Zestlian's page

I would point out that as a judge at the described table I would ask the 5 and 4 to strongly consider starting a second character or find a different mod that slot. If they did not and forced most of the table to play way up then I would let them have it. The low level guys would get a chance to flee because they didn't cause this. The high level guys would likely eat the raise dead costs and also not get much in the way of the gold for the mod unless they got really lucky. If it happened soon enough I might even allow the rest of the players to continue the mod at the lower tier. The goal is to get new people into the game after all.

Wow. This is probably the most worrisome statement I have ever come across in all my years, er, decades of gaming.

Point 1: I acknowledge and can even understand your goal. It is an admirable goal to have. I have a very different goal in mind... My personal goal is to try to have fun and encourage others to have fun. I acknowledge my goal may be different than every other player's, judge's, GM's, staff member's, and/or convention goer's goal or goals. Maybe not. My point is that we are all individuals and may not have the same goals. I hope you can acknowledge and understand this.

Point 2: I acknowledge and understand that in a game with such different character levels, the high levels must pull their weight. This can be done successfully in a variety of ways from being the agro stick, using more expendables, or swapping damaging abilities for more support abilities than normal (or vice versa). This does not mean the gm should neverwinter their characters with the purpose of killing them just because of a difference in real life personal gaming goal philosophies... I don't care what justification is used. If such a thing happened, it may very well be the last time I played that game or at the very least that person. I hope you can understand why I say this.

...Dependant on *IF* one of those mods are available at the event you are at. It is also dependant on *IF* those mods haven't been played by any combination of the players beforehand.

EDIT: I just don't understand how a level 6 in a level 7+ mod is unthinkable. But a bunch of level 1's playing tier 4 is accepted and enforced in certain circumstances.

This is my point exaclty. A level 6 is too low, so all 4 players who came to the convention get turned away? Why? What is the benefit and who benefits?

Zestlian,

It's a common problem, which you're facing head-on. Let me take a common sense crack at it, and then suggest how official PFS rules address your concerns.

Case 1:

Zestlian wrote:

So in the case of a Tier 7-11, where there are six characters (one 8th, two 7th, one 6th level, one 5th level, and one 4th level character), what happens? Should the entire table be turned away? Should only the 4th and 5th level characters be turned away?

In this case, the average party level is (8 + 7 + 7 + 6 + 5 + 4 = 37/6 = 6.17. Because there are six PCs, the effective APL ought to be increased to 7.17, which rounds to 7. So, theoretically, common sense might suggest that this party could handle a 7-8 subtier of the scenario. But, realistically, the odds are against the 4th Level PC making it through the adventure alive, let alone contributing a fair share to the party.

It would be better to find a 1-7 adventure and play at the 6-7 subtier.

Officially, only three of the characters could play in the 7-8 subtier anyways. And if the PFS organizers found a Levels 1-7 scenario that the DM was willing to run, the guy with the Level 8 PC wouldn't be allowed to play.

So, in this scenario, are you saying the best move is to...

Yes, yes, we can encourage them to play iconic characters or in the case of the level 8, a new character... We are still kicking their characters.

According to the PFS rules on sub-teirs five of the characters (8, 7, 7, 6, 5) could play in the 7-8 subtier according to the sub-tier rules. They are playing "up" only one sub-tier... From sub-tier 5-6 to 7-8.

Case 2:

Zestlian wrote:

In the case of a Tier 1-5 table, where there are only four characters (two 1st, one 3rd, and one 6th) what happens? Say this is at a convention and there is only a 4 hour time slot. Are you really going to make the 6th level make a new character?

Seriously, yeah, I'd give the player with the 6th Level PC an iconic 1st-Level character, or an opportunity to design a new PC. There's no way that a 6th-Level powerhouse is going to fit in with a pair of fresh-off-the-farm characters.

Or, if this is a convention with a strict time limit, see if there's other tables that can be adjusted. Put the 6th-level guy in with some characters more commensurate with his own powers, and find a lower-level PC to team up with the firsts and third.

And the official PFS rules agree.

