Staggering the amount of mini's they are going to have to produce for this though if we're just talking Vampire Pledge with no extras and ignoring everyone else who gets mini's both below and above. as of right now that's 217 x 10,037 = 21,708,029. And that's just the base for Vampire level pledges.
I think you added in an extra digit there, just calculated myself based on some recent numbers:
223 figures x 12040 Vampire levels = 2,684,920 miniatures Reaper needs to make to support the Vampire pledges alone. Not to count the tons and tons of options everyone is going after, the other reward levels, or if people are opting Sophie out for multiple figures.
Which is a bit higher than their current pledge level of $2,492,795.
So, I can see why the stretch goals have been creeping up and up and up.
Reaper has also announced that after the KS ends there will be a Pledge Manager app of some sort. This will allow you to allocate your pledge dollars and, more importantly, add additional money to you pledge. While this won't count towards getting new stretch goals unlocked it will allow you to defer some of the cost to a little bit later (they plan to have all pledges allocated within 30 days of the KS close).
In other words if you can afford $1 right now in a couple of weeks you can up your pledge to $100 (or whatever) and still get all of the minis at the Vampire level + whatever bonus minis you want as well. While Reaper has stated they would much rather people pledge now they are perfectly willing to accept these additional add-ons.
Really???? Is this true? If so, that's awesome!!!!
I just want to be sure this is 100% accurate before I do it and get my hopes up (I'm emotionally fragile :)
Pretty much confirmed on Reaper's forum. So, yep, you can pledge $1 now and up to Vampire later. (I'd like to hope people pledge more than a buck to help hit those stretch goals, but I realize not everyone has a stack of cash laying around this soon after GenCon.)
Also, the Reaper Pledge Manager is supposed to accept alternate payment options like PayPal, which makes me wonder if I can use PayPal's Bill Me Later to amass an army of fire giants, hydras, etc.
I'd actually be pretty stoked to pull multiples of these three preview figures; very unique sculpts that still have a lot of re-usability (bandits, other adventurers, henchmen, etc). I do love me some monsters, but good PCs are hard to find. One of the problems I had with DDM was finding good but diverse PC/NPC figures; Xeph Soulknives and Shadar-Kai Warriors don't really do it for me. This week's preview minis I really like. They're very dynamic, but also generic enough that a half-dozen of them will still find tabletop play.
What I'm not so hot about are figures like Aldern and Lucrecia---those would be disappointing rares for me, I'd probably trade those off for something flashier that I'd use more often. I know some people really like them, but they're too case-specific for me.
Though, on the topic of humanoid miniatures, there's three areas I think DDM had such poor coverage of that I hope Pathfinder Battles can improve on:
1.) More usable casters at common/uncommon rarity. DDM only had, what, two or three useful druids, and one of them was a rare (Greenfang). And I couldn't pull wizards for the life of me, had to shell out for the rare Adventuring Wizard. Even though I'm not fond of the sculpts, the Heroes & Monsters human druid and elf wizard were a step in the right direction.
2.) More female figures. I'm glad Pathfinder Battles has plenty of gender diversity thus far. I've ended up with numerous players running female PCs, and digging through my collection to find a passable figure for them was a headache.
3.) More halflings and gnomes. Maybe it's just that making small figures is a logistical hassle, but DDM barely covered the core classes for these. I have scads of humans, elves, dwarves, yet maybe a half-dozen different halflings and gnomes (and I was heavy into DDM from Archfiends to Desert). On more than one occasion I had to substitute my horde of Snig the Axes for various small humanoids.
TL;DR: Monsters are cool, PCs are cool, the Runelords set looks incredible, keep making awesome miniatures.
My guys loved that part too. They backed a rooster and it lost in a close battle that had the entire table on edge as one player effectively rolled off against me.
They lost, adopted the rooster and had him as a mascot for a while. Then they traded him in for one called Red Ripper who I think may have become dinner.....
Definitely a fun one and you don't really need the fight at the end. I just dropped it off as I wanted to have a non-combat encounter. I re-used the cock fighting a couple of times.
That's awesome! My guys were also on the edge of their seats when rolling for the epic chicken battle; I let each side choose a champion to roll for their chicken. The guy rolling for Cornugon had been rolling ones all night, so the immediate critical fumble shouldn't have been a huge surprise. Was still pretty intense.
