feats now illegal. What are my options? I am in the middle of an Emerald Spire campaign and no characters can take his place. Can I switch deities? Do I have to retrain to do that? Is it free or do I have to pay for it?

Silver Crusade

PolydactylPolymath wrote:

In the Titan Mauler errata, splicing the sentence permitting oversized two-handed weapon use between sentences dealing with wielding two-handed weapons in one hand seems confusing. As it stands now, the text reads:

UC Errata wrote:
At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. She can use two-handed weapons meant for creatures one size category larger, but the penalty for doing so is increased by 4. However, the weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like.

You added the errata to the wrong entry. It is supposed to be applied to Massive Weapons not Jotungrip.

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

Demos Titus wrote:
So the new errata on ultimate combat clarified that scorpion whip and whip are two separate proficiencies and have rendered my level 9 Warpriest/Lore Warden whip build currently unable to use a whip and all of his whip mastery feats now illegal. What are my options? I am in the middle of an Emerald Spire campaign and no characters can take his place. Can I switch deities? Do I have to retrain to do that? Is it free or do I have to pay for it?

I inquired with the design team about that particular point and discussed my concerns about the wording. Based on the conversation, I suspect there might be clarification on the matter soon. I can check in with them tomorrow.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5

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I just want to join the chorus thanking you for
1) having these rebuild rules be available as the errata is released
2) being so generous in the rebuild options you're allowing.

I don't think any of my characters are negatively affected but I still very loudly applaud what you're allowing

Grand Lodge

Well, the only characters of mine this affects are the ones wearing Kikko armor, and with that, while unlikely to have an actual affect, I do have a question.

If I have Masterwork Kikko and want to enchant it to something, is the total item price based on my purchase price, or the new normal purchase price for purposes of Fame requirements? If the new, do I have to pay that extra amount?

I have a whipmaster that, unlike many, is completely unaffected by the scorpion whip change because I never bothered to use a scorpion whip. I just took the feats as soon as I could to allow lethal damage with a regular whip.


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What exactly was the point of destroying Feral Combat Training?

It was a neat feat, to be sure, but was not very abusable, and took quite a bit of effort and counting as a Fighter to get really good.

Now it's just basically a total wash of a Feat.


Tamec wrote:
You added the errata to the wrong entry. It is supposed to be applied to Massive Weapons not Jotungrip.

My apologies. That makes much more sense.

The Exchange

i have a ninja 7/gunslinger 1/arcanist 1 who is focused on using sap master with a double barreled pistol doing a full attack during the surprise round for max damage. the level of arcanist is there to enable me always acting in surprise round, and all of my feats and ninja talents are used for either the gun or for maxing nonlethal damage. my question is, can i also retrain my ninja talents, any archetypes taken to enable this build (bandit) and possibly the arcanist level. i assume there are multiple rogue players out there who have taken at least the combat trick talent in order to make sap master better, so being able to retrain talents in this case would be nice for them as well.

as an aside, i wholeheartedly agree with these nerfs. i had refrained from combat with this guy for the last few levels, except in cases where the table agreed we just wanted to get through the fight quickly. doing a minimum of 402 damage during the surprise round is pretty lame, and i assume not fun for people.

Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo aka Chess Pwn

Drake Brimstone wrote:

Well, the only characters of mine this affects are the ones wearing Kikko armor, and with that, while unlikely to have an actual affect, I do have a question.

If I have Masterwork Kikko and want to enchant it to something, is the total item price based on my purchase price, or the new normal purchase price for purposes of Fame requirements? If the new, do I have to pay that extra amount?

I have a whipmaster that, unlike many, is completely unaffected by the scorpion whip change because I never bothered to use a scorpion whip. I just took the feats as soon as I could to allow lethal damage with a regular whip.

As per the rules in the guide you sell the armor back at it's full old price and then buy whatever armor you want. so if you're wanting to keep the kikko, you have to pay the difference in cost now.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

First I have no problems with the Errata, some make me smile (looking at you double barrel pistol) and some make me a little sad (sap adept , prolly gonna keep it though) A pair raised some questions:

Communal waterwalk is lower level then waterwalk?

Crane Riposte mentions deflecting an attack with crane wing, but the text for Crane Wing no longer has anything about deflecting

Silver Crusade 5/5

josh Newton wrote:

First I have no problems with the Errata, some make me smile (looking at you double barrel pistol) and some make me a little sad (sap adept , prolly gonna keep it though) A pair raised some questions:

Communal waterwalk is lower level then waterwalk?

Crane Riposte mentions deflecting an attack with crane wing, but the text for Crane Wing no longer has anything about deflecting

I haven't downloaded the updated UC yet, but I'm guessing Crane Wing still has the ability to deflect an attack while total defensing, which is what Crane Riposte is referring to.

Edit: Just double checked the errata, and the errata only changes the first two sentences of Crane Wing, so it still has the total defense option to auto-deflect an attack.

Dark Archive 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
chbgraphicarts wrote:

What exactly was the point of destroying Feral Combat Training?

It was a neat feat, to be sure, but was not very abusable, and took quite a bit of effort and counting as a Fighter to get really good.

Now it's just basically a total wash of a Feat.

This is not the right forum for discussion on the rules changes; see the Pathfinder RPG forums.

In general:

This is great! Answering these questions as the errata is released will save a watershed of questions for us GMs. Thank you John!


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To be clear, a Master of Many Style's monk can no longer use bonus feats to gain feats in a Style slots line without qualifying for them, but can use Wildcard slots to gain those feats, but MUST qualify for them in that case?

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

josh Newton wrote:

First I have no problems with the Errata, some make me smile (looking at you double barrel pistol) and some make me a little sad (sap adept , prolly gonna keep it though) A pair raised some questions:

Communal waterwalk is lower level then waterwalk?

Crane Riposte mentions deflecting an attack with crane wing, but the text for Crane Wing no longer has anything about deflecting

Just going to go into the Communal Water Walk spell, which was changed because Water Walking is already a multiple target spell. Communal Water Walk is worse, so it actually was made a lower level spell. They decided that that was a better option than just removing it as the mistake it was.

Water Walk
3rd level spell, 1 creature touched/level, 10 min./level

Water Walk, Communal
Target creatures touched
This spell functions like water walk, except you divide the duration in 10-minute intervals among the creatures touched.

Other than not having an explicit cap on the number of creatures touched, which would be one per level at most, anyhow, due to splitting a 10 min./level duration in 10 minute increments; it is not as good. Water Walk gives that 10 min./level duration to all creatures touched.

So, 50 minutes for a 5th level caster. 5 creature with 10 minutes each, for a 2nd level slot, or 5 creatures for 50 minutes each, for a third level slot.

Best use would be a single target, so max duration for a lower level slot. Might be okay, if you know for a fact, that you can get across the liquid within 10 minutes, combat interruption or no, so you save a third level slot.

Scroll (min caster level)
30 minutes, split up to 3 targets, for the communal version, now, 150 gp
50 minutes, up to 5 targets, for a Water Walk scroll, 375 gp

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