Let's say that this scenario ran earlier in the con, these were the only characters this run.

So, in this scenario, are you saying the best move is to...
1. Tell the level 6 character to run an iconic character.
2. Tell the level 6 character to make a 1st level character.
Because what happened was option 3...
3. He said it was within our abilities to let him play as it's been done before, went and played his 4th level 4th edition character instead... Not cool in my opinion, but it is within his rights.

yes, If the math adds up to that tier, but only if it is is only option and the player chooses to play up.

It is all explained very clearly in the pathfinder society rules pgs 24-25.

If it were clear to me, I wouldn't be asking the questions that I am. Please bear with me on this.

Calculating Average Party Level

In order to determine what Tier a mixed-level group of PCs should play, they have to determine something called their APL, or average party level. You should always round this number to the nearest whole value. Most encounters are designed with four players in mind. If there are six or more players at your table, add +1 to your APL. For example, if your group consists of six players, two of which are 4th level and four of which are 5th level, your group’s APL is 6th (28 total levels divided by six players, rounding up, and adding one to the final result). This means your group should play in a sub-Tier appropriate for 6th level, though since you added the +1 from table size, you can play in a sub-Tier appropriate for 5th level as well. We don’t want the above table showing up for a Tier 1–5 scenario, something they’re all the appropriate level for, and being told that they can’t play after their APL calculation. APL is a loose rule for determining your appropriate level of play—it should be followed as often as possible and broken only when following it would oddly bump characters from a scenario (as noted in the example above). Finally, if the APL of a table is in between two sub-Tiers (like APL 3 for a Tier 1–5 scenario), the players may choose to play “up” to sub-Tier 4-5 or play it safe and play sub-Tier 1–2.

Quote:

All of this is meaningless jibber jabber when answering my question. All it talks about is calculating an APL and then fitting the party into a sub-Tier.

The question I have is: Can a 4th level character play a Tier 5-9, sub tier 5-6? Can a 6th level character play a Tier 7-11, sub tier 7-8? Heck, can a 6th level character play in a Tier 1-5, sub tier 4-5? I'd like an official ruling on this please.

Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play wrote:

Calculating Average Party Level

Scenarios and Tiers...

Tiers are a level restriction for play. If a character is level 1, he must always try to play in a Tier 1–2 sub-Tier whenever possible. Rarely, PCs may be allowed to play “up” a Tier if they’re lower level than all of the other players. For example, Bob goes to PaizoCon and finds himself the only level 1 PC at a full table of level 4 PCs in a Tier 1-5 scenario. Normally Bob wouldn't be able to play "up
but he can in this instance because it's the only option for him to play. Players who play "up" need to realize that if they do choose to do so, it comes with significantly increased risks. A player may always refuse to play "up" if that's his only option. A player may only ever play "up" one step - so in Bob's case, he can play "up" to sub-Tier 4-5, but may not play "up" to sub-Teir 6-7 - though these instances should be rare.

In both these paragraphs, the character is only being bumped up one sub-tier, not one tier.

So in the case of a Tier 7-11, where there are six characters (one 8th, two 7th, one 6th level, one 5th level, and one 4th level character), what happens? Should the entire table be turned away? Should only the 4th and 5th level characters be turned away?

In the case of a Tier 1-5 table, where there are only four characters (two 1st, one 3rd, and one 6th) what happens? Say this is at a convention and there is only a 4 hour time slot. Are you really going to make the 6th level make a new character?

Are these examples the reason why there are these pregenerated characters of specific levels? Should we be using those as filler?

Githzilla wrote:

A level 6 character playing a tier 7-8 adventure is not a problem at all. In fact, this is covered in the Guide - see page 24-25.

The only rule I can recall has to do with characters playing below-tier.

The example given is a poor one. One moment it's talking about a 1st level PC playing a Tier 1 - 2 Sub-Tier which is only accessible in a Tier 1 - 5 or Tier 1 - 7 Module... Than playing up to a 4 - 5 sub-Tier which is only accessible in a Tier 1 - 5 Module... And finally not being able playing up to a sub-Tier 6 - 7 which is only accessible in a Tier 1 - 7 Module.