I seriously considered adding in more cockfighting rings to see if they'd test Muddy Lyza's mettle again, but I never got around to it. Maybe their faction will be running them, and invite the PCs to enter their reigning champ.
I agree, the fight at the end is pretty unnecessary. That my players resorted to diplomacy made it go smoother.
Running Legacy of Fire took me over a year. The number of sessions we had is pretty skewed---this was during college, mostly during breaks, so we pulled 5-10 hour runs a lot of the time, and went from weekly sessions to 1-3 times per month---but I'd estimate we spent around two months per module. The first three books took 10-12 sessions each; four and five took around 15-20 each (sandbox demi-plane and mega-dungeon); they breezed through the last module in two nights.
Currently running Serpent's Skull; six players, 4.5 hour weekly sessions, slow track with some additional content. We've been playing since mid-September, with a lengthy holiday vacation, and are about to start the third module. By my count, it's been 15 sessions so far.
Had some friends running Runelords and Kingmaker; both of those took over a year to get to around module 4 (I forgot where they ended up stopping in both cases). They were also running extended sessions weekly. And Kingmaker had several false starts. Meanwhile, my ex-roommate took about six months to get through the fourth book of Crimson Throne; knowing him, it was weekly or biweekly for ~4 hours per session.
It also depends on how fast you go though things, whether your group gets into extended roleplaying, if you add extra encounter areas or expand the Path as written, how long your sessions are, how often you play, which specific Path you're running (expect Kingmaker or Serpent's Skull to last quite a while from their sandbox nature), etc...
Water Challenge The kelpie's "captivating lure" ability - is it really a single save and then the kelpie gets to go to town on the victim that fails? It says that a "victim within 5 feet of the kelpie simply stands and offers no resistance to its attacks.
It really depends on how much of a hard-nose GM you want to be. Rules-As-Written, it's a save-or-suck:
PRD wrote:
Captivating Lure (Su) Once per day, a kelpie can use a powerful mental attack to lure in a single creature within 60 feet. The target must make a DC 16 Will saving throw or become captivated by the kelpie, thinking it is a desirable woman in mortal danger or (if in hippocampus or horse form) a valuable steed. A victim under the effects of the captivating lure moves toward the kelpie using the most direct means available. If the path leads it into a dangerous area such as through fire or off a cliff, that creature receives a second saving throw to end the effect before moving into peril; the victim does not consider water a dangerous area, and will enter the water even if it cannot swim or breathe. A captivated creature can take no actions other than to move toward the kelpie and defend itself, even if it is drowning. A victim within 5 feet of the kelpie simply stands and offers no resistance to its attacks. This effect continues as long as the kelpie is alive and the victim is within 1 mile of the kelpie. This is a mind-affecting charm effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.
So, RAW, it's one save unless the PC is lead into a dangerous area, water excluded. But you could be nice and say that the PC gets a second save attempt, or that the Kelpie made the PC swim by some scary giant man-eating clams or something which would trigger the "dangerous area" clause.
Loreg wrote:
Wind Challenge It's a DC 20 climb check on the easy side of the cliff, which is 500 feet tall! My party spent 30 minutes discussing whether it was possible to get anyone up there safely (best climbers in the party are +8 and +10 - so one could climb it if he took off his gear) much less the entire party and if they got one person up there could they avoid getting pummeled by what they believed would be a pretty big and unhappy bird. It struck my group as an unrealistic challenge and they were ready to chuck it (I downgraded the DC because I wanted to get the dream combat in). Did anyone else have mechanical issues with this challenge?
I've noticed that Adventure Paths can be really hard or really easy depending on how each individual party is built. My group debated between having the druid wildshape and fly up there, or making the monk take 10 with his +11 climb, or leapfrogging up their rope of climbing (loot from the Shiv) in sixty foot intervals, but in the end just sent the eidolon since it had a climb speed.
TBH, if your group doesn't have a way around the module as written--in the case of the 500-foot drop and DC 20 climb--I'd say just change it to something more within their possibilities. If they don't have all sorts of special mobility powers, an eighty-foot drop and DC 14-16 climb check is just as intimidating, but actually something they could do.
Some of my players have been heckling me to post this little snippet, so here it is.
So, the group's en route to Kalabuto and stumbles upon Rickets and his mobile cockfighting ring. Now, the party as a whole isn't too interested in this whole gambling thing, since it sounds like a good way to throw money away, so most of the PCs shrug and decide to continue on down the trail. That looks to be the end of that encounter.
But wait! The party oracle is the new guy, essentially a freelancing sightseer-for-hire always on the lookout for a fast buck, and he decides to slap down a bet on one of the chickens---Muddy Lyza, being the plucky underdog and all. And the druid decides to back him up, and slaps down another bet on Muddy Lyza.
Well, the rest of the party isn't going to take that sitting down, so the monk, wizard, fighter, and summoner all pool up a bet on Cornugon, Reigning Champion, Fighting Chicken Extraordinaire. So the oracle and druid up their bets on Muddy Lyza. And the rest of the party bets more on Cornugon. In about five minutes of real time, they've bet up around 100 gp on each bird.
And that's when it goes stupid. The two halves of the party decide to buff their chickens when nobody's looking. The druid and oracle decide to drop a few buff spells on Muddy Lyza, giving it barkskin, shield of faith, magic fang, and a couple others. The rest of the party buffs Cornugon with mage armor and bull's strength. This buff-casting escalation eventually reaches a form of Détente, and the two groups agree not to 1.) enlarge the chickens, or 2.) heal the chickens, or 3.) summon non-chicken monsters to eat said chickens.
I thought they'd be a little disappointed to find out the chickens they were buffing had but 3hp and 4hp, but no; that just made this murder-sport all the more more thrilling. Cut to critical botch on behalf of Cornugon, the Ur-Chicken, Ruler of the Henhouse, followed up by a critical hit from Muddy Lyza, Victorious Underdog. One of the most intense four-round combats I've seen in a while.
Needless to say Rickets wasn't real pleased at all this interference and refused to pay anybody; the oracle managed to talk him down and keep his thugs from attacking. Meanwhile, the druid ran off with Muddy Lyza (and is still using it as an animal messenger), and the oracle managed to save Cornugon from both bleeding out and being eaten by the eidolon.
So what looked to be a throw-away encounter turned out to be one of the most ridiculously memorable ones in the module. The entire episode took up over an hour of game time; that session was all salt mine and chickens.
Moral: No matter what you might think of an encounter as-written, it is very possible for it to become fun and memorable.
Concordia/Patrick, I feel bad that you guys felt gypped on the map folio. Given the sandbox nature of half the modules, those poster maps are a godsend for tracking where the PCs are heading; I've got the Saventh-Yhi one in a cheapo frame and I can't wait to flop down that sucker next week and tell the players "Alright, here you are, now what are you doing."
Though I know what you mean about lack of encounter maps; I'm getting tired of cranking out 3-5 encounter locales off the top of my head and scrawling them on my friend's MegaMat every week. I really need to invest in some gaming paper and map ahead of time, or break down and buy some relevant GameMastery packs.
Lack of maps is a huge weakness of this Path and part of the reason it's so GM intensive. I love maps, and the Serpent Skull modules are so mapless that they feel empty a lot of the time.
Jenner2057 wrote:
Something like that. But none of my PCs backgrounds really ended up supporting those ideas. Plus my PCs were just fine with the motivation of glory and wealth for finding the city (largely driven by my scholar/Pathfinder character leading the group. That helped)
That's a shame, really. I have a Shoanti druid who headed to the Mwangi following a totem-vision. So I started feeding him more visions of shadows and serpents to foreshadow/flesh out the background.
Also had a Shoanti oracle heading to Sargava with a Gorumskagat to spread the faith, but the player dropped (work-related), which was a real shame... I had planned a lot around his character for Eleder, but he dropped before they got off the Shiv.
(Not sure why, but the Shoanti were the ones with detailed character backgrounds and who roleplayed the most. The rest are all gold and glory adventurers, which didn't give much to work with.)
Jenner2057 wrote:
This was a struggle I had early on as well. The idea that some of the tribes CAN be talked with wasn't immediately evident. It didn't help that my PCs went from the Merchant district (with no dominant tribe) to the Government district (with the serpentfolk that have a zealous hatred of humans) and saw the Government faction waging war against the charou-ki. This gave them a slanted view of the valley that everything here would have to be fought.
An effort to overcome that was part of what motivated me to have the Consortium ally with the boggards and Mantis ally with the troglodytes. To show them that genocide against the non-humans wouldn't be required.