It's doesn't give an example of a 3rd or 4th level character playing a Tier 5 - 9 or a 5th or 6th level character playing a Tier 7 - 11.

So, my understanding of what the current players understanding of this means is that to play a specific Tier, you have to have a character in the level range of the Tier, after that it becomes adjustable as to the Sub-Tier.

Bump. Can a level 4 character play a Tier 5, sub tier 5-6? Can a level 6 character play a Tier 7-11, sub tier 7-8? I'd like an official ruling on this please.

A level 6 character playing a tier 7-8 adventure is not a problem at all. In fact, this is covered in the Guide - see page 24-25.

The only rule I can recall has to do with characters playing below-tier.

The example given is a poor one. One moment it's talking about a 1st level PC playing a Tier 1 - 2 Sub-Tier which is only accessible in a Tier 1 - 5 or Tier 1 - 7 Module... Than playing up to a 4 - 5 sub-Tier which is only accessible in a Tier 1 - 5 Module... And finally not being able playing up to a sub-Tier 6 - 7 which is only accessible in a Tier 1 - 7 Module.

It's doesn't give an example of a 3rd or 4th level character playing a Tier 5 - 9 or a 5th or 6th level character playing a Tier 7 - 11.

So, my understanding of what the current players understanding of this means is that to play a specific Tier, you have to have a character in the level range of the Tier, after that it becomes adjustable as to the Sub-Tier.

I personally am of the belief that unless a player is distruptive, you should never turn a player away. If the table is playing APL 11 and he is level 1, warn him of the dangers and try to be a little nice when attacking. Sure you will drop him a few times, but it will make it more of a challenge for the rest of the group to keep him alive. :)

In the case I mentioned, yes it was before conversion. Effectively I still got an XP and PA for those modules. I don't think that's game breaking... But I do not want to be declared invalid for it either.

Also, we have at least a couple of modules running at Fields of Honor that are 7+. So we're looking to turn away 3 7+ characters because 2 6th level characters are being turned away. Seems kinda lame to me, but I can play the module when we order it locally. The only diffence is that I wouldn't be burning the module for the local club then.

I'm really hoping to hear an official ruling on this. And, yes I know if I play a 6th level character today I am more likely to die than a 7th level character.

I don't know what to do.

Jason

Seraphimpunk wrote:

Joshua J. Frost wrote:

Calculate the party's APL (average party level) and that's the Tier they should play in.

Six level 2 characters are APL 2 and should play Tier 1-2. Six level 3 characters are APL 3 and in a Tier 1-5 scenario, they'd get to choose up or down. Six level 5 characters are APL 5 and should play Tier 4-5.

or can five level 7 characters play mod that maxes out at tier 5?

For official Pathfinder Society OP play, no. They'd need to play a Tier 1-7, Tier 5-9, or Tier 7-11 scenario. If they want to play a Tier 1-5 scenario and they're already past that scenario level-wise, they need to create new level PCs in order to play it.

Okay... My friends got me to start playing on February 2nd, 2009 and all was good. I played modules and had fun with my friends.

After getting 8 modules under my belt, I played Tier 5 of Scenario 16: To Scale the Dragon on June 27th, 2009 as a 3rd level character.

After getting 9 modules under my belt, I played Tier 7 of Scenario 22: Fingerprints of the Fiends also on June 27th as a 4th level character.

Well, today we turned away a player from a module because his character was too low in level. We looked up the rules and after thirty minutes of debate it was concluded that if a module says it is for levels '5 to 9' or '7 to 11', you have to be in that level range.

So, as soon as I got home I tried looking up threads on this particular subject and this seemed to be the closest thread.

Just to verify, do you have to be in that level range?

If I've unknowingly made this mistake already, what can I do to fix it? Should I just tear up those two certs? What happens if I was one of four characters, do I invalidate the table? How can I make this right? HELP!!!

Jason W

P.S. Who should I contact about correcting an error with the modules that have been reported for Zestlian so far?