And, though it's not so evident now, the PCs may very well WANT these tribes around in book 6 to form an army. Slaughtering them all now could make book 6 much more difficult. Shrug. Wanted to at least give them the option.
Since I know my players read the forums...:
I made a few hints that the natives (and possibly other factions) could be "coerced or intimidated to serve the PCs," but since the party lacks a real diplomacy character, I'm kind of curious to what they'll do. Push comes to shove, I'll go to town tweaking; I'm not real interested in the grind of "Slay 769 one-hit-die vegepygmies to claim district x." Plus district genocide would push the native groups to get help from, say, a rival faction who'd just love to explore without worrying about native attacks.
Having the other factions ally with the natives is a fantastic idea, but I did't want to start demarcating what districts are working with the party's nemeses (e.g., are prema-hostile) ahead of time, so whichever groups of natives the players start pounding on will find welcome allies in the Red Mantis and Aspis Consortium. Possibly also the Pathfinders given the PCs' relationship with them so far.
I've been planning to amp up the faction strife and intrigue, between the natives, players, and other factions, so multiple districts will eventually run red. Red Mantis hit squads, serpentfolk skulduggery directed by Yarzoth, groups discovering and activating their spears, maybe a trog rebellion. Lot of ideas, playing it by year.
Also hoping (knock on wood) to expand the campaign out to level 20 using the "continuing the campaign" material in Sanctum/Serpent God, and when the enemy armies rear their heads, the players could sure use a lot of bipedal humanoid thugs to make armies out of. My guess is most of the exploration factions will be obliterated by that point, or will have merged/been captured. And if the group beats down the boggards and troglodytes they'll be in a real tight spot when the serpentfolk or Gorilla King starts marching in.
Thanks, those are awesome. I'll be cribbing those and adding in a few of my own, to foreshadow some group-specific stuff.
Jenner2057 wrote:
One thing I would have done different is to have the PCs "roll" and automatically give them the Radiant Muse mystery (number 10 on my list) as their first mystery.
Good idea; I was planning on giving the party that one early on, before they get to her district, to try and indicate that not everything in the city is out to eat them.
Ran this two sessions ago instead of the ziggurat as written, and I think it went over pretty well with the group. I was pleased with it, at any rate.
Some thoughts:
Spoiler:
- The leveled serpentfolk in the first room add up to quite a high CR. I have a large group too, though they were only level 6: six characters plus animal companion plus eidolon, two of them very optimized builds, and the rest are casters. It was a decent challenge for them without being too deadly, and I've been using the leveled serpentfolk stats in subsequent encounters. But a more standard party of four would have a world of trouble.
- The gem puzzle was nice and complex, and has a good logic to it, though the players ended up plowing through via trial and error. After the first mess-up, they started overthinking it, and this new-found caution meant they got the answers correct the next time.
- After finding the idols, and realizing the one moonstone they'd found was a piece of the puzzle, one of my players said "Man, we're going to have to search all over for these things... I'd be very disappointed if they were all in the same place." This was right before they opened the door to fight Isslar, after having explored most everything else, so he got a very unpleasant glare. If I ran it again, I'd spread the gems out across Taizon... maybe one in the well and one in the tower, and add some more traps guarding them to make up for the low-level charau-ka mobs.
- The rebuilt X2/trapped puzzle room? It is awesome, and properly Indiana Jones-like. The poison gas was an excellent touch. There was a frantic scramble where everyone ran for a corner/cast fly, except for the one character stuck fiddling with plaque. And we saw the fighter and animal companion take a nose dive into the pit, and subsequently get gassed. They survived, and ended up racing the gas to the platform via a rope of climbing and skill checks.
- My one complaint with it, though, was rolling the 3d12 to determine which blocks rolled out; maybe I just can't roll worth a darn, but they spent half a dozen rounds waiting for the one door to open so they could grab the last plate they needed. I ended up just moving random blocks I hadn't moved in a couple of turns and foregoing the dice since I rolled so bad.
- My players weren't really sure how a golden plate symbol of a blindfold would work, since it's a really awkward image. I realize it's got symbolic value, in the tarot and elsewhere; I ended up saying it was a blindfolded face, not a blindfold itself.
- Getting to the map room, they again resorted to trial and error in their attempts to make the gems fit. I had to prod them to remember the earlier idols' phrases and astronomy theme, and they got the first one correct. They kept wanting to put the moonstone in the star sapphire's slot, for both puzzles, but after that they figured it out.
- There's nothing that says what happens after the gems have been inserted, so I ruled that they were stuck in, a few lone lights in a dark, abandoned temple, pointing the way to Saventh-Yhi.
Like I said, it went over really well; one of my players really liked that it was challenging and made them think, and that it was a nice change of scenery from all the combat encounters.
For non-core content, I'm surprised nobody mentioned that the Path uses (well, has sidebars for using) the Faction Guide. It's mostly optional, but since the PCs will be associated with a faction, it gives some easy predetermined benefits/rewards.
Though you aren't out much if you don't have it. My group, affiliated with the Shackles Pirates, took one look at the Faction Guide entry, sighed, and put it away. I have the feeling they'll end up with a ton of unspent points and blow them on high-level spellcasting, though the Shoanti druid wants to use PA to have the pirates sack Varisian ports and intercept trade routes.
Other than that, yeah, there's the occasional enemy with content from APG or Tome of Horrors, but all the important non-core info is provided in their stat blocks. And I agree with what others have stated; the modules have much potential, but as written, several of them are dull and need a lot of work.
Just wanted to bop in and say that this thread, amongst others, has been incredibly helpful for campaign planning. I knew going in that the Path would need a lot more GM legwork than I did for Legacy of Fire, but I've ended up putting more work into it than my homebrew campaigns. Which just feels odd, but hopefully has a big payoff.
Just finished Racing to Ruin, which in hindsight I should have put a lot more work into than I did, as I've been prepping for City of Seven Spears and Vaults of Madness since day one. After actually reading CoSS all the way through, I think it has a ton of potential, and have high hopes for it. At first I thought it would be a banal grind in vegepygmy genocide, but with the faction strife, the discoveries, conquering the districts, serpentfolk skulduggery (I took Yarzoth as the recurring villain), the big ruined city sandbox, there's a lot to work with.
Jenner2057 wrote:
- Depending how you're handling mysteries, consider setting a max of 8 to 10 in a district. I have them on slips of paper and hand them out and think I had about 40 (combined some and added some more foreshadowing for books 4-6)
Could you by any chance post these discovery handouts or give some examples? I love the idea, and started coming up with my own, but am kind of curious what you did with them.
Just started running this last week. First session went pretty good. They're still stumbling around on the Shiv, trying to follow the coastline south-southwest.
The party is as follows:
Akker Silver Claw, Shoanti Druid, with his bear companion Bellow. Favored by the Shoanti spirit ancestors by visions and a silver bear claw found in his rite of passage; the spirits are now guiding him south. Going to focus on wildshape when he gets it.
Vanua, Oread Monk of the Sacred Mountain, paid her trip south as a bodyguard to the ship's "valuable cargo."
Korgoth, Shoanti Barbarian, prophet of Gorum, heading south to act as a missionary for Gorum by taking the Gorumskagat to the southern lands. He's also more metal than the rest of the group combined. Heading towards Oracle > Rage Prophet.
Hauk, Half-Orc Fighter, member of the Jenivere's crew.
Aldis Stein, Half-Elf Wizard, a city boy from Absalom who's leaving home to explore the Mwangi Expanse with wide-eyed enthusiasm. Hoping to one day join the Pathfinder Society.
Erethemos, Elven Summoner, with his imaginary friend turned Eidolon Lash, heading south as a member of the Jenivere's crew.
That said, while I like that a lot of the Golarion secrets aren't explained in detail (how the test of the Starstone works and the death of Aroden for starters) so that GMs have the freedom to run them how they'd like, I am itching to know the designers' opinions for them. I can see why they might never be revealed, though, since it would end up going from authorial speculation to canonical fact right fast.
There’s too much to like about Pathfinder to restrict me to ten things, so I took it up to eleven. (Also, some of my dislikes are heavy hitters, so I only came up with nine, even though they cropped up in other people’s lists.)
Spoiler:
Love:
1. It’s based on d20.
2. Backwards-compatible! I have the option to use the six metric tons of 3.x material I already own! At this point, conversion is pretty easy for me, and having all those books still be regularly used is awesome.
3. Adventure Paths. 80% solid gold, 20% great ideas/material to build off of. There’s no bad path, and no path I wouldn’t run, only parts that I’d tweak (the middle of Serpent’s Skull for example).
4. The aesthetic and production values. The 3.5 “rusty tomes dungeonpunk” didn’t do much for me. Pathfinder’s art (Wayne Reynolds!) and the art direction is top notch, particularly the adventure path themes. The new World Guide is one of the best looking RPG books.
5. Few dead levels means there’s a reason to play the core classes. When you can actually play a Paladin or Ranger past level 6, you’ve done something right.
6. Archetypes mean less pres-class bloat! They’re an all-around awesome idea for customizing the core classes, which (see #5) helps emphasize the core classes as being more playable than they were in 3.5.
7. CMB and CMD. Why have multiple systems for combat maneuvers when they all fit under one simple mechanic?
8. Simplified skill system. There’s no reason in the world to have three skills, two passive and one active, to determine your awareness.
9. Forum participation. When I browse through a thread and see the adventure’s author, James Jacobs, and a handful of other Paizo people posting… that’s just plain awesome.
10. Open Beta. The new stealth one is a great example. Instead of just throwing ideas around behind the scenes, Paizo is pretty open about getting customer (err, player) feedback. Great business model, plus the fans feel their input is valued.
11. Bestiary 2. Probably the best monster book for d20 that I’ve bought, and the most-used, barring Advanced Bestiary. And there’s Bestiary 3 on the way…
I can go either way on:
1. It still feels like D&D. Vancian magic, dungeons, tactical combat, iconic save-or-suck spells (sleep, color spray), etc. I’m kind of meh on most of that, but they’ve been a part of the game for so long that it doesn’t feel like D&D without them.
2. Some of the nerfs on 3.5 “power” features. Namely Druid’s wildshape, spiked chains, and the lower-level sor/wiz spell nerfs (glitterdust, web, et al). Casters definitely needed a balance tweak, but it didn’t really solve caster supremacy, it just pushed it back until after the sweet spot. And spiked chain abuse was talked about more than actually used in play.
Hate: (or, strongly dislike)
1. It’s based on d20.
2. De-emphasizing templates and monster advancement. Yes, it was horribly bloated in 3.5, and I can still use my 3.5 material, and there are always munchkins with half-dragon half-demon half-shoggoth robot ninja pirates. But as a GM, modifying monsters on the fly is the best part of d20. (The paths regularly tap the excellent Advanced Bestiary, so it’s not like Paizo has a blanket-ban on them. Come on, publish more!)
3. The UC classes. Ninja and Samurai are archetypes that escaped their boundaries and somehow became classes; also, they’d work a lot better in a Tian world guide, since they stick out like a sore thumb in Golarion. Gunslinger is awesome, up until you get to the firearms rules. (Ranged touch, fast BAB, seriously?! Low range increments do help, as does ammo capacity and price, but it’s still a bit overpowered.)
4. Instead of pres-class and template bloat, there’s other bloat flavors: archetype, feat and spell bloat. This wouldn’t be so much of a problem, until it’s combined with…
5. Balance or lack thereof, particularly in how a chunk of UM/UC, and parts of the APG, don’t feel like they got the playtesting or editing they needed. And I’m not just singling out Antagonize, Terrible Remorse, etc. Parts are just badly worded or underpowered. There’s a lot of badly balanced material in those three books which needs errata or clarifications, but hasn’t got any yet.
6. Actually, the splatbooks in general. Don’t get me wrong, I really, really like parts of them. The parts I don’t like make me grind my teeth, and are the parts I remember (because people want to use them). Despite the relatively slow output compared to WotC, the above bloat and balance issues make me see 3.x all over again. Which sucks, because Paizo did so well balance-wise for so long, and the adventures/APs haven’t had a dip in quality control.
7. Monks are either broken gods of awesomeness, or are completely and utterly useless. And from experience, usually fall into the latter category.
8. Christmas tree effect still very much alive. I actually think it’s cool that you can make magic items, yet I’ve never seen anybody do it. Instead, they just go out and buy/upgrade their existing stuff to the point where the First Vault gets jealous.
9. Fanboys and edition wars. Seriously, it’s getting old. Compared to the other game systems I run, Pathfinder and 4e are all but identical.
